OliviaPope:
all this talk about freewill , sigh.

Isaiah 46:10 King James Version (KJV)

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure


If god has foreknowledge of all things, then he knew those that were predestined to choose either A or B, so how is freewill still relevant? Now you're talking predestined freewill

Isaiah 46:10 King James Version (KJV)

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure

What does it mean to do all his pleasure?

hopefulLandlord:


It' doesn't matter what we think or say,, If they believe in the bible then it matters what the bible says. The bible is very clear that there is no god given free will. It's just that Christians need to lie about how evil their god is so they automatically blurt out "FREE WILL" and hope nobody looks it up. Nowhere in the bible does it say anything about god giving free will. The reason god given free will is bullsheet is because Christians believe that god is all powerful, all knowing, the creator of the universe who made all the rules and has perfect knowledge of the future. The bible says,,, "The Lord has made everything for his own ends, even the wicked for the evil day, Proverbs 16:4 & I the Lord make evil , Isaiah 47,7. God has a plan, Jeremiah 29:11. Nobody can change his mind, Proverbs 19:21. No one comes to Jesus unless the Father draws them first (John 6:44). Makes all the rules , Exodus24:12>13. Made the flaws in people, Psalm 139:12, Can do anything, Mark 10:27. Knows the future, Isaiah 46:9>10. "The Bible repeatedly claims to be God's word. See 1 Corinthians 14:37; 2:10-13; Ephesians 3:3-5; John 16:13; Matthew 10:19,20; Galatians 1:8-12; 2 Peter 1:20,21; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy3:16,17; Luke 10:16. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, Ephesians 1:11, If their god had the power to make any universe he wanted, and knew everything from the start to end, then you CAN NOT have all those things and god given free will. NOW,, That their own bible proves there is NO god given free will ,, who are they going to blame? If you are a christian reading this, then you must own up to the fact that you worship a god who is a violent murder of all most people. Why do you worship this god?


Freewill is even paradoxical when dealing with Omniscient Omnipresent and Omnipotent being

Your last comment made me laugh out loud.

Your very comment is the true definition of paradoxical. Here you are trying to advice Christians against the actions of a God you declared does not exist. How can you be talking about the actions of a God who does not exist to you? Can a non existent God carry out any action?

You should be asking yourself "why do you talk about the actions of a God you declared does not exist"?

Oh and by the way, here are a few verses on freewill. Enjoy!

Proverbs 16:9

The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Joshua 24:15

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

John 7:17

If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority


There are too many to list out but I am sure with these three you get the message.

any sensible contributor?

hopefulLandlord:


Did they want to be killed by someone else's freewill?

Then let them not be killed by someone else's freewill. Who forced them to be killed by someone else's freewill?

freewill has to be choosing what you want to do and doing it

Freewill is the freedom to do what you want. However, it is not the freedom to choose what will come to you as a consequence of what you've done.

The shooter wanted to shoot people while the people shot didn't want to be shot! its very simple

Then let them not be shot nah. How did God violate the freewill of the victims?

not necessarily

many deaths are by choice, suicide for instance

Even if you don't commit suicide, you'll still die. You must die at some point.

Freewill has to cut both ways, all she did was point out the level of myopia your freewill post is exuding

No! not at all!!

The point is that the shooter's will to shoot people was granted while the guys shot didn't choose to be shot!, the people shot simply "chose" to enjoy the concert and go home, that's the choice they made
something has got to give, freewill has to be on a level playing field, if it tilts one way then its a catch-22 and a philosophical problem

I don't know how else I can break this down

Consider the person who chooses not to die. When he eventually dies, has his freewill been violated?

The people chose to enjoy the concert and go home. What prevented them from doing that?

Tahra:
Why is God unable to stop things like this from happening?

If God stopped it from happening, he would probably continue to be an agnostic. When righteousness is fully restored, there won't be evil anymore.

DoctorAlien:
Then let them not be killed by someone else's freewill. Who forced them to be killed by someone else's freewill?

Freewill should go like this

Mr. A, I want to die, please can you kill me?

Mrs. B: I've always wanted to kill someone but I've never met a willing person, are you sure you want to die cuz I've got a gun here and I can kill you right away

Mr A: Yes, I want to die

Mrs B (Brings out a Smith & Wesson, then shoots Mr A in the temple)

That's freewill, one person's freewill should not override another person or a catch-22 develops

I don't understand why you're still not getting this philosophical issue

hopefulLandlord:
any sensible contributor?

You have gotten all that is needed. Anything more you wish to drag is simply your usual mischievous mind at work. Argue all you want but this is the foundation of all your arguments.

YOU AN ATHEIST CANNOT BLAME GOD WHOM YOU DECLARED DOES NOT EXIST OF ANYTHING!

WE AS THEISTS CANNOT BLAME GOD FOR ANYTHING BECAUSE HE HAS GIVEN US FREEWILL AND WILL NOT VIOLATE IT DESPITE BEING GOD. WHATEVER HE WANTS FROM US HAS TO BE DONE WILLINGLY AND NOT FORCEFULLY ACCORDING TO THE NEW TESTAMENT.

ANY ARGUMENT YOU MAKE ABOUT GODS ALLEGED FAULTS OR NEGATIVE ACTIONS IS ALREADY SELF DEFEATING BECAUSE TO YOU GOD DOES NOT EXIST. SO HOW CAN YOU BLAME A NON EXISTENT GOD OF ANYTHING?

hopefulLandlord:


Did they want to be killed by someone else's freewill?

freewill has to be choosing what you want to do and doing it

The shooter wanted to shoot people while the people shot didn't want to be shot! its very simple
not necessarily

many deaths are by choice, suicide for instance


Freewill has to cut both ways, all she did was point out the level of myopia your freewill post is exuding


No! not at all!!

The point is that the shooter's will to shoot people was granted while the guys shot didn't choose to be shot!, the people shot simply "chose" to enjoy the concert and go home, that's the choice they made
something has got to give, freewill has to be on a level playing field, if it tilts one way then its a catch-22 and a philosophical problem

I don't know how else I can break this down

The freewill of a shooter trumps that of an innocent person .. This god self

any sensible contributor?

OliviaPope:
The freewill of a shooter trumps that of an innocent person .. This god self

exactly!! its funny how they haven't seen what I'm talking about or maybe they do but are feigning ignorance

hopefulLandlord:
any sensible contributor?

Another paradoxical comment.

You raise senseless arguments as an atheist talking about the actions of a God you claim does not exist yet you expect sensible answers that would solve your contradiction?

No be small thing

butterflyl1on:



yes it will go unpunished in the eyes of God. Gods way of judgement and justification is far different from ours.

Repent and ask him for forgiveness from a broken and a contrite heart and he will not despise you. He will forgive you, clean you up, adorn you and present you to the world as a brand new man who is full of love and not hate, peace and not war, tolerance and not intolerance and use you who was once evil as a witness to people who are still the way you used to be.

This is pathetic.

any sensible contributor?

Tahra:
This is pathetic.

What is pathetic? God does not subscribe to your human opinion of loathing for another.

So until God carries out an eye for an eye before you would be satisfied? I am sure it's people like you who celebrate jungle justice even without trial but would cry when a puppy is crushed.

I repeat he is free of all charges the moment he genuinely repents.

More senseless contributions from the atheists please

hopefulLandlord:

Freewill should go like this

Mr. A, I want to die, please can you kill me?

Mrs. B: I've always wanted to kill someone but I've never met a willing person, are you sure you want to die cuz I've got a gun here and I can kill you right away

Mr A: Yes, I want to die

Mrs B (Brings out a Smith & Wesson, then shoots Mr A in the temple)

That's freewill, one person's freewill should not override another person or a catch-22 develops

I don't understand why you're still not getting this philosophical issue

You failed to answer one question I asked you: how did God violate the freewill of the victims?

The freewill God gave man is like this: you can choose to obey my commandments(which forbids killing a fellow human being). You can also choose not to obey my commandments(hence kill a fellow human being). But there are consequences for each choice.

Freewill is in relation to God who gave it.

DoctorAlien:


You failed to answer one question I asked you: how did God violate the freewill of the victims?

The freewill God gave man is like this: you can choose to obey my commandments(which forbids killing a fellow human being). You can also choose not to obey my commandments(hence kill a fellow human being). But there are consequences for each choice.

Freewill is in relation to God who gave it.

This is what he doesn't get. He feels he knows the real purpose behind Gods freewill and its workings.

He must be omniscient like God to know the workings of this freewill which God permitted.

He feels that my freewill shouldn't violate yours. It's like saying I don't want to die or I don't want to be in an accident but now find yourself in the car of a reckless driver and the drivers desire to be reckless now makes EVERYBODY outside his freewill to be involved in an accident.

Maybe the driver should have asked, " should I crash the bus "? Wait for a response from everyone, carry out a vote as in the case of majority takes the vote before crashing or not crashing the bus

DoctorAlien:


You failed to answer one question I asked you: how did God violate the freewill of the victims?

The freewill God gave man is like this: you can choose to obey my commandments(which forbids killing a fellow human being). You can also choose not to obey my commandments(hence kill a fellow human being). But there are consequences for each choice.

Freewill is in relation to God who gave it.

like I said previously, you're looking at freewill from one single side (perpetrator's) whereas freewill in this situation has to cut both ways OR one freewill overrides the other's freewill which makes freewill one sided, those shot should be able to chose to be shot while the shooter chooses to shoot

your question is inconsequential

Freewill of A should not trump B, if it does then its not freewill

if this were a natural disaster then your freewill argument would've struck as it does not involve another's freewill but when 2 or more freewill comes into play, then something has got to give.........

butterflyl1on:



This is what he doesn't get. He feels he knows the real purpose behind Gods freewill and its workings.

He must be omniscient like God to know the workings of this freewill which God permitted.

He feels that my freewill shouldn't violate yours. It's like saying I don't want to die or I don't want to be in an accident but now find yourself in the car of a reckless driver and the drivers desire to be reckless now makes EVERYBODY outside his freewill to be involved in an accident.

Maybe the driver should have asked, " should I crash the bus "? Wait for a response from everyone, carry out a vote as in the case of majority takes the vote before crashing or not crashing the bus

He doesn't even understand that freewill is the freedom to choose to obey GOD or not, without God coercing the choice.

He thinks freewill is the freedom to choose what happens to you. In that case, the Vegas shooter can also choose not to receive the consequences of his actions.

OliviaPope:
An all knowing god definitely knew the killer would turn out to be an homicidal SOB, why did he create in him in the first place? Umm okay lets assume that was a mistake. an all knowing god definitely knew of his intention to go on a shooting spree, why didn't god strike him dead before he could? He's quite an expert at that .. Oh wait, perhaps god just let dozens of people die so one man would be saved? Lucky bloke!

god matter don tire me self.

Nigeria has scored, I'll be back after the game

DoctorAlien:


He doesn't even understand that freewill is the freedom to choose to obey GOD or not, without God coercing the choice.

He thinks freewill is the freedom to choose what happens to you. In that case, the Vegas shooter can also choose not to receive the consequences of his actions.

He has no idea what he is arguing about yet ignorantly argues with confidence.

hopefulLandlord:


like I said previously, you're looking at freewill from one single side (perpetrator's) whereas freewill in this situation has to cut both ways OR one freewill overrides the other's freewill which makes freewill one sided, those shot should be able to chose to be shot while the shooter chooses to shoot

your question is inconsequential

Freewill of A should not trump B, if it does then its not freewill

if this were a natural disaster then your freewill argument would've struck as it does not involve another's freewill but when 2 or more freewill comes into play, then something has got to give.........

You're confusing freewill as God gave it with maybe freedom/basic human rights as can be found in the Constitution. They're not the same. Freewill is not a rule about how human beings should relate to one another.

DoctorAlien:
The freewill God gave man is like this: you can choose to obey my commandments(which forbids killing a fellow human being). You can also choose not to obey my commandments(hence kill a fellow human being). But there are consequences for each choice.

Freewill is in relation to God who gave it.

Answer my question: how did God violate the freewill of the victims of the Vegas shooting?

butterflyl1on:


What is pathetic? God does not subscribe to your human opinion of loathing for another.

So until God carries out an eye for an eye before you would be satisfied? I am sure it's people like you who celebrate jungle justice even without trial but would cry when a puppy is crushed.

I repeat he is free of all charges the moment he genuinely repents.

FYI I don't support jungle justice neither do I celebrate it.I'll reply you later on the other one.

The freewill God gave man is like this:

"Option A: you can do the 10 commandments.

Option B: you can ignore God, worship idols, blaspheme and insult God, break His Sabbath, treat your parents with disrespect, kill people, lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, rape, maim, etc.

You can choose option A or B. I won't coerce your choice. I won't force you to do A, when you want to do B, and vice versa."

If you're saying that God should remove "kill people" from option B because people don't want to get killed by other people against their will, then:

1. God should remove "ignore God, worship idols, blaspheme aND insult God, break the Sabbath" from the option B because He doesn't want to be ignored against His wish(especially as He is the Creator), nor does He want His glory taken away as the Creator against His wish.
2. God should remove "treat your parents with disrespect" from option B because no parent wants to be treated with disrespect by their children against his/her wish.
3. God should remove "lie, cheat, rape, steal and maim" from option B because nobody wants these things done to him or her against their wish.
4. God should remove "commit adultery" from option B because at least some people don't want their partners cheating on them against their wish.

By the time God finishes removing all the items in option B for whatever reason you can come up with, you'd be left with only option A. But having only option A means there's really no freewill.

cc hopefulLandlord

DoctorAlien:
The freewill God gave man is like this:

"Option A: you can do the 10 commandments.

Option B: you can ignore God, worship idols, blaspheme and insult God, break His Sabbath, treat your parents with disrespect, kill people, lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, rape, maim, etc.

You can choose option A or B. I won't coerce your choice. I won't force you to do A, when you want to do B, and vice versa."

If you're saying that God should remove "kill people" from option B because people don't want to get killed by other people against their will, then:

1. God should remove "ignore God, worship idols, blaspheme aND insult God, break the Sabbath" from the option B because He doesn't want to be ignored against His wish(especially as He is the Creator), nor does He want His glory taken away as the Creator against His wish.
2. God should remove "treat your parents with disrespect" from option B because no parent wants to be treated with disrespect by their children against his/her wish.
3. God should remove "lie, cheat, rape, steal and maim" from option B because nobody wants these things done to him or her against their wish.
4. God should remove "commit adultery" from option B because at least some people don't want their partners cheating on them against their wish.

By the time God finishes removing all the items in option B for whatever reason you can come up with, you'd be left with only option A. But having only option A means there's really no freewill.

cc hopefulLandlord

Splendid and succinct!

DoctorAlien:


You're confusing freewill as God gave it with maybe freedom/basic human rights as can be found in the Constitution. They're not the same. Freewill is not a rule about how human beings should relate to one another.



Answer my question: how did God violate the freewill of the victims of the Vegas shooting?

This is one of the reasons I don't like arguing with apologists, anything can be twisted on its head to get out of a tight corner, pulling definitions is one such tactic

Freewill: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

Doctoralien, I remember when we debated sometime ago and you said whoever created the universe is god or something similar; I then showed that the statement is not necessarily true as something might've created the thing that created the universe; having said that and you're in a corner, you pulled a definition tactic by saying "anything that's created is part of the universe" or something similar (memory of something gets fuzzier with time) then I simply stopped arguing; I stopped not because I can't go forward in it but I usually sense when defensive mechanism is erected and doubling down becomes the order of the day

here you are now defining freewill in a way that also "helps" your case while I've been using the definition I gave up there which is actually more objective than your much more subjective one

You should've given this definition of yours from the beginning and I wouldn't have bothered at all

hopefulLandlord:


This is one of the reasons I don't like arguing with apologists, anything can be twisted on its head to get out of a tight corner, pulling definitions is one such tactic

Freewill: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

I can't remember giving any other definition of freewill on Nairaland apart from the one I gave above. Maybe you've been working with the wrong definition of the freewillwhich God gave man.

Doctor Alien, I remember when we debated sometime ago and you said whoever created the universe is god or something similar; I then showed that the statement is not necessarily true as something might've created the thing that created the universe; having said that and you're in a corner, you pulled a definition tactic by saying "anything that's created is part of the universe" or something similar (memory of something gets fuzzier with time) then I simply stopped arguing; I stopped not because I can't go forward in it but I usually sense when defensive mechanism is erected and doubling down becomes the order of the day

here you are now defining freewill in a way that also "helps" your case while I've been using the definition I gave up there which is actually more objective than your much more subjective one

You should've given this definition of yours from the beginning and I wouldn't have bothered at all

I had said before on this thread that freewill is the freedom to do what you want. But because there was the tendency of your misinterpreting that concise definition, I defined it in full, showing that freewill is in fact in relation to God who gave it. That's all.

You can hold me anywhere with this definition of freewill:

DoctorAlien:
The freewill God gave man is like this:

"Option A: you can do the 10 commandments.

Option B: you can ignore God, worship idols, blaspheme and insult God, break His Sabbath, treat your parents with disrespect, kill people, lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, rape, maim, etc.

You can choose option A or B. I won't coerce your choice. I won't force you to do A, when you want to do B, and vice versa."

DoctorAlien:
I can't remember giving any other definition of freewill on Nairaland apart from the one I gave above. Maybe you've been working with the wrong definition of the freewillwhich God gave man.



I had said before on this thread that freewill is the freedom to do what you want. But because there was the tendency of your misinterpreting that concise definition, I defined it in full, showing that freewill is in fact in relation to God who gave it. That's all.

You can hold me anywhere with this definition of freewill:

you gave this definition LONG into the discussion

infanct, the below was what you first gave as definition

DoctorAlien:

I mean, the Vegas shooter did what he wanted, of his own freewill, to do. The Vegas shooter was created by God with freewill i.e. he could do anything he wanted

this definition aligns with the one I gave and long after you brought a different one

I understand that you eventually talked about god in your first definition but it was more and example/buttressing rather than a definition

anyways, no need for back and forth anymore; if there's a god that values freewill as much as people say, then the freewill of one shouldn't override the freewill of another, if one chooses to shoot at me, I should have the choice to either dodge the bullet or chose to be hit by it, that to me, is what I call freewill and if it tilts to one side then something has to give

Thank you, I learnt somethings

DoctorAlien:
I can't remember giving any other definition of freewill on Nairaland apart from the one I gave above. Maybe you've been working with the wrong definition of the freewillwhich God gave man.



I had said before on this thread that freewill is the freedom to do what you want. But because there was the tendency of your misinterpreting that concise definition, I defined it in full, showing that freewill is in fact in relation to God who gave it. That's all.

You can hold me anywhere with this definition of freewill:

When someone forms an assumption in his head and convinces himself that his assumption must be the truth he begins to run with that assumption and wants to force you to accept his assumption as the truth despite being an atheist.

He believes he still knows more than you do as an atheist and you being a theist. He believes he understands scriptures better than you and holds the rhema of the word of God despite not having his spirit.

So when you argue with such misguided and ignorantly confident people you just have to either feel pity or get frustrated as you try to correct their contradiction and ignorance which they hold on to as mischievous truth.

They have the tongue of the devil. Twisting the word of God to suite their mischief yet being ignorant of the fact that scripture confirms scripture.

Hebrews 6:18

That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us.

hopefulLandlord:


you gave this definition LONG into the discussion

in fact, the below was what you first gave as definition

this definition aligns with the one I gave and long after you brought a different one

I see no difference between "freewill is the freedom to do what you want" and "The Vegas shooter was created by God with freewill i.e. he could do anything he wanted". Do you see any?

I understand that you eventually talked about god in your first definition but it was more and example/buttressing rather than a definition

anyways, no need for back and forth anymore; if there's a god that values freewill as much as people say, then the freewill of one shouldn't override the freewill of another, if one chooses to shoot at me, I should have the choice to either dodge the bullet or chose to be hit by it, that to me, is what I call freewill and if it tilts to one side then something has to give

Thank you, I learnt somethings

Who said that you don't have the choice to dodge the bullet?

Freewill is the freedom to do what you want. However, even though you have the freedom to do what you want, you will eventually do ONLY THE THINGS YOU CAN DO. If you cannot dodge the bullet, sorry then. You also can never become God or avoid death.

butterflyl1on:


When someone forms an assumption in his head and convinces himself that his assumption must be the truth he begins to run with that assumption and wants to force you to accept his assumption as the truth despite being an atheist.

There was no assumption the argument was based on what doctoralien based freewill on and not on what Freewill really mean not until the Hypocrite like i really knew him to be changed it wouldn't say i was surprised though

He believes he still knows more than you do as an atheist and you being a theist. He believes he understands scriptures better than you and holds the rhema of the word of God despite not having his spirit.

So when you argue with such misguided and ignorantly confident people you just have to either feel pity or get frustrated as you try to correct their contradiction and ignorance which they hold on to as mischievous truth.

This are just Assumption from your head the First part. the second part is just out of hatred he ignores you and it pains you to the core you need to learn to put your emotions in check

They have the tongue of the devil. Twisting the word of God to suite their mischief yet being ignorant of the fact that scripture confirms scripture.

Trash, stop whining