1. Why does Jesus ask God to forgive his pagan persecutors(Luke 23:34)when God cannot forgive without belief in the cross?
2.why does Jesus ask Father to forgive if the son of man is given the authority to forgive sins

alfarouq:
1. Why does Jesus ask God to forgive his pagan persecutors(Luke 23:34)when God cannot forgive without belief in the cross?
2.why does Jesus ask Father to forgive if the son of man is given the authority to forgive sins

I believe we have some Christians who are more knowledgeable of the Bible than before.

Perhaps someone can answer this from as far back as 2017.

alfarouq:
1. Why does Jesus ask God to forgive his pagan persecutors(Luke 23:34)when God cannot forgive without belief in the cross?
2.why does Jesus ask Father to forgive if the son of man is given the authority to forgive sins

Jesus taught us that humans aren't our enemies, according to Jesus all humans behaving like enemies do have one thing or another they're targeting which makes them enemies to their neighbours!
Which means on a normal day all humans supposed to be one another's brother's keeper. The one and only enemy of mankind is Satan who confused the first human pair and made them rebel against their Creator! John 8:44

So Jesus prayed for his persecutors in line with his own teachings! Matthew 5:43-48

MaxInDHouse:


Jesus taught us that humans aren't our enemies, according to Jesus all humans behaving like enemies do have one thing or another they're targeting which makes them enemies to their neighbours!
Which means on a normal day all humans supposed to be one another's brother's keeper. The one and only enemy of mankind is Satan who confused the first human pair and made them rebel against their Creator! John 8:44

So Jesus prayed for his persecutors in line with his own teachings! Matthew 5:43-48

If Jesus has prayed for their guidance I would have accepted your explanation but nay he prayed for God to forgive them yet Christians who say that without believe in the cross, the trinity and divinity of Jesus, there is no salvation. I am sure you are aware that those guys did not believe in Jesus.

Do you know more than Jesus or Jesus doesn't know what he is saying. Perhaps it is the person that narrates and record this verse that made a mistake.

alfarouq:
1. Why does Jesus ask God to forgive his pagan persecutors(Luke 23:34)when God cannot forgive without belief in the cross?
2.why does Jesus ask Father to forgive if the son of man is given the authority to forgive sins

He's not praying for their salvation per say but forgiveness for crucifying Him. That the crucifixion should not be laid against them. Other sins they have committed and will commit is laid against them, but they were not to be punished for the crucifixion.

alfarouq:

If Jesus has prayed for their guidance I would have accepted your explanation but nay he prayed for God to forgive them yet Christians who say that without believe in the cross, the trinity and divinity of Jesus, there is no salvation. I am sure you are aware that those guys did not believe in Jesus.

Do you know more than Jesus or Jesus doesn't know what he is saying. Perhaps it is the person that narrates and record this verse that made a mistake.

Your Allah totally differs from the God of the Bible, it's your Allah that's particular about guidance and confusion as for the God of Israel His prophets including Jesus Christ are with them to GUIDE them, therefore it makes no sense praying for their guidance when they already had everything to guide them at their fingertips it's left to them either to avail themselves for the opportunity given to them or continue ignoring.

As for the CROSS, DIVINITY or TRINITY all these are mere Catholic dogmas which has nothing to do with Jesus of Nazareth. So Jesus prayed for his enemies just as he taught us to do for our enemies!

alfarouq:
1. Why does Jesus ask God to forgive his pagan persecutors(Luke 23:34)when God cannot forgive without belief in the cross?
2.why does Jesus ask Father to forgive if the son of man is given the authority to forgive sins

1. Where do you get the idea that before the death of Jesus Christ, God could not forgive Pagans or Gentiles without belief in th cross ?

2. Those who don't believe in God are judged only by the Father.

Kobojunkie:
1. Where do you get the idea that before the death of Jesus Christ, God could not forgive Pagans or Gentiles without belief in th cross ?

2. Those who don't believe in God are judged only by the Father.

In a conversation I had with a Christian, he said that Jesus is the only way to salvation and one only gets saved only when he believes in Jesus. I asked him a question which I am hoping you will also answer.

We all agree that Abraham, Moses etc are guided and righteous. They all came before Jesus. If Jesus is the only way to salvation, what is the faith of Abraham etc. And after their death, where was their soul before the birth of Jesus.

His answer was that "Abraham and Co also have to believe in Jesus before they will be admitted to paradise. After their death before the birth of Jesus, their soul is in hell. After Jesus was crucified (I don't believe he was), he travelled to hell to rescue the soul of Abraham and Co who believed in him after they saw him challenge and defeat the devil. ".

Those were his response. I don't know if you agree with that or not.

Coming back to your question, I didn't get the idea. It was statement that I heard from some Christians in my conversation with them. They said even those that lived and died before Jesus have to believe in his divinity as the "ch*ld of G*d" before they can receive salvation.

alfarouq:
1. In a conversation I had with a Christian, he said that Jesus is the only way to salvation and one only gets saved only when he believes in Jesus. I asked him a question which I am hoping you will also answer.

We all agree that Abraham, Moses etc are guided and righteous. They all came before Jesus. If Jesus is the only way to salvation, what is the faith of Abraham etc. And after their death, where was their soul before the birth of Jesus.

1b. His answer was that "Abraham and Co also have to believe in Jesus before they will be admitted to paradise. After their death before the birth of Jesus, their soul is in hell. After Jesus was crucified (I don't believe he was), he travelled to hell to rescue the soul of Abraham and Co who believed in him after they saw him challenge and defeat the devil. ".

Those were his response. I don't know if you agree with that or not.

2. Coming back to your question, I didn't get the idea. It was statement that I heard from some Christians in my conversation with them. They said even those that lived and died before Jesus have to believe in his divinity as the "ch*ld of G*d" before they can receive salvation.

1. The faith of Abraham was in God who made a Covenant with Him that promised Him forever in the land of Canaan much like the promise God made to the Jews.

As for the souls of Abraham, Moses and others, they remains exactly where it was before Jesus Christ, sleeping in the grave waiting to be resurrected as promised them by God.

1b. I don't agree with the wording of His answer since it isn't scriptural. All the prophets beginning from Abraham were explicitly promised Life(eternal) in the land of Canaan, and so, they wait in their Graves to this day for the resurrection of the dead which is yet to take place ofcourse.

The claim that Jesus Christ went to Hell(the grave) has nothing to do with that at all. Since the claim is that He went to the speak to spirits that existed back during the time of Noah - another story altogether.

2. Yes, in other to gain access into the Kingdom of God where Heaven(true life) and Hell(eternal damnation) are both domains in, everyone must be born-again. - John 3 vs 5 - 8 . No exception was made to this rule. And only those who bow in submission and obedience to the teachings (and commandments) of Jesus Christ will gain access through the Narrow Gate which leads to Heaven, where the Father is.

alfarouq:
1. I was discussing with a christian and he made the statement salvation is of the Jews and when i asked him what happened to the claim that believing in Jesus is the way to salvation, bearing in mind that most Jews are not only anti-Jesus, they go to the extent of calling him unprintable names such as an impostor, a child born out of wedlock, a blasphemer.

What according to Christianity will be the fate of such Jews in the afterlife? Are they going to heaven or hell?

2. To most modern Christians, a Jew can do know wrong, what is been frowned upon if done by a gentile becomes not only allowed but praised when done by Jews as most modern Christians believe. They will always defend themselves with a verse from their bible which says i will bless him who has blessed thee and i will curse him who has cursed thee.

Is the allegation of non-Christians that the christian God is only a Jewish God. why should there be separate rules for Jews and separate for gentiles

I see this as a related question to this one here.

1. If you read closely the details of the National Constitution which God gave to the Nation of Israel - the Nation of those who have the blood of Jacob coursing through their veins - God's promise to them stipulates a Life(eternal) and forever in the land of Canaan, the land He promised to them. - Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 20.. Well, that promise begins when the resurrection takes place. And since it has not happened, it is still waiting for the Jews who die in righteousness.

2. God established in this world, for His own inheritance, a Nation called Israel. That is what God chose to do. Later, God put forth a New Law for a Kingdom not of this world, the Kingdom of God where Heaven and Hell are domains in, and God promised that New Kingdom to all individuals - Jews and Gentiles alike - who will live by His New standard, Jesus Christ.

What God promised to the Jews, He excluded Gentiles from for His reasons. However, what God set up to give to individuals is His New Kingdom is greater than that which He gave only to the Jews. So, why covet that which is worth less?

alfarouq:
1. Why does Jesus ask God to forgive his pagan persecutors(Luke 23:34)when God cannot forgive without belief in the cross?
2.why does Jesus ask Father to forgive if the son of man is given the authority to forgive sins

bro, stop making the mistake of considering. Christianity as one of the major religions in the world with all your comparisons! Till tomorrow religion is still trying to fix what Adam broke. Without Adam's rebellion you will not have your religion which you're using to try to reach God without success today because God has already fixed it. If Adam's story is in your scripture, just forget religion(or trying to help God) like fighting for God or killing for God or trying to make comparisons to show how your religion is leading and believe in his blood for you today be saved!

tytachile:
Till tomorrow religion is still trying to fix what Adam broke. Without Adam's rebellion you will not your religion which your using to try to reach God without success because God has already fixed.

Adam and Eve made a choice to saddle mankind with the individual responsibility to finding God. Is he really to blame for the choices we continue to make even today?

Kobojunkie:
Adam and Eve made a choice to saddle mankind with the individual responsibility to finding God. Is he really to blame for the choices we continue to make even today?

thank God you admitted you have that record in your scripture! So Stop helping God fix what your first ancestor Adam broke, you can't do it through Islam, Hinduism. Judaism only the blood of Jesus can make up for that wrong choice!

Kobojunkie:
Adam and Eve made a choice to saddle mankind with the individual responsibility to finding God. Is he really to blame for the choices we continue to make even today?

well since you admitted Adams account is in your scripture. Those helping God to fix that wrong choice today through Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, christian religion( since Christianity is not religion but God giving man his life through Christ) all will never reach God except faith in what his blood did!