Its popular believe that God knows everything and he foresees the future. Still, would it be wise to think he foresaw Adam and Eve's future and allowed it knowing it would affect you and I today?

ePAYSYSTEM:

Its popular believe that God knows everything and he foresees the future. Still, would it be wise to think he foresaw Adam and Eve's future and allowed it knowing it would affect you and I today?

God knew they would sin before creating them. It would not be wise to think or teach otherwise for the simple reason that :

1. we would be teaching falsehood-doctrinally stripping God of His foreknowledge,

2.greater and real inconsistencies would arise that would be nothing compared to the seeming inconsistency we would be trying to avoid.

5solas:

God knew they would sin before creating them. It would not be wise to think or teach otherwise for the simple reason that :

1. we would be teaching falsehood-doctrinally stripping God of His foreknowledge,

2.greater and real inconsistencies would arise that would be nothing compared to the seeming inconsistency we would be trying to avoid.

God is mean then, no? A drama king.

If he had the foreknowledge of what will happen, why then did he flip his lid and cursed everything in existence? What was the drama all about, then? From my own limited earthly knowledge, if a person has a foreknowledge of something and that something comes to pass as expected, that person undergoes very little to no emotional reactions because of the foreknowledge. Most of us are quite familiar with such instances.

If the bible god was really omniscient, then he is not supposed to react emotionally, positively or negatively, to anything that happens since he already knows the outcome. Lack of foreknowledge, surprise and shock caused by ignorance of what is to happen causes emotional reactions. So as you all can see,the garden of Eden drama tory get K-leg to say the least, unless the story is meant to be an allegory of a spiritual message that is not yet incorporated into the christian/islamic religious doctrines.

Or perhaps the bible god was just playacting and was just having himself some roaring fun pretending to be upset. Divine boredom?

To be candid I wonder why God in the Bible would say he regreted to have made man. The Bible also said that it pained God so much that the calamity of man became too much. If God Foreknows what will happen that way, why would he create man (Sodom and Gomorah) only to destroy them after a short period of time? Why would he create some to be thieves and some to appear innocent? why would the same mother born the good, the bad and the urgly and still read the Bible to all of them for a change? Why would there be a need for Jesus to die in the first place?

I feel God would be very wicked for deliberately making Nigeria to be a rubish heap. The meaning is that we ought not do nothing because they are all God's will to be so.

I think the doctrine of God knowing just everything should really be reconsidered.
My position is that God know anything he wishes to know. Most times, he forgoes certain knowledge at a point in time. I guess God hates wickedness, so why should he have created it? Why should he have made the devil in the first place.

There are a million and one questions not God but we need to consider before we conclude that knows or at least cares to knwo everything or not.

Jenwitemi:

God is mean then, no? A drama king.

If he had the foreknowledge of what will happen, why then did he flip his lid and cursed everything in existence? What was the drama all about, then? From my own limited earthly knowledge, if a person has a foreknowledge of something and that something comes to pass as expected, that person undergoes very little to no emotional reactions because of the foreknowledge. Most of us are quite familiar with such instances.

If the bible god was really omniscient, then he is not supposed to react emotionally, positively or negatively, to anything that happens since he already knows the outcome. Lack of foreknowledge, surprise and shock caused by ignorance of what is to happen causes emotional reactions. So as you all can see,the garden of Eden drama tory get K-leg to say the least, unless the story is meant to be an allegory of a spiritual message that is not yet incorporated into the christian/islamic religious doctrines.

Or perhaps the bible god was just playacting and was just having himself some roaring fun pretending to be upset. Divine boredom?

Well it is a good thing you are trying to get a reconciliation of the above. It is also good to be reverent.

Now to your question, that He expressed surprise does not necessarily imply that He was ignorant,especially when you compare this passage

with several others which clearly teach His foreknowledge.

Would you say He did not know where Adam was when He asked Him, ''where are you?'' Would you say that He only just arrived in Egypt,

when He declared that He had seen the suffering of His people?

7¶ And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their

taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;

8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large,

unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the

Hivites, and the Jebusites.(Exodus 14:7,.

In this passage then that someone could cite to show He does not have knowledge of all events, He declares His foreknowledge!

I think that in such passages He tempers His words to be such as we can understand. I do such things myself, though of course , not in the

same way: I use the present participle of verbs sometimes, when I should use the past participle, when talking to children, so they would

understand me.

The Lord speaks of ''future events with as much certainty as though they were already past'' (Rom. 4:17 TLB).

ePAYSYSTEM:

To be candid I wonder why God in the Bible would say he regreted to have made man. The Bible also said that it pained God so much that the calamity of man became too much. If God Foreknows what will happen that way, why would he create man (Sodom and Gomorah) only to destroy them after a short period of time? Why would he create some to be thieves and some to appear innocent? why would the same mother born the good, the bad and the urgly and still read the Bible to all of them for a change? Why would there be a need for Jesus to die in the first place?

I feel God would be very wicked for deliberately making Nigeria to be a rubish heap. The meaning is that we ought not do nothing because they are all God's will to be so.

I think the doctrine of God knowing just everything should really be reconsidered.
My position is that God know anything he wishes to know. Most times, he forgoes certain knowledge at a point in time. I guess God hates wickedness, so why should he have created it? Why should he have made the devil in the first place.

There are a million and one questions not God but we need to consider before we conclude that knows or at least cares to knwo everything or not.

Wishful thinking!

:-x

Questions like these should be avoided. If God chose to relate to us wearing agbada, we should not be asking if he wears pant or how he looks if the agbada is off.So if God relates to us as though he didn't have fore knowledge of their fall , we should not be probing into such.

Deuteronomy 29:29
29 The secret[ things belong] unto the our God: but those[ things which are] revealed[ belong] unto us and to our children for ever, that[ we] may do all the words of this law.

^^^ First time (to me): BRILLIANT ANSWER. You don start to read Bible O

Joagbaje:

Questions like these should be avoided. If God chose to relate to us wearing agbada, we should not be asking if he wears pant or how he looks if the agbada is off.So if God relates to us as though he didn't have fore knowledge of their fall , we should not be probing into such.

Deuteronomy 29:29
29 The secret[ things belong] unto the our God: but those[ things which are] revealed[ belong] unto us and to our children for ever, that[ we] may do all the words of this law.

I agree with you, but not completely. The foreknowledge of God is one of the revealed things and if it is questioned, as in the original post, we should not fail to uphold it, whatever deductions men choose to make from it.

God respects delegated authority. God has no right to intervene in something he has delegated to man. when there was trouble in heaven God did not wait for man or seek man's permission to intervene. The problem of this world is man's responsibility. not God. it is this responsibility God has given to his creatures that they will stand trial for/giver account of their stewardship on the last day. God naturally wouldn't have wanted his son to suffer like that put he has already given the power of Choice/responsibility in man's hand(Christ's hands) God has no problem with that cos man has no power to cause damages that is irredeemable by God himself. man suffers the consequence of his own actions. if u feel that the sin of Adam should be prevented first prove to God that if you were in adam's shoes you would have done better and not worse. how are you going to do that. by living a holy life in this already corrupt world. if u can do that, then u certainly can live a holy life in an uncorrupted/innocent world.

while you guys at it, especially nuclearboy, if Jesus was God, did he know that he was going to die? What then did he prepare for the earth, in order that things remain normal in his death? How did he control the the earth from death? Show us in the statement of Jesus. verses and chapter and books.

some of you people have such convoluted views one wonders if it would take 40+ years before you got any understanding, if at all.


eg

I feel God would be very wicked for deliberately making Nigeria to be a rubish heap.

would it be wise to think he foresaw Adam and Eve's future and allowed it knowing it would affect you and I today?

joagbaje
for the first time you gave a clear cut bible reply to a post. Not the twisted version Oyakhilome brain washes you with. God bless you. And let me add that we cannot know everything about God. Thats another reason why people should live for Christ and make heaven. Some of this questions we seem not to have a clear answer to here on earth, we will ask Jesus when we get to heaven and He will give us a perfect answer. A song writer said- "we will understand it better by and by" when we all get to heaven. I LOVE JESUS.

chinedumo:

God respects delegated authority. God has no right to intervene in something he has delegated to man.

As a fellow theist, I say, ''mind your language''.

5solas:

As a fellow theist, I say, ''mind your language''.

God is righteous . even Jesus asked to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness. God respects ordinances that he ordained. God does not break his rules. what will be the value of delegating authority and holding someone accountable for his action when u are always interfering and disrupting and taking over things. God will not take over the running of the earth. he will only assist Man cos he has given him sovereignty over earth matters but man is accountable to him cos man cannot be greater than God.  if u want God to intervene directly then u has to set aside and dissolve the authority structure he set up. God hasn't done that yet. and i must say that in God's eyes he didn't make a mistake by delegating authority everything he did was Good . their is nothing wrong with it . the thing that is wrong is man. so fellow theist have no fear. or should i ask instead what are u afraid of. u don't need to bend rules or break then to have the upper hand. God in his wisdom knows how to do his thing so stop trying to teach him what to do. he can defend himself he is not in danger of non-theist

I expected you to have spoken with more reverence, afterall, He,   ,  ''doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? '' (Daniel 4:35 ).

Ps 115:16The heavens are the heavens of the LORD, But the earth He has given to the sons of men.
Ps 8:
4What is man that You take thought of him,
And the son of man that You care for him?

5Yet You have made him a little lower than God,
And You crown him with glory and majesty!

6You make him to rule over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,

7All sheep and oxen,
And also the beasts of the field,

8The birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea,
Whatever passes through the paths of the seas.

Genesis1:27So God created man in his own image,

in the image of God he created him;

male and female he created them.

28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
Eph 4:1Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
IThe 1:11To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,

Romans 11:29[b]for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable[/b]. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

With due respect to all who have made comments, I wish to know why God will allow a scenario like this

[b]For man to get saved, Jesus had to die. It pained God that His only begothen son would die yet he allowed it because God so love the world. You can imagine what it took God to deliver mankind.
But in another vein, Judas Iscariot was condemned for being a gateway through which God fulfills his will.

So may we know whether God created Judas for that purpose if so why would Jesus call him the son of distruction and say he comes from the devil?

Is it not proper to believe that Judas only used his free moral agency wrongly just as most of us today do? should we hold God responsible for allowing us not to be robots that are controlled by certain written codes?

God has given us the power of choice just as he did the people of isreal by telling them to choose life in order that they may live or death by doing the good or the bad respectively. That is also our case today. If any Isrealite like Achan chose to do wrong he died. So his death was not pre-destined by God

Same way, Adam and Eves sins were never predestined by God who spent the life of his precious son to redeem what was lost. What would God gain making something bad and at the same time losing to make it right? Remember, nothing was at stake if God had not allowed Adam and Eve the choice to live or die. So it was their choice that they sin and not God's [/b]

Is UNQUESTIONABLE GOD,

It sounds some how to call God unquestionable.
The Bible at least has records of people who questioned God and got answers

David, Hezekiah, HABAKKUK, Job, Moses, etc. God even envited the people of isreal for reasoning together.

God is not like man to weilds authority without allowing for discussions.

NL now discusses God?
na wao!

isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, ,

I'll liken God's foreknowledge in this matter to that of a doctor of a pregnant woman. I'm not declaring it as absolute truth please.
It's like the doctor can see the womb of the pregnant woman, and he says you'll have twins, male and female, and even he can give the date of delivery. This doctor has foreknowledge alright, but couldn't have until the woman got pregnant. And what He's seen and declared can be adjusted by the woman to an extent. Like she could have a miscarriage, or go into early labour, or die. Just a thought sha, hope it helps.

“Did God know That Adam And Eve Would Sin Before Creating Them?” The answer lies in what the Bible teaches about God’s knowledge. We know from Scripture that God is omniscient, which literally means “all-knowing.”

Ps 147:5 - Great is our Lord and mighty in power;his understanding has no limit.
Prov 5:21 - For a man's ways are in full view of the LORD, and he examines all his paths.
Isa 46:10 - I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. . .and I will do all that I please
1 John 3:20 - . . . For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.


Scriptures like the afore mentioned leave no doubt that God’s knowledge is infinite and that He knows everything that has happened in the past, is happening now, and will happen in the future.

Looking at some of the superlatives in these verses— “his understanding has no limit”; “he knows everything”—it is clear that God’s knowledge isn’t merely greater than our own, but it is infinitely greater. He knows all things in totality. Not only that, but Isaiah 46:10 declares He not only knows everything, but He controls everything as well. How else could He “make known” to us what would happen in the future and state unequivocally that His plans will come to pass?

So did God know that Adam and Eve were going to sin? Yes! Absolutely! Were they out of His control at any time? Absolutely not. If God’s knowledge is not perfect, then there is a deficiency in His nature. Any deficiency in God’s nature means He cannot be God, for God’s very essence requires the perfection of all His attributes. Therefore, the answer to the first question must, by necessity, be “yes.”

Moving on to the crux of the question, “Why did God create Adam and Eve knowing ahead of time they were going to sin?” .To begin, we have already seen that God is omniscient and nothing can happen outside of His knowledge. So if God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, yet He created them anyway, it must mean that the fall of mankind was part of God’s sovereign plan from the beginning.

Now we must be careful to note that Adam and Eve falling into sin does not mean that God is the author of sin, nor that he tempted Adam and Eve to sin (James 1:13). The fall serves the purpose of God’s overall plan for creation and mankind. This, again, must be the case or else the fall of mankind would never have happened.

I was reading some articles of what some theologians call the "meta-narrative"  of Scripture, we see that biblical history can be roughly divided into three main sections:

1) paradise (Genesis 1-2);
2) paradise lost (Genesis 3 - Revelation 20);
3) paradise regained (Revelation 21-22).

By far the largest part of the narrative is devoted to moving from paradise lost to paradise regained. At the center of this meta-narrative is the cross.

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The cross was planned from the very beginning
(Acts 2:23 - But God, following his prearranged plan, . . . let you murder him[christ]).
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It was foreknown and foreordained that Christ would go to the cross and give His life as a ransom for many
(Matthew 20:28 - ". . . for I, the Messiah, did not come to be served. . .but to give my life as a ransom for many."
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Those chosen by God’s foreknowledge and predestined to be His people
(Ephesians 1:4 -Long ago, even before he made the world, God chose us to be his very own through what Christ would do for us.
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Reading Scripture very carefully and taking what has been said so far, we are led to conclude that the Fall of mankind were foreknown and foreordained by God.

Again we can come to a basic assertion that God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), and in the new heaven and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23). The glory of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of redemption is part of that.

The best place to see this in Scripture is Romans 9:19-24. Wrath and mercy display the riches of God’s glory, and you can’t get either without the fall of mankind. Therefore, all of these actions—fall, election, redemption, atonement—serve the purpose of glorifying God. When man fell into sin, God’s mercy was immediately displayed in not killing him on the spot. God’s patience and forbearance were also on display as mankind fell deeper into sin prior to the flood. God’s justice and wrath were on display as He executed judgment during the flood, and God’s mercy and grace were demonstrated as He saved Noah and his family. God’s wrath and justice will be revealed in the future when He deals with Satan once and for all (Revelation 20:7-10).

The ultimate exhibition of God’s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God’s grace was on display in pouring His wrath for sin on His Son, Jesus, instead of on us. God’s love and grace are on display in those whom He has saved (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship Him for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His justice and righteousness will finally be vindicated by the eternal punishment of all unrepentant sinners (Philippians 2:11). None of this could have come to pass without the rebellion of Satan and the fall of Adam and Eve.

The classic objection to this position is that God’s foreknowledge and foreordination of the fall does damage to man’s freedom. In other words, if God created mankind with full knowledge of the impending fall into sin, how can man be responsible for his sin?

“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established”

What this is saying is that God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom and the working of secondary causes (e.g., laws of nature) are preserved. Theologians call this “concurrence.” God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of God’s will (by 'free choices' we mean that our choices are not coerced by outside influences).

Wrapping this up, God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin in the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to manifest His glory in all its fullness. Even though the fall was foreknown and foreordained, our freedom in making choices is not violated because our free choices are the means by which God’s will is carried out.

_{*God bless you*}

@Tonye-t: Your post above negates Jesus to be God, since he lacked some knowledge of the future and unable to do all things. So why worship what is unable to do all things and lacks some knowledge of the future?

@ePAYSYSTEM: « on: June 05, 2010, 12:50 PM »

Its popular believe that God knows everything and he foresees the future. Still, would it be wise to think he foresaw Adam and Eve's future and allowed it knowing it would affect you and I today?

It is either the Biblical God is a God that has no full knowledge since He said He regretted humans, clearly indicating that now, when human has done what he has done, the Biblical God reflecte on the hindsight being 20/20, He would not have done the same thing He did.

Or the Bible writers are liars against God, for making Him so weak and incomplete in knowledge, probably the reason they kinda make Him look in His OT knowledge of the hindsight thing after the action of man, leaving His knowledge the same as that of Jesus in NT who declared that he cant do everything, and lacking the knowledge of the future in the end of time issue. Is either of the Gods worthy of worship, one regretting the other not knowing the future and unable to do all things? If you combine them together, you will still have a combined Gods that regret, unable to do all things and lacking knowledge of the future. Both are lacking future knowledge[s].

I cant worship anything ike that. There is One that has ability to do all things, know all things and not deficient in anything. That One is Worthy of Worship because He is the Creator.

@Jenwitemi: « #2 on: June 06, 2010, 05:11 AM »  

Quote from: 5solas on June 05, 2010, 10:35 PM
God knew they would sin before creating them. It would not be wise to think or teach otherwise for the simple reason that :

1. we would be teaching falsehood-doctrinally stripping God of His foreknowledge,

2.greater and real inconsistencies would arise that would be nothing compared to the seeming inconsistency we would be trying to avoid.

God is mean then, no? A drama king.

If he had the foreknowledge of what will happen, why then did he flip his lid and cursed everything in existence? What was the drama all about, then? From my own limited earthly knowledge, if a person has a foreknowledge of something and that something comes to pass as expected, that person undergoes very little to no emotional reactions because of the foreknowledge. Most of us are quite familiar with such instances.

The bolded is the Merciful God of the Bible? Its simiar in his reaction to the react of Jesus about the so called betrayal and cruciixion. Both acted as if they had no knowledge of the future when the actions occured in that future. Shall anyone believe either is God? I dont believe deficient in knowledge as God. Just imagine if your professor lacks knowledge in the very subject he is tenured to teach you.

If the bible god was really omniscient, then he is not supposed to react emotionally, positively or negatively, to anything that happens since he already knows the outcome. Lack of foreknowledge, surprise and shock caused by ignorance of what is to happen causes emotional reactions. So as you all can see,the garden of Eden drama tory get K-leg to say the least, unless the story is meant to be an allegory of a spiritual message that is not yet incorporated into the christian/islamic religious doctrines.

My man, read the Quran, you will never find such an outburst or pleading innocent of the future from Allah. In verse 36 of Surah Baqarah, chapter 2, the story begins about creation of Adam. You can just reseach what Allah said when the husband and wife disobeyed the order. That disobedience was a way to send them to the earth where they will have their children, who will have to work for reward by Mercy to enter Paradise that their parents came from, or the hell fire as punishment for disobedience that is worthy of punishment, when there is no seeking forgiveness. Allah did not curse man or woman. Adam and his mate were inspired with the word and process of forgiveness. They were forgiven, and it is befitting for a people who have been in paradise to never enter Hell. The case is different for Satan who never wished to seek forgiveness, except that he asked God to allow him to remain on earth till the last of the children of Adam and Eve lived out his earthly life. He will make it his effort to dissuade them from the right path, not by forcing them, but by suggestions, making what is wrong seem right, and what is right and correct guidance, repulsive.

Or perhaps the bible god was just playacting and was just having himself some roaring fun pretending to be upset. Divine boredom?

The actuaity is that the Bible does give wrong impression of God, by above and many others, including calling Him father of people and one of them for some reason begotten son, while they can say his mother was the wife of Biblical God, since they will now be saying God is a fornicator or adulterer, which they have implied, anyhow. You should read the Bible and see how terrible God is painted, from the first action to create (God sees that the form was good [asif to indicate that He just discovered it]).
 


@ePAYSYSTEM (m): « #3 on: June 06, 2010, 10:39 PM »  

To be candid I wonder why God in the Bible would say he regreted to have made man. The Bible also said that it pained God so much that the calamity of man became too much. If God Foreknows what will happen that way, why would he create man (Sodom and Gomorah) only to destroy them after a short period of time? Why would he create some to be thieves and some to appear innocent? why would the same mother born the good, the bad and the urgly and still read the Bible to all of them for a change? Why would there be a need for Jesus to die in the first place?

Seek a God Who knows everything and His senses and action and reactions are not carbon copies to that of man, created beings. Afterall, God is the Creator. He should be above all things, including deficiencies.

I feel God would be very wicked for deliberately making Nigeria to be a rubish heap. The meaning is that we ought not do nothing because they are all God's will to be so.

God says in the Quran that He will not change the condition of a people, until they themselves begin to act towards changing it. Its similar to if a child does not stretch his hand, wanting people to carry him, no one may carry him early and adequate for the purpose. For example, if a child is wet, or hungry before the time that he is normally addended to about the two, his parent may say that he is okay in his condition.

I think the doctrine of God knowing just everything should really be reconsidered.
My position is that God know anything he wishes to know. Most times, he forgoes certain knowledge at a point in time. I guess God hates wickedness, so why should he have created it? Why should he have made the devil in the first place.

There are a million and one questions not God but we need to consider before we conclude that knows or at least cares to knwo everything or not.

my man, your Bible has confused you, allowing you to think about God in an unworthy light. Read the Quran. YOu can read it on line; www.quran.com, is one website you can go. There are many more do your research and see that God is different from gods. The gods lack knowledge. God knows everything, that is Allah the Almighty.

@Tonye-t: « #27 on: Today at 03:21:06 PM »

@ nopuqeater,
Which of my Jesus exactly, is it the Jesus in the flesh or the Christ after ressurection? pls explain

Do you have two Jesusse? If there is one Jesus for you, then before you said he was crucified, he said he was unable to do all things and lacked the knowledge of the future by not knowing the end of time, etc. At the so called crucifixion he cried out that a God abandoned him. He didnt say father or co-god, but God. This statement on the cross betrays the lies that he was a son, or partner of God he cried to. After the so called crucifixion, he was said to wake up afetr three days, time badly calculated not making three days acording to his own prophesy, but then if he died, will the blood still be flowing as it flowed in the body of the living, which is the reason the women insisted among them to anoint him with oil, a healing liquid for ailments. But in the post "so called crucifixion", he said he will return soon enough before all the people who listened to him died. Its been over 2000 years my man. Has he returned or is there a soul from among his listeners still alive?

Choose which Jesus that pleases you. What you will find is a one that is not God. Read your own post. Was he omnipotent, etc?

I know what you're trying to get at - incessant argument but i pray it should be constructive such as others could learn ok!?

Deducible from your question would mean:

- You dont believe Jesus was God in the flesh, else He wont have call upon another God.

My tool for validation is John.1:1-2 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

The above verses made it very clear of the existence of a God who dwelt with God, yet was God himself. Now for God's original plan of salvation to be fulfilled it will mean He comes down and identify himself as Man and this He did in Humility even though He had the power to take up the fashion of a God

Phil 2:6-8

6 Who, being in the very nature God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
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There were times in his 3 yrs sojourn He would want to have exhibited His God-image but the low-knowledge and blindfoldness of the people as well as his humility would restrain him to ( Matt.3:17). When Jesus cried to a God on the cross for forsaking Him, he did that because He had submitted his celestial glory for a servant's and thus was nothing but powerless and became obedient(def.submissive of another's will) unto death.

Now when he resurrected, He could have his glory and honour back as it was before his coming

- John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him(God) known.

- Rom 9:5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

- 2 Cor 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

- Col 1:15-20 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.


There is a big difference between the Jesus in the flesh and the glory of the ressurrected Christ (one personality - two forms). cheers

Tonye-t:

“Did God know That Adam And Eve Would Sin Before Creating Them?” The answer lies in what the Bible teaches about God’s knowledge. We know from Scripture that God is omniscient, which literally means “all-knowing.”

Ps 147:5 - Great is our Lord and mighty in power;his understanding has no limit.
Prov 5:21 - For a man's ways are in full view of the LORD, and he examines all his paths.
Isa 46:10 - I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. . .and I will do all that I please
1 John 3:20 - . . . For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.


Scriptures like the afore mentioned leave no doubt that God’s knowledge is infinite and that He knows everything that has happened in the past, is happening now, and will happen in the future.

Looking at some of the superlatives in these verses— “his understanding has no limit”; “he knows everything”—it is clear that God’s knowledge isn’t merely greater than our own, but it is infinitely greater. He knows all things in totality. Not only that, but Isaiah 46:10 declares He not only knows everything, but He controls everything as well. How else could He “make known” to us what would happen in the future and state unequivocally that His plans will come to pass?

So did God know that Adam and Eve were going to sin? Yes! Absolutely! Were they out of His control at any time? Absolutely not. If God’s knowledge is not perfect, then there is a deficiency in His nature. Any deficiency in God’s nature means He cannot be God, for God’s very essence requires the perfection of all His attributes. Therefore, the answer to the first question must, by necessity, be “yes.”

Moving on to the crux of the question, “Why did God create Adam and Eve knowing ahead of time they were going to sin?” .To begin, we have already seen that God is omniscient and nothing can happen outside of His knowledge. So if God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, yet He created them anyway, it must mean that the fall of mankind was part of God’s sovereign plan from the beginning.

Now we must be careful to note that Adam and Eve falling into sin does not mean that God is the author of sin, nor that he tempted Adam and Eve to sin (James 1:13). The fall serves the purpose of God’s overall plan for creation and mankind. This, again, must be the case or else the fall of mankind would never have happened.

I was reading some articles of what some theologians call the "meta-narrative" of Scripture, we see that biblical history can be roughly divided into three main sections:

1) paradise (Genesis 1-2);
2) paradise lost (Genesis 3 - Revelation 20);
3) paradise regained (Revelation 21-22).

By far the largest part of the narrative is devoted to moving from paradise lost to paradise regained. At the center of this meta-narrative is the cross.

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The cross was planned from the very beginning
(Acts 2:23 - But God, following his prearranged plan, . . . let you murder him[christ]).
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It was foreknown and foreordained that Christ would go to the cross and give His life as a ransom for many
(Matthew 20:28 - ". . . for I, the Messiah, did not come to be served. . .but to give my life as a ransom for many."
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Those chosen by God’s foreknowledge and predestined to be His people
(Ephesians 1:4 -Long ago, even before he made the world, God chose us to be his very own through what Christ would do for us.
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Reading Scripture very carefully and taking what has been said so far, we are led to conclude that the Fall of mankind were foreknown and foreordained by God.

Again we can come to a basic assertion that God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), and in the new heaven and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23). The glory of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of redemption is part of that.

The best place to see this in Scripture is Romans 9:19-24. Wrath and mercy display the riches of God’s glory, and you can’t get either without the fall of mankind. Therefore, all of these actions—fall, election, redemption, atonement—serve the purpose of glorifying God. When man fell into sin, God’s mercy was immediately displayed in not killing him on the spot. God’s patience and forbearance were also on display as mankind fell deeper into sin prior to the flood. God’s justice and wrath were on display as He executed judgment during the flood, and God’s mercy and grace were demonstrated as He saved Noah and his family. God’s wrath and justice will be revealed in the future when He deals with Satan once and for all (Revelation 20:7-10).

The ultimate exhibition of God’s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God’s grace was on display in pouring His wrath for sin on His Son, Jesus, instead of on us. God’s love and grace are on display in those whom He has saved (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship Him for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His justice and righteousness will finally be vindicated by the eternal punishment of all unrepentant sinners (Philippians 2:11). None of this could have come to pass without the rebellion of Satan and the fall of Adam and Eve.

The classic objection to this position is that God’s foreknowledge and foreordination of the fall does damage to man’s freedom. In other words, if God created mankind with full knowledge of the impending fall into sin, how can man be responsible for his sin?

“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established”

What this is saying is that God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom and the working of secondary causes (e.g., laws of nature) are preserved. Theologians call this “concurrence.” God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of God’s will (by 'free choices' we mean that our choices are not coerced by outside influences).

Wrapping this up, God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin in the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to manifest His glory in all its fullness. Even though the fall was foreknown and foreordained, our freedom in making choices is not violated because our free choices are the means by which God’s will is carried out.

_{*God bless you*}

May the Lord bless you richly for this post. I had to sit up as I started reading. It is an awesome post and reflects completely my understanding of this issue.