Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc - Religion - Nairaland
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Anambra Tragedy: God And Our Gross National Lunacy / Dark Energy/matter And The Ever Expanding Universe! / You Want 10% On My Gross Income ? Daylight Robbery !!!! (2) (3) (4)
| Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by justcool(m): 11:40pm On May 06, 2010 |
In order not to stray too much from the main topic of the thread: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-442544.0.html#msg6006754, I decided to open a new thread so that I can offer my perceptions on the questions that deepsight asked. In the thread: "Can thoughts become matter?" I made wrote the following: justcool: And deepsight asked the following questions: Deep Sight: |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by DeepSight(m): 12:40am On May 07, 2010 |
Thank you broda. But you have not answered my questions? |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by justcool(m): 2:43am On May 07, 2010 |
Deep Sight: Okay, I will answer you questions in two parts. First, I will offer my perceptions based on the knowledge mediated in the Grail Message, and then I will also offer some scientific facts. I am doing it this way so that we don’t get confused by the term "matter." The scientific definition of "matter" is not necessarily exactly the same with the Grail Message definition. Matter is just a term that both science and the Grail message uses. I hope you get what I mean. Science only deals with the physical, which according to the Grail Message is only a type of matter. In this particular post I will present matter in the light of the Grail Message. In my next post I will present matter in the light of science. Deep Sight: "Matter" in the sense of the Grail Message are the substances which are found below the animistic sphere. The spheres of matter lie below the animistic sphere. There many spheres(parts) in creation; ranging from the highest to the lowest, there are: The Primordial Spiritual part, the Spiritual part, the Animistic part, and lastly the Material part or spheres of matter. These parts of creation are arranged from the lightest(most refined) to the lowest(densest), according to the law of Gravity. By "parts" I do not mean planes; I am using the term "part" to describe many spheres and planes. To further clarify, the material part(spheres of matter) consists of two different species, which are Ethereal matter and Gross matter. Ethereal matter is a lighter and a more refined specie of matter than Gross matter. Consequently the spheres of ethereal matter lie above the sphere of Gross matter. Each sphere of matter can be divided into three major planes, generally speaking. Thus in the ethereal sphere, ranging from the finest(lightest) to the coarsest(heaviest), we have: Fine ethereal plane, Medium ethereal plane, and coarsest ethereal plane. Likewise in the sphere of Gross matter, ranging from the finest(lightest) to the coarsest(heaviest), we have: Fine Gross material plane, Medium Gross material plane, and coarsest or heavy Gross material plane. The plane Medium Gross matter or the plane Fine Gross matter is what people usually refer to astral planes. The physical world, to which the earth belongs, is the coarsest or heavy Gross material plane. One can also say that there are three types of Gross matter, (Fine gross matter, medium Gross matter, and coarse Gross matter). These types of Gross matter, owing to their weight forms the planes of Gross matter, according to the law of gravity and the law of attraction of homogeneous species. The same is applicable to Ethereal matter. Everything in our physical universe, our physical bodies, the earth, the stars, the sun, everything that is usually and easily observable with the physical eyes are all Coarse Gross matter; they are all made of Coarse gross material substances. Even those too small that can only be observed through telescopes, magnifying glasses and lenses, -- viruses, atoms and etc -- are all Coarse Gross matter; they are all made of Coarse gross material substances. Deep Sight: Good question! The common denominator that ranks all matter is "self immobility." Thus "inertia," if I may borrow the scientific term. All species of matter do not poses self mobility, they lack the ability to be mobile by themselves; thus they are lifeless and only functions as coverings(cloaks, bodies) This is peculiar with matter. The Primordial spiritual, the Spiritual, and the animistic species posses self mobility. I.e. man has a spiritual core which animates it; the animal has a core of animistic substance which animates the animal. However the man, on earth, wears the ethereal and Gross material bodies only as coverings; so does the animal. There is no being or creature in creation that carries a material substance(Ethereal matter or Gross Matter) as the innermost core or the animating core. All mobile creatures or beings carry either Primordial spiritual substance, spiritual substance, or Animistic substance as their animating core. Matter(both ethereal and Gross) only serve as coverings. The physical body is the outmost body a man wears on earth, it is a coarse gross material body, and it becomes lifeless as soon as the soul departs or detaches itself from it. Matter is lifeless, it has to be permeated by the animistic and animated by the animistic or spiritual before it becomes alive. Deep Sight: Thoughts which are produced by the brain, have forms and operate in the planes of Fine Gross matter. Thus thoughts are Fine Gross matter, they have forms and people can see them with their astral eyes. The physical eye which is Coarse Gross matter only clearly see a specie homogeneous its specie. Thus the physical eyes only see the physical; but under some situations the physical eyes can see some condensed astral forms. This does not violet the law of homogeneous species, since both astral and physical still belong to Gross matter. Strictly speaking, Gross matter can only see Gross matter; but certain conditions permits the physical eye(coarsest Gross matter) to see condensed medium Gross matter(astral). Even in such cases, the seeing will not be as clear as if it was seeing the physical. The physical cannever see any type Ethereal matter; as that will violet the law of attraction of homegeneouse species. Deep Sight: Since thoughts are produced by the brain which is a part of the physical body; disembodied sprits have no physical body therefore do not produce thoughts. But they still make decisions; Spirits make decisions with a part of thier spirits, just like the phiscal body make decision(thinks) with its brian. The spirits makes decisions and have volitions. The forms resulting from spiritual volitions are more powerful than the forms resulting from thought volitions(brain activity). Spirits in the higher planes, do not need to think, they pecieve intuitively. Thinking is only needed in the plane of Coarsest Gross matter(physical); it ironic that it is this thinking that leads men astray. Thus thinking is of an inferior order, anybody who thinks he can grasp God in his thinking is fooling himself. Even while on earth, man should place his intuitive perception above his "thinking" or intellectual activity. The Spiritual posses the ability to make use of the Neutral principle power in creation. Every decision of the spirit taps into this power and makes an impression on the animistic substance, which then gathers ethereal matter and creates a form corresponding to the nature of the volition. Thus forms of spiritual volition are very strong, they are really living things because their innermost core is animistic substance; they are animated by the animistic substances although they do not posses a will of their own, they only carry out the volition that produced them, ie a form created out of a desire for distry will only destroy, it can never do somthing other than destruction. To these belong demons, and also some benovalent beings, depending on the nature of the volition of the spirit. The physical brain cannot tap into this Neutral principal power in the same way as the spiritual can, the physical brain can only make use of a gradation of this Neutral Principal Power and thus forms arising from thoughts are of inferior order. They are mare phantoms which operate in the planes of fine Gross matter. This Neutral principal power is the power that sustains all. It comes only from God, and all creatures are dependant on it. As it descends into creation it splits into gradations. Of all the species in creation, the Primordial spiritual beings can make use of the highest gradation of this power; the spiritual makes use of a lower gradation of the same power; the animistic makes use of a more lower gradation; and finally, the material can only make use of the lowest gradation of this power. Much like electric power that has to be split and stepped down in order to be feed to many appliances. Some appliances are powered by low energy or stepped-down electric energy, while others can handle a less stepped down energy. This is why forms arising from spiritual volitions are far stronger than form arising from thought volitions. It also logically follows that forms of volitions of the Primodial spiritaul beings are stronger than forms of the volitions of spiritual. This power is called Neutral because one can use it for either good or bad. But every creature will give account for how he uses Gods energy |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by justcool(m): 5:43am On May 07, 2010 |
I will return soon with another post about the nature of "Thoughts" based on scientific researches. I have to run now, I'm very buss today. Thanks |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by justcool(m): 3:55pm On May 07, 2010 |
Now scientifically on matter. Science defines matter as any thing that has inertia and occupies space. Some people substitute the word "inertia" with mass. Inertia is the resistance that objects offer to motion. If we put all these together we came safely say that matter (1) occupies a space, and (2) has mass or resists motion(Has inertia). Inertia is actually inseparable from energy, ie you need energy to overcome inertia. Objects lose mass to lose inertia, and consequently mass and energy is inseparable. Some scientists believe that you can't have energy exist without mass. Einstein also figured out that mass and energy are related, (E=mc2). Although there are things like photons which apparently do not have mas but yet posses energy, but this is a different issue that will require a lot of explanation. I tired of long posts therefore I will not go into that now. All I can say now is that photons actually have mass. But what is mass? Mass is actually a property of matter. Now many scientists have come to terms that thoughts are energy; like all energy they have effect on their environment. Resarches on the effects of thoughts on water and plants are well known. If thoughts are energy and energy cannot exist without mass; then thoughts have mass. So now thoughts have one of the major things that qualify matter. It remains the second thing:--Does it occupy a space. This is not easily scientifically proved; just like one cannot easily prove, scientifically that light does or does not occupy space. We know about "wave particle duality" nature of light. So we cannot disqualify light as not being particle(matter); neither can we disqualify it as not being wave. It depends on wheather it is being observed or not. Since both thoughts and light exhibit the same tendencies(they both can be proved to have mass and energy), "thoughts" should receive the same qualification that we give light. Therefore thoughts cannot be easily disqualified as non- matter. I believe that in the future, as science progresses they will understand more about things light, and "thoughts." I believe that in the future science will get closer to astral matter and will conclusively labell thoughts as a type of matter, although not physical matter. Already scientists are working on being able to control equipments with thoughts. In the future there will be no need anymore for remote controls, one can turn on his TV or any electronic just by thinking about. You can send thoughts to your TV and turn it on. Already a lot of progress has been made on building artificial body parts (Legs, arms and etc) which can be contolled by thoughts, just like we move our arms by thinking about moving it. Some scientists are already suspecting that there must be a different type of matter than the physical. Stuffs like "dark energy, anti-matter, and anti-particles," have not been proven as not being matter, and yet they are not physical matter. Some think that these phenomenons are effects of a different type of matter than the well known physical matter. Here are some interesting articles on researches done on "thoughts": http://www.som.org/2laws/universallaws/cause&effect.htm http://covertress..com/2010/03/thoughts-matter.html http://www.informiti.net/articledetail.php?artid=56945&catid=271 What I have written in this particular post is just my reflections, based on my limited knowledge of science, those who know more about science can better educate me if my science is wrong. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by DeepSight(m): 6:54pm On May 07, 2010 |
If thoughts are energy and energy cannot exist without mass; then thoughts have mass Well this is a case. Does God have energy? Certainly. God is the fountain of all energy. If God has energy and energy cannot exist without mass, then God has mass - a property of matter. This reasoning would lead you to classify God as matter. That is clearly untenable. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by DeepSight(m): 7:06pm On May 07, 2010 |
Since thoughts are produced by the brain which is a part of the physical body; disembodied sprits have no physical body therefore do not produce thoughts. This is another case. You make it appear as though the physical body by itself is a separate being from the spirit and that it has its separate thought mechanism. I would have thought that the brain is A TOOL used by the spirit to apprehend the world around it. For this reason my perception is that promptings come from the spirit and the brain is merely a tool for rationalizing existence in the physical world thereon Spirits have thoughts. Even God has thoughts. I am at odds that you seek to state that the thoughts that a living man has are altogether a different thing from the thoughts of a disembodied spirit. In this regard let me very carefully say that teh brain, in my view, is a mechanism for processing thoughts in the physical - and not necessarily the origin of the thoughts. The thoughts are intangible perceptions of the spirit. In this i urge you to consider carefully the nature of dreams. I doubt that the brain could contrive dreams in an unconscious state without any prompting. The very fact that thoughts and pictures float about within the brain is enough evidence of the activity of the spirit - the consciousness of the spirit - the vitality and life with which the spirit dwells within the physical - using the brain as a tool for the apprehension of these things in the physical. A living man, as a spirit himself, has promptings and spiritual perceptions that are in themselves thoughts of his spirit - even whilst he is on earth. The distinction you seek to draw is far too blurry to be cognised. When the man dies, those promtings, perceptions and ideas still remain. And they are no differnt from that which he had when on earth - because at all times he remained a living spirit. If disembodied spirits have no thoughts then the entitre concept of spiritual existence will be a nihilistic one. A non-existence. Given that they must be presumed to have thoughts, it appears a contradiction to state that such thoughts are material things. Let me put two questions to you. You state that the spirit has different cloaks (the Grail message states this). It supposedly has a fine ethereal cloak - which is still matter. 1. Would you say that that material is of the same substance as the thoughts of a disembodied spirit? 2. Is it possible that there is such a thing as a spiritual brain - given that the physical is only a reflection of the spiritual? |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by justcool(m): 10:18pm On May 07, 2010 |
Deepsight!!!!! I love you men! You ask good questions, I like the way you think. Now follow me carefully and I will answer your questions. Deep Sight: Ha Ha Ha! I separated my post into two; the first one with everything, and the second one dealing with only the physical realm. Please don't confuse the two. What I stated about mass and energy is from my knowledge of science which deals only with the physical. You cannot directly apply physical laws to God who is far far far above the physical realm. Although the physical laws are a manifestation of Gods laws; the laws adapt the nature of the specie concerned. The way a particular law manifests in the physical world is not necessarily the way it does in the spiritritual realm. In order not make a long post I whish I can stop here but if this doesn't answer your question I will go further. But let me give an example. There is law that manifests in the physical ream. This law states that everything that exist must go through the four processes of (1)birth, (2)ripeness, (3)over-ripeness and (4)decay. We can observe this law in everything physical, thus in the physical only the components parts are eternal, and continually go through the four stages that I described above. Even the whole physcal universe go through these stages as science has confirmed. Even planets, stars, our physical bodies and etc go through these stages. But can one say that since God exist, He also goes through these four stages. No! Or can one say that the spiritual go through these four stages? No! With the Spiritual, it is a different species altogether. Another example might suffice. One can say that every healthy and mature body every now and then feels the desire to eat and sometimes to have intimacy. This is a requirement for the sustenance of the healthy body. This is a normal biological need of the physical body; as long as by "body" we mean the physical, this law is correct. But you cannot say that since the spirits in paradise have bodies, they have to eat and have intimacy too. This is wrong for in the spiritual we dealing with a different species, and consequently the law of sustenance of the body manifest differently. The physical body is a different species from the spiritual; fuelled by a different energy. But the conclusion that you drew from by statement is not altogether misguided; it only lacks careful attention to detail. Now pay attention to the words in brackets and you will see facts that you missed. "Does God have energy?(Yes but what type of energy) Certainly. God is the fountain of all energy. If God has energy(Yes but what type of energy) and energy cannot exist without mass, then God has mass(Yes but What type of mass) - a property of matter( not all mass are physical, if we consider mass substance." A better conclusion would be: If God has Divine unsubstantial energy, and energy cannot exist without mas, then God has Divine unsubstantial mass-- definitely not a property of matter, but rather a property of Divine unsubstantiality. You forgot to keep in mind that the energy that physical can absorb is only a gradation of the Neutral Principle power; I explained this at first. Lets call this energy the physical energy. But God uses Divinity unsubstantiate and undiluted Neutral Principle power; and is the source the pure and undiluted Neutral Principle power. Thus lets call God's energy Divine unsubstantial energy; the first degration of it is Divine substantial energy which the Divine beings above creation use. Thus physical energy cannot exist without physical substance which is called mass by scientists. By the same token Divine energy cannot exist without Divine substance. Therefore you don't expect a Divine being who uses Divine energy to have physical mass You cannot mix them up my friend. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by vescucci(m): 12:25am On May 08, 2010 |
My word. Headaches. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by justcool(m): 4:25am On May 08, 2010 |
Deep Sight: The physical body is completely separate from the Spirit, they belong to different species of creation. Yes the spirit and the physical body have different mechanism of expression. Before I proceed, lets define what we mean "thoughts": By "thoughts" we mean that which is produced during brain activity. I know the word "thought" can mean different things; Here is exactly what I mean by "thoughts" According to dictionary: 1.the product of mental activity; that which one thinks: a body of thought. 2.a single act or product of thinking; idea or notion: to collect ones thoughts. 3.the act or process of thinking; mental activity: Thought as well as action wearies us. 11.the intellectual activity or the ideas, opinions, etc., characteristic of a particular place, class, or time: Greek thought. Thus by thinking I mean mental activity, or that which is generated through brain activity. By "Brain" I mean the physical organ in our heads though which we think. I repeat each body --spiritual, animistic, ethereal, and physical-- has it mechanism of expressing or processing the volition which results from the spirit; or the impressions which comes from the outside. Deep Sight: Yes the brain is a tool, even the whole physical body is a tool that is animated by the soul with its spiritual core. But this does not mean that everything that body does is directly controlled by the spiritual core. The physical body is a living tool and not just a dead tool like hammer. An airplane is a tool which man uses for transportation, but this does not mean that every movement of the airplane is contriled by man. The pilot can fall asleep in mid air or he can even leave the controls, the airplane will not stop on that account, it will continue moving. Only that it may now head towards distruction. The airplane represents the physical body; the movement of the airplane represents the intellect(thoughts production); while the pilot represents the spirit. Without the pilot the airplane cannot start moving by itself. But when the pilots fuels it and turns on the engine and accelerates, he gives the airplane the power to move. He has too keep alert and steer the airplane to the desired direction. But if he falls asleep the airplane will continue moving. Thus the human spirit which wears the body can fall asleep or become too indolent to control the intellect which will not stop producing thoughts on that account. I will give another example, Imagine a ancient soldier riding a chariot which is pulled by a house. The horse is the soldiers tool. The soldier makes an impression on the house letting it know which direction to go; then the horse carries out the order by moving towards the direction. If the house is not well trained, it becomes a bad tool which will refuse to carry out the soldier's orders. Here the horse represents the physical body while the soldier represents the spirit. The spirit's volition makes an impression on the animisct, this impression of this voltion is sent to the brain through the ethereal body and astral. The back brain picks up this impression and sends it to the frontal brain(intelect) which is left to think out a way to bring about this volition in the physical ream. The frontal brain receives impressions from both the back brain and the senses. What it receives from the senses(IE the eyes) it sends to the back brain which then transform it and send to the spirit via the astral, ethereal and animistic body. It happened that mankind has made use of their frontal brain so much that it has grown out of proportion to the back brain. The working of the two brains are no longer as it should. Thus the frontal brain is now out of control and the back brain can no longer catch up with it. The impressions from the outside no longer reaches the spirit, and the promptings from the spirit is no longer recognised by the frontal brain, and thus no longer headed. You now see why Christ said, "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." I will give you an example to illustrate how the spirit and brain work: A human spirit gets filled with the volition help sick people; this volition arises inside the spirit and makes and impression on the back brain via the subtler cloaks, like I already explained. Once this impression reaches the frontal brain, it is left to the frontal brain(intelect) to decide how to implement this volition in the physical world. Thus this man may decide to go to school and become a doctor. He learns biology, calculus and etc; he becomes a doctor and starts to help sick people. When he passes on(When the physical falls away--Death), he leaves everything he learnt(Calculus and etc) with his brain. All the intelectual learnings(Calculus and etc) will disintegrate along with his brian because they are gross material knowledge; intelect and thoughts, although refined still belong to gross matter. However this volition to help people is still in the spirit and has developed even more, due to this man working with sick people the spirit has learnt kindness and love. By having implented this volition in the physical realm, the spirit has sown seed which will grow, rippen and drops fruits on the spirit. By struggling to implement this volition, the volition grow strong in the spirit and bore many fuits. Thus what the spirit gained from being a doctor is love, kindness, patience and compassion for the sick. These are the impressions that can find thier way to the spirit not calculus and biology. If this particular spirit reincarnates, he will exhibit love and compassion which he learnt from being a doctor but he will not know anything about calculus and biology, because he is now equipped with a new physical body and a new brain. Thus when he was thinking or memorising for his exams or when he is cracking his brain trying to solve calculus, it was not the spirit that was directly thinking or memorising calculus, rather it is the brain propelled by the spirit's volition to be a doctor and help people. I another example: A man is filled with spiritual volition to worship God. This impression made by this volition, propels the frontal brain to decide that he goes to church and join the service. On his way to church the man sees a scantly dressed woman. This impression from the outside reaches the frontal brain and lust arises in this man. Now this man stands in-between these two compulsions. One from his spirit telling to go to church, the order from his senses telling him to chase after the woman. Due to the fact that he has become a slave to his instrument(his physical body), he negelects the promting of his spirit and chases after the woman. Once again you see why, " the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." Much like the soldier riding a horse; if the horse(the soldier's tool for transport) is not well trained, and if the connection through which the soldier controls the horse is weak or distorted. In the middle of an important journey, the horse may see a pool of water and decide to stop and take a drink. Since the soldier is too indolent to control the unruly horse and the reins though which he controls the horse is distorted, the journey may never be made. Thus the soldier becomes a slave of his tool. Dear deepsight, this is very easy to understand, just pay attention to your thoughts. You will hear your senses speaking through your intelect, and at the same time your will perceive your spirit speaking to you through your conscience. The intelect is given to man so that man will be able to anchor his volition in the physical world. Success of a kind can only be achieved by the same kind. Thus the spirit cannot achieve success on the physical world directly, because spirit and physical are different species. The spirit needs the brain which is physical to achieve physical success. You have to keep in mind that your physical body is alive, although animated by the power of your spirit. As a living thing it responds to stimulus from the outside, and it also receives stimulus from the soul. When you are hungry, automatically thoughts of food will fill your head; it is not your spirit that is hungry and the thoughts are induced by your hunger not by the impression of your spirit. The spirit is always right; the intuitive perception can never be wrong, the spirit knows the will of God because the spirit is actually a part bearer of this will. If all the thoughts that our brain produce are from the prompting of our spirits, then men will never make any mistake. Mistake only arise when (1)There is distortion(overcutivation of the intellect-- the frontal brain no longer receives impressions from the spirit because of the deformity of the co-operation of the two brains), (2) Indolence of the spirit (The spirit is too lazy to make its volition known, and the intelect dominates). (3) Propensity(the spirit indulging in a particular vibration too much, has become a slave to the vibration) Deep Sight: If by thoughts" we mean the intelect, or the activity of the physical brain, then it is impossible for spirits without physical bodies to have thoughts as much as it is impossible for God to have thoughts. If by "thoughts" you mean the ability to decide, to analyse and to perceive impressions from the outside, then disembodied spirits have "thoughts" But it is wrong to call these "thoughts," by thoughts we mean here is activity of the physical brain. Deep Sight: I never stated that "the thoughts that a living man has are altogether a different thing from the thoughts of a disembodied spirit." The spirit makes decisions which I call volitions. Volitions take form in the ethereal plane, animated by animistic substance. However for this volition to be carried out the physical world, it makes an impression in the brain like I explained. As the brain (weighs) thinks on how to accomplish this in the physical world, thoughts arises from the brain; these thoughts have forms(phantoms) too and operate in the planes of fine gross matter. If the spirit is not wearing a physical body then thought forms(phantoms) will not arise; only the forms of volition would arise. Thought forms can also arise without the promting of the spiritual core. The brain can generate thoughts due to outside stimulation and the senses. Thought forms are magnetic, they can influence an idle brain to generate thoughts of like nature. Much like floating signals can interfair with an idle CCTV and cause it to produce a corresponding picture. This happens when the camera that feeds the CCTV is turned off, or if the signal that the camera sends is too weak. This is a good randering of what happens with the spirit and brian. When the spirit is asleep or too indolent, the brian is at the mercy of thoughts forms which float around the planes of fine gross matter. Thus a man in America may end up comiting a crime that was thought-out by a man in Nigeria. It is not all the thoughts and promtings that arises in your brain are from the promptings your spirit. The idle mind is the devil's workshop. Deep Sight: The brain remains active during sleep. Scientists have done many researches on this. Due to excessive mental activity, the brain continues racing even during sleep; just like a car in high speed continues acceleration even when the driver has taken his foot away from the accelerator. This is one of the reasons why people don't remember the experiences they have in the beyond when the soul leaves the physical body and sojorns in the beyond as often happens during sleep. The continued activity of the frontal brain interfairs with the pictures sent from the soul which has projected out of the physcal body during sleep. It is not always the prompting of the spiritaul core of man that causes him to dream. If you fall asleep with your TV or radio on, while you are asleep your brain will interpret the sound that comes form the radio or TV and send it to you as pictures; Thus you will dream of it. Events around you while you sleep can trigger your brain in to picturing the events, in other words make you dream. The brain is very sensitive, not only to the spiritual core of man. The brain is like an antenna; like all antenas it is very sensitive. Also due to excessive intelectual activity, the brain activity which had gained momentun during the day cannot just stop being active when you fall asleep. Much like some modern electronics that store energy while functioning and even after turning them off, some of the process still continue for a while, ie the cooling system or fan may continue untill the electronic has cooled down. Scientific studies has shown that the brain remains active during sleep and even during unconsciousness. Check out the article in this link: http://psychology.about.com/od/statesofconsciousness/p/dream-theories.htm I know that there are dreams which are prmptings from the spiritual core of man but not all of them. The condition of the brian plays big role in the transmition of these pictures from the soul. We can talk more about the brain later. Deep Sight: 1. Yes, if by "disembodied spirits," you mean souls in the ethereal world. A soul can live in an ethereal environment or plane created by himself, without even knowing that he created his environment. He can even see the god he created with his volition, he can his spiritual master and live for decades and even centuries without knowing that it is his intuition that creates and animates his environment. Actually there are many planes in the beyond created by spirits. Hell is one of them This is a deep subject which we can discuss later. 2. Yes, each body has an organ for processing, apprehending, and receiving information. But I will not call them "brain." Brain is the name given to the organ of the physical body used processing information. The physical is a reflection of the spiritual body; each body obey the same laws but the laws are adapted to the nature of the species. I have said this already. An example: every body needs and takes in energy for sustenance. The physical obeys this law by ingesting food(physical matter which carries energy); the ethereal, animistic, and spiritual body do not ingest any substance into their mouths. Due to the nature of these species, they absorb energy directly from the living energy that flow in their planes. Just as I will not call the organs of the spirit the name "brain," I will not ascribe "thinking" to what the spirit does. Such labelling will cause confusion; the ethereal body has ethereal organs, the spiritual body has spiritual organs. Each body obey the same laws of creation in a manner corresponding to the nature of thier species; or in the manner that the law minifests in thier realm. This is why I will not call any spiritual organ "brain," because the way the brain process information may be very different from the way the spiritual organ does. Just like the way the different bodies nourish themselves are different--one eats with the mouth; another aborbs energy straight from the plane. Deepsight Thanks you so much. I appreciate the fact that you take time to read my long submissions. Remain blessed. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by DeepSight(m): 1:30pm On Aug 05, 2010 |
justcool: We seem to have a fundamentally different conception of what thoughts are. I suppose that is the thrust of this thread anyway: to iron that difference out if possible. I am afraid that the definitions you set out above are altogether insufficient for the purpose of this discussion for a number of reasons. In the first place let me say very carefully that – existence itself is a consolidation of infinite ideas, conceptions, realities and possibilities. The apprehension of any idea, the conception of anything is what I would refer to as a thought. For me it would be useless semantics to quibble over the source of such thoughts – for I am well convinced that non-physical beings may also have ideas and conceptions: - may apprehend ideas and may conceive things - and it is certain that having ideas and conceptions are analogous to having thoughts. 1. It is a given that God itself has ideas which it conceives. Such ideas manifest as creation and acts of will of the transcendental God. It would be nothing but a wasteful focus on semantics to claim that such ideas are cannot be described as the thoughts of God. 2. God does not have a physical brain. 3. As God does not have a physical brain and yet is capable of ideas and conceptions it is manifest to me that in spiritual matters a physical brain is not required for possession of ideas and conceptions which is what thoughts are. Yes the brain is a tool, even the whole physical body is a tool that is animated by the soul with its spiritual core. But this does not mean that everything that body does is directly controlled by the spiritual core. The physical body is a living tool and not just a dead tool like hammer. An airplane is a tool which man uses for transportation, but this does not mean that every movement of the airplane is contriled by man. The pilot can fall asleep in mid air or he can even leave the controls, the airplane will not stop on that account, it will continue moving. Only that it may now head towards distruction. The airplane represents the physical body; the movement of the airplane represents the intellect(thoughts production); while the pilot represents the spirit. Without the pilot the airplane cannot start moving by itself. But when the pilots fuels it and turns on the engine and accelerates, he gives the airplane the power to move. He has too keep alert and steer the airplane to the desired direction. But if he falls asleep the airplane will continue moving. Thus the human spirit which wears the body can fall asleep or become too indolent to control the intellect which will not stop producing thoughts on that account. This is a good analogy regarding the relationship of the spirit and the body but does nothing to describe the nature of a thought. We are agreed that the physical is a tool of expression. We are also agreed that it is a living tool which is animated by the spirit/ soul. The question is – what is the nature of thoughts which the living man has? 1. We are agreed that the thoughts cannot be physical matter: physical matter has definite physical properties which thoughts clearly do not possess. In this we can find safe landing with the scientific definition of matter which I am aware you are very much at home with: without further ado it is obvious that that definition may never be applied to an immaterial thing such as a thought. 2. Ethereal matter. What is ethereal matter? I would like to believe that it is a reference to substance in the ethereal plane which is not animate. Now in this it seems to me that you are confusing the physical brain itself for the living ideas and conceptions that are transmitted through it. Let us take a quick example. A man is able to receive revelations or transmissions from the spiritual realm. In coming to apprehend what is transmitted and in articulating it, the man uses his physical brain. That does not mean that that which was transmitted was matter: for such must lead us to the absurdity of suggesting that God sends matter down to people as revelations. I will give another example, Imagine a ancient soldier riding a chariot which is pulled by a house. The horse is the soldiers tool. The soldier makes an impression on the house letting it know which direction to go; then the horse carries out the order by moving towards the direction. If the house is not well trained, it becomes a bad tool which will refuse to carry out the soldier's orders. Here the horse represents the physical body while the soldier represents the spirit.Good, so between Horse, Soldier and Chariot, where are the thoughts? 1. The Soldier is the spirit 2. The Horse is the Body 3. Would you say that the thoughts are – a. From the Soldier or b. From the Horse Clearly the thoughts are from the Soldier and the Horse is merely a tool in that regard. Thus in the same way the thoughts of a sentient being cannot be the product of gross matter. That is a contradiction in terms. That amounts to suggesting that physical things are what give life to spiritual things instead of the other way round. The spirit's volition makes an impression on the animisct, this impression of this voltion is sent to the brain through the ethereal body and astral. The back brain picks up this impression and sends it to the frontal brain(intelect) which is left to think out a way to bring about this volition in the physical ream. Given that this is correct still does nothing to indicate that the thoughts produced by the brain are physical things. Clearly they are not physical things for they do not have the properties of physical matter. Nor can they be classed as ethereal matter for they are live fluid ideas and conceptions which grow and change. A human spirit gets filled with the volition help sick people; this volition arises inside the spirit and makes and impression on the back brain via the subtler cloaks, like I already explained. Once this impression reaches the frontal brain, it is left to the frontal brain(intelect) to decide how to implement this volition in the physical world. Thus this man may decide to go to school and become a doctor. He learns biology, calculus and etc; he becomes a doctor and starts to help sick people. I agree with this analogy entirely, but yet again this does nothing to show that the thoughts derived from the brain are material things. I think you are confusing the thoughts with the brain itself. Is the brain a thought? Or does it process thoughts? I would think the latter. [b]Now this is the argument I will put to you: namely that it is not apt to describe something as being material, matter, or physical simply because it is processed by or through the physical brain and you must note the following very carefully – 1. The brain processes emotions – does this mean that happiness, jealousy, anger – are all physical, material things that have the properties of physical matter? I ask you: is happiness matter? Is anger physical matter? ? ? 2. The brain processes a consciousness of self – does this mean that your consciousness of self is itself a material thing? Is your consciousness of self physical matter? Does that consciousness have the properties of matter? Can you touch it? Is it not entirely immaterial, notwithstanding that it is processed through the material brain? 3. Finally – and this is the clincher – the brain actually handles the entire existenceand sojourn of the spirit in the material world: in that it articulates the world around it, stores its memories, processes its self consciousness, its thoughts and its feelings, communicates with the world around it and with other beings within the world: all of these the brain does as a tool for the spirit which we agree on: does the fact that the brain virtually processes the spirits physical sojourn, RENDER THE SPIRIT A MATERIAL THING? DOES THAT RENDER IT A PHYSICAL THING? ? OR EVEN ETHEREAL MATTER? NO! NO! ! NO! ! ! Accordingly I need to make the point clear: that something is processed by or through the brain is no reason to term it matter or material or physical: otherwise the spirit itself will be termed matter, and every emotion will be termed matter and we will find canon for the strange notion that living fluid thoughts are matter.[/b] Dear deepsight, this is very easy to understand, just pay attention to your thoughts. You will hear your senses speaking through your intellect, and at the same time your will perceive your spirit speaking to you through your conscience. Very good. This will help elucidate the point I am making. Here you have stated that two things may speak to one’s thoughts – the senses and the spirit. The mistake I believe you are making is that you are equating the senses with thoughts – whereas it is rather obvious that thoughts are the living and fluid ideas which emanate from the man – either from his spirit, senses, or whatever. The spirit is NOT the thought, just as surely as the senses are NOT the thought. The thought is a living fluid idea or conception. You seem to articulate things in such a fashion that amounts to suggesting that the physical brain is itself thought. No, it processes thoughts. The intelect is given to man so that man will be able to anchor his volition in the physical world. Success of a kind can only be achieved by the same kind. Thus the spirit cannot achieve success on the physical world directly, because spirit and physical are different species. The spirit needs the brain which is physical to achieve physical success. Thus as I stated the brain processes the spirit’s self-awareness, consciousness and activity in the physical world. Does that make the spirit gross or ethereal matter? Certainly not. You have to keep in mind that your physical body is alive, although animated by the power of your spirit. As a living thing it responds to stimulus from the outside, and it also receives stimulus from the soul. When you are hungry, automatically thoughts of food will fill your head; it is not your spirit that is hungry and the thoughts are induced by your hunger not by the impression of your spirit. Fine, but you are still missing the point. The point is the nature of the thoughts. Are the thoughts a physical thing? No. The thoughts ARE NOT your brain and the thoughts ARE NOT the food. The thoughts are the living idea. That is not a physical thing. The spirit is always right; the intuitive perception can never be wrong, the spirit knows the will of God because the spirit is actually a part bearer of this will. If all the thoughts that our brain produce are from the prompting of our spirits, then men will never make any mistake. Mistake only arise when (1)There is distortion(overcutivation of the intellect-- the frontal brain no longer receives impressions from the spirit because of the deformity of the co-operation of the two brains), (2) Indolence of the spirit (The spirit is too lazy to make its volition known, and the intelect dominates). (3) Propensity(the spirit indulging in a particular vibration too much, has become a slave to the vibration) Do you suggest to me that a disembodied spirit may never have a negative volition aside from that which the physical brain contrives? If that were the case then all spirit beings would never have any dark or negative volitions or propensities – since they do not have physical brains? Is this what you put forward? If by thoughts" we mean the intelect, or the activity of the physical brain, then it is impossible for spirits without physical bodies to have thoughts as much as it is impossible for God to have thoughts. I have already explained that that is a limited definition which is not apt for this discourse. If by "thoughts" you mean the ability to decide, to analyse and to perceive impressions from the outside, then disembodied spirits have "thoughts" But it is wrong to call these "thoughts," by thoughts we mean here is activity of the physical brain. I see no reason to make such a hair-splitting distinction. Why is it wrong to call such thoughts? If the spirit is not wearing a physical body then thought forms(phantoms) will not arise; only the forms of volition would arise. I see here that you make a distinction between the nature of thought-forms and the nature of volition-forms. 1. Would the nature of a thought-form of love be different from the nature of a volition-form of love AND MORE CRITICALLY APT TO THE DISCOURSE – 2. WOULD EITHER FORM BE A MATERIAL THING? Thought forms can also arise without the promting of the spiritual core. The brain can generate thoughts due to outside stimulation and the senses. Thought forms are magnetic, they can influence an idle brain to generate thoughts of like nature. The question is if those thought-forms are matter. Just as I will not call the organs of the spirit the name "brain," I will not ascribe "thinking" to what the spirit does. Such labelling will cause confusion Frankly, I understand this: and I am in step with it: unfortunately it misses the question. The question is whether thoughts are matter. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by justcool(m): 12:03am On Aug 06, 2010 |
LOL@Deepsight. You seem to have completely deviated from the point of the thread. Before we go any further, let me remind you of how this thread started: A gentleman in another thread said, "In meditation u are required to visualize which is a form of controlled thoughts and taught by mystics and some pastors."https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-442544.0.html#msg6006754 The thoughts that we are talking about are that type that is explained above by the gentleman who started the other thread. I narrowed down the 'thought' that we are talking about by giving you definitions. I know that the word 'thought' can mean so many things even ideas. The thoughts that we are talking about are that which emanates from the brain; that which is visualized during meditation; not concepts or ideas. Deep Sight: It doesn’t lie with us or our opinions to decide on which ‘thought’ we are talking about. The gentleman who started the initial thread, from which this thread branched off, has already defined what he meant by 'thoughts.' He narrowed it down to visualization and 'controlled thoughts.' Deep Sight: What you are talking about here is not the 'thoughts' that we mean. What you described above are ideas, conceptions, and etc; not controlled thoughts or that which is visualized. I have already explained to you that non-physical beings do have ideas and conceptions and also process ideas and conception; however, the 'thoughts' that we are talking about is that which is produced in the physical brain. The brain gives ideas and conceptions a fine gross material cloak; it is these fine gross material cloaks that we call thoughts, controlled thoughts, or that which can be visualized by the brain. By the same token, the mouth gives ideas or thoughts a medium gross material covering, which we call, words. Words originate from the mouth, but the idea they convey do not come from the mouth. The same way, thoughts originate from the brain but the idea they convey do not originate from the brain. Deep Sight: The above is correct, and if you think that it is contrary to what I have been saying, then you need to reread my posts. We use the expression 'thoughts of God' as a figure of speech, becuase our words are inadiquate to describe God. You must not think that 'thoughts of God' imply that God does thinking or intelectual activity like we humans do. For example we have the expression "word of God." Does this imply that God actually speak like we do on earth? If so, what is the language that God speak? LOL If you believe that God's ideas manifests as creation which is tangible substance, then why do you shy away from accepting that thoughts of man also manifest as tangible substance and are also made of tangible substance. Havent you ever heard of the expression, "as above so below." Deep Sight: In spiritual matters the brain, which is physical is not needed for the spirit to process ideas and conceptions; but if the spirit needs to anchor this ideas and conceptions in the physical world, then the brain is needed. Because owing to difference in specie, the spirit can not directly deal with matter; the spirit needs a material tool(the physical body) to deal with matter. The brain is that part of the physical body where ideas and conceptions coming from the soul is cloaked in material substance or given material forms, thoughts. Deep Sight: I have said it many times, thoughts are fine gross matter, or better said they are made up of fine gross matter; they are tangible, have form and even weight, although far far lighter than the lightest coarse gross material substance(physical). Expressions like 'weighed down by a the thought' are not just figures of speech but they are from the sensing of a reality in creation. People have seen the forms of thoughts; the phantoms that men of the ancients used to see are thought forms. Some people still see them today. Ignorant people consider them gods or etc. Owing to homogeneity in species, thoughts can influence physical matter(coarse gross matter). Science is not very far from dealing with thoughts. Science already has recognized that thoughts carry energy. And where there is energy, there is mass. I know this may be hard to swallow but if you like I can elaborate on it. In-fact in the near future you can be able to turn on your TV with your thoughts. Certain electronics are already invented which can be controlled by thoughts; people with modern electric posterior legs can move it with thoughts. About mass and energy, when opportunity presents itself, we can go deeply into it. And compare the relationship between energy and gravity. Deep Sight: Thoughts are not immaterial. Thoughts are matter; although fine gross matter. Science deals with only physical matter or coarse gross matter. At the moment, science only considers thoughts as energy; it cannot easily be disqualified as matter by science, neither can it be categorically proved by science to matter. Just like 'light' which some scientists like to consider made up of particles(matter) while others consider it just a wave. It behaves like both. Deep Sight: Everything in the ethereal realm is made up of ethereal matter. Deep Sight: Please show me where I confused the brain with the living ideas that flow through it. The brain simply cloaks the impressions it receives from the soul; the brain cloaks these impressions with fine gross material substance. This is what happens when we are thinking. Or better said, the brain creates a fine gross material forms or rendering of impressions which come from the soul, the beyond, or the senses. It is this fine gross material forms or rendering of impressions that are thoughts. Thoughts originate from the brain. Deep Sight: I find it very absurd that you think that I suggested that thoughts(fine gross matter) come from the spiritual plane or from God. That completely negates my explanation. Drawing such conclusion only prove to me that you did not read my posts. I hope I am not wasting time making long posts. If you don read them, then let me know so that I can save my precious time and energy. I will repeat what I have been saying in other words. The man that you described above receives spiritual impressions from the spiritual realm to his spirit. However, if this man wants to anchor or replicate these impressions in the physical world he will either speak it, or write it in a book. This is where the brain comes in. For the man to write it in a book, first he will have to give it a gross material cloak; this he does by thinking about it. And this will only make it possible for the brain to articulate it and write it down. You have to think about the impressions received before you write or speak it. Thinking, writing and speaking all belong the physical world. The spirit makes an impression on the soul, which in turn makes an impression on the brain; based on the nature of the impression, the brain produces thoughts, then sends signals to the mouth to speak or the hands to write. I will give an example, when you push down your gas pedal; you are not sending motion to your tires. You are only sending gas(chemical) into your engine combustion cylinders. The engine is designed to convert chemical energy to mechanical energy. Saying that God sent matter to the man you described above is like saying that the driver sends mechanical energy to the tires. Another example, if you plug your Iron into the electric outlet; when you switch on the iron you allow electricity onto the iron. The iron is designed to convert electrical energy to heat energy. The source of the heat is the iron and not the electrical outlet. Saying that God sent matter to the man you described above is like saying that you send heat to the iron when you turned it on. Wrong!! What you sent into the iron is electrical energy not heat. Likewise what the man received from the spiritual plane is spiritual not material. Deep Sight: The thoughts are from the horse. Deep Sight: From the horse processing the impression that it received from the soldier. You can liken 'thoughts' to the movement of the horse. It originates from the horse; or it is the horse's rendering of the impression it received from the soldier. Deep Sight: Wrong, Impressions came from the soldier while the movements came from the horse. ‘Thoughts’, which is represented in my analogy by the movement of the horse, originates from the horse. I never said that physical things give life to spiritual things. From where do you deduce these wired conclusions!!! Definitely not from my post. The physical can only act as vessels or cloaks covering non-physical things. Deep Sight: I never said that thoughts are physical(coarse gross material) things; thoughts are fine gross matter. Neither have I ever said that thoughts are ethereal matter. Thoughts are matter, only fine gross matter. Despite appearing weightless when compared with physical things, the lightest thought is still heavier than anything ethereal is. There are many species of matter; I have taken time to explain this to you earlier. But I am not sure that you read my posts. Even the words you speak have forms which are medium gross matter and operate as tangible things in the realms of medium gross matter or astral plane. All these forms, either forms of thoughts or forms of words can condescend and have an effect on physical matter. You see now why visualization and meditation work. I only offer explanations here; in no way do I advocate these practices: visualization and meditation. One who knows the laws of creation would avoid such practices like the plague; they can be very harmful. Deep Sight: The brain processes subtle impressions from the soul to produce thoughts. Simple and short. Deep Sight: Here you have grouped many things into one. Genuine happiness is not an emotion per-se. I know that the word could have many meanings but nevertheless, genuine happiness streams from the soul. It can have a material covering and operate like an entity in the planes of matter. Happiness, a volition of the spirit, that streams from the soul can take on form in the ethereal plane, having animistic substance as its innermost core. The same impression can impress the brain to think, thus mold forms of happiness with fine gross matter. These, the forms molded by the brian(in other words thought) are matter all the way to their core, they are phantoms and are completely material. Both types of beings (benevolent phantoms and benevolent ethereal entities) have been seen by clairvoyant people. Happiness that streams from the spirit and is directed upwards, i.e. gratitude to God, can take on form in the spiritual planes and its influences can rise above the spiritual plane. This is how genuine prayers find their way up to the feet of the creator, God. The same is applicable to anger, except that anger can never rise above the ethereal realm. Strictly speaking anger is ealien to the spirit, aggression is a quality of the animistic not the spirit. But due to spiritual indolence and lookwarmness some spirits degernarate to indulging or producing ealien radiations like anger. Anger that streams from the soul can take on form in the ethereal plane, having animistic substance as its innermost core. The same impression can impress the brain to think angry thought, thus mold forms of anger with fine gross matter. These, the forms molded by the brian(in other words thought)are matters all the way to their core; they are malevolent phantoms and are completely material like thoughts. So yes the emotion that are processed in the brain are thoughts and are made up of matter. It could be fine gross matter or medium gross matter. An anger directed to a person takes on form and rushes towards that person who can either repel it or let it attach to him and harm him either emotionally or physically through condensation. It can only attach itself to the person it is intended for if the person carries a homogeneous emotion in him or if he is lukewarm spiritually. Form of anger belongs to one of the malovelent entities(beings) called demons. Furries, for example a forms of anger. Men have seen furries and have battled with them; and have seen how destroctive and harmful furries are. Some have asked why God created such destructive beings. The answer is that God never created them; they are works or men. So mark my words carefully: By thinking angry thoughts, one forms malovent phantoms. If the anger is so deep that it emanets from the soul(the core of which is the spirit), then in addition to the phantom, as the anger arises from the soul it forms a demon. This explains how witchcraft and etc work; and this also explains why it is possible to use physical items like charms to repel them. They are all made up of matter; phantoms are matter all the way and easily destroyed, while demons carry an animistic core covered by a material cloak or body. Demons could be very powerful. You must cease to regard any thing as being immaterial or not having a form. Everything even our words and thoughts take on forms and are material. Deep Sight: The brain does not process self-consciousness. Consciousness stems from the innermost core: from the spirit in case of man. After physical death, when the brain had fallen way along the physical body, consciousness remains with the departed man. Consciousness is a manifestation of mobility; thus life. I have already explained to you that the peculiar thing about matter is that it lacks self-mobility. Matter can never become conscious. Phantoms, which are material entities function like programmed chips; they actually lack self-consciousness. Deep Sight: The brain does not deal with the spirit; neither can the brain handle anything spiritual. The brain receives impressions from the soul, and not directly from the spirit. What then is the soul? The soul is the spirit cloaked in all the material bodies except the physical. So the soul is a spirit wearing animistic body and ethereal body; a departed soul may or may not wear an astral body depending on far it has transitioned into the beyond. The spirit makes impression on the animistic body, the animistic body makes impression on the ethereal body, and the ethereal body makes impression on the astral body, which in turn makes impression on the physical body or the brain. The brain can only work with impression received from the astral body because the astral body itself is also gross matter like the brain. The astral body is medium gross matter. Deep Sight: The brain being made of matter can only deal with matter. Success of any kind can only be achieved by the same kind; this is a manifestation of the law of homogeneous species. Also, the spirit is not processed by or through the brain. I don't know how you arrived at this conclusion. People are encouraged to grasp spiritual teachings with their intuition(or their spirit) because these teachings originate in a world too alien for the brain. Trying to understand spiritual things with you brain is a waste of time. The brain processes impressions from the soul; although these impressions can be said to have originated from the spirit, but they have to pass through transitional bodies and for the brain to handle them. Deep Sight: The thoughts that we are talking about here is not a 'living fluid idea'(whatever you mean by that) or conception. The thoughts that we are talking about are that which results from the thinking you do during visualization. Remember the gentleman talked about visualization; he used the expression 'controlled thoughts.' Are you familiar with the process of visualization, which the gentleman asked of? Let’s say that you want to be a lawyer in the future. You sit down and imagine yourself as a lawyer or you visualize yourself as a lawyer. This is a form of meditation that mystics teach and so many people claimed have worked for them. Like I said earlier I do not advocate such practices; but I will give a glimpse of how it works. When you are visualizing or meditating you are actually creating those things you visualize, you are forming them in the planes of fine or medium gross matter. These things are real and tangible in those planes, and being gross matter they can have a direct influence on physical(coarse gross matter). They can condescend into the physical by forming an energy around you. With their influx they influence the physical to form a physical representation of them. Honestly I don't want to go deep into this issue, in fear of arousing poeple's curiosity to indulge in such practices which can cause great harm. The ancients, especially the ancients Egyptians were very versed in this. Deep Sight: Like I said earlier this conclusion is wrong. A better conclusion would be that the spirit(actually the soul) experiences the physical world through the physical body or through the brain. Deep Sight: Honestly I do not know where you get these conclusions from. Definitely not from my post. Volitions whether good or bad do not arise from the brain. Volitions arise from the spirit. Phantoms whether good or bad only arise from the brain. They are forms of our thoughts. Forms of good volitions are benevolent begins; while forms of bad volitions are what we call demons. Every volition of the spirit, whether good or bad, makes an impression on the animistic and takes on form. The spirit can make use of the principal neutral power in creation while forming a volition. Thus forms of spiritual volitions are very strong, they are animated by an animistic core which is enveloped in an ethreal covering and operate in the ethreal realm. Please read my posts. Deep Sight: Yes. The thought form is only a phantom; it carries not animistic substance as its animating core. It is not as powerful as a volition, and only operates in the planes of fine gross matter. Although it can condescend and affect the physical like I explained above. A volition is strong entity that caries animistic substance as its innermost core. Volitions have forms are formed or made by the Spirit. The spirit owing to its nature can tap into the principal neutral power of God in creation. The brain however cannot tap into this power. Consequently forms(phantoms) arising from thoughts made by the brain are not as strong as forms of spiritual volitions. Deep Sight: Yes. Forms of volitions have material covering and an animistic core and hence are living things. Forms of thoughts are made up of matter all the way to their core and hence are not really living. Deep Sight: Yes thoughts are matter; only fine gross matter, and not physical matter. Thanks and as always, Muchu respect! |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by DeepSight(m): 1:39pm On Aug 06, 2010 |
^^^ I think I understand what you're trying to communicate. Still have some little questions though. Later. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by DeepSight(m): 11:50am On Sep 02, 2010 |
Hello Justcool - I have mulled over the discourse and finally I believe I have that I may have stumbled upon that which may convince you. Thoughts can never be considered to be matter: not even ethereal matter. Knowing as I do that you source your perspectives from the Grail Message, I decided to read again yesterday the Lecture on Thought Forms. It emerges within that lecture that there is a distinction between thoughts and thought-forms. Thought-Forms are what you might describe as being of ethereal matter - NOT THOUGHTS. I believe this is the source of the mis-understanding that you have. For this purpose, I extract from the Lecture on thought forms as follows [Page 270 of the Hard-Back version; Para 5] - "The Living Creative Power which flows through man collects ethereal substance through the volition of a completed thought and moulds it into a form which gives expression to the will of this thought". The foregoing renders it clear that living creative power (which you certainly will not call matter) collects ethereal substance about it through the volition of a completed thought! . It is thus clear that a completed thought (which is not matter) then gathers ethereal substance about it which "moulds it into a form which gives expression to the will of this thought." Thus I say to you that the thought, as i SAID EARLIER - is a living idea. This idea takes on form as an ethereal mould and this is what is called a Thought-Form! So thoughts are not, and could never be ethereal matter. Rather thought-forms, are what are such ethereal matter! Now there is further text that elucidates and proves this point. Quoting again from the message, the next paragraph reads - "Just as a thought when it arises is simultaneously perceived intuitively, with greater or lesser intensity, [u]so its ethereal form will bear an equivalent life." - And this conclusively shows "a thought" to be a different thing from "its ethereal form!" Now finally, on Page 272 [last paragrpah], we read - "Each fundamental type (of thought forms) has its own particular stamp which has been impressed on each thought-form as the foundation of the characteristics embodied in it, no matter what outer shape each form has taken THROUGH THE GENERATING THOUGHT" I think this last quote hammers home the point clearly: "the generating thought" - is different from the "outer shape or form" - - and as such is NOT matter. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by justcool(m): 9:21pm On Sep 02, 2010 |
@ Deepsight Thanks for your last post. I will treat it exhaustively; but before I proceed, I must put some things in perspective. 1) I do not encourage taking paragraphs or sentences from the Grail message; the Grail Message must be read in its entirety. The book is written like a Chinese puzzle; the key to one lecture may lie in another lecture, so you just can read one lecture and base your argument on it. I am only going to give excerpts from the Grail Message to you in this thread, with the hope that it will enduce you to delve deeper into the Grail Message. Carefully read the lectures from where I lift the excerpts that I will give here and dont just consider the excerpts as saparate things, they are part of the whole. 2) The Lectures are arranged in successive order; the knowledge mediated in the lectures builds on what has already been hinted in the previous lecture. So, words are used in different contexts. At the beginning the it calls everything non-physical the beyond; as it proceeds it goes into the details about what the beyond is made of--different species of creation. 3) You cannever grasp the Grail Message with your intelect alone. You must exert your intuition to grasp the message. The message is not written so that you can pick out sentences and try to understand them with you intelect; you will never succeed in this. Each sentence is a part of the whole and it cannever truly be grasped without having read the whole message. It demands that the reader exerts his/her intuition to put the puzzle together so that a living picture might arise. Just like a Chinese puzzle, one piece of the puzzle may give an impression contrary to what the whole picture looks like; you cannever describe or perceive a picture by just considering one piece of the puzzle. Do not hold on to words which are only meant to convey the living knowledge which can only be perceived intuitively. Try to grasp the context in which the word is used. Beyond words, expressions and contexts lies the radiant splendor of the living knowledge mediated in the Grail Message. 4) Also keep in mind that the Grail Message was originally written in German not English. The English transaltion only renders an aproximate meaning of the original German text. However, if the reader reads with an alert intuition, he/she will easily lift the veil of earthly language and behold the radiant and living knowlege. Such an individual will easily percieve the context in which a word is used. He/she will not hold on to the earthly word but rather the meaning which can be pecieved. If you can read German, I will advise your to also read the German edition. Some serious seekers have learnt the German Language just to be able to read the German text of the Grail Message. The translators always put the following note at the each of the English translation: The book In the Light of Truth: The Grail Message is a translation after the original German text, “Im Lichte der Wahrheit – Gralsbotschaft”. In some cases the word-forms of the translation can only render the meaning and contents of the original approximately. Nevertheless, the reader will come to a good understanding of the text, if he strives to absorb its meaning inwardly.http://www.grailmessage.com/lectures/thefirststep.html Now with these four clarifications out of the way; lets deal with the sentences you excerpted from the Grail Message. Deep Sight: What you quoted above contradicts your argument but you don't perceive it due to the fact that you approach the sentence with your intelect alone. The Key word is "Volition" The volition does not come from the brain, it comes from the spirit. The expression "volition of a completed thought" is dealing with the spirit and not the brain. The thought used in this context is that which results from the volition of the spirit and not the activity of the physical brain. I have said many times that the 'thought" we are dealing with in this thread is that which comes from the activity of the physical brain. The thought forms which are dealt with in that lecture you quoted are ethereal forms of spiritual volitions which operate in the ethereal world. The expression "completed thought" refer to the ability of the spirit to produce a completed work or produce a deed in the spiritual; what later manifests in the ethereal and gross material are maifestations of what had alrady become a deed in the spiritual. Once a spirit decides, this decision is a completed thought because it is already a deed in the spiritual; it makes an impression in the animistic. Thus the decision is already completed in the spiritual; it then makes an impression on the animistic before the ethereal form is formed; it is this animistic core of the decision(completed thought) that gathers ethereal substance and creates an ethereal form. The Living power passes through the Spirit; by making decisions, the spirit chanells the Living power into differnt directions; in this chaneling lies the work which is already a completed deed. What manifests later in the ethereal and gross material are only a consequence of the deed that had already been done in the spirit. This is why reponsibilty falls on the spirit and not the animistic, ethereal, and gross material. The aformentined ethereal forms of spiritual volitions are the types of "thought forms" that some people regard to as entities or demons depending on the nature of the volition that gave rise to them; they are very powerful and really living because they bear an animistic mobile core. The "man" referred in the sentence from the Grail Message lecture that you quoted, is the spirit and not the physical body. The Living Creative power or the Principal neutral Power does not flow through the physical body; it flows through the spirit. Only the spirit can tape into this power, and chanell it into different directions while making decisions; the physical can only use a degradation of this power. Even in the first lecture of the message we read: "But the brain stands silent before the incomprehensible power streaming through all that exists, from which it derives its own activity." http://www.grailmessage.com/lectures/silence.html Like I said earlier this incomprehensible power, the Living Creative power or the Principal neutral Power does not flow in its entirety through the physical body or the brain; the brain and the physical body drives their activity from it, a degradation of it. This spiritual power flows in its entirety through the spirit, and it is the spirit that is the real man; so when it is said that this power flows through man, only the spirit is meant and not the physical body, which stands silent before this spiritual power. You can't just pick out lectures or sentences from the Grail Message. You have to digest it in view of the previous prerequisite lectures. The "thought forms" referred to in that lectures are spiritual volitions. The expression thought form is used due to in inadequacy of the language. There is a different from the thought forms arising from spiritual volition and thought forms arising from brain or mental activity. Although they all operate within the laws of creation, they are of different gradations and operate at different planes of creation. The activity of the physical brain cannot create an ethereal form, the difference in species will not allow this. The activity of the physical brain creates a thought form of fine gross matter not ethereal matter. Therefore thought(that which arises from mental activity) is made up of fine gross matter and not ethereal matter. This knowledge is scatted across the chapters of Grail Message; reading one chapter, in isolation of others, is not enough to convey the entire picture. Read these lectures: Awake; Morality; Silence; The First Step; The Human Word; Thought forms; The error about Clairvoyance; In the realms of Demons and Phantoms; Gross matter, Ethereal matter, radiations, space and time; Various aspects of clairvoyance. The above eight chapters will give you a more detailed view on the nature of thoughts. But in order to get fully acquainted of this knowledge, read the whole Message. If you carefully read the wonderful lecture, 'Silence,' you will see that there are two types of thoughts; or better, the word "thought" is can reffer to two different things. Consider this quote from the lecture 'Silence': "I am always speaking here only of real thoughts, which carry within them the vital power of the psychic intuition. Not of the power wasted by the brain-substance entrusted to you as a tool, which forms but fleeting thoughts that only manifest in a wild medley as shadowy phantoms, and fortunately very soon fade away. Such thoughts merely waste your time and energy, and thereby you fritter away a gift entrusted to you." http://www.grailmessage.com/lectures/silence.html What the writter reffers to in the above as 'real thought' are what was dealt with in the lecture, "Thought Forms." In the above post you also see another type of "thought," that which comes from the brain, or which is formed as shadowy phantoms by the brian. This is the "thought" that we are dealing with in this thread. Here we are dealing with what is visualized during meditation or visualization as taught by mystics. The physical brian, or mental activity is needed for such visualization. Another wonderful lecture to carefully read is 'The first step.' Here are a few excerpts from it: "But here they err; for thoughts too belong to the World of Gross Matter,, " " Thoughts, words and the visible deed all belong to the Realm of Gross Matter in this Creation! Thoughts operate in the World of Fine Gross Matter, words in the World of Medium Gross Matter, and visible actions take form in the World of coarsest, that is, densest Gross Matter. These three kinds of your activity are gross material! " http://www.grailmessage.com/lectures/thefirststep.html Deep Sight: First of all, we are not dealing with "a living idea" in this thread, we are dealing with that which is produced during thinking or during mental activity. I keep referring you to why we started this argument in the first place-a guy opened a thread asking if thoughts can become matter in view of visualization. When you practise visualization as taught by mystics, you use your brain to create pictures which you visualize. Thus we are talking about the thoughts that results from brain activity. Why keep deviating from the point? I went further to define what I mean by "thoughts" and under what context I am using the word -- that which arises from the activity of the physical brain. Why do you keep coming up with your "a living idea"? By the definition above and in the context of this thread, Spirits do not produce thoughts, spirits do not think. A physical brain is needed for thoughts; Spirits do not have a physical brain, rather they posses a spiritual organs for forming ideas. The forms of these ideas are what is described in the Lecture "Thought forms." Spirit produces volitions, the brain produces thoughts; these are two different things. But due to the fact that our language is inadequate especially in describing non-physical things, we sometimes refer the spiritual ability to make decisions or the spiritual decisions(volitions) as thoughts. But strictly speaking, spirits do not think; spirits perceive intuitively and posses volitions. Also it is wrong to consider 'thought forms', arrising from the mental activity, as being different from the thought itself. Here I am only speaking of the thoughts that arises from the physical brain's activity. You house has a form; but is that form different from the house? Can you sepereate the form from the house or can you have a house without a form. Another example is: Do you consider vissible physical actions different from the action they express. If you read the lecture, 'The first Step,' carefully you will understand that physical actions are forms too; physical actions are visible active forms in the coarsest World of Matter, just like 'thought forms' are fine-gross material forms in the realm of fine gross matter. Now, is a physical action different from its vissible form? I hope you understand this question becuse I want to you to answer it. The spiritual volition, by making use of the principla neutral power, mould animistic and ethereal substance into forms; the volition actualy remains in the spirit but the form molded from it moves away, although still attached to the spirit, and operates in the ethereal realm. But in the case of the physical brian; the brian, while thinking, mould forms of fine gross matter from fine gross material plane. These forms are inseperable to the thoughts; they are the thoughts. Much like the form of your house is inseperable from your house. However if the promting behind this thinking is from the spirit, then naturally an ethereal form of it already exsist in the ethereal world, and the volition initiating the whole process remains in the spirit like I already pointed out. For the spiritual volition has to make an impression on the animistic which makes an impresion on the ethereal, creating an etheral form; the ethereal then makes and impression on the gross matter. This impression from the soul is picked by the back brain, this is then passed to the frontal brian, which processes them or articulates them as thoughts. Fine material forms arise from this activity of the brian. Deep Sight: I can elaborate on this but I believe that my explanations above already clarified it. Always ask yourself, In what context is the author using the word "thought" in this lecture? Is he talking about that which results from brain activity or is he talking about that which results from spiritual volition? I have already told you earlier in this thread that forms arising from spiritual volitions only have matter as thier covering; thier innermost core or animating core is animistic and not material. But thought forms arissing from the physical brain's activity are made up of matter all the way to thier core. Please read it carefully before replying. I notice from some of your replies that you do not read my post very well before attacking it. Your reply to my post on the thread, "Is the Holy Spirit a sentient Being," showed me that you did not bother reading my posts at all. By the way, how is your book coming along? Have you started writing it? As always, thanks and remain blessed. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by DeepSight(m): 1:27pm On Sep 03, 2010 |
Justcool you might want to consider that it is very easy indeed to presume that persons who have a different view from yours are always - "using their intellect only and not their intuition." This is the dictatorship of a perspective that presumes its own intuition to be the only intuitive perception that could be correct or true. That is no different from the average Christian who considers that any person who has divergent views from him, simply has not been touched by the "Holy Spirit." I will revert later. However it is readily obvious on my first reading that you have absolutely elected to change the words written by the authour. Where he writes "thought" you substitute "spiritual volition." Indeed it is apparent to my mind that there is a distinction between "thoughts" and their ethereal forms. Otherwise the authour would not refer to "the ethereal forms of the generating thought." I will revert appropriately when I have the strength though, as your posts always require a lot of consideration both for length and depth. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by justcool(m): 3:35pm On Sep 03, 2010 |
Deepsight my dear friend and brother, once again thanks for your observations. Deep Sight: Dictatorship? My brother, I am not forcing you to accept my perceptions or views. I am only giving it to you to consider. If you find them wanting, please drop them. You have a right too to express your views or opinions on my perception. When I express that a particular view is intellectual, I don't mean it as an insult. It is only my perception which can be right or wrong. Deep Sight:Please do so; and I apologise before hand, if I have offended you in any way. Please point out where and how I have done so; so that perhaps I would learn from my mistake. Deep Sight: This is another extremely serious accusation. I do not change the authors words. I only offer my perception of the context under which the particular word was used by the author. You can accept my perception or throw it away. In this thread we are dealing with 'thoughts' that come from the physical brain; ie during meditation. We are not dealing with thoughts that arise from the spirit without the participation of the physical brain. We only ascribe the word 'thought' to both processes, which are very different, due to the deficiency of our language. Strictly speaking spirits do not think, as in making mental processes. Rather than mental processes, spirits use thier intuitions to make decisions. I have tried to explain this many times in this thread. Please show me in any of my quotes of the Grail Message where I changed the words. Any reader can easily pick up the Grail Message and crosscheck my quotes. Deep Sight: This is your perception. My perception differs from your here. I will repeat the same question I asked you earlier: Is there a distinction between a house and its form? Referring the the physical form of a generating house(a house in the process of being built) does not make the house different from the form. Once again in this thread we are not dealing with ideas and conceptions, we are dealing with completed thoughts. Once again, thanks and remain blessed. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by justcool(m): 6:17pm On Sep 03, 2010 |
Deepsight To further deal with your last post. Deep Sight: I didnt substitute anything, it is clear that the author was talking about the formation of Ethereal thought forms, in the quotations that you provided; not the formation of fine gross material thought forms or phantoms. Only the ethereal type of thought forms require the involvement of the spiritual intuition. I have explained to you that there are two types of thought forms: (1) Fine gross material thoughts forms, and (2) Ethereal thought forms. The thought forms that arise from the physical brian are the Fine gross material thought forms which is what we are dealing with in this thread. Deep Sight: Also keep in mind, like I keep pointing out in this thread that there are two types of thought-forms. There are ethereal thought forms and fine gross material thought forms. Fine gross material thought forms arises from the activity of the physical brain. And the 'thought' that we are dealing with in this thread is that which arises from the brain. These are fine gross matter all the way to their core. The brain does not have the power to lend thought forms and ethereal covering. Only thoughts or volitions of the spirit can receive an ethereal covering bearing in its core an animating animistic substance. The power to do this flows through the spirit and not the physical body or the brain; this power is the principal neutral power or the Living Creative Power. If a thought that arises from the brain is felt by the spirit as the thought arises, then in addition to this fine gross material thought form that arises from the brain, an ethereal thought form is also created. The ethereal thought form can result because the spirit, or the spiritual intuition, through which the Living Creative Power flows is involved. That lecture you quoted, "Thought Forms" deals primarily with ethereal thought forms, not those that arise only out of brain activity. Such thought forms, fine gross material thought forms have been dealt with in earlier chapters of the Grail Message, ie in Volume one of the message. Now in view of this explanation above reconsider the quote that you pulled from the Grail Message: "Just as a thought when it arises is simultaneously perceived intuitively, with greater or lesser intensity, [u]so its ethereal form will bear an equivalent life." From The lecture "Thought Forms," Volume II of the Grail Message. And this one: "The Living Creative Power which flows through man collects ethereal substance through the volition of a completed thought and moulds it into a form which gives expression to the will of this thought." From The lecture "Thought Forms," Volume II of the Grail Message. As I said earlier, it is my perception that the 'man' mentioned in the above quotation is the spirit and not the physical body. The 'completed thought' is justified because, in the case of a thought coming from the brain, before the ethereal form is created, the fine gross material form has already been completed. If this thought is deeply felt, as it is arsing from the brain, the spirit pecieves it too and consequently and ethereal form of the thought is created. If the thought is coming from the spirit, before the ethereal form is created, the thought had already become a completed deed in the spirit. Either way, the thought is completed before the ethereal form is created. I repeat, that lecture from which you quoted, primarily deals with ethereal thought forms not fine gross matrail thought form. It is expected the you have read the earlier lectures before you read that lecture. I know I keep paraphrasing the same thing that I have been saying; please pardon me. Thanks and remain blessed. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by DeepSight(m): 1:54pm On Nov 27, 2010 |
This is your perception. My perception differs from your here. I will repeat the same question I asked you earlier: Is there a distinction between a house and its form? This is not apt in the least because a house is itself already a physical structure. A thought, on the other hand is not a physical thing: and the very words of the authour of the grail message, to which you ascribe authourity, lend credence to that when it speaks of the "ethereal form of a generating thought" - showing clearly that the ethereal forms are NOT themselves the generating thoughts. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by justcool(m): 6:41pm On Nov 28, 2010 |
Deep Sight: @ Deepsight, I have offered my perception, to the best of my knowledge, as much as I can on this issue. If what you said above makes sense to you then stick to it. I am not here to force my perceptions on people; neither do I claim any authority. I only offer my perceptions for you to consider, accept or reject. My joy lies in offering my perceptions, and not in your acceptance or your rejection of it. I believe that I have treated the issue you raised above; but it seems what I said did not make sense to you. I appreciate your honesty in pointing out what you don't understand; so my dear friend, feel free to discard my perceptions above if your conscience allows you. Always hold fast to what your spirit has perceived to be true, because this is the only thing that can help you advance; not what justcool said. I maintain the Grail Message as the ultimate authority, so if your perception of it differs from mine or if you think that my perception is not consistent with the Grail Message, then hold on to yours. No matter what our perceptions may be (whether right or wrong), as long as it is the best that we can honestly produce at that stage, then that perception is right for us at that stage. Even if a particular perception is wrong, only by living or experiencing it thoroughly would the individual graduate to the realization of the right perception. Thus the most important thing is honesty; only this guaranties that we will arrive at the right perception in the end. You see why it is fruitless to quarrel over religion, faith, spirituality and etc. What is right for one now may not be right for the other at the moment. Therefore, if you honestly believe that your perception is the correct one, or if you have experienced it to be the right one; then hold on to it and disregard mine. Thanks and remain blessed. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by DeepSight(m): 11:37am On Jan 14, 2011 |
I was just reading the Grail Message again yesterday and i went over the Lecture "Gross matter, ethereal matter, radiations, Space & Time." I came across this and I quote - ". . .both ethereal and gross matter represent coverings only, which must be united with animistic substantiality in order to be animated by it."- The Grail message, Hardback 3 - in - 1 volume PAGE 489 For me, this makes it abundantly clear as I have said already that the Grail Message does not teach that thoughts are ethereal matter, for you surely would not say a thought is a "covering" - the authour has made it clear that both gross matter and ethereal matter are coverings only. This, taken together with the other quotes i set out from the Grail Message above certainly rest the issue. For I quoted the message as conveying "the ethereal form of a generating thought" - which makes it clear that the ethereal form is just that - a form - and is not the generating thought itself. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by justcool(m): 4:16pm On Jan 14, 2011 |
Deep Sight: @Deep sight The verse that you quoted does not apply to our discussion on this thread. Gross matter and ethereal matter serve as coverings for creatures, because gross matter and ethereal matter are inherently immobile; all creatures with mobile core must carry either a primordial spiritual, spiritual, or animistic core. Ethereal and gross matter only cover these cores when the creature enters subsequent creation, I believe I have already explained this even in this thread. Thoughts are not creatures with mobile core. And I never said that thoughts are ethereal matter; I have always maintained that thoughts are fine gross matter. I have said this many times in this thread already, yet you keep implying that I said thoughts are ethereal matter. Thoughts are material; they are fine gross matter. Thanks and remain blessed. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by justcool(m): 4:35pm On Jan 14, 2011 |
@Deepsight I have already made familiar to you that you cannot pick out verses from the Grail Message like that. The Grail Message is a whole, its like a jigsaw puzzle, picking out a piece of the puzzle may give an entirely different idea of what the entire picture looks like. I have already explained this to you so there is no need repeating it. But since you are already familiar with the entire message, I will also pick out two verses for you. Read the lecture "At the boundary of Gross Matter." In the volume III of the message. From there I lift this quote: "Your thoughts too, are, only of gross material nature, being products of your brain. They belong to fine gross matter, which consequently also embraces all the thought-forms that can so often be seen by mediums." Abd-ru-shin Latter in the same paragraph we read: "Thoughts as well as thought-forms are still of a gross material nature even though they are part of fine gross matter. They are not ethereal." Abd-ru-shin. Please read the entire lecture. Thanks |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by DeepSight(m): 4:37pm On Jan 14, 2011 |
justcool: I am surprised that you do not see that the cited extract still applies, whether you state thoughts to be fine gross matter or ethereal matter - becuase the extract states that both gross and ethereal matter are coverings only. Is a thought a covering? A covering of what? It is quite obvious to me what the message says regarding this. And it is similarly obvious that your view is not in consonance with what the message says. It is actually worse that you claim thoughts to be fine gross matter: because in that event Abd Ru Shin's words when he refers to "the ethereal form of a generating thought" would then become absurd - because would we say that something gross material has a covering which is lighter and higher than it? That cannot wash because you are aware that coverings are always coarser than cores. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by DeepSight(m): 4:40pm On Jan 14, 2011 |
Again, remember that in creation, it is the inner element of a thing that generates an outward form and not vice versa. The outward form does not generate the inner element. How then is it possible for something material to generate something ethereal. It should be the other way round. So then the phrase "the ethereal form of a generating thought. . .? |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by DeepSight(m): 4:54pm On Jan 14, 2011 |
justcool: Thanks for providing these extracts. I must say I had not averted my mind to them. What is thereby made obvious is that there exists a contradictory flow of thought development within the Grail Message regarding this matter. If the authour believes thoughts to be matter, I must say i quietly and humbly do not share his view on that. And as I have shown, there is much that he himself wrote that gives a lie to such a perspective. It only shows that the message is not a perfect work, and that it contains some gaps and inconsistencies. I say this particularly in light of my concerns in the two posts preceding this namely - 1. He writes that all matter, gross or ethereal, are coverings only. What is a thought a covering of, if it is matter? Is it possible for a covering to be lighter and less coarse than its core? No it is not, just as the spirit cannot be more coarse than physical matter. Accordingly it is impossible for him to speak of " the ethereal form of a generating thought" if indeed thoughts are matter The only way he can speak of such is if the generating thought is actually something lighter than the ethereal form. 2. In creation it is not possible for matter to be the quickening element in anything. It is rather quickened by something else. Thus again it would be impossible to conceive of matter generating ethereal forms, for that would mean that matter itself is alive in and of itself and proceeds to generate forms that are higher than itself. This simply does not add up. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by justcool(m): 5:08pm On Jan 14, 2011 |
Deep Sight: Both gross matter and ethereal matter are only coverings in regards to mobile creatures. The outermost bodies of the creatures in subsequent creation are made of up either gross or ethereal matter depending on which plane of subsequent creation the creature is. This does not mean that all ethereal and gross material substances are coverings. Trees are coarsest gross matter all the way to their core, just like thought, they do not have mobile cores. Mountains and etc all belong to the same category. Deep Sight: Well, this is your perception. Deep Sight: I have already clarified this. That lecture “Thought forms” is dealing with the forms. Spiritual volitions have ethereal covering, they have forms too. Both unlike thought forms, spiritual volitions have a mobile core made of animistic substance. Both forms, (ethereal forms of spiritual volitions and fine gross material forms of thoughts) operate within the same laws of creation, in that their forms are always in accord with their nature, either ugly or beautiful. Thought forms operate in the plane of fine gross matter, while spiritual volitions wearing ethereal forms operate in the ethereal planes. That lecture “thought forms” is dealing with the forms, their formations, mode of operation and etc. Deep Sight: Both the brain and the thoughts are still gross matter. Fine gross matter is still gross matter. And the brain does not create anything, it only forms; neither does it generate anything ethereal. While you are thinking, the brain gathers find gross material substances and forms them accordingly. Just as when the muscle is working, it gathers blood that passes through it. When you are thinking, the brain gathers lose fine gross matter that floats in the fine gross material realm and molds it into forms. This is a very broad picture, because the elementals also play a part in the molding and maintenance of forms. Both the thought and its forms are material. Although the author never actually wrote "ethereal forms of a generating thought", I sense what verse you are trying to quote and I will offer my perception. "ethereal form of a generating thought" means the ethereal form of a thought in the process of formation. It does not mean that the thought generate ethereal forms. The thought (fine gross matter) and the ethereal form(spiritual volition) are two different things; the ethereal form is formed as a result of the spiritual volition, while the thought is formed from the thinking in the brian. For a volition that arises in the spirit, usually the ethereal form of this volition is already completed, or the volition has already taken on the ethereal realm, while the thought(fine gross matter) is being fashioned or generated as the brian thinks. It is not the thought generated or formed by the brain that wears an ethereal form; rather it is the forms of spiritual volition that wears an ethereal form having animistic substance as its animating core. Thanks |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by justcool(m): 7:16pm On Jan 14, 2011 |
Deep Sight: I have not seen any inconsistencies in the Grail Message; the Grail Message contains no gaps, not even a gap as minute as a hair’s breadth. But the writer does not encourage laziness or spiritual lukwarmness. He doesn’t give the knowledge in a platter of gold. The knowledge is arranged like a jigsaw puzzle; the reader must work hard and put it all together. This way He forces the reader towards spiritual movement. To him who tries to approach it with the intellect, it remains the book sealed with seven seals, exactly as the revelation of John said. Like all that comes from above, it is wrapped. One who wants to make use of it must patiently unwrap it. Just like a fruit, let’s say an orange, comes with a warp which you must carefully peel. If you swallow the fruit without first working on it, rather than nourishing you it may even kill you. This is an automatic working that lies in all that God gives, one must first prove himself worthy to receive the gift, by working tirelessly on it. And please do not take this personally; I don’t mean that you are a lazy. I’m only trying to show you that the author purposely wrote it that way, everybody must struggle with it. Even I myself had to struggle; but in this struggle you will find strength and mobility. This struggle awakens your intuition. So you have done nothing wrong. The fact that you put everything to scrutiny already shows that your spirit is not dead. The fact that the Grail message leaves you no peace is actually commendable, it shows that you are not indifferent to it; for only one who is dead spiritually will be indifferent to the Grail Message. But you, my friend, are definitely not indifferent or uncaring to spiritual matters; and that is commendable. Deep Sight: I have already dealt with the issue of “the ethereal form of a generating thought.” Thoughts have fine gross material forms. At the beginning of the message everything non-physical is grouped as beyond, or ethereal. Only in later lectures was the beyond clarified to be made up of different species. The message is written in the form of a flight of stairs, one thing leads to another. Even without the above in mind, there is no contradiction in the expression “the ethereal form of a generating thought,” if you look at it this way: The thought being generated by the brain is fine gross matter, the ethereal form of it is the volition of the spirit. If a thought is so strong that it is perceived by the spirit, then while the thought(fine gross matter) is being generated by the brain, the spiritual volition, corresponding to the thought and has an ethereal covering or form will also be generated in the ethereal realm. This ethereal form of the thought is a counterpart or an ethereal replica of the gross material thought for. They are two different things. It is the volition that has an ethereal form; the forms covering the animistic core of the form. Hence the form (coarser substance) is covering the animistic core(finer substance). As a volition rises in the spirit, it forces thoughts to arise in the brain too. These thoughts are fine gross matter. Sometimes due to indolence of the spirit, the forms or thoughts arising from the brain is not in accord with the volition; and sometimes volitions, thoughts, words and actions are not in accord. Each takes on forms and operates in a different plane of creation. But the spiritual volition carries the most weight. Now coming to “all matter, gross matter, ethereal, are coverings only”; I have already explained to you that this is in regard to creatures with mobile cores i.e. mobile creatures like man and animals. In regard to these creatures, the gross material and ethereal bodies are only coverings or cloaks, and not the creature itself. This does not mean that all gross matter and ethereal matter in subsequent creation is covering a mobile core. Plants for example, are living things that do not have mobile cores. The physical plant is coarsest gross matter all the way to its core. But this is only scratching the surface; for that statement “all matter, gross matter, ethereal, are coverings only” is very deep. Keep in mind that in the heart of every atom resides spiritual particle or dust. This will take us far away from the theme of this thread but I will just briefly mention that; The radiation of the Primordial beings causes very weak loose spiritual particles to fly off into the animistic realm. Based on the law that all that is spiritual is magnetic, once these particles enter the animistic realm, they attract loss animistic substances as their coverings. Consequently they become heavy and fall deeper and deeper until they enter the realms of ethereal and gross matter. On entering the gross material planes, they receive coverings from lose gross material substances and becomes the most basic substances that make up parts of the atom. This is why I said that energy and matter or mass cannot be separated. Pure energy is actually the spiritual dust particles which in the physical realm already wear so many cloaks. So when I say physical energy; it is the energy that results from the spirit dusts after it was put on a physical covering. Ethereal energy is the energy that results from the same spiritual dusts when it is wearing ethereal substance as its outmost covering. Actually pure energy is spiritual. Since the components of atoms are made up of these cloaked spiritual dusts, and atoms make up matter, one can say that matter is made up of energy. Considering this process, then the statement that “all matter, gross matter, ethereal, are coverings only” is very valid. The spiritual dusts that I mean here are not spirit germs; spiritual dusts or particles are lower degradation of the spiritual, they can be likened to dusts and not spiritual creatures or spirit germs. Deep Sight: I already explained to you that it is not the matter that generates the ethereal form. While the fine gross material form of the thought is being generated, the ethereal form corresponding is also being generated according to the volition of the spirit. The ethereal forms is animated or to use your expression quickened by an animistic substance. The volition wearing an ethereal covering could be regarded as the ethereal form of the thought. The thought itself is fine gross matter all the way to its core and remains in the realm of fine gross matter. I hope this helps; it is my perception, and you can always disregard it if it doesn’t make sense to you. Thanks |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by justcool(m): 8:15am On Jan 15, 2011 |
@Deepsight Like I said earlier, the author never used the expression “ethereal form of a generating thought.” But I sense what you are trying to quote, and since this is your major bone of contention, I will deal exclusively with it on this post. Here is exactly what the author wrote: “Just a thought when it arises is simultaneously perceived intuitively, with a greater or lesser intensity, so its ethereal form will bear an equivalent life.” The Grail Message volume II. From the lecture: “Thought-Forms.” I believe this is the quote you are summarizing by “ethereal form of a generating thought” If I'm wrong please correct me. Now in the quote above, you can decipher that the author is talking about two different things, namely (1) “Just as a thought arises….” This part is dealing with the thoughts that arise from the brain, i.e., the gross material thoughts. As it arises from the brain or as it is being generated or as the brain forms it, then something else happens, (2) it is simultaneously perceived intuitively. This is where the spirit comes in. It is this intuitive perceiving that is a volition of the spirit. And this volition takes on form in the ethereal realm. Hence “the ethereal form will bear equivalent life” i.e. the life or strength of the ethereal form depends on how much the intuition or the volition of the spirit was involved. So as the a thought arises in the brain in the planes of fine gross matter it takes on form which is fine gross matter all through to its core. As the thought arises or as the brain thinks, if this thinking is felt by the spirit as well, a volition takes on form in the ethereal realm. So in fine gross matter we have thought-forms, and in the ethereal realm we have ethereal form. The thought-forms are forms of the thinking that arises in the brain; while the ethereal forms are forms of volitions that arises from the intuitive perception of the spirit. Here the process is described as coming from outside, i.e. a thought arising in the brain is felt by the spirit which then forms a volition. It can also happen the other way round, i.e. a volition arising from the spirit induces the brain to think or produce thought forms. Thus the ethereal form and the thought form are two different things; two different species in different planes of creation. One is ethereal, alive, and has an animating core; while the other is fine gross material and doesn't have a mobile core. This is absolutely not a contradiction. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by DeepSight(m): 7:37pm On Oct 06, 2011 |
Unfinished business here too. . . brb |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by justcool(m): 9:28pm On Oct 07, 2011 |
Deep Sight: Ha! Okay my brother, lets finish the business. |
| Re: Thoughts, Gross Matter, Ethereal Matter, And Etc. For Deepsight And Etc by justcool(m): 2:09am On Oct 08, 2011 |
Deep Sight while you are at it please carefully watch and listen to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51VOHrxtlT0&feature=related Interesting!! Isn't it? I believe I was deliberately and purposely led to that video. Please watch and tell me what you think. Thanks |
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