DMerciful:
How does something that was not existing hitherto take advantage of a unique condition. Wait until lifeforms are discovered in other planets then u'll know earth is not unique. If you know how complex the human brain is and the 100 enzymes a yeast molecule can produce u'll know it can't be chance. Can't you see the intelligent designs? A trillion years cannot produce this designs by chance

we evolved to take advantage of the favorable conditions. Irreducible complexity has been disproved over and over again. Also, the complexity of life around us is not by CHANCE. its by NATURAL SELECTION, which is as fine a designer as any process.

gabe:
we evolved to take advantage of the favorable conditions. Irreducible complexity has been disproved over and over again. Also, the complexity of life around us is not by CHANCE. its by NATURAL SELECTION, which is as fine a designer as any process.

"NATURAL" selection

Not "SUPERNATURAL " decision forcing the NATURAL to respond intelligently.

Nature has no mind, no decision, no thought, no plan, no intelligence, NOTHING.

Nature is simply a process which AN INTELLIGENT CAUSE triggered it's intelligent effect.

Read this comment over and over again.

You are just being unappreciative of your existence

gabe:
we evolved to take advantage of the favorable conditions. Irreducible complexity has been disproved over and over again. Also, the complexity of life around us is not by CHANCE. its by NATURAL SELECTION, which is as fine a designer as any process.

gabe:
we evolved to take advantage of the favorable conditions. Irreducible complexity has been disproved over and over again. Also, the complexity of life around us is not by CHANCE. its by NATURAL SELECTION, which is as fine a designer as any process.

Natural selection? So what is the nature in your natural selection? And what made the natural selection select human being and leave monkeys to remain primates? Why have we not been able to see any form of life in the process of transformation from either fish to bird or from cat to tiger?

butterflylion:


This is extremely laughable

The machines used for checking or measuring time are simply what they are. THEY CHECK AND MEASURE TIME AND DID NOT CREATE TIME.

For anyone to build a machine to check anything or measure anything it means that thing was there before the machine was built.

Let me give you a very small history.

In ancient times man developed ways of keeping or measuring time and some were

1. Sundial

2. Moondial

3. Obelisk

4. Water clock

5. Incense clock

6. Time ball

Etc

All these methods were used to measure time and in the case of the sundial they made use of the movement of the sun to keep track of time and this is how we know that when the sun is over our head it's noon day. The watches and clocks we have today work with the same principle but with the addition of seconds, minutes and hours for sake of precision.

However when your watch says 12 o'clock and you look at the sun, you will see it is over your head.

Time has always been there. We simply learnt how to measure it. We did not cause time to exist. It existed before us. We simply began measuring it for our own benefit.

Stop arguing and get this as simply as I have illustrated. Time is not your slave, you are a slave to time. Time is your master while you simply learned how to live with this master.

The only valued statement u made that is connected to what we are discussing is this
"For anyone to build a machine to check anything or measure anything it means that thing was there before the machine was built."
If you are able to think critically u will understand that this is not to be compared with time cos you can only measure what you see
listing equipments for time checking and telling me how it's being checked which I already knew doesn't connect with what we discussing
I quite agree with you there are things that can't be proven nor disproven, I think the only way you can understand what i'm saying is moving your brain to different level entirely,
It's easy and rightfully to think that time exist.

obinna58:

The only valued statement u made that is connected to what we are discussing is this
"For anyone to build a machine to check anything or measure anything it means that thing was there before the machine was built."
If you are able to think critically u will understand that this is not to be compared with time cos you can only measure what you see
listing equipments for time checking and telling me how it's being checked which I already knew doesn't connect with what we discussing
I quite agree with you there are things that can't be proven nor disproven, I think the only way you can understand what i'm saying is moving your brain to different level entirely,
It's easy and rightfully to think that time exist.

I wonder how all I wrote had nothing to do with your discussion when you have been saying that man invented time and without the tools for measuring time then time does not exist.

Time existed before we began measuring it. As long as the earth rotates and revolves around the sun, time exists! As long as this effect causes the sun to rise and set, time exists! As long as the moon and sun exist, time exists!

My brain is already on a higher level which is why I have been repeatedly telling you that time existed before man and man simply learnt how to measure it to their benefit and this made man a slave to time. You on the other hand has been saying that man invented time.

I think you need to bring your brain up to where mine is.

obinna58:

The only valued statement u made that is connected to what we are discussing is this
"For anyone to build a machine to check anything or measure anything it means that thing was there before the machine was built."
If you are able to think critically u will understand that this is not to be compared with time cos you can only measure what you see
listing equipments for time checking and telling me how it's being checked which I already knew doesn't connect with what we discussing
I quite agree with you there are things that can't be proven nor disproven, I think the only way you can understand what i'm saying is moving your brain to different level entirely,
It's easy and rightfully to think that time exist.

Oga Obinna wait a minute did I see you write about measuring what you see? Have you seen time before? What does it look like? A male or female? Chubby or skinny? Living or nonliving? Animate or inanimate? Liquid or gas? Please stop this nonsense. The fact that somebody discovered something recently does not imply that things never existed. Electricity has been since creation humanity discovered it lately. Can you tell me the human created radio wave? Guy abeg stop please stop. Haha !

rhektor:



Oga Obinna wait a minute did I see you write about measuring what you see? Have you seen time before? What does it look like? A male or female? Chubby or skinny? Living or nonliving? Animate or inanimate? Liquid or gas? Please stop this nonsense. The fact that somebody discovered something recently does not imply that things never existed. Electricity has been since creation humanity discovered it lately. Can you tell me the human created radio wave? Guy abeg stop please stop. Haha !

You question goes to the guy who said that For anyone to build a machine to check anything or measure anything it means that thing was there before the machine was built, Perhaps u might need to read my post again

butterflylion:


"NATURAL" selection

Not "SUPERNATURAL " decision forcing the NATURAL to respond intelligently.

Nature has no mind, no decision, no thought, no plan, no intelligence, NOTHING.

Nature is simply a process which AN INTELLIGENT CAUSE triggered it's intelligent effect.


Read this comment over and over again.

Even if it looks obvious, intelligent design has been disproved over and over again. I'll suggest you google and read up on natural selection. It doesn't imply some intelligence at work. Its just the process in which an organism develops/adapts features to better survive in its environment. Google to see its proofs and processes

gabe:

Even if it looks obvious, intelligent design has been disproved over and over again. I'll suggest you google and read up on natural selection. It doesn't imply some intelligence at work. Its just the process in which an organism develops/adapts features to better survive in its environment. Google to see its proofs and processes

I know all about natural selection and even you are simply deceiving yourself with that because your very first comment says "even if it (intelligent design) looks obvious.

WHY SHOULD IT BE SO OBVIOUS?

what science does is look at the beginning and claim Natural selection but they refuse to look at the end design.

When you first look at the end design you would NEVER FAIL to see the OBVIOUS INTELLIGENCE which is behind the beginning.

So much harmony in diversity.

The sun is not the moon and is not the plants and is not the waters and is not the air and is not the soil and is not the insects and is not the birds and is not the worms and is not man etc BUT SOMEHOW THEY ALL HAVE HARMONY IN ALL THE DIVERSITY.

The beginning may look chaotic but that's how we see it but a truly intelligent person would see the effect of this chaos on every level and in every occasion and ask how come this chaotic beginning ALWAYS ENDS IN ORDER?

this means the "chaos" was deliberate and is not chaos to the one who intelligently caused it to be so.

rhektor:


Natural selection? So what is the nature in your natural selection? And what made the natural selection select human being and leave monkeys to remain primates? Why have we not been able to see any form of life in the process of transformation from either fish to bird or from cat to tiger?

read up on evolution.

gabe:
we evolved to take advantage of the favorable conditions. Irreducible complexity has been disproved over and over again. Also, the complexity of life around us is not by CHANCE. its by NATURAL SELECTION, which is as fine a designer as any process.

NATURAL SELECTION is Just explanation and not practicable hence is falsehood

butterflylion:



I know all about natural selection and even you are simply deceiving yourself with that because your very first comment says "even if it (intelligent design) looks obvious.

WHY SHOULD IT BE SO OBVIOUS?

what science does is look at the beginning and claim Natural selection but they refuse to look at the end design.

When you first look at the end design you would NEVER FAIL to see the OBVIOUS INTELLIGENCE which is behind the beginning.

So much harmony in diversity.

The sun is not the moon and is not the plants and is not the waters and is not the air and is not the soil and is not the insects and is not the birds and is not the worms and is not man etc BUT SOMEHOW THEY ALL HAVE HARMONY IN ALL THE DIVERSITY.

The beginning may look chaotic but that's how we see it but a truly intelligent person would see the effect of this chaos on every level and in every occasion and ask how come this chaotic beginning ALWAYS ENDS IN ORDER?

this means the "chaos" was deliberate and is not chaos to the one who intelligently caused it to be so.

Thanks you for this. Many of them keep telling us to go and read evolution as if internet is expensive, articles are not free.
Thank God for internet, they keep spewing out lies line by line and we keep tab in them bit by bit

Bump

Bump why

lordm:
Not all questions are meant to be answered,

True

Bump for the doubter

Beautiful piece here,I must say.A wonderful blend of science ,existentialism and unfortunately religion.To clarify terms ,an atheist is not someone who does not believe in god...rather ,someone who dismiss the claims that deities or a deity exist,essential due to lack of evidence.
The question -who created god ,is in no way or form invalid.It is because of questions and wonders like this that we have religion,science and philosophy in the first place.

The concept of one god(monotheism) has evolved over time,from primordial polytheism .The description of god(YAHWEH) by Judaism as an eternal ,omnipotent ,timeless being, who is not bound by laws of space or anything at all is the best there is...however the same Judaism ascribe other attributes to the same god that are overly contradictory.i.e that god is good(when god is not good then he works in mysterious ways) ,favors one tribe over another(Jewish Israelis over Palestine- Christians) ,support wars and violence,unleashes plagues and disasters ,established what is moral and immoral, created heaven and earth in six days,gave dominion to human species(we will have gone extinct in the times of dinosaurs/even now, micro-organisms can wipe us all out),created Adam and Eve less than 10k years ago(the human specie is evidently older than that with millions of years),dislikes homosexuals(arguably he created them),wiped the earth by flood(and saved Noah) etc.

This is where atheism stands,against man made religion claiming to know the nature of god and what god wants us to do.This is were the argument is(epistemology). We do not have a problem with deism. WE WANT TO KNOW THINGS THROUGH LOGICAL OBSERVATION AND EVIDENCE,NOT THROUGH FAULTY ,ILLOGICAL REVELATION WHICH ARE SUBJECT TO DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS.

Religion started when the first conman met the first fool-Mark Twain

eventtinz:
Beautiful piece here,I must say.A wonderful blend of science ,existentialism and unfortunately religion.To clarify terms ,an atheist is not someone who does not believe in god...rather ,someone who dismiss the claims that deities or a deity exist,essential due to lack of evidence.
The question -who created god ,is in no way or form invalid.It is because of questions and wonders like this that we have religion,science and philosophy in the first place.

The concept of one god(monotheism) has evolved over time,from primordial polytheism .The description of god(YAHWEH) by Judaism as an eternal ,omnipotent ,timeless being, who is not bound by laws of space or anything at all is the best there is...however the same Judaism ascribe other attributes to the same god that are overly contradictory.i.e that god is good(when god is not good then he works in mysterious ways) ,favors one tribe over another(Jewish Israelis over Palestine- Christians) ,support wars and violence,unleashes plagues and disasters ,established what is moral and immoral, created heaven and earth in six days,gave dominion to human species(we will have gone extinct in the times of dinosaurs/even now, micro-organisms can wipe us all out),created Adam and Eve less than 10k years ago(the human specie is evidently older than that with millions of years),dislikes homosexuals(arguably he created them),wiped the earth by flood(and saved Noah) etc.

This is where atheism stands,against man made religion claiming to know the nature of god and what god wants us to do.This is were the argument is(epistemology). We do not have a problem with deism. WE WANT TO KNOW THINGS THROUGH LOGICAL OBSERVATION AND EVIDENCE,NOT THROUGH FAULTY ,ILLOGICAL REVELATION WHICH ARE SUBJECT TO DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS.

Religion started when the first conman met the first fool-Mark Twain

What I underlined is the definition of agnostic not atheism. While Agnostic stand in the middle or given room for doubt on either side, atheism did in all totality reject the concept that God could ever exist at the same time reject other people's opinion of God, even scientists build on others work or opinion.

Since atheist rejects God concept, there is no point in trying anything THROUGH LOGICAL OBSERVATION AND EVIDENCE. Tying to do so makes you an agnostic, with doubt that God could exist.

Immorttal:
My question still is: if everything was created including varied life forms and the universe itself, and was supposedly created by God, then Who created God

Lol, humans created God to explain the unexplainable.
They say God created us in his image, but I say, humans create God in 'man's' image

NPComplete:
The first problem is assuming God has always existed. There's no proof for God always existing other than some verses in the bible. And we all know the bible has never been an impeccable source of information.
So that assumption is an argument from dogma.

Secondly if we are to believe that God has always existed, why is it hard to believe the universe has always existed in whatever form before it became the form we know of it now. Maybe this form we know of it is just our mental projection. And since our brains can't see beyond 3 spatial dimensions, it is plausible that our understanding of space time is skewed and limited. The universe may also be eternal for all we know. Perhaps the universe is God.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with God Himself having a creator. I can live with it. And I imagine it is possible we also become creators ourselves after we leave this life. It might just be that that's the essence of life. Life birthing more life. Creators creating and getting created. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

So if I get you right, you're saying that the universe is the original or the first creator?

Then who created the universe? or is the universe also self existing?

Good read

Lol, God of the Gaps theory with plenty english. We know how that ends

nice write up