Hehe, commander. .  trust me, I fell off my chair when I heard that 'mmPMs' (initially thought it had to do with the financial scandal of British MPs. . . how very wrong I was!).

nuclearboy:

When you say individualism though, I get the idea that you forget such as Moses, Elijah and Jesus Himself were accused of such. Truth is that there will be errors in individual understandings but these are incomparable to "institutionalized" congregational errors. Where one afflicts an individual, imagine error accepted as truth in a congregation as large as RCCG and its far reaching effect.

Good point, sir. I considered that and tried to cover both sides (the individualism/isolationism on one hand, and the 'group fellowships' on the other hand).

The point here is that a 'believer' is seeking to grow in his/her relationship with Jesus Christ. It could be taken for granted that Moses and Elijah pointed to Jesus rather than to themselves (if that is what Luke 9:30-31 and 24:27 may yield) - so again, the DIYs and isolationism that seem to appeal to many Christians today could as well be ripe ground for being misled.

I have to be careful here: the point is not to say that a believer cannot or should not seek God personally. No, that is not what I'm saying. In fact, I've acknowledged the importance of a "personal relationship" that a believer has with God - and having initially established that relationship, growth and development come next. A believer should personally study the Bible, personally pray, personally seek to serve according to the capacity he/she is granted by the Lord. . . as well these things should be encouraged in group fellowships.

What we have to exercise discernment on is where either forms (personal/individual or group fellowships) tend to lead away from Christ or mar the believer's walk with God. The example you gave about the RCCG points to "institutionalized" rather than "individualized" problem. But it's not just the 'institutionalized' identity that produces the problem - the believer at the individual level also creates problems for himself/herself. Between either parts, discernment becomes necessary.

^^ Great points, Bro. Where my disagreement comes is obvious from what I tried to communicate to Bishop Tudor earlier. I "know" because it happened to me. The "establishment" tries to get you to "conform". Sadly, most ministries today are self-serving extensions of their founders so the idea is for you to conform to the ideas of a man. Rather than that, I prefer to trust God to "teach" rightly.

Oftentimes (in my experience) I see people "seemingly" walk away and "seemingly" backtrack/backslide/"fall in error"/etc in the early stages of their Christian walk. Too often, I have seen these same people RETURN years later as believers of such strength that it scares me;, that I am wont to believe this was a walk/"falling away" designed by God. Our limitations do not allow us wait to see where an issue will end before we judge it/them and that is why I am all for individual walks - God has it easy leading you the way HE wants you to go rather than the regular "start to bleat when I say so" modus we see in ministries today

viaro:

Maybe I didn't get you; but I suppose when you posted initially you had a point to pass across. The way you came across with whatever you wanted to post makes one wonder what exactly your point was.

Geez i wonder why its only you that has a problem understanding my point. Nuclearboy did and I can only believe its something else that bothers you.

On the one hand, I may have missed it - but nowhere did I claim to "know it all" for you to have gone about writing off people that way. If you had a more brilliant point to make, at the very least you were invited to do so without being unduely concerned about what others are trying to say.

Where did i say viaro claims to know it all? Did i mention your name? Funny thing is when I mentioned that I had other people in mind but the way only u seems insecure in fidgety about it one wonders if within yourself you feel u are guilty.

Bottomline: how does the new convert benefit from what you are suggesting and then going down the terminus?

I have stated that a million times, that you deliberately miss it just points to a bruised ego

Please show me where I have posted any exegesis in this thread? Just one. I think that you need to calm down and not hastily jump to conclusions. Fine - we're not about "cramming" or "exegesis" - I for one didn't make any such claims anywhere. So where is all this coming from?

The threads that are supposed to spawn off from this one, what is going to be done there if not the usual self righteous exegizing and whatnot??

If the new believer is to be taught, at what point would such "teaching" come across to you as close enough to what you suggested without it being again written off the way you have been doing?

At the point when you begin passing of YOUR personal opinion, understanding and interpretation of scriprure as the truth as is done by most today.

I read your post - perhaps YOU need to calm down and read what others are saying. Did you miss the fact I pointed out this experience earlier before trying to bring in what I never said anywhere about "cramming" the whole Bible? If you took time to read what others are saying, I don't see why this point would even bother you in the first place.
I didn't get off the bar with you, and you're left alone counting your bottles.

Now I see why you are crying.

You have advocated your own way, yes you did. This is what you said:. .  and you make that recommendation because you have drawn the conclusion that those who read issues here are still hanging on to childish hankerings as you make out? Is that why you find it is "too late" for you to have a relationship or experience with God and suppose that others may find yours anything above what this thread attempts?

Unluckily for you, that was not my suggestion for new converts in light of this thread. If you read down the post you'd have seen it. On any other day, that will be my suggestion BUT This thread is about helping the new convert in his faith suggestions should be made along those lines. Thats why I took to consideration and suggested he be taught how to have a personal relationship with god. If I wanted to advice they abandon the faith on this thread will I in the same breath advocate they be taught about personal relationship with god?

The funny thing about your posts is that you vroom in here and act dismissively - yet, even on invitation to share something better, the bottomline is that the 'new believer' is not brought into that relationship with God, no?
Please get off your high horse. You may need go back and re-read what YOU wrote and see. What did you mean by "If he crams the whole bible and yet has no connection with your god then its purely baseless and of no use"?? I did not advocate that at all, and would I be surprised that you are too soon forgetting where you're coming from?

Again, serious insecurity at play. So this is what is paining you since?

Who said YOU advocated it at all? I stated on my own to say that a believer without that personal relationship even if he knows the bible by heart its totally pointless.

Please show me anywhere you find that a believer as a "believer" has no relationship with God. I didn't bind you to any authority anywhere, so no need to come off sounding insecure. The point is simple: if you find something to the contrary, then let's hear you. Is that too much to ask?

I have friends who believe yet admit to me they really dont have a personal relationship with god. There are even some new converts never taught about how to get this relationship by their MOG to keep then dependent on them for prayers, knowledge etc.

For you to come out and arbitrarily declare that no believer is without a personal relationship is pure arrogance.

What you arrogantly throw about is of no importance. god knows their heart and is all that matters

A believer as a "believer" already has a relationship with God - what comes next is to develop that relationship. In other words: GROW in that relationship. If you can properly establish that a believer is one who does not have a relationship with God, by all means please do so and let's read you.

There are believers who dont hv a personal relationship it dont matter what u claim.

^^ thank you, Tudor. The argument is unnecessary and I won't further your complaints.

Please, how do we get past this battle of Lords?

Nuclearboy and co.
When you say things like 'who is a better teacher, it'll be better if they learn on their own, a human teacher doesn't impart knowledge but lives by example', all indications that people shouldn't be taught the Word of God, it begs your knowledge of the Word or plan of God.
Viaro has kinda explained issues to nuclearboy. Half truths are dangerous and polluted. I think you're standing on an half/polluted truth. Of course a believer should study the Word for himself. You agree that far, but it's beyond that. Teaching/teachers are what God has given the church for our development. Not one without the other, but the TWO.
A denial of this is a denial of the Word and will of God. Believers are sheep with shepherd(s). Hebrews 13v17 calls us to obedience and submission, not the independence of the prodigal Son that you're clamouring for.

Tudór:

[size=20pt]There are believers who dont hv a personal relationship[/size] it dont matter what u claim.

what then is the basis of their belief if they dont have a personal relationship with God? its just like u claiming to once be a "Christian" at the age of 11. what did u know about Christianity at that age?

The level of ignorance disguised as sarcasm is laughable. bro, if u cannot get right the fundamental concepts of Christianity, then u are least qualified to form an opinion on Christianity.

Our Lord Jesus was a teacher. Paul was a teacher. They both told us to teach others the Word.
In Matthew 28v18-20, we told among other things to go and TEACH all nations. TEACHING them to observe ALL things that Jesus commanded. He's given us the command, not only the Holy Spirit.
In 2Timothy 2v2 says what you have HEARD, commit to FAITHFUL men, who shall be able to TEACH others also. It's not the of Spirit of Christ to be unteachable, and everyone is not the same. You don't talk to people anyhow and say we're all the same. Christians are taught to respect authority.
God has commited new believers into the hands of His labourers to feed and teach, just as literal children are commited to the hands of their parents by God to nurture and direct. That's what we call follow.up in some circles. Children should NOT be left to themselves.

Okay please let's take that aspect of the discussion (that Tudor introduced) to another thread, lest this one gets derailed. Abeg. Thanks!  

Image123:

Nuclearboy and co.
When you say things like 'who is a better teacher, it'll be better if they learn on their own, a human teacher doesn't impart knowledge but lives by example', all indications that people shouldn't be taught the Word of God, it begs your knowledge of the Word or plan of God.
Viaro has kinda explained issues to nuclearboy. Half truths are dangerous and polluted. I think you're standing on an half/polluted truth. Of course a believer should study the Word for himself. You agree that far, but it's beyond that. Teaching/teachers are what God has given the church for our development. Not one without the other, but the TWO.
A denial of this is a denial of the Word and will of God. Believers are sheep with shepherd(s). Hebrews 13v17 calls us to obedience and submission, not the independence of the prodigal Son that you're clamouring for.

Far from it.

of what point is a teacher whose lessons are limited to words and not deeds? whats the point of dotrinal teachings and not exemplary teachings? why is there so much debate on doctrines but with little emphasis on the commandments of Christ?

why is it that between 1999-2007 Adeboye was the most influential Nigerian, yet there was no improvement in the lives of the average man? Adeboye had access to the president and he had 2 million people who learnt from his feet every month, yet the country is plagued with moral decadence.  is Adeboye leading people to God or to to hell? did God ask adeboye to ask people for tithes? why did RCCG benefit from the NPA economic scams? why has the blessings of God been defined as the accumulation of material things and poverty described as a satanic infliction? where did these alien doctrines come from?

I have nothing against Adeboye or RCCG, u can substitute Adeboye for Bakare, Oyedepo, Joshua or whoever. But the point remains that believers do not need a human teacher. All u need is someone to lead you to Christ. . . .afterwards each individual should walk with God and learn from the counsels of the holy spirit.

Noetic
I never said that a teacher should be limited, whether in Word or deed. What I said is that a teacher is needed, that's what the Bible says. He gave us teachers, don't tell me He didn't. So we're permitted to lead people to Christ. Some will not buy that idea i tell you, and they've got scriptures to quote for it. Jesus commanded us to teach, noetic says no, just lead them to Christ and then individuals move on from there. That's not in the Bible, thank God I follow Jesus Christ and the Bible, not your fine view.

Image123:

Our Lord Jesus was a teacher. Paul was a teacher. They both told us to teach others the Word.
In Matthew 28v18-20, we told among other things to go and TEACH all nations. TEACHING them to observe ALL things that Jesus commanded. He's given us the command, not only the Holy Spirit.

You are missing the whole point. what kind of a teacher was Jesus? how influential was He?
Jesus made friends with sinners and thieves only so that they may become better persons and receive the gift of salvation through genuine repentance. . . .A good example is Zacheus the tax collector and mathew wo later became an apostle.
The same can be said of Apostle Paul who sacrificed earthly pleasure to ensure that this same gospel is preached to the gentiles at the detriment of his lives.

In what light and on what basis do u then compare the Lord and Apostle paul with the later day criminals called teachers? what are they teaching?

Perhaps we should start by summarizing the message of the gospel of JC. which is to show unconditional love to all men irrespective of their beliefs, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, help the needy . . .which includes those in prison, those who cannot afford education, health care and other basic services.
which of this boxes do the later day self-professed teacher tick?

In 2Timothy 2v2 says what you have HEARD, commit to FAITHFUL men, who shall be able to TEACH others also. It's not the of Spirit of Christ to be unteachable, and everyone is not the same. You don't talk to people anyhow and say we're all the same. Christians are taught to respect authority.

who are these faithful men? what makes them faithful? is it their theological expertise or their testimony in JC? and what authority? the church authority or governmental authority?

God has commited new believers into the hands of His labourers to [size=28pt]feed[/size] and teach, just as literal children are commited to the hands of their parents by God to nurture and direct. That's what we call follow.up in some circles. Children should NOT be left to themselves.

how many believers are being fed, physically and spiritually like Jesus did?

Image123:

Noetic
I never said that a teacher should be limited, whether in Word or deed. What I said is that a teacher is needed, that's what the Bible says. He gave us teachers, don't tell me He didn't. So we're permitted to lead people to Christ. Some will not buy that idea i tell you, and they've got scriptures to quote for it.[size=28pt] Jesus commanded us to teach, noetic says no,[/size] just lead them to Christ and then individuals move on from there. That's not in the Bible, thank God I follow Jesus Christ and the Bible, not your fine view.

No . . . You are the one manipulating the words of Jesus. This was the last instruction of JC to Peter:

John 21: 15-17

15So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, [size=15pt]Feed my lambs.
[/size]
16He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, [size=20pt]Feed [/size]my sheep.

17He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, [size=25pt]Feed my sheep[/size].

what did peter do as soon as he received the holy Ghost? He ensured that the multitude of believers understood the great commandment that they all had to care and feed one another. Acts 4:32-35

And when Paul was being sent on his missionary journey . , . the apostles commanded him to ensure that the poor are always fed and taken care of.

what is this teaching that we are talking about? what EXACTLY are u teaching new believers?
Are u teaching them to cover their hair or to leave it open? wear trousers as females or wear skirts? pay tithes or not to pay? sow seeds or not to sow? worship on saturday or on sunday? subscribe to catholism or pentecostalism?

what EXACTLY are u bent on teaching new converts? which one of the above relates to the core teachings of JC?

noetic16:

what is this teaching that we are talking about? what EXACTLY are u teaching new believers?
Are u teaching them to cover their hair or to leave it open? wear trousers as females or wear skirts? pay tithes or not to pay? sow seeds or not to sow? worship on saturday or on sunday? subscribe to catholism or pentecostalism?

what EXACTLY are u bent on teaching new converts? which one of the above relates to the core teachings of JC?

[size=13pt]TITHES[/size] and [size=13pt]THAT YOU MUST NEVER QUESTION MOGs[/size] and [size=13pt]THAT THEY ARE GOD'S HIGH PRIESTS[/size] plus the classic [size=13pt]"TOUCH NOT MY ANOINTED WHICH MEANS PASTORS"[/size]

noetic16:


what then is the basis of their belief if they dont have a personal relationship with God?

Are you asking me?

its just like u claiming to once be a "Christian" at the age of 11. what did u know about Christianity at that age?

The level of ignorance disguised as sarcasm is laughable. bro, if u cannot get right the fundamental concepts of Christianity, then u are least qualified to form an opinion on Christianity.

I laugh in chinese. . . According to you an 11 year old cannot know anything about christianity and have a relationship with god. Yet I wont be suprised you are of the view that when such 11 year old dies in sin, hez judged and he goes to hell.

When will you people stop confusing yourselves?

Tudór:

I laugh in chinese. . . According to you an 11 year old cannot know anything about christianity and have a relationship with god. Yet I wont be suprised you are of the view that when such 11 year old dies in sin, hez judged and he goes to hell.

When will you people stop confusing yourselves?

I also laugh in korean

an 11 year old is NOT capable of making such a decision of salvation as he CANNOT understand the principal matters at stake. All the testimonies of people that saw hell, which I have ever read, none of them claimed to have seen little children in hell. They are ignorant and could not have made such a decision of matters pertaining to salvation at such age.

So oga tudor, why blame me when I dont believe ur story of converting at the age of 11. which kind brain u get, wey make u understand the principal elements of this discourse at that early age? abeg, honesty is ideal.

Tudór:

Are you asking me?
I laugh in chinese. . . According to you an 11 year old cannot know anything about christianity and have a relationship with god. Yet I wont be suprised you are of the view that when such 11 year old dies in sin, hez judged and he goes to hell.

When will you people stop confusing yourselves?

There are 2 issues u re taking as one. An 11yr doesnt have same reasoning mentality as a 20yr in terms understanding much about christianity.However an 11yr old is wise enough to differentiate right from wrong.If the 11 does wrong,same shall be purnished.

When do we get someone who knows how to laugh in mandarin?

Let me try and come in here.

It seems the purpose of this thread has been largely ignored - notwithstanding the appeal of the OP that we should try and focus on the primary objective.

However, in whatever small ways we can, let's try and share something helpful - whether for the new convert or for the maturing Christian: perhaps there's something we all might benefit and take home with us.

This is where I'd like to comment on the discourse between noetic16 and Image123. It seems that you're both saying the same thing as per 'feeding' God's people. The question is what such feeding should entail - and it seems more inclined to teaching and imparting the knowledge of God's ways to His people.

noetic16:

John 21: 15-17

15So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

'Feeding' is an interesting metaphor for imparting knowledge to people. Certainly, leaders should care for the welfare of believers; but the basic idea of 'feeding' God's people is to impart them with knowledge.

Peter (who was addressed in John 21 by the Lord Jesus Christ) had used the same metaphor when addressing the elders: "The elders which are among you I exhort, . . . Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, " (1 Pet. 5:1-2).

Of old, the prophet Jeremiah proclaims: "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding" (Jer. 3:15). It is clear that Acts 20:28 carries the same gist when Paul addresses the elders with these words: "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

Indeed, Paul uses the same metaphor in the sense of imparting spiritual knowledge to the Corinthian believers - "I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able" (1 Cor. 3:2).

It is not as if other types of care for believers are to be ignored. However, in terms of leadership among God's people, the metaphor of feeding carries the implication of imparting knowledge - teaching God's people His Word.

toba:

There are 2 issues u re taking as one. An 11yr doesnt have same reasoning mentality as a 20yr in terms understanding much about christianity.However an 11yr old is wise enough to differentiate right from wrong.If the 11 does wrong,same shall be purnished.

did you read what you posted above? Since when has right and wrong become the sole criteria to enter heaven that is even if we are supposed to agree an 11 y.o can diffrentiate the sometimes complex issues of right and wrong? I thought one has to be ''born again''?

Can an 11 year old be born again? Can an 11 year old be saved?

If an 11 yo isnt born again, will he go to hell?

noetic16:

I also laugh in korean

an 11 year old is NOT capable of making such a decision of salvation as he CANNOT understand the principal matters at stake. All the testimonies of people that saw hell, which I have ever read, none of them claimed to have seen little children in hell. They are ignorant and could not have made such a decision of matters pertaining to salvation at such age.

So oga tudor, why blame me when I dont believe your story of converting at the age of 11. which kind brain u get, wey make u understand the principal elements of this discourse at that early age? abeg, honesty is ideal.

all this na rubbish. If on the other hand I said I became born again at age 10, could heal the sick and bla bla. You will be raising your hands in praise. You will not be here claiming an 11 year old cannot be saved.

I laugh at ''people who went to hell'' quote. Yea, is it like doz who went and saw bimbo odukoya there and a month later say they didnt see her? Or doz who'll say hell was shaped like the human body another claim its like prison, or shaped like an egg. Abeg stop that rough play jo

viaro:

Let me try and come in here.

It seems the purpose of this thread has been largely ignored - notwithstanding the appeal of the OP that we should try and focus on the primary objective.

However, in whatever small ways we can, let's try and share something helpful - whether for the new convert or for the maturing Christian: perhaps there's something we all might benefit and take home with us.

This is where I'd like to comment on the discourse between noetic16 and Image123. It seems that you're both saying the same thing as per 'feeding' God's people. The question is what such feeding should entail - and it seems more inclined to teaching and imparting the knowledge of God's ways to His people.

'Feeding' is an interesting metaphor for imparting knowledge to people. Certainly, leaders should care for the welfare of believers; but the basic idea of 'feeding' God's people is to impart them with knowledge.

Peter (who was addressed in John 21 by the Lord Jesus Christ) had used the same metaphor when addressing the elders: "The elders which are among you I exhort, . . . Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, " (1 Pet. 5:1-2).

Of old, the prophet Jeremiah proclaims: "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding" (Jer. 3:15). It is clear that Acts 20:28 carries the same gist when Paul addresses the elders with these words: "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

Indeed, Paul uses the same metaphor in the sense of imparting spiritual knowledge to the Corinthian believers - "I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able" (1 Cor. 3:2).

It is not as if other types of care for believers are to be ignored. However, in terms of leadership among God's people, the metaphor of feeding carries the implication of imparting knowledge - teaching God's people His Word.

1. what knowledge are you talking about? is there any necessary knowledge outside of salvation? of what essence is doctrines to a believer? is the knowledge in question, pertinent to the eternal life of the believer?

2. The words of God are not an oratory tool for crafts men. They are words to made alive by the deeds of men. You cannot tell a hungry to "accept Jesus or be damned" . . .Nope, u feed him and cater for his needs, then tell him of the forthcoming kingdom. So also can u not tell a naked man to "accept Jesus or be damned" You clothe him, feed him, shelter him, meet his needs and then tell him of the forthcoming kingdom. The same goes for the imprisoned, hopeless, helpless and other members of the society.

3. ur contextual expression of teachers implies a bunch of theological orators who possibly do not live by the word. If you tell others not to tell lies, but do tell lies urself, what message are u passing across? Teaching in Christianity implies the practical application of the commandments of JC to influence the lives of others and bring them to the saving grace of JC?

4. After a man repents of his deeds, makes restitution for his sins, begins his walk with God, adopts a life of faith and holiness. . . .what knowledge does he need again?
The gap in understanding is the singular basis for the doctrinal inconsistencies found in several churches. where men who claim to be teachers in words only do not act as commanded but also apply personal opinions to God's commandments. An example is the case of the sabbath. . . .many churches worship on saturday, others on sunday.
What has the day of worship got to do with salvation?

5. When JC mentioned the word FEED. . . that was not a ,metaphor. The implication of this commandment is written all over the NT in the deeds of the apostles. Take time to study the book of Acts and also Paul's personal relationship with the phillipian church and the thesolonician church.

Tudór:

all this na rubbish. If on the other hand I said I became born again at age 10, could heal the sick and bla bla. You will be raising your hands in praise. You will not be here claiming an 11 year old cannot be saved.

I laugh at ''people who went to hell'' quote. Yea, is it like doz who went and saw bimbo odukoya there and a month later say they didnt see her? Or doz who'll say hell was shaped like the human body another claim its like prison, or shaped like an egg. Abeg stop that rough play jo

same old blah blah blah from tudor.

Personally, I believe that those who gave their lives to Jesus at such age were simply influenced by the surroundings and did not have an understanding of what they are doing. Salvation entails genuine repentance. . .what would an 11 year old be repenting from? does he know the meaning and implication of the original sin? has an 11 year old boy formed his habits yet?

All I said about hell was that I do NOT have any reason to believe or think that young persons who die at such a small age, without the ability to discern and make a choice on salvation, will end up in hell. God remains a merciful God.

I think both sides are TOTALLY RIGHT in this - you can "feed" with knowledge AND you can also, as noetic says, feed with "eba" and egusi soup, which IMO too would likely be more welcome today.

Where I think Noetic's concern (and mine too) is the quality of the supposed "teachers" out there. Viaro, would you be willing to name ONE "MOG" that you'd trust your child's life to in the manner Jesus left His flock to Peter? If NO, then wouldn't you agree with Noetic that the Holy Spirit would be a better teacher? Way I see it, a call to put "children" under what is "mostly" available today would be like Jesus handing His flock to the Pharisees.

I think thats why noetic is averse to the idea

^^^ well said bro.

I simply believe that the best knowledge anyone can impact is to live by the commandments of JC. That way the world would see that we indeed are the salt of the world.

Noetic
You're blinded by your prejudice. I'm not making any comparisons of Jesus to 'later day criminals'. The issue at hand, remember, is that new believers should not be taught by anyone but the Holy Spirit. I'm saying new believers should be taught the Word of God. God has given us teachers, it could be my unknown sunday school teacher, or cell fellowship teacher, or the unremarkable brother who followed me up. Seeing you have a grouse with big preachers, go to them and settle it, not to nairaland or to me. I didn't buy anything from you, did I? And you're way wrong to say a particular human being cannot be born again. Thank God the book of life is not in your personal library.

noetic16:

same old blah blah blah from tudor.

Personally, I believe that those who gave their lives to Jesus at such age were simply influenced by the surroundings and did not have an understanding of what they are doing. Salvation entails genuine repentance. . .what would an 11 year old be repenting from? does he know the meaning and implication of the original sin? has an 11 year old boy formed his habits yet?

All I said about hell was that I do NOT have any reason to believe or think that young persons who die at such a small age, without the ability to discern and make a choice on salvation, will end up in hell. God remains a merciful God.

All this na your personal opinion and like I said before it counts for shiit.

What is rocket science about understanding the myth of original sin? Go to primary schools today and ask students of CRK. They are taught god created adam and eve, told them not to eat fruit, serpent came and decieved them, they ate, god banished them and cursed them. And jesus died to deliver them from their sins. Ask jesus into their lives and bla bla. They are told satan is the ultimate enemy and father of sins and when they sin they go to hell.

Kids are taught right and wrong, taught god is watching them and it isnt out of this world to see a 10 year old asking for forgiveness when he lies.

So for you to come here and be yarning ''beliefs'' is nonsense.

^^^ yawns loud at tudor

nuclearboy:

I think both sides are TOTALLY RIGHT in this - you can "feed" with knowledge AND you can also, as noetic says, feed with "eba" and egusi soup, which IMO too would likely be more welcome today.

Thank you. I'm sure a second look at my comments following noetic16's will show that I considered BOTH sides of this issue:

viaro:

'Feeding' is an interesting metaphor for imparting knowledge to people. Certainly, leaders should care for the welfare of believers; but the basic idea of 'feeding' God's people is to impart them with knowledge.

. . .

It is not as if other types of care for believers are to be ignored. However, in terms of leadership among God's people, the metaphor of feeding carries the implication of imparting knowledge - teaching God's people His Word.

I don't know if noetic16 saw the point before assuming other things that I wasn't concerned about. Nothing in my post suggests "an oratory tool for crafts men"; nothing there was pointing to "a bunch of theological orators who possibly do not live by the word". . . unless of course he suggests that those are the conclusions he draws from the verses I cited.

I don't think such reactions are necessary or helpful at all. When I read comments like: "of what essence is doctrines to a believer?", I feel very sorry for the one who asks such a question. In all things, I shall leave him to argue with God - the answers he gets may surprise him.

nuclearboy:

Where I think Noetic's concern (and mine too) is the quality of the supposed "teachers" out there. Viaro, would you be willing to name ONE "MOG" that you'd trust your child's life to in the manner Jesus left His flock to Peter?

Yes, there are very many names I could give you from across the world. The one thing is that I recognize that you guys often narrow issues down to your local environment, and that is why it becomes really difficult to discuss largely and broadly with people who think like that. Just because there are many abuses in Nigeria does not mean that there are no Christian leaders of integrity within Nigeria; nor does it mean that outside Nigeria the corruption is not felt at all. There are quite a few ministers who are truly commendable; but we are not asking for perfectionism here. However, if you have no one that will benefit you at all in the things of God, no worries - others are finding benefit in the ministry of other servants around the world, and we should be humble enough to recognize that.

nuclearboy:

If NO, then wouldn't you agree with Noetic that the Holy Spirit would be a better teacher?

Absolutely NOT! I can here and now tell you that anybody who dismisses "doctrine" has no value at all to present - and if that is the sort of crowd you want to hang around with, good luck! But don't try to place them at par with the Holy Spirit! What's wrong with you, commander?!?

nuclearboy:

Way I see it, a call to put "children" under what is "mostly" available today would be like Jesus handing His flock to the Pharisees.

Is that what you read in my posts? Is that what the verses cited in my posts are saying? Please show me how you derived this from what I have posted.

nuclearboy:

I think thats why noetic is averse to the idea

Noetic16 has his own small reasons blown way beyond his world, so I won't be concerned about him at all.

Viaro:

Never said you didn't consider both sides. However, I sincerely don't see how even my not specifically saying you saw both should be offensive to you! FYI, I was trying to calm you guys both down. Except you'd like I consider noetic moronic which he definitely isn't.

And I do not know why you are so touchy today, Viaro. You speak as though I live inside some 10 home isolated village and my world is limited to that - Even had I never travelled to or had experience of the western world in my plus 4 decades, the internet shows me the Creflo Dollars of this world. Generalising was wrong (I admit) but I was trying to pass a point across not make a law.

Biblical doctrine is disparate from false teachings. Whist all cannot have my type of initial "bad" experience, I needs must look at the average and fear for the "young". What anyway, is wrong in God dispensing knowledge Himself? At least we know that those the Scripture says He taught personally were "tops" in doctrine. Such would include Moses and Jesus! How many of such do we know to have erred doctrinally?

Again Viaro, and I'm sad saying this (to you of all people never expecting you wouldn't understand), God witness I'm not judging your posts but trying to temper down responses from multiple posters each of whom I have respect for. Being uninvolved emotionally, I try to decipher (based on my own thoughts) what each is trying to say. There's no fighting here, just misunderstood words as Inesqor earlier said.