bawomolo:

You are going to hell if you don't accept jesus christ as your lord and savior?

does Christianity accept other religions as paths to salvation? if not, that's a form of absolutism and should be challenged.

I'm trying hard to understand how the above is your problem? Is the issue that you truly dont believe in God or you're all just disturbed about the fact that many of you are NOT sure if the above is true or not?

See, it is the christian's belief (based on the bible and the words of Christ) that the unbeliever is damned for eternity in hell . . . why are you interested in challenging that? Do not i have a right to my individual belief in what the bible has to say? why is that an issue with you? Are you forced to read the bible?

Why are you interested in forcing christianity to accept other paths to salvation? Can you not also live and let live?

g1:

i know we humans are compelled to think that the universe was designed with us in mind but i do have a good knowledge of cosmology and astronomy and believe you me i dont think it was designed with us in mind, in the words of carl sagan "we live in a pale blue dot in space" it just so happens that a tiny point of this vast universe generated the right conditions to allow life as we know it today to evolve and blossom. outside of this pale blue dot we live in is total chaos in this vast universe that we will never be able to know its size. massive gigatic balls of gas (stars) are constantly exploding, fragments of massive rocks are constantly smashing into each other etc.!!!i guess its another case of two of us looking at the same thing and reaching different conclusions.!!!

well, I for the life of me cannot see how all of this can simply be dismissed as a perfect coincidence of massive, incredible proportions that even every statistical measurement we have now could not make room for the possibility of.

well i dont deny the good things that religion does such as charity but i dont think it is exclusive to religion, i did a lot of charity when i was a muslim and i still do!!! i dont have to believe there is a god giving me heaven points in order for me to give charity rather i do it because i feel the pain of my fellow human being and thus make an effort to relieve him/her of that pain
as for the evil that results from god's free will i just cant see why that much suffering and pain is needed in order for him to prove a point!!

But what point do you think He's trying to prove? He gave us freewill and we went forth and used it for good and evil . . . where's the beef?

i am not angry at god/religion, like i said my worldview just happened to be the way it is!!!any atheist out there will tell you that they didnt chose not to believe, its a gradual process before you finally get to a state of non beleif. and as for me i find peace, happiness and humilty in my personal state of non belief!

i know how you feel sis, when i used to be a believer i used to feel pity and sad for atheists too!! and i used to pray for them!! i used to ask myself how come they cant feel the beauty of belief in god
when a friend of mine found out i was an atheist she was almost in tears telling me that she will pray for me and that i should please give god a chance because she cant live with the thought of me in hell, in order not for me to cause her more emotional pain i had to later lie that i have gone back to believing in god.

Like i said for me i have reached a point of no return. i just cant see myself believing again. I am comfortable with my position as a non believer and I am ready for the consequences if there are any!!!

Well, I have no response to this other than . No one has ever reached a point where it was impossible to return to faith.

bawomolo:

You are going to hell if you don't accept jesus christ as your lord and savior?

does Christianity accept other religions as paths to salvation? if not, that's a form of absolutism and should be challenged.

davidylan:

I'm trying hard to understand how the above is your problem? Is the issue that you truly dont believe in God or you're all just disturbed about the fact that many of you are NOT sure if the above is true or not?

See, it is the christian's belief (based on the bible and the words of Christ) that the unbeliever is damned for eternity in hell . . . why are you interested in challenging that? Do not i have a right to my individual belief in what the bible has to say? why is that an issue with you? Are you forced to read the bible?

Why are you interested in forcing christianity to accept other paths to salvation? Can you not also live and let live?

Gbam left, right and center.

That is the very point I have been challenging the poster with since my first post here. Why does what I believe have to be challenged when it doesn't affect anyone else?


Bawo, "absolutism" in my beliefr system as long as it doesn't negatively affect anyone else other than me is my own business!

JeSoul:

  well, I for the life of me cannot see how all of this can simply be dismissed as a perfect coincidence of massive, incredible proportions that even every statistical measurement we have now could not make room for the possibility of.

well if you cant, i definately can see it happening, i think sometimes reality is just too unbelievable at times for some to accept

JeSoul:

Well, I have no response to this other than  . No one has ever reached a point where it was impossible to return to faith.

Jesoul trust me i have been through identical discussions with christians and muslims before, the fact is we will never agree on somethings, with i being an atheist and you being a theist we will always look at things from two differnt angles.
so i guess we agree to disagree

i wish you christians and muslims a pleasant and happy life with your jesus and mohammed!!!
as for me am good without them.

its alwaya nice having a decent conversation with you without us insulting and blasting each other, wish all theists were like you. You come across as a very humble person

g1:

well if you cant, i definately can see it happening, i think sometimes reality is just too unbelievable at times for some to accept

Quite funny.
Its ok that "reality" (whatever that is) is unbelievable but its sacrilegious that God can dare to exist. The confusion in the ranks of atheism is truly a joke.

davidylan:

Quite funny.
Its ok that "reality" (whatever that is) is unbelievable but[b] its sacrilegious that God[/b] can dare to exist. The confusion in the ranks of atheism is truly a joke.

i dont see where i said it is sacrilegiuos that people believe god exists. talking about confusion in ones ranks this is coming from one with a religion of a million and one branches, from anglican to catholic, from evangelical to protestant my friend you are the one who must be joking

Should Religious Dogma Be Free From Criticism? NO. . . .All reliogions rely ONLY on demonizing the beliefs or unbeliefs of those that do not subcribe to their mythical tales for survival. . . .So why should religious dogma that are based on nothing but mythology be free from criticism?

davidylan:

I'm trying hard to understand how the above is your problem? Is the issue that you truly dont believe in God or you're all just disturbed about the fact that many of you are NOT sure if the above is true or not?

See, it is the christian's belief (based on the bible and the words of Christ) that the unbeliever is damned for eternity in hell . . . why are you interested in challenging that? Do not i have a right to my individual belief in what the bible has to say? why is that an issue with you? Are you forced to read the bible?

Why are you interested in forcing christianity to accept other paths to salvation? Can you not also live and let live?

You have a right to make that claim but i also have a right to challenge that claim.free world isn't it?

 Bawo, "absolutism" in my beliefr system as long as it doesn't negatively affect anyone else other than me is my own business!

such absolutism has led to witch being burnt at the stake etc so yeah absolutism can indeed lead to negative consequences then it becomes everyone's business.  Christian views on issues such as homosexuality and abortion are indeed our business.  that would be moot if you are a believer in separation of church and state of course.

g1:

well if you cant, i definately can see it happening, i think sometimes reality is just too unbelievable at times for some to accept

You familiar with Occam's razor? states that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one?

That no statistical model makes every the slightest of room for the massive coincidence that is the earth and the universe - points to the simplest explanation, that it is not a coincidence.

What say ye?

its alwaya nice having a decent conversation with you without us insulting and blasting each other, wish all theists were like you. You come across as a very humble person

No problem and thank you too for being kind enough to indulge my interrogation

That no statistical model makes every the slightest of room for the massive coincidence that is the earth and the universe - points to the simplest explanation, that it is not a coincidence.

you do realize this isn't a proof right?

bawomolo:

You have a right to make that claim but i also have a right to challenge that claim.free world isn't it?

 Free world it certainly is.

 But to make the claim your challenge is justified or stems from honest or noble motives falls flat. I repeat a quote I made earlier

JeSoul:
What I question are the incessant, relentless attacks on religion from bored antagonists borne soley out of spite and a false sense of superiority, for the sole purpose of mocking and ridiculing beliefs they personally consider outlandish, directed at a harmless set of people who are minding their own business and contributing to their societies. In which case, I say leave them with their holy books. Live and let live.

such absolutism has led to witch being burnt at the stake etc so yeah absolutism can indeed lead to negative consequences then it becomes everyone's business.  Christian views on issues such as homosexuality and abortion are indeed our business.  that would be moot if you are a believer in separation of church and state of couse.

And I have consistently said this:

JeSoul:
 Bawo, "absolutism" in my belief system as long as it doesn't negatively affect anyone else other than me is my own business!

Christian views on homosex and abortion do not affect anyone else but christians. It is not by force to be a christian. Anyone who doesn't like what the bible says is free to choose another faith. You cannot force a faith to bend to your own predilections and then claim persecution. Go somewhere else if you don't like it.

bawomolo:

you do realize this isn't a proof right?

Because the statistics simply cannot handle it. Do you realize how incredibly complex and delicate the earth and universe is? All the perfect coincidences that would've had to occur - in the right sequence - in the right amounts - at the right times - and to the right degrees - for the earth to have been created? and then repeat that sequence mutiplied for nature and animals, then repeat that sequence for man to have appeared and evolved to the complex creature he is now?

  What model can any mathematician build to accomodate efficiently all those variables? none.

But what is the motive and usefulness of critisizing a belief that affects no one but the individual in question?

This is FALSE, do believers think that their beliefs affect no one but them? The answer is NO. . . .Believers do not behave or even agree that their beliefs affect them alone, they are CONSTANTLY trying to spread their myths around and push it down the faces of others. . . .Believers are ALWAYS castigating somebody while pushing or promoting their various myths. . . . .

If I believe Mary was a virgin when she had Jesus, of what impact does that have on anyone but me? Especially if I am a contributing, functioning member of society, why the need to assault what I believe just because you disagree with it?

This is a false statement because Christianity does not only teach people that mary was a virgin, it teaches people to spread that message and teaches them to demonize those that do not accepty the narrative, the Christians do what the religion teaches them, Their religion teches them to condemn those that do not believe in it and tell them that they are immoral savages just because of their unbelief . . . .I think this ties into one of the reasons they're so quick to assume atheists are all immoral savages the religion teaches them that they are degenerate animals when these is been told over and over and over and over again throughout their lives that those that do not subcribe to their belief systems are walking embodiments of lust, violence, jealousy, anger, sin, etc believers spend their lives living under the weight of that twisted and ridiculous accusation and that always results in the anger they display towards those of us that tell them that we do not accept their stories. . . . .If only those that believe will keep their beliefs to themselves them I believe we will all be happy. . . .

Also I don't understand why the word "dogma" has befallen such a fate that it is viewed almost always negatively. Dogma is simply a set of beliefs - usually ones that prescribe attitudes towards moral living. Where's the beef?

The problem with religious dogma is that it every religious dogma puts itself above all other beliefs and claims it is the ultimate true knowledge when it does not even know what it is talking about. . . . .Do religious people go around behaving as if their dogma supercedes everything? YES. . . . .Do they keep their various beliefs to themselves? NO. . . .

Christian views on homosex and abortion do not affect anyone else but christians. It is not by force to be a christian.

you and I know this isn't true.   The southern bible belt is one of the harshest states when it comes to gay right for a reason.  the Vatican has placed pressure on latin american countries on the issue of gay rights.   Christian views do affect for those who do not believe in separation of church and state.  

Anyone who doesn't like what the bible says is free to choose another faith. You cannot force a faith to bend to your own predilections and then claim persecution. Go somewhere else if you don't like it.

I agree but isn't this kind of a support of sharia law.  Hey if you don't like sharia then don't come to zamfara or katsina right?   I hope you are beginning to see how dogma's can lead to hostile behavior (take it or leave it)?

All the perfect coincidences that would've had to occur - in the right sequence - in the right amounts - at the right times

what perfect coincidences? have you heard of something called chaos theory?
such concepts do not seem like perfect coincidences.  man hasn't even roamed a significant portion of the universe to claim its perfect.   Teutonic plates shifting, stars dying, planetary bodies colliding aren't signs of "perfect" coincidences.  One can argue the universe is constantly realigning itself (usually violently as seen in haiti).   doesn't seem like perfection to me.

  What model can any mathematician build to accomodate efficiently all those variables? none.

because the universe is chaotic and boundless? there is nothing like a steady state model for the universe.   That doesn't mean we should argue some bearded white dude in the sky did it.  This is where my issue with absolutist views come from.    You begin to make absolutist claims on assumptions (eg - the universe is perfect?) and this should rightfully be criticized.

JeSoul:

    You familiar with Occam's razor? states that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one?

That no statistical model makes every the slightest of room for the massive coincidence that is the earth and the universe - points to the simplest explanation, that it is not a coincidence.
   

oh please the same old argument from irreducible complexity!!!
lets say i am about to roll about 25 dice, what are the odds of me getting sixes on about 80% of them? you would say highly unlikely, but that does not mean it cant happen
and if it happens the fact that it will be highly improbably for it to happen again does not deny the fact that it did happen.
in our volatile and ever expanding universe it just so happens that earth happened to end up in the position it is today after the big bang. The earth's position, size and components just happened to be conducive for it to allow life as we know it today to blossom. and the other planets unfortunately happened to have ended up in the wrong position, (as far as they are concerned they ended up in a good position)
and what perfect design are you talking about? birth defects, conjoined twins, volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes, fragile survival machines(human bodies) that are nothing more than gene transporting mediums etc!!! you call these perfect design? if anything this proves a very bad designer (god) not one who seems to know what he is doing

JeSoul:

   
No problem and thank you too for being kind enough to indulge my interrogation 

you are always welcome sis

Mazaje I am coming

bawomolo:

you and I know this isn't true.   The southern bible belt is one of the harshest states when it comes to gay right for a reason.  the Vatican has placed pressure on latin american countries on the issue of gay rights.   Christian views do affect for those who do not believe in separation of church and state.

  The people of a state have a right to determine what kind of society they want to live in - that is what democracy is all about. They can move up here to massachusetts, we're very accomodating. As for the Vatican, ask me not, I bother myself little with their activities.
   

I agree but isn't this kind of a support of sharia law.  Hey if you don't like sharia then don't come to zamfara or katsina right?   I hope you are beginning to see how dogma's can lead to hostile behavior (take it or leave it)?

   And that's fine with me. Why would anyone willing go to an area full of misguided religious zealots that want to harm you?  That's why I have previously recognized that religionists overstep their boundaries atimes leading to violent behavior that has no place in a civilized society.

what perfect coincidences? have you heard of something called chaos theory?
such concepts do not seem like perfect coincidences.  man hasn't even roamed a significant portion of the universe to claim its perfect.   Teutonic plates shifting, stars dying, planetary bodies colliding aren't signs of "perfect" coincidences.  One can argue the universe is constantly realigning itself (usually violently as seen in haiti).   doesn't seem like perfection to me.

Well, lets not go down this often charted path. This arguement didn't begin today and will not end today.

because the universe is chaotic and boundless? there is nothing like a steady state model for the universe.   That doesn't mean we should argue some bearded white dude in the sky did it.  This is where my issue with absolutist views come from.    You begin to make absolutist claims on assumptions (eg - the universe is perfect?) and this should rightfully be criticized.

But my "absolutist claims" are of no consequence to anyone but myself! what damage does my belief "God did it" have on anyone else? eh? again where is the beef?

g1:

oh please the same old argument from irreducible complexity!!!
lets say i am about to roll about 25 dice, what are the odds of me getting sixes on about 80% of them? you would say highly unlikely, but that does not mean it cant happen
and if it happens the fact that it will be highly improbably for it to happen again does not deny the fact that it did happen.
in our volatile and ever expanding universe it just so happens that earth happened to end up in the position it is today after the big bang. The earth's position, size and components just happened to be conducive for it to allow life to blossom. and the other planets unfortunately happened to have ended up in the wrong position, (as far as they are concerned they ended up in a good position)
and what perfect design are you talking about? birth defects, conjoined twins, volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes, fragile survival machines(human bodies) that are nothing more than gene transporting mediums etc!!! you call these perfect design? if anything this proves a very bad designer (god) not one who seems to know what he is doing

you are always welcome sis

lol . . . men I don't want to do "creation vs. evolution" but G1, you do realize the "Big bang" is still just a theory? and you accepting it as truth places you firmly in the category as those operating by "faith"?

JeSoul:

lol . . . men I don't want to do "creation vs. evolution" but G1, you do realize the "Big bang" is still just a theory? and you accepting it as truth places you firmly in the category as those operating by "faith"?

LMAO just a theory? where have i heard that before? it definately has more evidence supporting it than the idea that a cosmic space daddy magically puffed us into being

mazaje:

This is FALSE, do believers think that their beliefs affect no one but them? The answer is NO. . . .Believers do not behave or even agree that their beliefs affect them alone, they are CONSTANTLY trying to spread their myths around and push it down the faces of others. . . .Believers are ALWAYS castigating somebody while pushing or promoting their various myths. . . . .

I have already conceded since my first post here I think that yes some religionists do affect others many times so . . . have I ever tried to shove anything down your throat?

This is a false statement because Christianity does not only teach people that mary was a virgin, it teaches people to spread that message and teaches them to demonize those that do not accepty the narrative and those that accept, the Christian narrative do what the religion teaches them, Their religion teches them to condemn those that do not believe in it and tell them that they are immoral saveges just because of their unbelief . . . .I think this ties into one of the reasons they're so quick to assume atheists are all immoral savages the religion teaches them that they are degenerate animals when these is been told over and over and over and over again throughout their lives that those that do not subcribe to their belief systems are walking embodiments of lust, violence, jealousy, anger, sin, etc believers spend their lives living under the weight of that twisted and ridiculous accusation and that always results in the anger they display towards those of us that tell them that we do not accept their stories. . . . .If only those that believe will keep their beliefs to themselves them I believe we will all be happy. . . .


The problem with religious dogma is that it every religious dogma puts itself above all other beliefs and claims it is the ultimate true knowledge when it does not even know what it is talking about. . . . .Do religious people go around behaving as if their dogma supercedes everything? YES. . . . .Do they keep their various beliefs to themselves? NO. . . .

At first blush I was going to respond fully, then I remembered that it wouldn't make much a difference considering it is my very cool dude Mazaje on the other side. My brotha, issall good, your points have been taken with sincerity, really.

g1:

LMAO just a theory? where have i heard that before? it definately has more evidence supporting it than the idea that a cosmic space daddy magically puffed us into being

Cosmic space daddy or not, as long as you realize you and I are both accepting an explanation based on faith. Whether or not yours has more "plausibility" is of little import. You cannot prove something you've accepted - that is faith my G, faith 

JeSoul:

Cosmic space daddy or not, as long as you realize you and I are both accepting an explanation based on faith. Whether or not yours has more "plausibility" is of little import. You cannot prove something you've accepted - that is faith my G, faith 

YES MA

and here we go with the unending circus again. simply recycling the same battered arguments.

mazaje:

Should Religious Dogma Be Free From Criticism? NO. . . .All reliogions rely ONLY on demonizing the beliefs or unbeliefs of those that do not subcribe to their mythical tales for survival. . . .So why should religious dogma that are based on nothing but mythology be free from criticism?

. . . and simply recycling stereotypic falsehood deliberately put forward to justify irrational hate for christianity (often falsely masqueraded as "religions".

bawomolo:

You have a right to make that claim but i also have a right to challenge that claim. free world isn't it?

so do i have the right to challenge what goes on in the sanctity of your private home? The comments here are just incredulous.

^^lol. See! I knew you had it in you all along . . .  

JeSoul:

^^lol. See! I knew you had it in you all along . . .  

okay if you say so!! we will live to see if you are right that i have god in me!!!! but like i said before i dont think so

davidylan:

and here we go with the unending circus again. simply recycling the same battered arguments.

. . . and simply recycling stereotypic falsehood deliberately put forward to justify irrational hate for christianity (often falsely masqueraded as "religions".

so do i have the right to challenge what goes on in the sanctity of your private home? The comments here are just incredulous.

since when were those claims private? I guess evangelism is done in private and never in public.

and yes you do have right to challenge what goes on in my private home. If i was molesting someone in my home, won't it be right for the community to get involved?

bawomolo:

since when were those claims private? I guess evangelism is done in private and never in public.

and yes you do have right to challenge what goes on in my private home. If i was molesting someone in my home, won't it be right for the community to get involved?

No i dont have a right to challenge what goes on in your bedroom, its against the law . . . even the police need an officially authorised warrant from a judge to search your house. Stop lying to justify a non-existent point.

Your analogy is itself flawed . . . you claim i have a right to search your bedroom "if you were molesting someone in your home" . . . it makes little sense in the context of this thread . . .

- your victim would have to report you for me to make any judgement about what was going on in your room

Now relate that to my private beliefs . . . am i molesting someone by reading my bible in the privacy of my room? NO!
Do you have a right to challenge that? NO! Not unless you have an inherent fear of the afterlife that you mask by virulently attacking those who choose to believe the bible.

Evangelism is done in public . . . but you are never forced to stay back and listen.

JeSoul:

As for the Vatican, ask me not, I bother myself little with their activities.

so you do agree some religious people do try to influence of others?

      And that's fine with me. Why would anyone willing go to an area full of misguided religious zealots that want to harm you?  That's why I have previously recognized that religionists overstep their boundaries atimes leading to violent behavior that has no place in a civilized society.

but what if i was born and raised in zamfara, must i live?   isn't that basically segregation.

But my "absolutist claims" are of no consequence to anyone but myself! what damage does my belief "God did it" have on anyone else? eh? again where is the beef?

there is no beef but you shouldn't be surprised when your claims are met with counter-claims.

Evangelism is done in public . . . but you are never forced to stay back and listen.

but what if i choose to for the fun of it? that's the point of free speech.

Do you have a right to challenge that? NO! Not unless you have an inherent fear of the afterlife that you mask by virulently attacking those who choose to believe the bible.

so is your argument that religious dogma shouldn't be challenged? does that include islamic dogma? do you have an inherent fear of islam?

bawomolo:

so you do agree some religious people do try to influence of others?

Oga, I have said so since my first post on this thread now?    those who strap bombs, those who murder abortion doctors etc do so under some misguided twisted dedication to their "religion".

but what if i was born and raised in zamfara, must i live?   isn't that basically segregation.

If you find yourself in a society intolerant or unwelcoming of your lifestyle, you should most definitely seek for greener pastures. It isn't "segregation". The people of Zam have decided how they want to live, anyone in the minority and disagrees can relocate - this happens everywhere all the time. Sanfranciso anyone?

there is no beef but you shouldn't be surprised when your claims are met with counter-claims.

Hey, free world you said right? lol. As long as the soul is not under a self-induced spell they are "noble" or "justified" in their attacking of others beliefs simply because they don't agree with them.

---

g1:

okay if you say so!! we will live to see if you are right that i have god in me!!!! but like i said before i dont think so

We will. Till then, never say never 

davidylan:

and here we go with the unending circus again. simply recycling the same battered arguments.

. . . and simply recycling stereotypic falsehood deliberately put forward to justify irrational hate for christianity (often falsely masqueraded as "religions".

Same old, same old. . . . .What are the "falsehoods"?. . . .Does the religion you subscribe to depend on demonizing other religions for survival? YES. . . .So what exactly is the "falsehood"?. . . . . . . .By the way no body "hates" Christianty, I know you are completely deluded and wired in a way that makes you think that any body that disagrees with your mythical beliefs either hates you, or hates your mythical beliefs but, hey keep on keeping on. . . . .

so do i have the right to challenge what goes on in the sanctity of your private home? The comments here are just incredulous.

Do you and your brothers/sisters keep your beliefs locked up in the privacy of your bedrooms? NO. . . .

Last time I checked, atheists in the Soviet Union, China, North Korea and the rest have massacred more people in the 20th century in pursuit of their rather secular beliefs than Christians and even Muslims have managed in the same century.

@tpia

Which of my claims?

4 Play:

Last time I checked, atheists in the Soviet Union, China, North Korea and the rest have massacred more people in the 20th century in pursuit of their rather secular beliefs than Christians and even Muslims have managed in the same century.

You have mentioned totalitarian regimes which of course encourages killings and in wars even civil wars/revolutions, people do die. What secular beliefs were being pursued because you seem to imply this as being the cause of the deaths.
One thing to be noted is that those deaths did not occur because their governments were trying to spread atheism.

thehomer:

One thing to be noted is that those deaths did not occur because their governments were trying to spread atheism.

wrong again.

Professing any form of religion was a crime and outlawed by the state.

thehomer:

@tpia

Which of my claims?

This has already been done. We have cartoons and caricatures of politicians, scientists etc. Their merits and demerits discussed openly

your claims about darwin, marx, etc being discussed freely here.

use the search function to see your fellow atheists in action.