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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Moral Argument (2328 Views)
Morality Demands A Moral Law Giver / Atheists Are More "Moral" Than Christians/muslims (the Evidence). Do You Accept? / The Pink Unicorn Argument Against Religion (2) (3) (4)
Moral Argument by mazaje(m): 4:20pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
Why do theist believe that they are more moral than non theist? Is there ANY evidence to show that human's get their morals from any deity?. . . .I say this because theist keep deluding themselves into thinking that they have some moral superiority above non theist. They have this deluded and ridiculous belief that atheism = evil and that being religious= being a good person. I have my reasons for their behaviour but I just want to listen to the opinions of others. . . . . . . |
Re: Moral Argument by MyJoe: 4:38pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
Hello mazaje. Trust you are doing great. It can be argued that the fact that religious people are not necessarily more moral than the non-religious, including atheists, is paradoxical. Religions are supposed to be fountains from which spring moral instructions, hence the plainly misguided view that atheists who are perceived to be groping in the dark, as they lack this source of moral instruction, are necessarily immoral. The present situation in the word can be seen as an indictment, either of religious people or the religions of themselves. |
Re: Moral Argument by viaro: 4:44pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
Hello mazaje, . . how's life treating you? mazaje: Don't you think that the atheist who thinks others are deluding themselves is himself actually showing his morality? What is morality anyway? How does your morality spring from anything other than atheism? The way I see it, it does not take a particular worldview to say that others are deluded. Both theists and atheists continue to trade this kind of comments against one another - and at the end of the day, the real issues are not actually looked at. I think everyone is just trying to give his or her position a soothing balm when they slag off others as deluded or ridiculous (and yes, I have seen quite a lot of atheists congratulating themselves on the notion that they are smarter, brighter, better, etc., while theists in their view are all deluded and ridiculous - or even worse). The party never ends. |
Re: Moral Argument by JeSoul(f): 4:46pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
mazaje:Hey Maz. There. I've fixed your post for you. Now you're 100% right. You'll be receiving a bill in the mail. |
Re: Moral Argument by mazaje(m): 4:58pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
viaro: Life is treating me good. Thanks Don't you think that the atheist who thinks others are deluding themselves is himself actually showing his morality? What is morality anyway? How does your morality spring from anything other than atheism? What do you call some one who believes in things that are not true but keeps saying that they are true? I KNOW so many theist that really really believe that atheist are immoral and evil(I have argued with them a couple of time before). I was once a theist before and I have attended religious programs where clerics openly gloat and encourage people to believe in god because that belief will help them lead moral lives and castigate unbelievers for their unbelief which leads to immoral lifestyle, in fact believers are often advised to stay away from unbelievers because they are walking embodiment of lust, crime and all kinds of wrong doing. There are so many theist who believe that atheist are immoral. That is a FACT and since their beliefs can NOT be supported at all with any evidence, I will not be wrong if I call them deluded, because they really are. The way I see it, it does not take a particular worldview to say that others are deluded. Both theists and atheists continue to trade this kind of comments against one another - and at the end of the day, the real issues are not actually looked at. I think everyone is just trying to give his or her position a soothing balm when they slag off others as deluded or ridiculous (and yes, I have seen quite a lot of atheists congratulating themselves on the notion that they are smarter, brighter, better, etc., while theists in their view are all deluded and ridiculous - or even worse). The party never ends. What else will you call people that keep making conclusions that are wrong and still feel they are right? I call them deluded. And its TRUE. . . . . . |
Re: Moral Argument by mazaje(m): 5:04pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
MyJoe: Am good, and I hope you are good too. It can be argued that the fact that religious people are not necessarily more moral than the non-religious, including atheists, is paradoxical. Religions are supposed to be fountains from which spring moral instructions, hence the plainly misguided view that atheists who are perceived to be groping in the dark, as they lack this source of moral instruction, are necessarily immoral. The present situation in the word can be seen as an indictment, either of religious people or the religions of themselves. Religious people keep jumping to their conclusions because they believe that their diety is responsible for morality. Nobody has ever made a significant argument that god has something to do with morality. All attempts to insinuate god into morality involve obvious falsehoods. They'll say that you should obey god or he'll hurt you. But when you ask whether morality consists of obeying orders so as to avoid getting hurt by powerful authority figures, they change the subject. Morality is not objective and is always evolving. Deities do NOT make moral codes, humans do. |
Re: Moral Argument by Krayola(m): 5:05pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
mazaje: An atheists claims "there is no God" because theists can't prove there is one. A more honest and accurate claim, IMO, would be "I don't believe a God exists". For you to go on and make conclusions that you can not show to be correct, IMO, certifies u as DELUDED!! How do you plead? |
Re: Moral Argument by mazaje(m): 5:06pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
JeSoul: Thanks for the fix, Well appreciated. . . . . |
Re: Moral Argument by Nobody: 5:07pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
mazaje: What do you understand by morality? Where does it come from? Thin air? |
Re: Moral Argument by mazaje(m): 5:11pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
Krayola: If you make a claim that you can't prove how then do you expect any body to take you seriously? A theist claims that there is a god and cannot/ refuses to provide any evidence for such a god. Lack of evidence is evidence of absence. Some theist have the notion that atheist are more immoral than theist. There is no evidence to show for this, yet they keep believing this? What do you call that? |
Re: Moral Argument by viaro: 5:11pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
mazaje: Good to know. What do you call some one who believes in things that are not true but keeps saying that they are true? It all depends - whether what he or she says is either subjective or otherwise untransferable. It is either one has to take their subjective views on the premise of their subjectivity, without trying to argue that their own experience is "not true" simply because we don't want it to be true; or otherwise, realise that their claims are not transferable and so are subjective. I'm only responding in terms of the concerns of your OP. I KNOW so many theist that really really believe that atheist are immoral and evil(I have argued with them a couple of time before). Jesoul has helped to contextualise your concerns - and we note that "so many" and "some" does not equate to a default of "ALL". You should be expecting a bill (make it two, mine first before hers, hehe). Anyways, seriously. . . your experience is not peculiar, because I often meet up with some of my atheist friends who have just about the same attitude to theists as you described. I was once a theist before and I have attended religious programs where clerics openly gloat and encourage people to believe in god because that belief will help them lead moral lives and castigate unbelievers for their unbelief which leads to immoral lifestyle, in fact believers are often advised to stay away from unbelievers because they are walking embodiment of lust, crime and all kinds of wrong doing. There are so many theist who believe that atheist are immoral. That is a FACT and since their beliefs can NOT be supported at all with any evidence, I will not be wrong if I call them deluded, because they really are. Well, the argument or assertion of a few should not be translated as default with all. I could also enlist the same things and worse coming from atheists, but what use would it be here? The point is that using the arguments of a few for your default position is not quite helpful - others also might use the same type of arguments for the behaviour of atheists: and then where do we go from there? What else will you call people that keep making conclusions that are wrong and still feel they are right? I call them deluded. And its TRUE. . . . . . Hehe. . . on both sides of the pitch, we have 'em many deluded, if you ask me. But that does not make it any "true" for either of us, if we are applying across board! |
Re: Moral Argument by viaro: 5:13pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
Krayola: An agnostic pleads neither here nor there - a most deluded free-lance position, IMO. If you show me the empirical evidence of any free-lancer, you're still pleading delusion. So, how do you plead?? |
Re: Moral Argument by viaro: 5:15pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
mazaje: So, how do you want anybody to take the atheist who claims there is no God? |
Re: Moral Argument by mazaje(m): 5:16pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
davidylan: I will refer to morality as codes of conduct or social and cultural mores that differentiates between right and wrong in every human society. Morality MUST be learnt, it evolved and is still evolving. |
Re: Moral Argument by Krayola(m): 5:18pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
viaro: haha. An agnostic, IMO, does not seek to make assertions about the objectively unverifiable. He/she just observes the madness |
Re: Moral Argument by viaro: 5:21pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
mazaje: The point is that morality didn't come from thin air. The question of morality evolving is a moot point - we all know that no moral ethic remains rigid through history. The basic questions are not the evolving ethics, but their origin. |
Re: Moral Argument by viaro: 5:22pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
Krayola: My good man, welcome to the madness. There's a saying that if you hang around for long enough, you become part of what you observe! |
Re: Moral Argument by mazaje(m): 5:24pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
viaro: And what is the origin of morality? |
Re: Moral Argument by Krayola(m): 5:31pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
mazaje:
|
Re: Moral Argument by mazaje(m): 5:33pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
^^ Is that Zeus or Yahweh? |
Re: Moral Argument by viaro: 5:36pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
mazaje: Everyone has his or her subjective inference to that question - the theist as well the atheist. I believe morality did not originate entirely from matter on its own; and only intelligence in living beings could be responsible for the trace back to origins of any morality. Again, that is just my subjective view - it does not mean it answers the question in its entirety satisfactorily. |
Re: Moral Argument by viaro: 5:38pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
Krayola:mazaje link=topic=407380.msg5621323#msg5621323 date=1267633479: ^^ You're getting closer, bro. |
Re: Moral Argument by Krayola(m): 5:42pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
mazaje: That is Krayola, God of morals. viaro: Wrong cloud? or Closer to madness? |
Re: Moral Argument by mazaje(m): 5:44pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
viaro: Fair enough. This explanation is very very OK IMO. |
Re: Moral Argument by viaro: 5:45pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
Krayola: Hehe. . I'm beginning myself to catch the mad-flu. Need my meds, enjoy. |
Re: Moral Argument by mazaje(m): 5:45pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
Krayola: Go drink beer jorh, You |
Re: Moral Argument by Nobody: 5:47pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
mazaje: i thot you could provide an answer. |
Re: Moral Argument by bawomolo(m): 5:49pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
Re: Moral Argument by mazaje(m): 5:51pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
davidylan: Humans are the creators of human morality, Humans choose to accept or create what they consider to be acceptable or unacceptable moral codes of conduct. |
Re: Moral Argument by Nobody: 5:57pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
mazaje: Dont you think that's being evasive? Would it be "moral" for cannibals who considered eating their enemies a good thing? |
Re: Moral Argument by mazaje(m): 6:06pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
davidylan: It would be "moral" for them if they convinced themselves and provided justifications to show that their actions were right. That is why I said morality is NOT objective and varies from society to society. |
Re: Moral Argument by Nobody: 6:34pm On Mar 03, 2010 |
mazaje: 1. What "justifications" did cannibals provide for eating flesh? 2. What accounts for the striking similarity in morality among so many different cultures on earth? |
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