Just want to confirm if the word of faith movement is entirely distinct from Pentecostalism or just a subset of it.

They re both a movement of rascality,,,word of faith means fraudulent brainwashing,,,Wished Jesus would just come now sweep all these criminals profitting from HIS name and good works,,,,

chukwudi44:

Just want to confirm if the word of faith movement is entirely distinct from Pentecostalism or just a subset of it.

Firstly there is nothing pentecostal about christianity. It was a jewish festival. It was mere coincidence the holyspirit came during pentecost.

Concerning Word Of Faith Movement, I will like to have your definition of what you mean by that.

Word of faith carries the pentecostal mis-conceptions to the extreme with the solo aim of dominating the lives of their members, whilst fleecing them and getting rich in the process throught the greedy and self serving manipulation of the word of God.

Firstly there is nothing pentecostal about Christianity. It  was  a jewish festival. It was mere coincidence the holy spirit came during Pentecost.

Ar you trying to feign ignorance of the pentecostal sect within Christendom

If there is anything about Word Of Faith Movement, It is simply based on the understanding of the power of the spoken word. Word of faith simply means, Words, declared by faith, and cause things to happen. It is based on the realisation of hidden biblical principles that many neglected. The word of God is the Word Of Faith. Such "movement" was a reasult of the cosciousness God has brought back to the Church . The fact that we can navigate our way in life by what we say, We can have what we say.

Romans 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

But mockers of this great truth, started by tagging it , "name it claim it" But on nairaland. any thing that does not agree with the myopic thinking of some posters is Word of Faith. " we are justified" its wof doctrine! "We are divine" its wofff doctrine! "we are new creation" its woffffffffffff doctrine. "Giving in Gods house" Aaah! wofffffffffff doctrines!.

Joagbaje:

"We are divine" its wofff doctrine!

Yes, that is quite the quintessential WOF doctrine. . . and we've discussed this in other threads.

chukwudi44:

Just want to confirm if the word of faith movement is entirely distinct from Pentecostalism or just a subset of it.

I would say that WOF (Word of Faith) movement could be a subset of Pentecostalism. The latter term (pentecostlism) is very broad and is an unbrella word for many different groups across the major branches of Christendom. For example, while it's hard to come by any Catholic group self-identified as 'WoF', there are a few expressions of "Catholic Pentecostal[ism]" (basically, these Catholic Pentecostals are not generally seen as adhering faithfully to the historic Catholic faith - an article here that exemplifies this).

viaro:

Yes, that is quite the quintessential WOF doctrine. . . and we've discussed this in other threads.

What has divinity got to do with. Speaking faith! see what i'm saying.

Joagbaje:

What has divinity got to do with. Speaking faith! see what i'm saying.

That there is really funny! If divinity has got nothing to do with speaking faith, I wonder why Wof (or 'Wofers') have been making the connection furtively!

Question: "Is the Word of Faith movement Biblical?"

Answer: Word of Faith teaching is decidedly unbiblical. It is not a denomination and does not have a formal organization or hierarchy. Instead, it is a movement that is heavily influenced by a number of high-profile pastors and teachers such as Kenneth Hagin, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Paul and Jan Crouch, and Fred Price.

The Word of Faith movement grew out of the Pentecostal movement in the latter 20th century. Its founder was E. W. Kenyon, who studied the metaphysical New Thought teachings of Phineas Quimby. Mind science (where "name it and claim it" originated) was combined with Pentecostalism, resulting in a peculiar mix of orthodox Christianity and mysticism. Kenneth Hagin in turn studied under E. W. Kenyon and made the Word of Faith movement what it is today. Although individual teachings range from completely heretical to completely ridiculous, what follows is the basic theology most Word of Faith teachers align themselves with.

At the heart of the Word of Faith movement is the belief in the "force of faith." It is believed words can be used to manipulate the faith-force, and thus actually create what they believe Scripture promises (health and wealth). Laws supposedly governing the faith-force are said to operate independently of God's sovereign will and that God Himself is subject to these laws. This is nothing short of idolatry, turning our faith—and by extension ourselves—into god.

From here, its theology just strays further and further from Scripture: It claims that God created human beings in His literal, physical image as little gods. Before the fall, humans had the potential to call things into existence by using the faith-force. After the fall humans took on Satan's nature and lost the ability to call things into existence. In order to correct this situation, Jesus Christ gave up His divinity and became a man, died spiritually, took Satan's nature upon Himself, went to hell, was born-again, and rose from the dead with God's nature. After this, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to replicate the Incarnation in believers so they could become little gods as God had originally intended.

Following the natural progression of these teachings, as little gods we again have the ability to manipulate the faith-force and become prosperous in all areas of life. Illness, sin, and failure are the result of a lack of faith, and are remedied by confession—claiming God's promises for oneself into existence. Simply put, the Word of Faith movement exalts man to god-status and reduces God to man-status. Needless to say, this is a false representation of what Christianity is all about. Obviously, Word of Faith teaching does not take into account what is found in Scripture. Personal revelation, not Scripture, is highly relied upon in order to come up with such absurd beliefs, which is just one more proof of its heretical nature.

Countering Word of Faith teaching is a simple matter of reading the Bible. God alone is the Sovereign Creator of the Universe (Genesis 1:3; 1 Timothy 6:15), and does not need faith—He is the object of faith (Mark 11:22; Hebrews 11:3). God is spirit, and does not have a physical body (John 4:24). Man was created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26, 27; 9:6), but this does not make him a little god or divine. Only God has a divine nature (Galatians 4:8; Isaiah 1:6-11, 43:10, 44:6; Ezekiel 28:2; Psalms 8:6-. Christ is Eternal, the Only Begotten Son, and the only incarnation of God (John 1:1, 2, 15; 1:14, 18; 3:16; 1 John 4:1). In Him dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9). By becoming a man Jesus gave up the glory of heaven but not His divinity (Philippians 2:6-7), though He did choose to withhold His power while walking the earth as man.

The Word of Faith movement is deceiving countless people, causing them to grasp after a way of life and faith that is not biblical. At its core is the same lie Satan has been telling since the Garden: “you shall be as God” (Genesis 3:5). Sadly, those who buy into the Word of Faith movement are still listening to him. Our hope is in the Lord, not in our own words, not even in our own faith (Psalm 33:20-22). Our faith comes from God in the first place (Ephesians 2:8; Hebrews 12:2) and is not something we create for ourselves. So, be wary of the Word of Faith movement and any church that aligns itself with Word of Faith teachings.

Source: http://www.gotquestions.org/Word-Faith.html

Yep, the Word of Faith movement is a subset of Pentecostalism/Charismatism - a particularly heretical subset. In turn the prosperity "gospel" is an offshoot of the Word of Faith movement. The article pasted above by Mudley313 (which I have often linked to myself) is a reasonably good summary of the Word of Faith movement and some of its doctrines. Unfortunately, as many of the doctrines of the WoF movement are very attractive to the fleshly minded and materialistic, heretical WoF doctrine are seeping into mainstream Christianity --- particularly elements of the prosperity "gospel".

Beyond the prosperity "gospel", some WoF doctrines are basically satanic as even the article above points out. They downgrade Christ while at the same time elevating themselves to god definitely, perhaps God or at least "divine" status in self-delusion. The most ignorant/deluded (or possibly even corrupt) defender of the WoF movement here on nairaland is my own old mucker Pasiiitor Joagbaje. In turn the biggest WoF propagating "church" in Nigeria is the so-called "Christ Embassy" which makes Oyakhilome the leading individual WoF propagator in Nigeria and thus makes him befitting of the title of Nigeria's heretic-in-chief.

Some of Oyakhilome's blindest followers/admirers have often claimed here that he is a great "bible" teacher with "special revelation"; the mumus do not realise that Oyaks is simply repeating and parotting old WoF heresies from well known WoF preachers. I still plan to specifically investigate his books for plagiarism and I'm sure I will do it later this year. In the meantime, below is a post from a poster who has unwittingly helped me with background preparation.

SistaSista:

Still, I'm not asserting that Mr Chris Oyakhilome is a fake but some of the things I have found make it hard for me to turn a blind eye, for instance,

I find it interesting that 5 of his publications have the same titles as publications by other authors in the 40's, 70's and 80's!

eg.
1. Join This Chariot  by T.L. Osborn Paperback Book 1974

2. None of These Diseases (Paperback)
                by S. I. McMillen (Author), David E., M.D. Stern (Editor)
                Publisher: Fleming H Revell Co (June 1984)

3. E. W Kenyon- ( deceased in 1948)
a.           New Creation Realities
b.           The wonderful name of Jesus
c.           Two kinds of knowledge

but  judge for yourself,

Joagbaje:

Firstly there is nothing pentecostal about christianity. It was a jewish festival. [size=16pt]It was mere coincidence the holyspirit came during pentecost.[/size]

Concerning Word Of Faith Movement, I will like to have your definition of what you mean by that.

"Mere coincidence?" Pastor Joagbaje, you need to choose your words more carefully or did you actually mean what you posted above?

Pentecost

The word derives from the Greek for "the 50th day." It was the Jewish Feast of Weeks (Exod 34:22; Deut 16:9-11),

Exodus 34:22:
And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

Deut 16:9-11:
Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn. (10) And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the LORD thy God, according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: (11) And thou shalt rejoice before the LORD thy God, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are among you, in the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to place his name there.

variously called the Feast of Harvest (Exod 23:16) or the Day of Firstfruits (Num 28:26), which fell on the 50th day after the Feast of the Passover.
Leviticus 23 describes the sacred nature of the holiday and lists the appropriate sacrifices. The events of Acts 2 transformed the Jewish festival into a Christian one.
A study of the old testament feasts ordained by God will show you that they foreshadowed the Messiah.

"Mere coincidence?" Not at all.

The Word of faith movement has very suspect and incorrect theology. It features pseudo christian values and concepts and is composed of a lethal mix of erroneous teachings and misplaced enthusiasm.

aletheia:

"Mere coincidence?" Pastor Joagbaje, you need to choose your words more carefully or did you actually mean what you posted above?

Pentecost

The word derives from the Greek for "the 50th day." It was the Jewish Feast of Weeks (Exod 34:22; Deut 16:9-11),  variously called the Feast of Harvest (Exod 23:16) or the Day of Firstfruits (Num 28:26), which fell on the 50th day after the Feast of the Passover.
Leviticus 23 describes the sacred nature of the holiday and lists the appropriate sacrifices. The events of Acts 2 transformed the Jewish festival into a Christian one.
A study of the old testament feasts ordained by God will show you that they foreshadowed the Messiah.

"Mere coincidence?" Not at all.

I agee with the emboldened part above ^^^

To add to the above, methinks God picked that day deliberately as folks from all over the place were going to be there, hear about the Gospel & take it back with them. 

Acts 2 -

5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven,

6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

7 And they were amazed and wondered, saying, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans?

8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?

9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,

10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretans and Arabians, we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God."

samorijack:

The Word of faith movement has very suspect and incorrect theology. It features pseudo christian values and concepts and is composed of a lethal mix of erroneous teachings and misplaced enthusiasm.

So on point!

Joagbaje:

Firstly there is nothing pentecostal about christianity. It was a jewish festival. It was mere coincidence the holyspirit came during pentecost.

Haba Joagbaje!!!!   I am shocked beyond belief that a Christian, a pastor at that, will make this claim above.  You have been well answered as shown below:

aletheia:

"Mere coincidence?" Pastor Joagbaje, you need to choose your words more carefully or did you actually mean what you posted above?

Pentecost

The word derives from the Greek for "the 50th day." It was the Jewish Feast of Weeks (Exod 34:22; Deut 16:9-11), variously called the Feast of Harvest (Exod 23:16) or the Day of Firstfruits (Num 28:26), which fell on the 50th day after the Feast of the Passover.
Leviticus 23 describes the sacred nature of the holiday and lists the appropriate sacrifices. The events of Acts 2 transformed the Jewish festival into a Christian one.
A study of the old testament feasts ordained by God will show you that they foreshadowed the Messiah.

"Mere coincidence?" Not at all.

petres_007:

I agee with the emboldened part above ^^^

To add to the above, methinks God picked that day deliberately as folks from all over the place were going to be there, hear about the Gospel & take it back with them. 

. . .

[/i]

Let me throw in a bit of illumination in addition.

The OT foreshadows the NT and so, the events, precepts, laws, feasts etc of the OT definitely find fulfilment in the NT, and some are still to happen at a future date (i.e. not yet fulfilled).

A careful study of the feasts of the OT by a bible student will reveal the parallels in the way the feasts of the OT find their fulfilment in the NT.  To say the coming of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost is merely conicident shows a lack of understanding.  This is equivalent to saying Our Lord Jesus' death on the day of the Feast of Passover is merely a coincidence!

God, the Great Designer has already designed the time-table of events in history and none is coincident.  By the enactment of the covenant with the people of Israel (the OT church), He was revealing the type/shadow, to be fulfilled in the actual/real (the church/ Ecclessia).

There is a lot to be said here, but for brevity let me highlight some of the feasts of the OT that finds fulfilment in the NT, at the exact time and date it was celebrated in the OT (reference Leveticus 23 vs 1-44):

1. The Feast of Passover where a lamb is sacrificed on the 14th day of the Hebrew month of Nissan to remember when the passover lamb was sacrificed on the eve of the deliverance from Egypt- found fulfilment in the sacrifice of Jesus as the Lamb of God, at the exact date and time on 14 Nissan 33 AD

2. The Feast of Unleavened Bread celebrated on the day after Passover is a solemn assembly eaten in a hurry - found fulfilment in the burial of Jesus as he remained in the grave on the 15th day of Nisaan 33 AD

3. The feast of firstfruits is celebrated on the 17th day of Nissan signifying the firstfruits of harvest of the people of Israel- found fulfilment in the Ressurection of Christ and His showing Himself to the disiciples at Galilee a day after he arose from the grave on 17th day of Nissan 33 AD as the firstfruit from the dead!

4. The feast of Weeks also called the Pentecost is celebrated on the 50th day after Passover.  It is the day after 7 weeks from the feast of passover.  It is the day the Law of Moses written on the tablets of stone was delivered to the Israelites from Mount Sinai, signifying the birth of a nation, among other things, and the covenant of God to His people.

You will remember that after the resurrection, Jesus told all His disciples to remain in Jerusalem until they receive power from above to make them witnesses unto Him.  It was on the same 50th day after His death that this found fulfilment.  Acts 2 records this.

The Lord chose this day of Pentecost for that fulfilment by the coming of the Holy Spirit, signifying the birth of the New Nation- the Church, and the giving of the new Law of the Spirit, written not in tablets of stone, but in the tables of the hearts of men, as New Testament/Covenant people of God.  This is the seal on our salvation.

Just as everybody was supposed to be gathered at the Feast of Pentecost before the Lord in the OT, every single one of the believers (about 120) was present on this very day in the NT when the Holy Spirit came from above and in cloven tongues of fire and the  people from every nation gathered heard them speaking in tongues in their languages.

Mere coincidence?  Not at all.  It's part of the grand and divine time-table of God.

I will continue shortly about the remianing 3 feasts in the Jewish calender. . .

---

On a 2nd thought, permit me to stop this here so as not to divert the topic. However the remaining 3 feasts in the OT are that of Feats of Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles and all are shadows of the NT.

I don't know why you guys are suprised at Joagbaje's statement - remember he is a pre-programmed human and there's a remote control somewhere. Chris (who holds the remote) says he is not a Pentecostal and that Pentecostals basically are people who follow what is generally accepted unlike himself who follows the truth. In his words QUOTE "they have not done enough study"UNQUOTE. Since he's not involved with pentecost, why would you expect him to know anything about it.

This is just a "superiority complex" thing (I know more than them and have thought clearer about the matter ). Unfortunately, the myopic bent of this reasoning neglects to see God's grand design - would the Holy Spirit have been better served coming in the wilderness in the middle of the night, for example? Thats why they miss the significance of the timing and so, you cannot too much blame them.

Better just to leave them to their imagined "superiorities"

Firstly there is nothing pentecostal about christianity. It was a jewish festival.

Mr hypocrite what about tithe, is it a christian practice?

aletheia:

"Mere coincidence?" Pastor Joagbaje, you need to choose your words more carefully or did you actually mean what you posted above?

Pentecost

The word derives from the Greek for "the 50th day." It was the Jewish Feast of Weeks (Exod 34:22; Deut 16:9-11), variously called the Feast of Harvest (Exod 23:16) or the Day of Firstfruits (Num 28:26), which fell on the 50th day after the Feast of the Passover.
Leviticus 23 describes the sacred nature of the holiday and lists the appropriate sacrifices. The events of Acts 2 transformed the Jewish festival into a Christian one.
A study of the old testament feasts ordained by God will show you that they foreshadowed the Messiah.

"Mere coincidence?" Not at all.

Maybe my choice of the word "coincidence" was not appropriate. My point is that the feast has nothing to do with Christianity as regards us being called by it "Pentecostal" we are not. Mind you I don't deny the types and shadow the OT rituals , and festivals portrays. The holyghost coming on that day does not make us Pentecostal. Christianity is Christianity. If he had come on Passover day. What shall we be called now? PASSOVERAS?

nuclearboy:

I don't know why you guys are suprised at Joagbaje's statement - remember he is a pre-programmed human and there's a remote control somewhere. Chris (who holds the remote) says he is not a Pentecostal and that Pentecostals basically are people who follow what is generally accepted unlike himself who follows the truth. In his words QUOTE "they have not done enough study"UNQUOTE. Since he's not involved with pentecost, why would you expect him to know anything about it.

God forgive you. Why don't you do a re study yourself . I know you are only walking in what your fathers handed over to you without finding for yourself. There's nothing Pentecostal about Christianity or the holyspirit. The church were in the upstair room away from the Jewish Pentecostal who were celebrating downstairs.

Analytical:

Haba Joagbaje!!!!   I am shocked beyond belief that a Christian, a pastor at that, will make this claim above.  You have been well answered as shown below:

Let me throw in a bit of illumination in addition.

The OT foreshadows the NT and so, the events, precepts, laws, feasts etc of the OT definitely find fulfilment in the NT, and some are still to happen at a future date (i.e. not yet fulfilled).

A careful study of the feasts of the OT by a bible student will reveal the parallels in the way the feasts of the OT find their fulfilment in the NT.  To say the coming of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost is merely conicident shows a lack of understanding.  This is equivalent to saying Our Lord Jesus' death on the day of the Feast of Passover is merely a coincidence!

God, the Great Designer has already designed the time-table of events in history and none is coincident.  By the enactment of the covenant with the people of Israel (the OT church), He was revealing the type/shadow, to be fulfilled in the actual/real (the church/ Ecclessia).

There is a lot to be said here, but for brevity let me highlight some of the feasts of the OT that finds fulfilment in the NT, at the exact time and date it was celebrated in the OT (reference Leveticus 23 vs 1-44):

1. The Feast of Passover where a lamb is sacrificed on the 14th day of the Hebrew month of Nissan to remember when the passover lamb was sacrificed on the eve of the deliverance from Egypt- found fulfilment in the sacrifice of Jesus as the Lamb of God, at the exact date and time on 14 Nissan 33 AD

2. The Feast of Unleavened Bread celebrated on the day after Passover is a solemn assembly eaten in a hurry - found fulfilment in the burial of Jesus as he remained in the grave on the 15th day of Nisaan 33 AD

3. The feast of firstfruits is celebrated on the 17th day of Nissan signifying the firstfruits of harvest of the people of Israel- found fulfilment in the Ressurection of Christ and His showing Himself to the disiciples at Galilee a day after he arose from the grave on 17th day of Nissan 33 AD as the firstfruit from the dead!

4. The feast of Weeks also called the Pentecost is celebrated on the 50th day after Passover.  It is the day after 7 weeks from the feast of passover.  It is the day the Law of Moses written on the tablets of stone was delivered to the Israelites from Mount Sinai, signifying the birth of a nation, among other things, and the covenant of God to His people.

You will remember that after the resurrection, Jesus told all His disciples to remain in Jerusalem until they receive power from above to make them witnesses unto Him.  It was on the same 50th day after His death that this found fulfilment.  Acts 2 records this.

The Lord chose this day of Pentecost for that fulfilment by the coming of the Holy Spirit, signifying the birth of the New Nation- the Church, and the giving of the new Law of the Spirit, written not in tablets of stone, but in the tables of the hearts of men, as New Testament/Covenant people of God.  This is the seal on our salvation.

Just as everybody was supposed to be gathered at the Feast of Pentecost before the Lord in the OT, every single one of the believers (about 120) was present on this very day in the NT when the Holy Spirit came from above and in cloven tongues of fire and the  people from every nation gathered heard them speaking in tongues in their languages.

Mere coincidence?  Not at all.  It's part of the grand and divine time-table of God.

I will continue shortly about the remianing 3 feasts in the Jewish calender. . .
On a 2nd thought, permit me to stop this here so as not to divert the topic. However the remaining 3 feasts in the OT are that of Feats of Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles and all are shadows of the NT.

thanks for the enlightenment. I did some studies on this too. But one fact remains,:There is nothing Pentecostal about the holyghost nor the church. It is time we re examin some of the handovers of the days of ignorance.

Joagbaje:

Thanks for the prayer. God will forgive me, a simple sinner. It is you that are a god and perfect. But I'll tell you this - Pride, arrogance, and a superiority complex is what makes you feel yourself in a position no one else is in. It is sad considering what you claim to be and a pointer to the falseness of that assertion.

There is no Christian (whether milk, leather or iron teeth, as you like to say) who cannot separate between pentecost's proper practitioners and the Christians who received the Holy Spirit during that celebration. Chukwudi44 asked a simple question directed to sincere readers, about the relationship between the Christian movement that started out on the day the HS descended DURING THE FESTIVAL of Pentecost and you "god-men" claimers (as Aletheia would put it - name and claim 101ers). But no, you had to show the "shallowness" of your shallowness by changing it to "pentecost is paganism" and "I don't know what WOF is". "Analytical" most kindly went further to help pull you back gracefully but like the tortoise who refuses to return home till disgraced, you continued on your path of self mockery stating you've studied all he said (master know-all).

Your last post discusses the "days of ignorance". ol'boy, you are permanently lost in those days and are not likely ever to find your way out if you don't know Apostolic Christianity as it obtains today started during Pentecost when the HS came upon christians and they spoke in tongues. That simply, guy, is why its called pentecostalism - symbolic and fitting since thats when speaking in tongues started as a manifestation of believership. But then, why would you understand seeing as your control software doesn't allow reasoning?

Joagbaje:

God forgive you. Why don't you do a re study yourself . I know you are only walking in what your fathers handed over to you without finding for yourself. There's nothing Pentecostal about Christianity or the holyspirit. The church were in the upstair room away from the Jewish Pentecostal who were celebrating downstairs.

Joagbaje:

thanks for the enlightenment. I did some studies on this too. But one fact remains,:There is nothing Pentecostal about the holyghost nor the church. It is time we re examin some of the handovers of the days of ignorance.

Joagbaje, obviously you have refused to see the link between the type and the real thing!  In as much as I don't subscribe to calling ourselves Pentecostals ( or whatever nomenclature), since a Christain should simply be a Christian, waiving away the significance of the event at Pentecost is denying the fulness of the message we carry. 

So significant was it that Christ told them to WAIT for the enduement before they could be witnesses unto Him.  And we all know what happened when the power came, thousands were saved that very day!  The christian church was born and empowered on the day of Pentecost.  How could anyone say there is nothing pentecostal about the church?

Pentecost took a new meaning, a christian meaning, when the Holy Spirit came.  Did I sense a contempt and lack or reverence for the Holy Spirit in your posts?  Repeatedly, your posts demean His Holiness!

Would you be more christian than Paul and the early church?  There are references that indicate that at least the early church understood the importance of Pentecost (the real pentecost and not the Jewish feast) long after 33 AD. 

Acts 20 vs 16:

For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he was hurrying to be in Jerusalem, if possible, on the day of Pentecost.;

And this is Paul writing to a christian church:

1 Corinthians 16 vs 8-9

8 But I will remain in Ephesus until Pentecost;
9 for a wide door for effective service has opened to me, and there are many adversaries


The question I ask you is this:   Was Paul talking about a Jewish feast to a Christian church?

May God grant you understanding.

I could have sworn I've read these passages and yet never seen the connection to the subject matter nor understood the respect the Apostle Paul had for Pentecost.

Paul wanted to be in Jerusalem for Pentecost? Even if not to celebrate, definitely he acknowledged its significance.

It all just shows the shallowness of these people who whist in the same "never noticed the above" (maybe never read it even) state that many of us are and willingly accept, run full blast to display an imagined superiority that only proves the claims they make are false. Humility would have so well served Joagbaje here - as it is written "Pride goeth before a fall"

Nuclearboy and Analytical.
pentecost was a jewish festival, Paul didnt have anything against it. He didnt ascribe impotance to it as regards the holyspirit. Just thesame way he goes to the synagogues on Sabbath days . Does that make him an observer of sabbath or make sabbath a christian observation?

Acts 13:13-14
Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem.
[14] But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Acts 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:44
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Pastor Joagbaje:
I would like to ask you directly; what do you believe is the significance of the day of Pentecost to us Christians? Secondly, why do you think the Holy Spirit was poured out on that day and not on any other day?

Acts 2:1-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. (2) And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. (3) And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. (4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Recall these words of Peter commenting on the event:

Acts 2:16-17 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; (17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Pentecost was fulfillment of prophecy.

To suggest as you do that it was "mere coincidence" is to depict God as been arbitrary. But you know that God acts in accordance with his purposes and he is always in time ordering events as He has determined from before the foundation of the world.

aletheia:

Pastor Joagbaje:
I would like to ask you directly; what do you believe is the significance of the day of Pentecost to us Christians? Secondly, why do you think the Holy Spirit was poured out on that day and not on any other day?

It is a speciall day that Jews and proselytes from all over the world come together. Just like Christmas is a worldwide celebration today for christians. The message of the gospel is for all nations, there would not have been a better time for that.

To suggest as you do that it was "mere coincidence" is to depict God as been arbitrary. But you know that God acts in accordance with his purposes and he is always in time ordering events as He has determined from before the foundation of the world.[/b]

I had said earlier that maybe the word " coincidence " was not too appropriate to use. You know it has 2 major meanings; It means "two events happening at thesame time" it also means "something happening accidentally"
You are right that God is a purposeful God and in the sense of accidental coincidence , God does not have such.

But the fact that such event took place on the day of a jewish festival should not cause us to be named after such. nor holy Spirit. The name does not have any spiritual significans or fulfilment. It means "fifty" There are certain spiritual figures or numbers God uses that had meanings such as 3 (Godhead) or 7(fulness). We study about the 7 spirits of God. 7 lampstands etc that represents the fulness of the Spirit. But fifty doesnt have any prophetic interpretation. And we should understand that this name pentecostal was not attribut to the church until just about 100 years ago , after the Asuza street revival.

Joagbaje,

Joagbaje:

Nuclearboy and Analytical.
pentecost was a jewish festival, Paul didnt have anything against it. He didnt ascribe impotance to it as regards the holyspirit. Just thesame way he goes to the synagogues on Sabbath days . Does that make him an observer of sabbath or make sabbath a christian observation?

I asked you a question you didn't bother to answer.  When Paul talked about Pentecost, was he refering to a Jewish festival, bearing in mind that the church at Ephesus where he was writing from and the church at Corinth he was writing to do not observe any Jewish feast?  They were christian churches.  But all understood what he was talking about.  Or did the Gentile churches observe Jewish festivals?

Let me repeat:  Feast of Pentecost was a Jewish feast until the Holy Spirit came to fulfil prohecies given ages before about the outpouring and enduement with power and the promise of the Father which Jesus spoke about.  From thence, it took a christian meaning which the apostles and early church well understood.  It is in the same vein that the Feast of Passover took a christian meaning when the Lamb of God was offered as the eternal sacrifice on Good Friday, the day the passover lamb is slaughtered.

Before you misunderstand me, I am not talking about observance or celebration of any particular day.  That will be superficial.  I am talking about the meaning and significance of fulfilment of OT shadows in the NT, which you flippantly refused to acknowledge.

You make me laugh when you stated Paul didn't have anything against Jewish Feast of Pentecost.  Brother, it seems you have not studied the NT well.  Was he going to a feast with a couple of turtle-doves as sacrifice and a bunch of farm produce to be offered at the altar in the temple before the priests?

Joagbaje:

It is a speciall day that Jews and proselytes from all over the world come together. Just like Christmas is a worldwide celebration today for christians. The message of the gospel is for all nations, there would not have been a better time for that.

And I ask you, is that the only day in the Jewish calendar that Jews and proselytes come together from all over the world?  Do your study very well.  Why did the Holy Spirit choose to come at this particular celebration and not any other?  Someone just pointed you to Peter's sermon, refering to Joel.  Why did he connect the occurence to a prochecy and not just telling the people that it is because they gathered from all over?

Joagbaje:

But the fact that such event took place on the day of a jewish festival should not cause us to be named after such. nor holy Spirit. The name does not have any spiritual significans or fulfilment. It means "fifty" There are certain spiritual figures or numbers God uses that had meanings such as 3 (Godhead) or 7(fulness). We study about the 7 spirits of God. 7 lampstands etc that represents the fulness of the Spirit. But fifty doesnt have any prophetic interpretation. And we should understand that this name pentecostal was not attribut to the church until just about 100 years ago , after the Asuza street revival.

Either you didn't understand my point or you just want to remain at the surface.  Who is talking about being named after Pentecost or prohetic interpretation of 50?  Go over my posts very well.  I have been trying to debunk your assertion that:

1)  The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was 'mere coincidence' (which you grudgingly have accepted)

2) there is nothing pentecostal about the church and

3) that Pentecost is a Jewish festival

I don't want to go round in circles.  The christian church was born and empowered on Pentecost day when the Promise of the Father (the Holy Spirit) came and that fulfilment of prophecies makes it an integral part of the church of Jesus.  The old has given way to the new and better covenant.  And what a way to confirm that than by the firstruits of the harvest (the multitude that surrendered their lives that day)!  Whatever happened at Asuza was a revival of what used to be, it wasn't the origin.

God bless.

The only isms that I'm comfortable with are evangelism, baptism and biblical creationism.

OLAADEGBU, funny enough I wasn't even talking about pentecostalism (whatever that is!) but correcting erroneous assertions by Joagbaje.

Hi Analytical, how are you doing?

I have nothing against your discussion with Joagbaje. Infact I am blessed by your analytical input but what amazes me is why folks would label themselves as Baptists, Roman Catholics, Pentecostals, Lutherans, Wesleyans, anglicans and not as Christians, did any of those religions, organisations and individuals die for them? Why do they find it difficult to refer to themselves as Christians or followers of Jesus Christ?