WHO GETS TO BE PERFECT?
Editing the human genome has huge potential for improving health — for those who can afford it

Debojyoti Chakraborty smiles at me from his laboratory in New Delhi. Through the grainy resolution of our video call, I can just make out a button-up shirt and short black hair atop a boyish face; in the background, graduate students in lab coats drift in and out of shot. The CSIR-Institute of Genomics & Integrative Biology, where his lab is based, experiments with reprogramming adult tissue to take on the characteristics of embryonic stem cells, which can then grow into over 200 other cell types.

Chakraborty’s own research team is focused on two human diseases: a rare type of encephalitis and sickle-cell anemia. The latter is an inherited blood disorder, widespread across sub-Saharan Africa and among certain castes and tribal groups in India, in which the hemoglobin protein in red blood cells takes on an abnormal shape. This prevents the blood from carrying oxygen efficiently, leading to organ damage and severe pain. Because of the demographics of its genetic carriers, it disproportionately impacts poorer people. With no cure, those affected by the condition require medication throughout their lives. Unless, of course, a more permanent solution can be discovered.

Chakraborty’s laboratory is one of the best equipped in India to conduct this kind of research. He has a team of four postgraduate students; a technician and a handful of project assistants; a fully-equipped cell culture and molecular biochemistry lab; a zebrafish facility; and access to the vast datasets of genetic sequences available through the institute’s mainframe.

Ultimately their hope is to develop a “one-size-fits-all” cure for sickle-cell: one that can be produced in bulk with government support, drastically reducing the overall cost. “The good thing is that it’s a single mutation which causes this disorder,” Chakraborty says. “And if it’s a single mutation it’s much easier to target using CRISPR, so that’s what we’re trying to do.”

CRISPR, more fully known as CRISPR-Cas9, is a gene-editing technology that allows for targeted genetic editing with an accuracy never seen before. Since its discovery in 2013, researchers around the world have started working to cure many human diseases that are currently either difficult to treat, or are entirely untreatable.

Still, “easier,” as Chakraborty describes it, is subjective. The costs involved in CRISPR-Cas9 treatments are huge—and it’s hard not to question whether the huge promise of this revolutionary new technology will be available to those who need it most.

As a species, we have achieved mastery over the external environment more quickly than we have over our inner workings. The germ theory of disease was only conclusively demonstrated by Louis Pasteur in the early 1860s; before then most explanations were built on crude metaphors at best (“bad air,” “poisonous insects”) and sheer quackery at worst.

In the short time that effective medical technology has existed, it has augmented our ability to deal with the many diseases, disorders, and miscellaneous ailments that can compromise the human body. Just as technology that thinks for us enhances our ability to process information beyond our natural capacity, health inventions like the contraceptive pill allow us to control, slow, or even push back sickness and death.
In rich economies, where basic threats to health like unclean water or bacterial infection are under relative control, there are now two main frontiers for medical research. The first is chronic conditions like cancer, heart disease, and diabetes; the other is inherited genetic disorders. This is why CRISPR has so many scientists so excited.

CRISPR stands for “Clustered Regularly Interspaced Short Palindromic Repeats,” short sequences of genetic code in a bacterium’s genome interspaced by samples of viruses which have attacked the bacteria in the past. Like a poster showing the face of a wanted criminal, the bacterial defence systems carry CRISPR sections around until they find a match, latching onto the enemy virus and deploying an enzyme, Cas9, that cuts it into pieces. Crucially, scientists can then substitute new sections of DNA in those gaps, making CRISPR-Cas9 the perfect tool for identifying, removing, and replacing individual genes with remarkable precision in any living thing.

The potential uses are almost limitless. A few currently active projects include sterilizing mosquitoes that transmit malaria, breeding abnormally muscular dogs for military and hunting use, and creating peanuts that won’t cause dangerous allergic reactions. It offers a way to fix currently incurable conditions like muscular dystrophy, cystic fibrosis, and Huntington’s chorea, as well as deadly transmitted diseases including HIV/AIDS.
But this is likely only for those who are able to afford it. Since these gene therapy treatments must be tailored to the DNA of each individual patient, overhead costs run into the hundreds of thousands—or even millions—of dollars per treatment. This is likely to be the case for at least the next decade, according to Jim Kozubek, a science writer and author of Modern Prometheus: Editing the Human Genome with Crispr-Cas9.

Kozubek explained some of the reasons for the high price tag: “If you have a living human, how are you going to get CRISPR into all of their cells, or some of their cells in particular?” he told me. “One way to do it is ex vivo: you take T-cells or blood cells out of the patient’s body, treat their cells, and then return the cells back to them — that’s called autologous cell therapy. Or you can use a virus to do in vivo therapy, which is to scale up CRISPR into a retrovirus or adeno-associated virus and then dose a human with thousands or millions of copies of the virus to carry CRISPR into their living cells and treat them that way.”

Either method will cost somewhere in the tens of thousands of dollars per person. On top of that, there’s the cost of hospitalization to administer the treatment, followed by careful monitoring and a host of other steps to supervise recovery and manage risk. The final bill will be somewhere on a par with the average cost of a new house in the U.S.
“Right now it can’t be very exciting for anyone that doesn’t have high-end healthcare,” Kozubek observes. There’s a clear disconnect between how easy CRISPR makes it to edit cells and the prohibitive cost of using it — and, in turn, the ability of normal people to access it.

On August 30, 2017, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the first gene-altering leukemia treatment for humans. Marketed under the name Kymriah and produced by the pharmaceutical giant Novartis, it uses a technique developed by researchers at the University of Pennsylvania called CAR-T cell therapy. Patients’ own immune cells are engineered to attack cancerous cells in a way that would not otherwise be biologically possible, turning them into what has been called “a living drug.”
Only one treatment session with Kymriah is necessary to reverse an aggressive form of childhood leukemia that is all but untreatable other means. The price tag? $475,000. Though Kymriah is not directly related to CRISPR, its release is a good indication of how CRISPR will be brought to market — and its ultimate cost.

“If you have a piece of medical technology, in order to sell it you need to get regulatory approval,” says Jakob S. Sherkow, an associate professor of law at New York Law School and specialist in patent law in the biological sciences. “These trials are inordinately expensive at large scale. What that means is that sometimes companies are wary of spending hundreds of millions of dollars to bring their product to market if they’re not going to have some kind of exclusivity period afterwards.”

Nothing about this is unique to CRISPR, Sherkow is keen to point out. The pipeline running from discovery to clinical trials to patented product is standard procedure in the pharmaceutical industry, for better or worse. But the factors dictating how much research funding is allocated to the study of different diseases mean that conditions which affect the poor can be chronically understudied.

In 1990, the Global Forum for Health Research, which promotes health research on diseases affecting poorer nations, popularized the concept of the “10/90 gap,” where only 10 percent of global health research funding targets the countries in which 90 percent of preventable deaths occur. A 2014 University of Chicago study corroborated these findings—the global disease burden of a given condition showed no correlation whatsoever with the funding it receives. Instead, research is correlated with the “market for treatment,” the disease burden multiplied by the wealth of the nations most affected.

Right now CRISPR editing in humans is discussed in terms of treatments for either chronic or genetic diseases (eradicating malaria transmission is a notable exception). On a technical level, new treatments for diabetes could provide just as much hope in Nairobi as New York, but in practical terms, pharmaceutical companies are in the business of developing products for those who can most afford to pay for them.

Given the high price point, most CRISPR-based therapies are likely to be financed by some form of health insurance. This means that in nations that rely largely on private healthcare, insurance companies will end up being one of the main gatekeepers of public access to the technology, so their willingness to include genetic treatments in policy coverage is key.

Already there are signs that some insurers intend to do exactly the opposite. As Kozubek has noted, a handful of American insurance companies have already issued policies that specifically exclude gene therapies in order to avoid bearing the cost, a move that could set a precedent across the industry. In the U.S., sickle-cell anemia most commonly afflicts African-Americans and other communities of color, which tend to be poorer and have worse access to healthcare than less-affected communities. (Princeton anthropology professor Carolyn Rouse has argued that “sickle-cell disease funding is a form of social justice for blacks as breast cancer funding is for women.”)

Continue reading here: https://howwegettonext.com/who-gets-to-be-perfect-3efba410fd63?gi=f3be67fd8a74

Cc. Lalasticlala
Mynd44
dominique

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What do you guys think of this?

Lalasticlala nah! Take this thing to front page and let people see it jhor. I wonder why important things never go viral and never get "hits". What kind of humanity is this?

ToZaraWithaZ:
Lalasticlala nah! Take this thing to front page and let people see it jhor. I wonder why important things never go viral and never get "hits". What kind of humanity is this?

This is the next big thing and will begin to gain more popularity as time goes by, in fact, we can predict sickness children would suffer from by looking into the genome sequence of the parents and edit it, by cutting molecules that are responsible for specific sickness, science would aim to produce offsprings with lesser issues, it holds promise. The aftermath is not to produce the perfect being, but to reduce exposure the sicknesses that plagues humanity. Think of scenarios where diseases that don't have cures may affect an offspring and stemming it in its track before it occurs. Diseases like autism, Alzheimer, aids, can be dealt with when fully perfected.


This thread should make FP, this are the kind of information we need on the FP and not less relevant content...


Congrats to humanity

supersystemsnig:


This is the next big thing and will begin to gain more popularity as time goes by, in fact, we can predict sickness children would suffer from by looking into the genome sequence of the parents and edit it, by cutting molecules that are responsible for specific sickness, science would aim to produce offsprings with lesser issues, it holds promise. The aftermath is not to produce the perfect being, but to reduce exposure the sicknesses that plagues humanity. Think of scenarios where diseases that don't have cures may affect an offspring and stemming it in its track before it occurs. Diseases like autism, Alzheimer, aids, can be dealt with when fully perfected.


This thread should make FP, this are the kind of information we need on the FP and not less relevant content...


Congrats to humanity

Apotheosis; perfection; divinity - that's the end game. If not, what else? It's man's destiny to become SUPERMAN then go from superman to becoming God. To build an Earth fit for gods. Build bridges to the heavens. Travel to the stars and beyond. Acknowledge no limits. Not stopping until we are ACTUAL GODS.

But, you can't become Godly and divine while still trapped in a human body (hello, crazy PHYSICALIST Transhumanists), so you have to rid the human body of its defects and failings for the express purpose of TRANSCENDING the human condition.

Ancient cultures all had a notion of decline and fall. They imagined a Golden Age of the Gods, followed by a Silver Age, a Bronze Age, a Heroic Age (a brief echo of the Golden Age), and then a ghastly Iron Age of violence, greed and selfishness (the current age).

The modern project represents the opposite trajectory: we will go from this nightmare time to the only, true Golden Age - the one where we are gods ourselves and not at the mercy of any alien gods.

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Tozara

ToZaraWithaZ:
Apotheosis; perfection; divinity - that's the end game. If not, what else? It's man's destiny to become SUPERMAN then go from superman to becoming God. To build an Earth fit for gods. Build bridges to the heavens. Travel to the stars and beyond. Acknowledge no limits. Not stopping until we are ACTUAL GODS.

But, you can't become Godly and divine while still trapped in a human body (hello, crazy PHYSICALIST Transhumanists), so you have to rid the human body of its defects and failings for the express purpose of TRANSCENDING the human condition.

Ancient cultures all had a notion of decline and fall. They imagined a Golden Age of the Gods, followed by a Silver Age, a Bronze Age, a Heroic Age (a brief echo of the Golden Age), and then a ghastly Iron Age of violence, greed and selfishness (the current age).

The modern project represents the opposite trajectory: we will go from this nightmare time to the only, true Golden Age - the one where we are gods ourselves and not at the mercy of any alien gods.

You made some clear points that are worth addressing, however the goal is not to become the super being, but to dominate life on earth, simply the same way innovation makes a society better, this is what this innovation addresses. Hence we need a perspective shift to embrace these developments, otherwise we become like the ancient world that killed scientists and persecuted them for inventions we still use till today...

supersystemsnig:



You made some clear points that are worth addressing, however the goal is not to become the super being, but to dominate life on earth, simply the same way innovation makes a society better, this is what this innovation addresses. Hence we need a perspective shift to embrace these developments, otherwise we become like the ancient world that killed scientists and persecuted them for inventions we still use till today...

What I'm saying in essence is this: I believe that it's humanity's purpose to explore the universe, understand reality to the tiniest detail, travel the stars, colonize galaxies, become cosmic minds that take delight in the total comprehension of the mathematics of reality. Appreciate the beauty of the cosmos from all angles and revel in the orgasmic sweet feelings it brings. To achieve all that, we need to fight things that can hinder such visions - like the diseases and other problems plaguing our species at the moment.

But the moment all that is solved, and the human body functions PERFECTLY the way it should, including artificial features makes things pointless and much less fun. Imagine the Gilgamesh project whose goal is to make man immortal - interfering with the natural cycles of birth, death and rebirth - what would be the point? It would make life ugly, the planet becomes endarkened, the sun goes gloomy, nature loses its feeling of warmth and glamor. Such a thing can only create pointless, sad, human monsters, burdened with the pain and torture of eternal tedium.

The same goes for cyborgs - it can only create pointless monsters.

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Tozara

ToZaraWithaZ:
What I'm saying in essence is this: I believe that it's humanity's purpose to explore the universe, understand reality to the tiniest detail, travel the stars, colonize galaxies, become cosmic minds that take delight in the total comprehension of the mathematics of reality. Appreciate the beauty of the cosmos from all angles and revel in the orgasmic sweet feelings it brings. To achieve all that, we need to fight things that can hinder such visions - like the diseases and other problems plaguing our species at the moment.

But the moment all that is solved, and the human body functions PERFECTLY the way it should, including artificial features makes things pointless and much less fun. Imagine the Gilgamesh project whose goal is to make man immortal - interfering with the natural cycles of birth, death and rebirth - what would be the point? It would make life ugly, the planet becomes endarkened, the sun goes gloomy, nature loses its feeling of warmth and glamor. Such a thing can only create pointless, sad, human monsters, burdened with the pain and torture of eternal tedium.

The same goes for cyborgs - it can only create pointless monsters.

Articulate, excellent and on point, but the problem isn't science, i beg to disagree, how technology is used is no one's responsibility. Human cloning was never imagined from the start, it was organ cloning to use in replacing damaged human body parts but it ended up as a full human clone,we can't take responsibility for what happens and how they do...Don't blame science or the world, it's also exploring what is invented, simple....

supersystemsnig:




Articulate, excellent and on point, but the problem isn't science, i beg to disagree, how technology is used is no one's responsibility. Human cloning was never imagined from the start, it was organ cloning to use in replacing damaged human body parts but it ended up as a full human clone,we can't take responsibility for what happens and how they do...Don't blame science or the world, it's also exploring what is invented, simple....

Lol. I'm not blaming science. Science is an amoral enterprise, and a tool in the hands of man. But we can question the morality and values behind THE WAY it is used by man.

You can only blame a thing that is alive, conscious and has motives, will and intentions. So, even though Nuclear Physics is a legitimate branch of science, the morality behind the invention of NUCLEAR WEAPONS (like, just what do we need those things for? Why should they exist in the first place, and why do they still exist? America wants "world peace" but has over 6000 thermonuclear weapons! WTF!) and blame the scientists that spearheaded those absurd and grossly inhumane projects.

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Tozara

ToZaraWithaZ:
Lol. I'm not blaming science. Science is an amoral enterprise, and a tool in the hands of man. But we can question the morality and values behind THE WAY it is used by man.

You can only blame a thing that is alive, conscious and has motives, will and intentions. So, even though Nuclear Physics is a legitimate branch of science, the morality behind the invention of NUCLEAR WEAPONS (like, just what do we need those things for? Why should they exist in the first place, and why do they still exist? America wants "world peace" but has over 6000 thermonuclear weapons! WTF!) and blame the scientists that spearheaded those absurd and grossly inhumane projects.

If the inventor of AK-47 can smile before a camera to receive award and say his not bothered about it one bit, then you know this world is something. It was this day, i gave up on humanity and its sanity. We can't question how things would end up been used ultimately, all the evil in the world i'm sure all came out of scheming good things...All, evil is the aftermath of good, which is why good on the planet as it is is less than perfect. Hence the debate for the goodness of this planet and the current existence and the need to hit the reset button at some point. I'll stop here, because of our diverse perspectives in this realm.


America does not just want peace, but everyone does, Sorry, i won't be your loyalist to lean on on this one. Russia has more nuclear war heads than america, and combining the stockpile of America and China is not little in anyway. Now, it takes strength to preserve peace, in the quest of peace we learn to war, we war to become strong, to stand as a threat to any threat to peace itself. Peace can not be obtained if the threat to peace is not balanced out... I know your stance, however, it takes a war that has embraced war to truly understand, embrace and acknowledge peace...America is peace. !

supersystemsnig:



If the inventor of AK-47 can smile before a camera to receive award and say his not bothered about it one bit, then you know this world is something. It was this day, i gave up on humanity and its sanity. We can't question how things would end up been used ultimately, all the evil in the world i'm sure all came out of scheming good things...All, evil is the aftermath of good, which is why good on the planet as it is is less than perfect. Hence the debate for the goodness of this planet and the current existence and the need to hit the reset button at some point. I'll stop here, because of our diverse perspectives in this realm.


America does not just want peace, but everyone does, Sorry, i won't be your loyalist to lean on on this one. Russia has more nuclear war heads than america, and combining the stockpile of America and China is not little in anyway. Now, it takes strength to preserve peace, in the quest of peace we learn to war, we war to become strong, to stand as a threat to any threat to peace itself. Peace can not be obtained if the threat to peace is not balanced out... I know your stance, however, it takes a war that has embraced war to truly understand, embrace and acknowledge peace...America is peace. !

America is peace? That's ridiculous western propaganda. Tell that to the million innocents the "peace-loving" Americans have killed on foreign soil during their "adventures" in the past few years. America is a monstrous global bully that has no modicum of humanity, and cloaks its psychopathy with the cotton of lies and propaganda its western media machine is expert at mass-producing.

Haven said that, the point is not in whomever has the most nuclear weapons. The fact remains that America invests more in its military than in humanitarian projects, has a ridiculous number of nuclear warheads, has no intention to call for absolute nuclear disarmament (they're a serious threat to human civilization, and there's no justification for their continual existence), has invaded more nations in peace time than the most rogue nation in the world, and dropped bombs on its civilian populace, killing the innocent, while searching for a few "bad guys" because America says they're bad, and has the power to say so [since, you know, in the jungle where there are no values, "Might is Right"].

Having standing armies is no crime. A nation will always need to defend itself against external threat. The existence of nuclear weapons, however, is another matter entirely, since they pose a serious threat to everyone - those that posess them and those that don't. America cannot have nuclear weapons and sanction North Korea for her nuclear programs. Afterall, America started it when it developed Nuclear bombs and dropped it on civilian populations in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Many scientists who contributed to the creation of these WMDs now advocate getting rid of time. And it is high time everyone else agreed with their demand.

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Tozara

ToZaraWithaZ:
America is peace? That's ridiculous Western propaganda. Tell that to the million innocents the "peace-loving" Americans have killed on foreign soil during their "adventures" in the past few years. America is a monstrous global bully that has no modicum of humanity, and cloaks its psychopathy with the cotton of lies and propaganda its western media machine is expert in mass-producing.

Haven said that, the point is not in whomever has the most nuclear weapons. The fact remains that America invests more in its military than in humanitarian projects, has a ridiculous number of nuclear warheads, has no intention to call for absolute nuclear disarmament (they're a serious threat to human civilization, and there's no justification for the continual existence), has invaded more nations in peace time than the most rogue nation in the world, and dropped bombs on its civilian populace, killing the innocent, while searching for a few "bad guys" because America says they're bad, and has the power to say so [since, you know, in the jungle where there are no values, "Might is Right"].

Having standing armies is no crime. A nation will always need to defend itself from external threat. The existence of nuclear weapons, however, is another matter entirely, since they pose a serious threat to everyone - those that posesse them and those that don't. America cannot have nuclear weapons and sanction North Korea for her nuclear programs. Afterall, America started it when it developed Nuclear bombs and dropped it on civilian populations in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Many scientists who contributed to the creation of these WMDs now advocate getting rid of time. And it is high time everyone else agreed with their demand.

You're a person with high standards, you shifted the posts. Are you aware America pursued reducing the number of nuclear war heads steadily, but Russia didn't oblige to this agreement? What happens to the Iranian threat of death to Israel and America? What happened to NK's threat to the existence of America? Have you checked the previous year's military spending of China,Germany, Turkey and Russia... Now go and research, start with China, i'll wait for your reply when you're done checking...

supersystemsnig:




You're a person with high standards, you shifted the posts. Are you aware America pursued reducing the number of nuclear war heads steadily, but Russia didn't oblige to this agreement? What happens to the Iranian threat of death to Israel and America? What happened to NK's threat to the existence of America? Have you checked the previous year's military spending of China,Germany, Turkey and Russia... Now go and research, start with China, i'll wait for your reply when you're done checking...

Lol. This doesn't need to escalate into a debate. Do you support the abolition of nuclear weapons or not? That's the point.

America is no saint. Israel is no saint either. Israel treats the Palestinians like sh!t and the "peace and human rights loving" America turns a blind eye. Israel itself is illegitimately occupying a land that does not belong to it - a land to which it has very weak claim. So, every reaction you see were guaranteed from the onset. Blame the "Masters of the Universe" for always trying to have their way no matter what, and damn the consequences.

And in what way is North Korea a threat to the USA? First thing to note: I will never believe any reports from American media concerning North Korea unless it can be verified independently of them, since they're notorious for their lies and propaganda. North Korea poses no threat to America. In fact, on the contrary, The US has always been the one bullying and threatening North Korea, and if they happen to be returning the favour, then it's all America's fault.

As long as America possesses nuclear weapons, they can't stop North Korea from developing them too. Afterall, America might have invaded their country and made them into another Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya had they not possess nuclear weapons.

Do not forget the main thrust of the discussion, howerver, which is this: ALL scientists and governments involved in the continual development and maintenance of nuclear weapons are INSANE, and that includes Russia as well.

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Tozara

ToZaraWithaZ:
Lol. This doesn't need to escalate into a debate. Do you support the abolition of nuclear weapons or not? That's the point.

America is no saint. Israel is no saint either. Israel treats the Palestinians like sh!t and the "peace and human rights loving" America turns a blind eye. Israel itself is illegitimately occupying a land that does not belong to it - a land to which it has very weak claim. So, every reaction you see were guaranteed from the onset. Blame the "Masters of the Universe" for always trying to have their way no matter what, and damn the consequences.

And in what way is North Korea a threat to the USA? First thing to note: I will never believe any reports from American media concerning North Korea unless it can be verified independently of them, since they're notorious for their lies and propaganda. North Korea poses no threat to America. In fact, on the contrary, The US has always been the one bullying and threatening North Korea, and if they happen to be returning the favour, then it's all America's fault.

As long as America possesses nuclear weapons, they can't stop North Korea from developing them too. Afterall, America might have invaded their country and made them into another Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya had they not possess nuclear weapons.

Do not forget the main thrust of the discussion, howerver, which is this: ALL scientists and governments involved in the continual development and maintenance of nuclear weapons are INSANE, and that includes Russia as well.

I have found a like minded person. Halleluyah




Your information is not updated. America doesn't have 6000 Nuclear war heads anyone and has steadly declined its amount over the past 8 years. I can tell it falls way lesser than this figure. The world has over 14,000 Nuclear war heads with over 20Kilo tons of nuclear power, enough to shred the earth into pieces within days, Check and tell you the list of countries with the largest stockpile? Go and check and see for yourself. Recently, over the past 18 months Russia, China and NK, have publicly displayed some of the greatest and most sophisticated nuclear weaponry, not the United States, in the last year of Obama, to reduce the perceived conception about the American army, are youa ware he slashed the budget massively in such a way that it affected the military spending? Go and find out and see, why many uniform men were against Obama and how the scaling down of the military to appease Russia caused this problem. You're overly fixated with America and America is not the problem of the world. Deduce the problems of the world and its a basic as the nagtive jibes we see everyday, bitterness,envy,anger,strife,jealousy,grudge...all of these are not American made my brother, they are all basic human problems. Humanity is the problem my brother not anything else.

ToZaraWithaZ:
Lol. This doesn't need to escalate into a debate. Do you support the abolition of nuclear weapons or not? That's the point.

America is no saint. Israel is no saint either. Israel treats the Palestinians like sh!t and the "peace and human rights loving" America turns a blind eye. Israel itself is illegitimately occupying a land that does not belong to it - a land to which it has very weak claim. So, every reaction you see were guaranteed from the onset. Blame the "Masters of the Universe" for always trying to have their way no matter what, and damn the consequences.

And in what way is North Korea a threat to the USA? First thing to note: I will never believe any reports from American media concerning North Korea unless it can be verified independently of them, since they're notorious for their lies and propaganda. North Korea poses no threat to America. In fact, on the contrary, The US has always been the one bullying and threatening North Korea, and if they happen to be returning the favour, then it's all America's fault.

As long as America possesses nuclear weapons, they can't stop North Korea from developing them too. Afterall, America might have invaded their country and made them into another Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya had they not possess nuclear weapons.

Do not forget the main thrust of the discussion, howerver, which is this: ALL scientists and governments involved in the continual development and maintenance of nuclear weapons are INSANE, and that includes Russia as well.

America did not invade countries as you made it slightly, the oil block that included Saudi, UAE, the gulf countries, invited America into cases like Libya and Syria. Why are you multiplying knowledge but don't quote the real truth ? WHY ?Is Afganistan not getting to be a better country as we speak? Let me ask you, you may not know? You think with the toy 10 nuclear war heads of North Korea, it can stand against USA? Prove it where America ever invaded any country out of selfish interest and what it took when it left tell me? Afterall the Japanese of ancient history invaded China over 10 times, Russia invaded China over 5 times, why don't they bear your wrath on the same ground ?

supersystemsnig:




America did not invade countries as you made it slightly, the oil block that included Saudi, UAE, the gulf countries, invited America into cases like Libya and Syria. Why are you multiplying knowledge but don't quote the real truth ? WHY ?Is Afganistan not getting to be a better country as we speak? Let me ask you, you may not know? You think with the toy 10 nuclear war heads of North Korea, it can stand against USA? Prove it where America ever invaded any country out of selfish interest and what it took when it left tell me? Afterall the Japanese of ancient history invaded China over 10 times, Russia invaded China over 5 times, why don't they bear your wrath on the same ground ?

The values that existed in those times do not exist today. There has been a remarkable paradigm shift. We live in a world where the UDHR exists, the UN exists, and the sovereinty of other nations is to be recognized and respected. A world where America portrays itself as a beacon of virtue, liberty and humanitarianism. We therefore cannot judge them by the same standards. Whereas, Imperial Japan invaded China out of pure aggression and with the intention to dominate, making its agenda as clear as mud, Modern America does these things in contradiction of the values it claims to espouse and uphold, defending its actions with lies and propaganda. It is detestable hypocrisy.

Where are the weapons of mass destruction that America found in Iraq? Wasn't the invasion of Iraq carried out under that pretext, even though there was no shred of evidence to prove it?

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Tozara

ToZaraWithaZ:
The values that existed in those times do not exist today. There has been a remarkable paradigm shift. We live in a world where the UDHR exists, the UN exists, and the sovereinty of other nations is to be recognized and respected. A world where America portrays itself as a beacon of virtue, liberty and humanitarianism. We therefore cannot judge them by the same standards. Whereas, Imperial Japan invaded China out of pure aggression and with the intention to dominate, making its agenda as clear as mud, Modern America does this things in contradiction of the values it claims to espouse and uphold, defending its actions with lies and propaganda. It is detestable hypocricy.

Where are the weapons of mass destruction that America found in Iraq? Wasn't the invasion of Iraq carried out under that pretext, even though there was no shred of evidence to prove it?

Iraq was a disaster waiting to happen, even Iraqis are happy with the current nation. Syria was a disaster waiting to happen, even Al Jazeera published the history over Syria as far back as 50 years back, Syria was just been managed, Libya was been managed as it is till now, oone of these are the problems of an external nation, but internal infractions that were left unresolved.I have many arab friends, i have spoken with many arabs online from at least 7 different arab nations. Though a Christian, they even adopted me as family. Some have invited me to Egypt several times. My brother, the problem is humanity, the current world is a victim of its ancient past and we rest upon this posture. I am sorry if you're on the other side of the divide this is how it is. But as for me, personally, i have chosen a path. Rather than kill anyone or encourage it, i rather die, and not add to the maddness of this world..Simple...

supersystemsnig:




I have found a like minded person. Halleluyah




Your information is not updated. America doesn't have 6000 Nuclear war heads anyone and has steadly declined its amount over the past 8 years. I can tell it falls way lesser than this figure. The world has over 14,000 Nuclear war heads with over 20Kilo tons of nuclear power, enough to shred the earth into pieces within days, Check and tell you the list of countries with the largest stockpile? Go and check and see for yourself. Recently, over the past 18 months Russia, China and NK, have publicly displayed some of the greatest and most sophisticated nuclear weaponry, not the United States, in the last year of Obama, to reduce the perceived conception about the American army, are youa ware he slashed the budget massively in such a way that it affected the military spending? Go and find out and see, why many uniform men were against Obama and how the scaling down of the military to appease Russia caused this problem. You're overly fixated with America and America is not the problem of the world. Deduce the problems of the world and its a basic as the nagtive jibes we see everyday, bitterness,envy,anger,strife,jealousy,grudge...all of these are not American made my brother, they are all basic human problems. Humanity is the problem my brother not anything else.

I never said America is the problem of the world. Just trying to fault your assertion that "America is peace". No, it is not.

America, Russia, China, North Korea..... They're all as mad as each other.

America revolutionized human warfare with the development of the atomic bomb. And ever since other major powers followed suit, the world has been faced with the threat of a nuclear holocaust.

The purpose of the Military is to defend the nation and win wars. NO ONE WINS IN A NUCLEAR WAR. The human race as a whole loses. Nuclear weapons should be abolished. There's no point in posessing them. None at all.

---

Tozara

supersystemsnig:




Iraq was a disaster waiting to happen, even Iraqis are happy with the current nation. Syria was a disaster waiting to happen, even Al Jazeera published the history over Syria as far back as 50 years back, Syria was just been managed, Libya was been managed as it is till now, oone of these are the problems of an external nation, but internal infractions that were left unresolved.I have many arab friends, i have spoken with many arabs online from at least 7 different arab nations. Though a Christian, they even adopted me as family. Some have invited me to Egypt several times. My brother, the problem is humanity, the current world is a victim of its ancient past and we rest upon this posture. I am sorry if you're on the other side of the divide this is how it is. But as for me, personally, i have chosen a path. Rather than kill anyone or encourage it, i rather die, and not add to the maddness of this world..Simple...

Check this out: www.mortalpoet.com/world-leaders-guns-bombs-will-give-us-peace/

ToZaraWithaZ:
I never said America is the problem of the world. Just trying to fault your assertion that "America is peace". No, it is not.

America, Russia, China, North Korea..... They're all as mad as each other.

America revolutionized human warfare with the development of the atomic bomb. And ever since other major powers follow suit, the world has been faced with the threat of the nuclear holocaust.

The purpose of the Military is to defend the nation and win wars. NO ONE WINS IN A NUCLEAR WAR. The human race as a whole loses. Nuclear weapons should be abolished. There's no point in posessing them. None at all.

@ This : The purpose of the Military is to defend the nation and win wars. NO ONE WINS IN A NUCLEAR WAR. The human race as a whole loses. Nuclear weapons should be abolished. There's no point in posessing them. None at all.

The world did not understand no one wins in a nuclear war until after its discovery. You may not be aware, i'm a trained physicist and have studied nuclear physics sine 8. After the use of the first bomb on Japan, even America regretted it and was to conceal it, and curb it, not for personal use, but to kill the invention, but different nation had spies in the system that stole it, and this is how we got to where we are, i enjoyed this discuss with you. I keep telling people beware, it is close, we are close to the edge, 14,000 nuclear war heads is too much for the entire galaxy as the balance would be badly damaged if unleashed. Anyway, i'm certain it will be used someday anyways....


We only now know they were a mistake by virtue of human development in studies. Google and see top ten regrets of Science, and you'll see the atomic bomb. Blame Albert Einstein cause without him, we may never have discovered it then... Se Nuclear bomb would be discovered at some point. It is the destiny of this planet. Embrace it... Get plenty of popcorns and join me, on that day, eat pop corn and wait for it to hit...

supersystemsnig:


@ This : The purpose of the Military is to defend the nation and win wars. NO ONE WINS IN A NUCLEAR WAR. The human race as a whole loses. Nuclear weapons should be abolished. There's no point in posessing them. None at all.

The world did not understand no one wins in a nuclear war until after its discovery. You may not be aware, i'm a trained physicist and have studied nuclear physics sine 8. After the use of the first bomb on Japan, even America regretted it and was to conceal it, and curb it, not for personal use, but to kill the invention, but different nation had spies in the system that stole it, and this is how we got to where we are, i enjoyed this discuss with you. I keep telling people beware, it is close, we are close to the edge, 14,000 nuclear war heads is too much for the entire galaxy as the balance would be badly damaged if unleashed. Anyway, i'm certain it will be used someday anyways....


We only now know they were a mistake by virtue of human development in studies. Google and see top ten regrets of Science, and you'll see the atomic bomb. Blame Albert Einstein cause without him, we may never have discovered it then... Se Nuclear bomb would be discovered at some point. It is the destiny of this planet. Embrace it... Get plenty of popcorns and join me, on that day, eat pop corn and wait for it to hit...

Hahahaha. It's really not a laughing matter though. A nuclear armageddon is a likely occurrence, and raises serious concerns.

Albert Einstein and some of his fellow physicists did regret their participation in the invention of those weapons. They later said they should not be used, that "there would be no limit to their destructive power", and that using the bombs in warfare would "open the door to an era of devastation on an unimaginable scale". And isn't that true? Imagine a world war in the 21st century, with NATO and Russia on different sides. If Russia's conventional forces start losing the war, and the very existence of the nation comes under threat, IS THERE ANY QUESTION THAT RUSSIA WILL USE NUCLEAR WEAPONS?

It is the greatest and craziest mistake ever made.

It is said that the pilot who conveyed the first atomic bomb to Hiroshima exclaimed, in the wake of the horror and rising mushroom cloud, "OH MY GOD, WHAT HAVE WE DONE?". Indeed!

---

Tozara

ToZaraWithaZ:
Hahahaha. It's really not a laughing matter though. A nuclear armageddon is a likely occurrence, and raises serious concerns.

Albert Einstein and some of his fellow physicists did regret their participation in the invention of those weapons. They later said they should not be used, that "there would be no limit to their destructive power", and that using the bombs in warfare would "open the door to an era of devastation on an unimaginable scale". And isn't that true? Imagine a world war in the 21st century, with NATO and Russia on different sides. If Russia's conventional forces start losing the war, and the very existence of the nation comes under threat, IS THERE ANY QUESTION THAT RUSSIA WILL USE NUCLEAR WEAPONS?

It is the greatest and craziest mistake ever made.

It is said that the pilot who conveyed the first atomic bomb to Hiroshima exclaimed, in the wake of the horror and rising mushroom cloud, "OH MY GOD, WHAT HAVE WE DONE?". Indeed!

Without Hitler would the bombs ever have been discovered? The war forced the discovery, which is why i said the destiny of the planet is to self destruct.

I have created a map of how they will be used, they will eventually be used at some point. Trust me.N In fact some weeks ago a 7 year old woman narrated a bad dream she dreamt of things she couldnt explain, and when i showed her pictures of the planes that carry the bomb, the flame when the first atomic bombs were used, she claimed that was it... So brother, get some pop corn like me , trust me, the next big war isn't Christian against Islam, it is humanity....fears, insecurities, etc

supersystemsnig:



Without Hitler would the bombs ever have been discovered? The war forced the discovery, which is why i said the destiny of the planet is to self destruct.

I have created a map of how they will be used, they will eventually be used at some point. Trust me.N In fact some weeks ago a 7 year old woman narrated a bad dream she dreamt of things she couldnt explain, and when i showed her pictures of the planes that carry the bomb, the flame when the first atomic bombs were used, she claimed that was it... So brother, get some pop corn like me , trust me, the next big war isn't Christian against Islam, it is humanity....fears, insecurities, etc

Lol. I agree with you. Nietzsche predicted that the greatest wars of history would be fought in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. The twentieth century lived up to his billing [World Wars I & II]. But the coming wars of this century will be on an unimaginable scale and ferocity. They might even be the FINAL wars - the wars that reveal what humanity's true values are. There's no doubt that they WILL DEFINITELY happen. The signs are already on the wall for all to see. By 2050, the cataclysm might be here. The dialectic speaks. Its final workings must transform the world or see it utterly destroyed. This is the cosmic equation. If humanity fails to step up, it will be up to another species on another planet to become Gods and dictate the future of the cosmos. SURVIVAL IS NOT COMPULSORY.

But I'm still clinging onto hope. I'm not as pessimistic about humanity's fate as you.

---

Tozara

ToZaraWithaZ:
Lol. I agree with you. Nietzsche predicted that the greatest wars of history would be fought in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. The twentieth century lived up to his billing [World Wars I & II]. But the coming wars of this century will be on an unimaginable scale and ferocity. They might even be the FINAL wars - the wars that reveal what humanity's true values are. There's no doubt that they WILL DEFINITELY happen. The signs are already on the wall for all to see. By 2050, the cataclysm might be here. The dialectic speaks. Its final workings must transform the world or see it utterly destroyed. This is the cosmic equation. If humanity fails to step up, it will be up to another species on another plantet to become Gods and dictate the future of the cosmos. SURVIVAL IS NOT COMPULSORY.

But I'm still clinging onto hope. I'm not as pessimistic about humanity's fate as you.

Do you think i'm pessimistic? I have seen things i can't explain to people. I don;t know how to start.... The world has already ended, but nah, not 2050. I wont quote the timeline, bt it will come, Muslim of Christian, my brother, have some pop corn near by, and some zobo, with these, we can be well prepared when it hits...

Seed banks and nuclear bunker won;t work, cause if unleashed, the entire system that supports living things on earth would have been badly destroyed,and recovery seemingly impossible. By the way, i saw the world destroyed by it some weeks ago...So, get ready...For me as a Christian, it's my time for the next realm, the world without destruction or death.

supersystemsnig:


Do you think i'm pessimistic? I have seen things i can't explain to people. I don;t know how to start.... The world has already ended, but nah, not 2050. I wont quote the timeline, bt it will come, Muslim of Christian, my brother, have some pop corn near by, and some zobo, with these, we can be well prepared when it hits...

Seed banks and nuclear bunker won;t work, cause if unleashed, the entire system that supports living things on earth would have been badly destroyed,and recovery seemingly impossible. By the way, i saw the world destroyed by it some weeks ago...So, get ready...For me as a Christian, it's my time for the next realm, the world without destruction or death.

It won't happen in Jesus' name.

ToZaraWithaZ:
It won't happen in Jesus' name.

Lol @ IJN...You've gotta be kiddin me...You're making me laff seriously.