Summarising all this in one sentence; The bible God deliberately, in full knowledge, engineered all these dramas, right.

Eeem, if that is the case, why blame Eve for the original sin? Why blame Lucifer for rebelling against this scheming God? Why are there even sins in the first place since all these dramas must exist and come to pass for the "glory" of God? Your long expose explained absolutely nothing thus far. It only infers to the whole creation as being nothing more than an interactive 3D holographic video game built to please a bored entity we call, God.

Tonye-t:

“Did God know That Adam And Eve Would Sin Before Creating Them?” The answer lies in what the Bible teaches about God’s knowledge. We know from Scripture that God is omniscient, which literally means “all-knowing.”

Ps 147:5 - Great is our Lord and mighty in power;his understanding has no limit.
Prov 5:21 - For a man's ways are in full view of the LORD, and he examines all his paths.
Isa 46:10 - I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. . .and I will do all that I please
1 John 3:20 - . . . For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.


Scriptures like the afore mentioned leave no doubt that God’s knowledge is infinite and that He knows everything that has happened in the past, is happening now, and will happen in the future.

Looking at some of the superlatives in these verses— “his understanding has no limit”; “he knows everything”—it is clear that God’s knowledge isn’t merely greater than our own, but it is infinitely greater. He knows all things in totality. Not only that, but Isaiah 46:10 declares He not only knows everything, but He controls everything as well. How else could He “make known” to us what would happen in the future and state unequivocally that His plans will come to pass?

So did God know that Adam and Eve were going to sin? Yes! Absolutely! Were they out of His control at any time? Absolutely not. If God’s knowledge is not perfect, then there is a deficiency in His nature. Any deficiency in God’s nature means He cannot be God, for God’s very essence requires the perfection of all His attributes. Therefore, the answer to the first question must, by necessity, be “yes.”

Moving on to the crux of the question, “Why did God create Adam and Eve knowing ahead of time they were going to sin?” .To begin, we have already seen that God is omniscient and nothing can happen outside of His knowledge. So if God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, yet He created them anyway, it must mean that the fall of mankind was part of God’s sovereign plan from the beginning.

Now we must be careful to note that Adam and Eve falling into sin does not mean that God is the author of sin, nor that he tempted Adam and Eve to sin (James 1:13). The fall serves the purpose of God’s overall plan for creation and mankind. This, again, must be the case or else the fall of mankind would never have happened.

I was reading some articles of what some theologians call the "meta-narrative"  of Scripture, we see that biblical history can be roughly divided into three main sections:

1) paradise (Genesis 1-2);
2) paradise lost (Genesis 3 - Revelation 20);
3) paradise regained (Revelation 21-22).

By far the largest part of the narrative is devoted to moving from paradise lost to paradise regained. At the center of this meta-narrative is the cross.

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The cross was planned from the very beginning
(Acts 2:23 - But God, following his prearranged plan, . . . let you murder him[christ]).
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It was foreknown and foreordained that Christ would go to the cross and give His life as a ransom for many
(Matthew 20:28 - ". . . for I, the Messiah, did not come to be served. . .but to give my life as a ransom for many."
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Those chosen by God’s foreknowledge and predestined to be His people
(Ephesians 1:4 -Long ago, even before he made the world, God chose us to be his very own through what Christ would do for us.
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Reading Scripture very carefully and taking what has been said so far, we are led to conclude that the Fall of mankind were foreknown and foreordained by God.

Again we can come to a basic assertion that God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), and in the new heaven and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23). The glory of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of redemption is part of that.

The best place to see this in Scripture is Romans 9:19-24. Wrath and mercy display the riches of God’s glory, and you can’t get either without the fall of mankind. Therefore, all of these actions—fall, election, redemption, atonement—serve the purpose of glorifying God. When man fell into sin, God’s mercy was immediately displayed in not killing him on the spot. God’s patience and forbearance were also on display as mankind fell deeper into sin prior to the flood. God’s justice and wrath were on display as He executed judgment during the flood, and God’s mercy and grace were demonstrated as He saved Noah and his family. God’s wrath and justice will be revealed in the future when He deals with Satan once and for all (Revelation 20:7-10).

The ultimate exhibition of God’s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God’s grace was on display in pouring His wrath for sin on His Son, Jesus, instead of on us. God’s love and grace are on display in those whom He has saved (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship Him for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His justice and righteousness will finally be vindicated by the eternal punishment of all unrepentant sinners (Philippians 2:11). None of this could have come to pass without the rebellion of Satan and the fall of Adam and Eve.

The classic objection to this position is that God’s foreknowledge and foreordination of the fall does damage to man’s freedom. In other words, if God created mankind with full knowledge of the impending fall into sin, how can man be responsible for his sin?

“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established”

What this is saying is that God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom and the working of secondary causes (e.g., laws of nature) are preserved. Theologians call this “concurrence.” God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of God’s will (by 'free choices' we mean that our choices are not coerced by outside influences).

Wrapping this up, God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin in the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to manifest His glory in all its fullness. Even though the fall was foreknown and foreordained, our freedom in making choices is not violated because our free choices are the means by which God’s will is carried out.

_{*God bless you*}

Jenwitemi:

Summarising all this in one sentence; The bible God deliberately, in full knowledge, engineered all these dramas, right.

Eeem, if that is the case, why blame Eve for the original sin? Why blame Lucifer for rebelling against this scheming God? Why are there even sins in the first place since all these dramas must exist and come to pass for the "glory" of God? Your long expose explained absolutely nothing thus far. It only infers to the whole creation as being nothing more than an interactive 3D holographic video game built to please a bored entity we call, God.

“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established”
(http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html?body=/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_III.html)

What you just stated makes no sense whatsoever. God is not an author of sin, yet, he engineers everything with foreknowledge of the effects of his engineering? You are tying yourself in knots, as usual.

5solas:

“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established”
(http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html?body=/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_III.html)

Friens, I guess I am shot of words. Its likely we are accusing God of what we is not and what he doesnt do. I still wish to know if anyone had ever read any part of the scriptures where God indicated he loves Sins. I wish to see where God declares that he made Satan to tempt people to perfection.

We we are saying here looks like God employed the devil for the outworking of his purposes. Is it really right? Then the devil should have a compensation. If it is also true that God did not originate Sin, how would his masterplan come to work out if there was no way Adam and Eve would sin. I cease to believe that all these bad match God's masterplan.

God's Original Plan is that everything He made having been declared Fine and Good, would stay in a United family of God's creation in Paradise. God's masterplan for the earth include that having been originally made a paradise, would return a paradise and would remain a paradise. For the out working of that plan, Sin would be removed on earth as the wicked would also. The heaven remains for the spiritual sons of God. Know that the Angels including Jesus Christ are servants and messangers. Nevertheless, Jesus was made to be above others as the Chief of the angels. Well, we are not going to that one here because I like the way this thread is going.

Please I want anyone who can to prove that God's masterplan includes playing with sins and righting the wrongs already created.

Jenwitemi:

What you just stated makes no sense whatsoever. God is not an author of sin, yet, he engineers everything with foreknowledge of the effects of his engineering? You are tying yourself in knots, as usual.

I perceive you are surprised, did I rock your atheistic stool? That would be a pleasure.

As usual?

nopuqeater:

@Jenwitemi: « #2 on: June 06, 2010, 05:11 AM »  The bolded is the Merciful God of the Bible? Its simiar in his reaction to the react of Jesus about the so called betrayal and cruciixion. Both acted as if they had no knowledge of the future when the actions occured in that future. Shall anyone believe either is God? I dont believe deficient in knowledge as God. Just imagine if your professor lacks knowledge in the very subject he is tenured to teach you.


My man, read the Quran, you will never find such an outburst or pleading innocent of the future from Allah. In verse 36 of Surah Baqarah, chapter 2, the story begins about creation of Adam. You can just reseach what Allah said when the husband and wife disobeyed the order. That disobedience was a way to send them to the earth where they will have their children, who will have to work for reward by Mercy to enter Paradise that their parents came from, or the hell fire as punishment for disobedience that is worthy of punishment, when there is no seeking forgiveness. Allah did not curse man or woman. Adam and his mate were inspired with the word and process of forgiveness. They were forgiven, and it is befitting for a people who have been in paradise to never enter Hell. The case is different for Satan who never wished to seek forgiveness, except that he asked God to allow him to remain on earth till the last of the children of Adam and Eve lived out his earthly life. He will make it his effort to dissuade them from the right path, not by forcing them, but by suggestions, making what is wrong seem right, and what is right and correct guidance, repulsive.


The actuaity is that the Bible does give wrong impression of God, by above and many others, including calling Him father of people and one of them for some reason begotten son, while they can say his mother was the wife of Biblical God, since they will now be saying God is a fornicator or adulterer, which they have implied, anyhow. You should read the Bible and see how terrible God is painted, from the first action to create (God sees that the form was good [asif to indicate that He just discovered it]).
 


@ePAYSYSTEM (m): « #3 on: June 06, 2010, 10:39 PM »  Seek a God Who knows everything and His senses and action and reactions are not carbon copies to that of man, created beings. Afterall, God is the Creator. He should be above all things, including deficiencies.


God says in the Quran that He will not change the condition of a people, until they themselves begin to act towards changing it. Its similar to if a child does not stretch his hand, wanting people to carry him, no one may carry him early and adequate for the purpose. For example, if a child is wet, or hungry before the time that he is normally addended to about the two, his parent may say that he is okay in his condition.


my man, your Bible has confused you, allowing you to think about God in an unworthy light. Read the Quran. YOu can read it on line; www.quran.com, is one website you can go. There are many more do your research and see that God is different from gods. The gods lack knowledge. God knows everything, that is Allah the Almighty.

@ nopuqeater - I think the Bible refrences sited by Tonye-T has helped you a lot. You can read it again here.

- Col 1:15-20 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

I think you have to meditate also on this verse so as to have a better understand as regards the plan of God Almighty.

[size=14pt]- 2 Cor 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.[/size]

Tonye-t:


I know what you're trying to get at - incessant argument but i pray it should be constructive such as others could learn ok!?

Deducible from your question would mean:

- You dont believe Jesus was God in the flesh, else He wont have call upon another God.

My tool for validation is John.1:1-2 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

The above verses made it very clear of the existence of a God who dwelt with God, yet was God himself. Now for God's original plan of salvation to be fulfilled it will mean He comes down and identify himself as Man and this He did in Humility even though He had the power to take up the fashion of a God

Phil 2:6-8

6 Who, being in the very nature God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
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There were times in his 3 yrs sojourn He would want to have exhibited His God-image but the low-knowledge and blindfoldness of the people as well as his humility would restrain him to ( Matt.3:17). When Jesus cried to a God on the cross for forsaking Him, he did that because He had submitted his celestial glory for a servant's and thus was nothing but powerless and became obedient(def.submissive of another's will) unto death.

Now when he resurrected, He could have his glory and honour back as it was before his coming

- John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,  who is at the Father's side, has made him(God) known.

- Rom 9:5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

- 2 Cor 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

- Col 1:15-20 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.


There is a big difference between the Jesus in the flesh and the glory of the ressurrected Christ (one personality - two forms). cheers

@ Tonye-t . God bless you , thanks for not arguing but teaching, For Real "WISDOM IS THE PRINCIPAL THING"

Weather you believe it or not JESUS IS COMING SOON.

God Bless Us All.

No, you merely surprised me how you can tie yourself in knots in public to show how clueless you are about what you claim to believe in, like most christians usually do. Better to just save yourself the embarrassment and don't say anything anymore.

5solas:

I perceive you are surprised, did I rock your atheistic stool? That would be a pleasure.

As usual?

All this post has once again proven xtianity as a religion with unknowlegable gods, man worshippers and ignorant folowers

ePAYSYSTEM:
Its popular believe that God knows everything and he foresees the future. Still, would it be wise to think he foresaw Adam and Eve's future and allowed it knowing it would affect you and I today?

the bible says he is omniscient - therefore, yup god knew about adam and eve.