Aizenosa:


And behold my people ask for a sign and the sign that I will give is that a virgin shall bear a child and that child shall rule with an iron rod.

And only one person fits that description except you say Jesus was born twice.

Are you in for these ?

....I wouldn't want to waste my time on someone who is not ready to go all the way out to understand the bible with me..

When you are ready,let me know.

solite3:
Yea I read it, there are a lot of inconsistencies in those interpretation.
the woman cannot be the church because it was clearly stated she gave birth to a man. the church didn't bring forth Christ rather it was Israel that did.
if you understand the prophecy of Daniel you will clearly know that Rev 12 us about israel.

Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


there are heavy proofs that the woman in Rev 12 is israel.

there is false gospel that says that the church has replaced israel, that is false the apostle told us that God had not cast off his people whom he first know.

(1)Since this vision is revealed in heaven, this woman is entirely of heaven. Neither Mary nor the nation of Israel have this position.
(2)After this woman bore the man-child, she fled into the wilderness. If we liken this woman to the nation of Israel, the man-child she brought forth to Christ, and the man-child being caught up to the ascension of Christ, this does not correspond with the actual facts. Although the nation of Israel was scattered, her going into the wilderness was not the result of Christ’s ascension. At the time Christ ascended, Israel had already been dispersed for some time and was no longer a nation. But here we see that the woman fled into the wilderness after the man-child was caught up unto God. Long before Christ ascended, the nation of Israel was gone. Therefore, it is impossible for this woman to be a reference to the nation of Israel. There is even less of a basis to refer to her as Mary.
(3)While this woman was in travail to bring forth the man-child, she encountered a dragon. This dragon had seven heads and ten horns. Chapter seventeen tells us that these seven heads are seven kings: five have fallen, one is still existing, and the other has not yet come. The ten horns are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, who will arise afterwards. We know that no such historical events occurred before Christ ascended. Therefore, this woman and the man-child must refer to things in the future. If we say that this woman refers either to the nation of Israel or to Mary and that the man-child refers to the Lord Jesus, we are contradicting history.
(4)After the man-child was caught up unto God, there was war in heaven, and Satan was cast down to the earth. Then there was a proclamation in heaven: "Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night" (Rev. 12:10). We know that this has not yet been accomplished. Ephesians 6 tells us that the church on earth must still battle with the rulers, authorities, and spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies. Satan is still there. Since this portion of Scripture has not yet occurred, it is impossible for it to be a reference to the time of Jesus.
(5)When the dragon was cast down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man-child. Many people use this as a confirmation that the woman is Mary. After Mary gave birth to the Lord Jesus she did flee to Egypt; however, she did not do this at the Lord’s ascension. Verses 14 through 16 say, "And to the woman there were given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast water as a river out of his mouth after the woman that he might cause her to be carried away by its current. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth." Whether it is said that this woman is a reference to Mary or to the nation of Israel, we know from history that no such thing happened when Christ ascended to heaven. Therefore, this woman cannot be a reference to Mary or to the nation of Israel.

FrancisDeSales:


You appear to be firm on the point that Rev 12 has only one interpretation, and that interpretation has nothing to do with the Mother of God. That the Mother of God had no significant role in the salvation of the world other than giving birth to Christ after which all that was left for her was to see Christ suffer and die and that was it for the Mother of God. That only one interpretation of the Scriptures is consistent and that interpretation must be yours.

Is several interpretations of Scripture unheard of? In 1 Cor 10:4, St Paul told us "that rock was Christ" although the old Testament scripture being referred to was a story of the Israelites travelling through desert waste. In Eph 5:32, while speaking on the truth of marriage based on the story of Adam and Eve, St Paul commented: "This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church." So at the same time, the marriage of Adam and Eve is a blueprint for all human lawful marriages as well as the specific truth the spiritual union between Christ and the Church. Hence, a multiple interpretation of a single text is common place in Scripture.

Now, is there any cue that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the woman of Revelation 12 without prejudice to any additional symbolism of the chapter?
V1. First the woman was said to be decked with the glory of the celestial bodies. If ever any woman would be so arrayed, it would be she who is "blessed among women" (Lk 1:42) and she is none other than the Blessed Mary.
V2. The woman was with Child, and was in pain to be delivered. To understand this pain, it is important to remind ourselves that TWO brought about the Fall in the garden, Adam and Eve, before a TREE (Gen 3). To win the salvation of Man, Christ became the New Adam (1 Cor 15:22; Rom 5), hanging on a TREE (the cross, Gal 3:13). But where is the New Eve? Christ himself while hanging on the cross pointed her to us: "WOMAN behold your son" (Jn 19:26). The word "woman" is unusual from a loving Son to the most lovable mother but it ties with the promise of the New Eve: "I will put enmity between you and the WOMAN" (Gen 3:15). So that mother at the feet of the cross is the New Eve, who with the New Adam repaired the Fall before the cross, the New TREE of life. Did the old Eve play any role in the Fall of Man? Yes, she did, an indispensable role. To pay the devil in his own coin, tree for tree, man for man and woman for woman, the Blessed Virgin Mary had to play an indispensable role in the salvation of Man. Just as Christ the New Adam said "I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!" (Lk 12:50), so the Blessed Virgin was in travail to deliver in her role as the New Eve for the salvation of Man.
V3,4. The Dragon can be associated with Herod (Mt 2:16) who try to destory the Christ Child and all those who plotted to destroy the infant Church.
V5. The woman had a male Child who is clearly Christ our Lord, the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Tim 6:15). But we know that Mary is the Mother of Jesus, our Lord. Therefore, as have been pointed out earlier, if the Child is Christ, the woman and his mother is Mary.
V6. The woman, the New Eve, fled into the wilderness to escape the devil, as Christ, the New Adam, did (Mk 1.35) and advised his disciples to do (Mk 6:31).
V13. The devil persecute the woman. So many Christians would complain of Eve, but few call Mary blessed even when that is their responsibility (Lk 1:48) and when God commanded it (Pro 31:31). Instead, they call her "envelope" and "ordinary woman". We can tell who is behind the misnomer.
V14. The woman was given wings of a great eagle fly into the desert. We already know what she does in the desert of prayer. No wonder St Luke often says, "But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart." (Lk 2:19) Every event was for her a point of meditation day and night (Ps 1:2)
V15,16. The devil attempted to overwhelm the Blessed Mary with a flood of sorrows but God provided her natural support in the person of the beloved disciple (Jn 19:27) and all other disciple that is beloved.
V17. The devil makes war with the rest of the seed of this woman. Remember, when Christ handed St John to his mother in Jn19:16, St John was not mentioned, but only referred to as "the beloved disciple". But we know that there are many disciples that are beloved, all those who kept the faith of Christ (Rev 12:17).
V18. We know the devil is standing on sand. He will fail.

From above, one can see that Rev 12 indeed do refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary without excluding the other interpretation that refer to the Church.

Wow ! Amazing explanation of revelation 12 ! Isn't
Now,to the gullibles out there that don't study their bible,you gave an apt explanation.
Oh well,all I noticed was just " cut & fix" to make it sound great on the surface..but beneath,the very foundation, every true believer that knows the bible can see how hallow & shallow your points are !
All of them can see the twisting of the bible explanation by you or whoever wrote that article to fit into their doctrines/ dogma.
That's why it's my pleasure to engage you...



Yes,you are very right that the revelation 12 has only one true interpretation....other interpretation ( that of Mary precisely ) are just some sects being desperate to deceive gullible souls out there...

Only if you can study the bible deep & understand what the passage it actually talking about....

I don't take people that just pick up a quote from just a bible verse to butress their point on what a bible passage is talking about... Bible is not understood that way.

And again, I don't take people serious that are hellbend on introducing their doctrines or dogmas in their churches to fit into a bible description,which many cases, leads to misinterpreting the word & message in the bible...
And lastly,I don't need copy & paste work !

I only take people serious that can do a systematic study of God's word on thier own & making a thorough research on it,putting away all their church doctrines & dogmas in other to get the actual meaning of God's word..
Now,I want to ask you ;

ARE YOU INTERESTED IN THE SYSTEMATIC & EXPOSITORY STUDY OF GOD'S WORD ?

If you are,then let's start with Revelation 12...

I'M INTERESTED IN THE ACTUAL INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE & NOT WHAT YOUR POPE & CHURCH FATHERS TOLD YOU !
I WANT YOU TO HAVE A MIND OF YOU OWN !

Now,let's see how Mary relates to Revelation 12...

Starting from revelation 12 vs 1 & 2,how does Mary relate to those two Bible verses ?
One at a time...
Your view will be highly appreciated..

FrancisDeSales:


You appear to be firm on the point that Rev 12 has only one interpretation, and that interpretation has nothing to do with the Mother of God. That the Mother of God had no significant role in the salvation of the world other than giving birth to Christ after which all that was left for her was to see Christ suffer and die and that was it for the Mother of God. That only one interpretation of the Scriptures is consistent and that interpretation must be yours.

Is several interpretations of Scripture unheard of? In 1 Cor 10:4, St Paul told us "that rock was Christ" although the old Testament scripture being referred to was a story of the Israelites travelling through desert waste. In Eph 5:32, while speaking on the truth of marriage based on the story of Adam and Eve, St Paul commented: "This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church." So at the same time, the marriage of Adam and Eve is a blueprint for all human lawful marriages as well as the specific truth the spiritual union between Christ and the Church. Hence, a multiple interpretation of a single text is common place in Scripture.

Now, is there any cue that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the woman of Revelation 12 without prejudice to any additional symbolism of the chapter?
V1. First the woman was said to be decked with the glory of the celestial bodies. If ever any woman would be so arrayed, it would be she who is "blessed among women" (Lk 1:42) and she is none other than the Blessed Mary.
V2. The woman was with Child, and was in pain to be delivered. To understand this pain, it is important to remind ourselves that TWO brought about the Fall in the garden, Adam and Eve, before a TREE (Gen 3). To win the salvation of Man, Christ became the New Adam (1 Cor 15:22; Rom 5), hanging on a TREE (the cross, Gal 3:13). But where is the New Eve? Christ himself while hanging on the cross pointed her to us: "WOMAN behold your son" (Jn 19:26). The word "woman" is unusual from a loving Son to the most lovable mother but it ties with the promise of the New Eve: "I will put enmity between you and the WOMAN" (Gen 3:15). So that mother at the feet of the cross is the New Eve, who with the New Adam repaired the Fall before the cross, the New TREE of life. Did the old Eve play any role in the Fall of Man? Yes, she did, an indispensable role. To pay the devil in his own coin, tree for tree, man for man and woman for woman, the Blessed Virgin Mary had to play an indispensable role in the salvation of Man. Just as Christ the New Adam said "I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!" (Lk 12:50), so the Blessed Virgin was in travail to deliver in her role as the New Eve for the salvation of Man.
V3,4. The Dragon can be associated with Herod (Mt 2:16) who try to destory the Christ Child and all those who plotted to destroy the infant Church.
V5. The woman had a male Child who is clearly Christ our Lord, the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Tim 6:15). But we know that Mary is the Mother of Jesus, our Lord. Therefore, as have been pointed out earlier, if the Child is Christ, the woman and his mother is Mary.
V6. The woman, the New Eve, fled into the wilderness to escape the devil, as Christ, the New Adam, did (Mk 1.35) and advised his disciples to do (Mk 6:31).
V13. The devil persecute the woman. So many Christians would complain of Eve, but few call Mary blessed even when that is their responsibility (Lk 1:48) and when God commanded it (Pro 31:31). Instead, they call her "envelope" and "ordinary woman". We can tell who is behind the misnomer.
V14. The woman was given wings of a great eagle fly into the desert. We already know what she does in the desert of prayer. No wonder St Luke often says, "But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart." (Lk 2:19) Every event was for her a point of meditation day and night (Ps 1:2)
V15,16. The devil attempted to overwhelm the Blessed Mary with a flood of sorrows but God provided her natural support in the person of the beloved disciple (Jn 19:27) and all other disciple that is beloved.
V17. The devil makes war with the rest of the seed of this woman. Remember, when Christ handed St John to his mother in Jn19:16, St John was not mentioned, but only referred to as "the beloved disciple". But we know that there are many disciples that are beloved, all those who kept the faith of Christ (Rev 12:17).
V18. We know the devil is standing on sand. He will fail.

From above, one can see that Rev 12 indeed do refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary without excluding the other interpretation that refer to the Church.

You quoted Luke 1 verse 42 as your prove that the woman in revelation 12 verse 1 is certainly Mary because she was called blessed ,right ?
Therefore ,she should be the woman clothed with the sun..

Funny you...
Have you heard of the beatitudes ?
All true believers were classed "blessed " by Jesus himself .. Mathew 5;3-10.
Read it for yourself...

Have you read Luke chapter 11:27-28 before

" And it came to pass,as he spake these things,a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice & said unto him,BLESSED IS THE WOMB THAT BARE THEE,& THE PAPS WHICH THOU HAST SUCKED "

28-BUT HE REPLIED,YEA RATHER,BLESSED ARE THEY THAT HEAR THE WORD OF GOD,AND KEEP IT "

Here again as you can see,the children of God as always called blessed...

Go to Luke 8:20-21 ;
" And it was told him by certain which said ,Thy mother & thy brethren stand without,desiring to see thee.

21-AND HE ANSWERED & SAID UNTO THEM,MY MOTHER & MY BRETHEN ARE THESE WHICH HEAR THE WORD OF GOD,AND DO IT "

Here again,as you can see,Jesus mother & brethren are those that keeps to the word of God.

Not Mary that gave birth to him...
He never referred to her as "mother " anywhere in the bible...

Lets Go down to proverb chapter 31 verse 31 you quoted claiming that God command us to call Mary blessed, you lied !

Proverb 31 was talking about a virtuous woman !
A godly woman.ALL GODLY WOMEN WHO FEAR GOD & KEEPS HIS COMMANDMENTS..

A godly woman who keeps to her home duty & at the same time still keep to God's word...

Let's go back to that proverb chapter 31 you quoted,BUT these time,let start our reading from verse 10 where the message of the virtuous woman started from ..

"10-Who can find a virtuous woman ? For her prices is far above rubies .

11-The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her,so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12-She will do him good & not evil all the days of her life ..."
Go down to verse 28;

28- HER CHILDREN ARISE UP,& CALL HER BLESSED,HER HUSBAND ALSO,& HE PRAISES HER .

go down to verse 30..
30-Favour is deceitful, & beauty is vain ;
BUT A WOMAN THAT FEARED THE LORD,SHE SHALL BE PRAISED..

31-Give her of the fruit of her hands;& let her works praise her in the gates"

As you can see above,the passage is talking about ALL godly women .
All single one of them that got husbands & children ,yet ,it doesn't stop them from fearing God.

ALL of them shall be called blessed,by both thier children & husband because they saw the light of God in them..
And Mary being a godly woman ,is also called "blessed,like every godly woman out there.

In fact,all the true children of God are called " blessed" !
So ,Mary is not the only woman called "blessed"...
So,you saying it's because Mary is called " blessed among women" makes her the woman in revelation 12 vs 1,then you are very wrong !!
As you can see from my writing above;

ALL TRUE BELIEVERS IN CHRIST ,ALL OF THEM , ARE CALLED " BLESSED" .IT WAS NOT PARTICULARLY RESERVED FOR MARY,THE MOTHER OF JESUS CHRIST.

IF SO,THEN ALL THE TRUE BELIEVERS SHOULD BE THE WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN & THE MOON UNDER HER FEET !

MARY IS A COMPONENT OF THE WOMAN,& NOT ACTUALLY THE WOMAN HERSELF IN REVELATION 12 VS 1...

The woman in revelation 12 is a collection of different persons,both male & female,but united with a common goal ;
To serve God & do His will !
Which we all refer to as the children of God.

And we all know the true children of God are, they are the Israelites from the old testament ,to the present day true believers of Christ Jesus !

With the above, Revelation chapter 12 verse 1 CANNOT be Mary herself !

I did not bother to go down to other verses in Revelation 12,because as I said earlier,we are going to take them one after the other....

Now I ask you again ;

HOW DOES MARY ALONE FITS INTO THE DESCRIPTION OF REVELATION 12 VS 1 ?

FrancisDeSales:


You appear to be firm on the point that Rev 12 has only one interpretation, and that interpretation has nothing to do with the Mother of God. That the Mother of God had no significant role in the salvation of the world other than giving birth to Christ after which all that was left for her was to see Christ suffer and die and that was it for the Mother of God. That only one interpretation of the Scriptures is consistent and that interpretation must be yours.

Is several interpretations of Scripture unheard of? In 1 Cor 10:4, St Paul told us "that rock was Christ" although the old Testament scripture being referred to was a story of the Israelites travelling through desert waste. In Eph 5:32, while speaking on the truth of marriage based on the story of Adam and Eve, St Paul commented: "This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church." So at the same time, the marriage of Adam and Eve is a blueprint for all human lawful marriages as well as the specific truth the spiritual union between Christ and the Church. Hence, a multiple interpretation of a single text is common place in Scripture.

Now, is there any cue that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the woman of Revelation 12 without prejudice to any additional symbolism of the chapter?
V1. First the woman was said to be decked with the glory of the celestial bodies. If ever any woman would be so arrayed, it would be she who is "blessed among women" (Lk 1:42) and she is none other than the Blessed Mary.
V2. The woman was with Child, and was in pain to be delivered. To understand this pain, it is important to remind ourselves that TWO brought about the Fall in the garden, Adam and Eve, before a TREE (Gen 3). To win the salvation of Man, Christ became the New Adam (1 Cor 15:22; Rom 5), hanging on a TREE (the cross, Gal 3:13). But where is the New Eve? Christ himself while hanging on the cross pointed her to us: "WOMAN behold your son" (Jn 19:26). The word "woman" is unusual from a loving Son to the most lovable mother but it ties with the promise of the New Eve: "I will put enmity between you and the WOMAN" (Gen 3:15). So that mother at the feet of the cross is the New Eve, who with the New Adam repaired the Fall before the cross, the New TREE of life. Did the old Eve play any role in the Fall of Man? Yes, she did, an indispensable role. To pay the devil in his own coin, tree for tree, man for man and woman for woman, the Blessed Virgin Mary had to play an indispensable role in the salvation of Man. Just as Christ the New Adam said "I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!" (Lk 12:50), so the Blessed Virgin was in travail to deliver in her role as the New Eve for the salvation of Man.
V3,4. The Dragon can be associated with Herod (Mt 2:16) who try to destory the Christ Child and all those who plotted to destroy the infant Church.
V5. The woman had a male Child who is clearly Christ our Lord, the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Tim 6:15). But we know that Mary is the Mother of Jesus, our Lord. Therefore, as have been pointed out earlier, if the Child is Christ, the woman and his mother is Mary.
V6. The woman, the New Eve, fled into the wilderness to escape the devil, as Christ, the New Adam, did (Mk 1.35) and advised his disciples to do (Mk 6:31).
V13. The devil persecute the woman. So many Christians would complain of Eve, but few call Mary blessed even when that is their responsibility (Lk 1:48) and when God commanded it (Pro 31:31). Instead, they call her "envelope" and "ordinary woman". We can tell who is behind the misnomer.
V14. The woman was given wings of a great eagle fly into the desert. We already know what she does in the desert of prayer. No wonder St Luke often says, "But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart." (Lk 2:19) Every event was for her a point of meditation day and night (Ps 1:2)
V15,16. The devil attempted to overwhelm the Blessed Mary with a flood of sorrows but God provided her natural support in the person of the beloved disciple (Jn 19:27) and all other disciple that is beloved.
V17. The devil makes war with the rest of the seed of this woman. Remember, when Christ handed St John to his mother in Jn19:16, St John was not mentioned, but only referred to as "the beloved disciple". But we know that there are many disciples that are beloved, all those who kept the faith of Christ (Rev 12:17).
V18. We know the devil is standing on sand. He will fail.

From above, one can see that Rev 12 indeed do refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary without excluding the other interpretation that refer to the Church.

Beautiful

ichuka:

(1)Since this vision is revealed in heaven, this woman is entirely of heaven. Neither Mary nor the nation of Israel have this position.
(2)After this woman bore the man-child, she fled into the wilderness. If we liken this woman to the nation of Israel, the man-child she brought forth to Christ, and the man-child being caught up to the ascension of Christ, this does not correspond with the actual facts. Although the nation of Israel was scattered, her going into the wilderness was not the result of Christ’s ascension. At the time Christ ascended, Israel had already been dispersed for some time and was no longer a nation. But here we see that the woman fled into the wilderness after the man-child was caught up unto God. Long before Christ ascended, the nation of Israel was gone. Therefore, it is impossible for this woman to be a reference to the nation of Israel. There is even less of a basis to refer to her as Mary.

this does not make it impossible to fit israel's description.

(3)While this woman was in travail to bring forth the man-child, she encountered a dragon. This dragon had seven heads and ten horns. Chapter seventeen tells us that these seven heads are seven kings: five have fallen, one is still existing, and the other has not yet come. The ten horns are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, who will arise afterwards. We know that no such historical events occurred before Christ ascended. Therefore, this woman and the man-child must refer to things in the future. If we say that this woman refers either to the nation of Israel or to Mary and that the man-child refers to the Lord Jesus, we are contradicting history.

no it is not contradicting history read Daniel's prophecy about the beasts.

(4)After the man-child was caught up unto God, there was war in heaven, and Satan was cast down to the earth. Then there was a proclamation in heaven: "Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night" (Rev. 12:10). We know that this has not yet been accomplished. Ephesians 6 tells us that the church on earth must still battle with the rulers, authorities, and spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies. Satan is still there. Since this portion of Scripture has not yet occurred, it is impossible for it to be a reference to the time of Jesus.

the problem is that you are interpreting the prophecy in view to israel's past only.

(5)When the dragon was cast down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man-child. Many people use this as a confirmation that the woman is Mary. After Mary gave birth to the Lord Jesus she did flee to Egypt; however, she did not do this at the Lord’s ascension. Verses 14 through 16 say, "And to the woman there were given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast water as a river out of his mouth after the woman that he might cause her to be carried away by its current. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth." Whether it is said that this woman is a reference to Mary or to the nation of Israel, we know from history that no such thing happened when Christ ascended to heaven. Therefore, this woman cannot be a reference to Mary or to the nation of Israel.

the first major problem that this explanation has is that,
the woman brought forth the male child who is Christ. Now, you know that it wasn't the church that brought forth Christ.

second problem, was that the 1260 days in which she is to be fed in the wilderness, this has no meaning as far as the church is concern but with the prophecy concerning Israel we see the clear meaning.

Question: "What does Revelation chapter 12 mean?"
Answer: In Revelation chapter 12, John sees a vision of a woman "clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" (Revelation 12:1). Note the similarity between this description and the description that Joseph gave of his father Jacob (Israel) and his mother and their children (Genesis 37:9-11). The twelve stars refer to the twelve tribes of Israel. So the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel.
Additional evidence for this interpretation is that Revelation 12:2-5 speaks of the woman being with child and giving birth. While it is true that Mary gave birth to Jesus, it is also true that Jesus, the son of David from the tribe of Judah, came from Israel. In a sense, Israel gave birth—or brought forth—Christ Jesus. Verse 5 says that the woman’s child was "a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne." Clearly, this is describing Jesus. Jesus ascended to heaven (Acts 1:9-11) and will one day establish His kingdom on earth (Revelation 20:4-6), and He will rule it with perfect judgment (the “rod of iron”; see Psalm 2:7-9).
The woman’s flight into the wilderness for 1,260 days refers to the future time called the Great Tribulation. Twelve hundred, sixty days is 42 months (of 30 days each), which is the same as 3 1/2 years. Halfway through the Tribulation period, the Beast (the Antichrist) will set an image of himself up in the temple that will be built in Jerusalem. This is the abomination that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14. When the Beast does this, he breaks the peace pact he had made with Israel, and the nation has to flee for safety—possibly to Petra (also see Matthew 24; Daniel 9:27). This escape of the Jews is pictured as the woman fleeing into the wilderness.
Revelation 12:12-17 speaks of how the devil will make war against Israel, trying to destroy her (Satan knows his time is short, relatively speaking—see Revelation 20:1-3, 10). It also reveals that God will protect Israel in the wilderness. Revelation 12:14 says Israel will be protected from the devil for "a time, times, and half a time (“a time” = 1 year; “times” = 2 years; “half a time” = one-half year; in other words, 3 1/2 years).

FrancisDeSales:


You appear to be firm on the point that Rev 12 has only one interpretation, and that interpretation has nothing to do with the Mother of God. That the Mother of God had no significant role in the salvation of the world other than giving birth to Christ after which all that was left for her was to see Christ suffer and die and that was it for the Mother of God. That only one interpretation of the Scriptures is consistent and that interpretation must be yours.

Is several interpretations of Scripture unheard of? In 1 Cor 10:4, St Paul told us "that rock was Christ" although the old Testament scripture being referred to was a story of the Israelites travelling through desert waste. In Eph 5:32, while speaking on the truth of marriage based on the story of Adam and Eve, St Paul commented: "This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church." So at the same time, the marriage of Adam and Eve is a blueprint for all human lawful marriages as well as the specific truth the spiritual union between Christ and the Church. Hence, a multiple interpretation of a single text is common place in Scripture.

Now, is there any cue that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the woman of Revelation 12 without prejudice to any additional symbolism of the chapter?
V1. First the woman was said to be decked with the glory of the celestial bodies. If ever any woman would be so arrayed, it would be she who is "blessed among women" (Lk 1:42) and she is none other than the Blessed Mary.
V2. The woman was with Child, and was in pain to be delivered. To understand this pain, it is important to remind ourselves that TWO brought about the Fall in the garden, Adam and Eve, before a TREE (Gen 3). To win the salvation of Man, Christ became the New Adam (1 Cor 15:22; Rom 5), hanging on a TREE (the cross, Gal 3:13). But where is the New Eve? Christ himself while hanging on the cross pointed her to us: "WOMAN behold your son" (Jn 19:26). The word "woman" is unusual from a loving Son to the most lovable mother but it ties with the promise of the New Eve: "I will put enmity between you and the WOMAN" (Gen 3:15). So that mother at the feet of the cross is the New Eve, who with the New Adam repaired the Fall before the cross, the New TREE of life. Did the old Eve play any role in the Fall of Man? Yes, she did, an indispensable role. To pay the devil in his own coin, tree for tree, man for man and woman for woman, the Blessed Virgin Mary had to play an indispensable role in the salvation of Man. Just as Christ the New Adam said "I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!" (Lk 12:50), so the Blessed Virgin was in travail to deliver in her role as the New Eve for the salvation of Man.
V3,4. The Dragon can be associated with Herod (Mt 2:16) who try to destory the Christ Child and all those who plotted to destroy the infant Church.
V5. The woman had a male Child who is clearly Christ our Lord, the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Tim 6:15). But we know that Mary is the Mother of Jesus, our Lord. Therefore, as have been pointed out earlier, if the Child is Christ, the woman and his mother is Mary.
V6. The woman, the New Eve, fled into the wilderness to escape the devil, as Christ, the New Adam, did (Mk 1.35) and advised his disciples to do (Mk 6:31).
V13. The devil persecute the woman. So many Christians would complain of Eve, but few call Mary blessed even when that is their responsibility (Lk 1:48) and when God commanded it (Pro 31:31). Instead, they call her "envelope" and "ordinary woman". We can tell who is behind the misnomer.
V14. The woman was given wings of a great eagle fly into the desert. We already know what she does in the desert of prayer. No wonder St Luke often says, "But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart." (Lk 2:19) Every event was for her a point of meditation day and night (Ps 1:2)
V15,16. The devil attempted to overwhelm the Blessed Mary with a flood of sorrows but God provided her natural support in the person of the beloved disciple (Jn 19:27) and all other disciple that is beloved.
V17. The devil makes war with the rest of the seed of this woman. Remember, when Christ handed St John to his mother in Jn19:16, St John was not mentioned, but only referred to as "the beloved disciple". But we know that there are many disciples that are beloved, all those who kept the faith of Christ (Rev 12:17).
V18. We know the devil is standing on sand. He will fail.

From above, one can see that Rev 12 indeed do refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary without excluding the other interpretation that refer to the Church.

Mary does not fit into the woman in Rev 12 because of various reasons.
it is written that the woman was clothed with the sun and the moon under her and crowned with twelve stars. this does not relate with mary.
secondly, the 1260 days cannot apply to mary.
thirdly, her children that would be persecuted, who are they?

I love Mary but it is wrong to accord to Mary what she is not.

solite3:
this does not make it impossible to fit israel's description.
no it is not contradicting history read Daniel's prophecy about the beasts.

the problem is that you are interpreting the prophecy in view to israel's past only.
the first major problem that this explanation has is that,
the woman brought forth the male child who is Christ. Now, you know that it wasn't the church that brought forth Christ.

second problem, was that the 1260 days in which she is to be fed in the wilderness, this has no meaning as far as the church is concern but with the prophecy concerning Israel we see the clear meaning.

Bro Israel is even the church in type.
Just like most women in the church typifies the church.
The end view of God is the church and not Israel.

Glycolysis:

You quoted Luke 1 verse 42 as your prove that the woman in revelation 12 verse 1 is certainly Mary because she was called blessed ,right ?
Therefore ,she should be the woman clothed with the sun..

Funny you...

No; it is Mary because she is said to be the "blessed among women", I.e. she is the greatest of all women in blessing. Something like "the bravest among men" is not just one of the many brave men, but the greatest of the brave. "Blessed among women" is SUPERLATIVE not just POSITIVE. English language. Is it any wonder that the Holy Ghost was communicated to St Elizabeth following the mere salutation of the Blessed Mary (Lk 1:41)? Or is it not wonderful that Christ changed his timetable to fit the request of Mary (Jn 2:4). Which other woman in Scripture can boast of such prodigies? Levels dey even in heaven!

Glycolysis:


Have you heard of the beatitudes ?
All true believers were classed "blessed " by Jesus himself .. Mathew 5;3-10.
Read it for yourself...


Have you read Luke chapter 11:27-28 before

" And it came to pass,as he spake these things,a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice & said unto him,BLESSED IS THE WOMB THAT BARE THEE,& THE PAPS WHICH THOU HAST SUCKED "

28-BUT HE REPLIED,YEA RATHER,BLESSED ARE THEY THAT HEAR THE WORD OF GOD,AND KEEP IT "

Here again as you can see,the children of God as always called blessed...

Go to Luke 8:20-21 ;
" And it was told him by certain which said ,Thy mother & thy brethren stand without,desiring to see thee.

21-AND HE ANSWERED & SAID UNTO THEM,MY MOTHER & MY BRETHEN ARE THESE WHICH HEAR THE WORD OF GOD,AND DO IT "

Here again,as you can see,Jesus mother & brethren are those that keeps to the word of God.

Not Mary that gave birth to him...
He never referred to her as "mother " anywhere in the bible...
[b]

OK, are you trying to say that Christ did not respect his mother? Well, "honour your Father and mother" is the 4th divine commandment. We know Christ fulfilled all God's commandments (Mt 5:17; Jn 19:28-30) so if he did not call Mary mother, it is for an important reason: Mary is "WOMAN", she is the woman of Genesis (Gen 3:15), the woman of Calvary (Jn 19:26), and the woman of Revelation (Rev 12:1). It is a serious matter for the best of sons not to do so much as calling his own most loving mother, mother. We now know why: she alone is the WOMAN of Scripture.

In addition, remember that St Luke kept saying that Mary pondered the truth of God (Lk 2:19; 2:51), and Mary herself declared, "let it be done to me according to your word" (Lk 1:32). Hence, Mary is not just special because she is the Mother of Jesus according to St Elizabeth (Lk 1:43), she is additionally special because she kept the word of God faithfully. She has double blessedness, we can only have one.

Glycolysis:


Lets Go down to proverb chapter 31 verse 31 you quoted claiming that God command us to call Mary blessed, you lied !
[/b]
Proverb 31 was talking about a virtuous woman !
A godly woman.ALL GODLY WOMEN WHO FEAR GOD & KEEPS HIS COMMANDMENTS..

A godly woman who keeps to her home duty & at the same time still keep to God's word...

Let's go back to that proverb chapter 31 you quoted,BUT these time,let start our reading from verse 10 where the message of the virtuous woman started from ..

"10-Who can find a virtuous woman ? For her prices is far above rubies .

11-The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her,so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12-She will do him good & not evil all the days of her life ..."
Go down to verse 28;

28- HER CHILDREN ARISE UP,& CALL HER BLESSED,HER HUSBAND ALSO,& HE PRAISES HER .

go down to verse 30..
30-Favour is deceitful, & beauty is vain ;
BUT A WOMAN THAT FEARED THE LORD,SHE SHALL BE PRAISED..

31-Give her of the fruit of her hands;& let her works praise her in the gates"

As you can see above,the passage is talking about ALL godly women .
All single one of them that got husbands & children ,yet ,it doesn't stop them from fearing God.

ALL of them shall be called blessed,by both thier children & husband because they saw the light of God in them..
And Mary being a godly woman ,is also called "blessed,like every godly woman out there.

I have told you before that a text of Scripture can have more than one interpretation (e.g. Eph 5:22-32) so there is no need accusing me of lying.
While quoting Proverb 31, you skipped v29, "many daughters have done noble things but you surpass them all". So while this text does refer to all good women in it surface meaning, in it essence, it is referring to the "best of all good women", she who surpasses all others. Thanks be to God, St Elizabeth has already told us who the best of all women is (Lk 1:42), the Blessed Mary. Hence, we see that Pro 31:31 in asking us to give "her" of the fruit of her work, speaks specially and specifically of the Blessed Mary, and only generally of other good women.

Glycolysis:


In fact,all the true children of God are called " blessed" !
So ,Mary is not the only woman called "blessed"...
So,you saying it's because Mary is called " blessed among women" makes her the woman in revelation 12 vs 1,then you are very wrong !!
As you can see from my writing above;

ALL TRUE BELIEVERS IN CHRIST ,ALL OF THEM , ARE CALLED " BLESSED" .IT WAS NOT PARTICULARLY RESERVED FOR MARY,THE MOTHER OF JESUS CHRIST.

IF SO,THEN ALL THE TRUE BELIEVERS SHOULD BE THE WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN & THE MOON UNDER HER FEET !

MARY IS A COMPONENT OF THE WOMAN,& NOT ACTUALLY THE WOMAN HERSELF IN REVELATION 12 VS 1...

The woman in revelation 12 is a collection of different persons,both male & female,but united with a common goal ;
To serve God & do His will !
Which we all refer to as the children of God.

And we all know the true children of God are, they are the Israelites from the old testament ,to the present day true believers of Christ Jesus !

With the above, Revelation chapter 12 verse 1 CANNOT be Mary herself !

I did not bother to go down to other verses in Revelation 12,because as I said earlier,we are going to take them one after the other....

Now I ask you again ;

HOW DOES MARY ALONE FITS INTO THE DESCRIPTION OF REVELATION 12 VS 1 ?

I have already shown above that many women are blessed, but Mary is the most blessed. Mary alone fit Rev 12:1 because she is the most blessed and because she alone gave birth to a male Child who is the Ruler of the nations (Rev 12:5)

solite3:

Mary does not fit into the woman in Rev 12 because of various reasons.
it is written that the woman was clothed with the sun and the moon under her and crowned with twelve stars. this does not relate with mary.
secondly, the 1260 days cannot apply to mary.
thirdly, her children that would be persecuted, who are they?

I love Mary but it is wrong to accord to Mary what she is not.

I have stated before that being "clothed with the sun etc" was a symbolism of a great glory, we do not have any other greater symbol of the glory of a woman in Scripture. It is reasonable that such a great glory should belong to the greatest of women and St Elizabeth has told us that Mary is the most blessed among women (Lk 1:42). Hence, the glory of Rev 12:1 can only relate to Mary more than any other women.
The book of Revelation uses a great many symbols of time. Although I am not sure where you got your 1260 days, it appears you are referring to the "a time, and times and half a time" of Rev 12:14. Apocalyptic times have been given several interpretations but in relation to Mary, v14 tells us the woman fled to the wilderness to escape the devil. I have previously mentioned that that refers to Mary's attitude of deep and faithful prayer before the crisis of the many trials of her son. Only prayer can save such a gentle mother from the sorrows of the passions of her son. Mary was by herself in prayer for the period until Christ handed her to St John (Jn 19:26,27) for her to escape the flood of pain poured by the devil to overwhelm her.
Interestingly, Scripture told us in Jn 19:26,27 that Christ handed the "beloved disciple" to Mary. Who are the beloved disciples? Those "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev 12:17). These are the children of the woman who are being persecuted.

FrancisDeSales:



I have stated before that being "clothed with the sun etc" was a symbolism of a great glory, we do not have any other greater symbol of the glory of a woman in Scripture. It is reasonable that such a great glory should belong to the greatest of women and St Elizabeth has told us that Mary is the most blessed among women (Lk 1:42). Hence, the glory of Rev 12:1 can only relate to Mary more than any other women.

the symbols were very detail which cannot be interpreted as " great glory".

what does the 12 stars mean with respect to mary?
the moon, what does it mean?
and the sun?

why did you assume the woman is mary? especially as it contradicts majority of other verses?

The book of Revelation uses a great many symbols of time. Although I am not sure where you got your 1260 days, it appears you are referring to the "a time, and times and half a time" of Rev 12:14. Apocalyptic times have been given several interpretations but in relation to Mary, v14 tells us the woman fled to the wilderness to escape the devil.

@ the time she fled to the wilderness the child was no longer with her. was Jesus not with Mary when mary went to Egypt?

I have previously mentioned that that refers to Mary's attitude of deep and faithful prayer before the crisis of the many trials of her son. Only prayer can save such a gentle mother from the sorrows of the passions of her son. Mary was by herself in prayer for the period until Christ handed her to St John (Jn 19:26,27) for her to escape the flood of pain poured by the devil to overwhelm her
Interestingly, Scripture told us in Jn 19:26,27 that Christ handed the "beloved disciple" to Mary. Who are the beloved disciples? Those "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev 12:17). These are the children of the woman who are being persecuted.

surprisingly you dodged the question, now let me repeat it again

who are the children of the woman that the devil went to make war on?

did mary have other children?

solite3:


surprisingly you dodged the question, now let me repeat it again

who are the children of the woman that the devil went to make war on?

did mary have other children?

Read his last paragraph, that was the answer to your question

FrancisDeSales:




Interestingly, Scripture told us in Jn 19:26,27 that Christ handed the "beloved disciple" to Mary. Who are the beloved disciples? Those "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev 12:17). These are the children of the woman who are being persecuted.

ichuka:

Bro Israel is even the church in type.
Just like most women in the church typifies the church.
The end view of God is the church and not Israel.

I understand that the end view is not Israel but the church. also remember God has not forgotten his people, he will fulfill his promise which he made.

the bible always refers to the church is the wife of Christ not the mother of Christ because it was the church was made from Christ and will be united with Christ but child came from the woman.
so it cannot be the church neither is it mary but israel.

.

MosesAlex:


Read his last paragraph, that was the answer to your question

who were the children of Mary that were persecuted?

Bro
according to the prophecy the child had been taken from the woman before she fled to the wilderness.

was Christ taken from Mary when she went to egypt?

solite3:
who were the children of Mary that were persecuted?

The answer is in the last line of Rev 12. those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Just as in Gen 3:20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

The new Eve , Mary is the mother of all those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

John 19:26
When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son
All Jesus beloved disciples are her children.

solite3:

Bro
according to the prophecy the child had been taken from the woman before she fled to the wilderness.

was Christ taken from Mary when she went to egypt?

Does it have to be the really physical or what wilderness represents.

You seem to want everything to follow your own order. But it does not flow that way, look at the place (Rev 12:7) that says great war broke out in heaven. I hope you know the war started before man was made in the book of Genesis.

One common difference between our modern notion of Bible interpretation and the ancient one we see in the Bible itself, is the very modern idea that a passage has only one possible correct interpretation. In fact the New Testament has many examples of Jesus, and his apostles using methods of Scripture interpretation which acknowledge multiple layers of meaning. This involves firstly the literal meaning from the original context, but it is possible to see other spiritual meanings in the text. The earliest disciples of the apostles also consistently refer to the spiritual meaning of Scripture.

In Mathew’s Gospel Jesus replies to the crowd;

An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.
Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. (Matthew 12:39-40).

Jesus sees the literal events of Jonah as a sign or predictive prophecy about His own death. More striking is Jesus comments in the Gospel of John. Jesus tells the crowd;

No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man. And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. (John 3:13-15).

Although the events in Moses’ time have a meaning in and of themselves, they are also a ‘sign’ which points to the death that Jesus would suffer. When the Son of Man (Jesus) is lifted up, those who gaze upon him will receive eternal life (cf. Mark 15:39). Although in the context of John’s gospel Jesus is revealed as the manna or true bread from heaven (John 6:32; 6:51) which is rejected by some (John 6:66) because they deny the significance of Jesus words (compare 1 Corinthians 11:29-30).

MosesAlex:


The answer is in the last line of Rev 12. those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Just as in Gen 3:20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.
The new Eve , Mary is the mother of all those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

John 19:26
When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son
All Jesus beloved disciples are her children.

how is Mary the new eve? pls where in the bible is this taught. don't just make baseless assumption.
how does handling mary to John meant she is now the mother of all Jesus discioles?

Does it have to be the really physical or what wilderness represents.

where did I say such

You seem to want everything to follow your own order. But it does not flow that way, look at the place (Rev 12:7) that says great war broke out in heaven. I hope you know the war started before man was made in the book of Genesis.

the war as recorded in revelation is not just a reminiscent of what took place in the past but what will take place in the future, so in a way revelation 12 took place in order which brings us back to the question if the woman is mary, was Christ not with Mary when she was in Egypt.

solite3:
I understand that the end view is not Israel but the church. also remember God has not forgotten his people, he will fulfill his promise which he made.

the bible always refers to the church is the wife of Christ not the mother of Christ because it was the church was made from Christ and will be united with Christ but child came from the woman.
so it cannot be the church neither is it mary but israel.

Are you saying the man child is Christ?Nooo,
He can't be Christ in real figure,but the result/product of His bride/wife.
Revelation 12 speaks mainly on things to come(future).

FrancisDeSales:


No; it is Mary because she is said to be the "blessed among women", I.e. she is the greatest of all women in blessing. Something like "the bravest among men" is not just one of the many brave men, but the greatest of the brave. "Blessed among women" is SUPERLATIVE not just POSITIVE. English language. Is it any wonder that the Holy Ghost was communicated to St Elizabeth following the mere salutation of the Blessed Mary (Lk 1:41)? Or is it not wonderful that Christ changed his timetable to fit the request of Mary (Jn 2:4). Which other woman in Scripture can boast of such prodigies? Levels dey even in heaven!




OK, are you trying to say that Christ did not respect his mother? Well, "honour your Father and mother" is the 4th divine commandment. We know Christ fulfilled all God's commandments (Mt 5:17; Jn 19:28-30) so if he did not call Mary mother, it is for an important reason: Mary is "WOMAN", she is the woman of Genesis (Gen 3:15), the woman of Calvary (Jn 19:26), and the woman of Revelation (Rev 12:1). It is a serious matter for the best of sons not to do so much as calling his own most loving mother, mother. We now know why: she alone is the WOMAN of Scripture.

In addition, remember that St Luke kept saying that Mary pondered the truth of God (Lk 2:19; 2:51), and Mary herself declared, "let it be done to me according to your word" (Lk 1:32). Hence, Mary is not just special because she is the Mother of Jesus according to St Elizabeth (Lk 1:43), she is additionally special because she kept the word of God faithfully. She has double blessedness, we can only have one.




I have told you before that a text of Scripture can have more than one interpretation (e.g. Eph 5:22-32) so there is no need accusing me of lying.
While quoting Proverb 31, you skipped v29, "many daughters have done noble things but you surpass them all". So while this text does refer to all good women in it surface meaning, in it essence, it is referring to the "best of all good women", she who surpasses all others. Thanks be to God, St Elizabeth has already told us who the best of all women is (Lk 1:42), the Blessed Mary. Hence, we see that Pro 31:31 in asking us to give "her" of the fruit of her work, speaks specially and specifically of the Blessed Mary, and only generally of other good women.




I have already shown above that many women are blessed, but Mary is the most blessed. Mary alone fit Rev 12:1 because she is the most blessed and because she alone gave birth to a male Child who is the Ruler of the nations (Rev 12:5)

You got me rolling on the floor
Sorry to ask,did you do English language at all in the school you attended ?
OK,let me help you out,in case you did not !

WHAT IS SUPERLATIVE ;

The highest extent or degree of something..

(Grammer );
The form of an adjective that expresses which of the several items has the highest degree of the quality expressed BY THE ADJECTIVE .
In English,formed by appending "EST " ,to the end of the adjective ( for short adjective only) or putting "MOST" BEFORE IT ...

Examples ;
+Big,bigger ,biggest..
+Beautiful,MORE beautiful, MOST beautiful..

+Blessed,MORE blessed, MOST blessed .
And many more..
The passage in the bible verse reads ;
" blessed among women "
Which word is the adjective there ?
You answer is good as mine..
Is the "blessed" superlative ? Certainly no.

You see,your claims is very invalid to assume that the passage there is talking about the highest degree of blessedness..

You also made an instance using bravest,right ?
Have you figured out were your problem is for using "bravest" & "blessed" to mean superlative ?
The"EST" in the bravEST made it a superlative..
While the "blessed" is not a superlative..
If thought the passage read ;

"MOST blessed among women", then your superlative claims is right..
Or ,it thought it reads ;
" blessedEST among women" ,then your claims is valid..
"BravEST among women " should correspond to "MOST blessed among women"..because they have the same degree of quality ; superlatives !

And ," brave among women" is the same as "blessed among women" in degree of quality .
"Blessed among women " indicates the quality used to define a unit,NOT the degree of the quality of the unit...

I will advice you to go back on your primary school works on superlatives,it will do you a tremendous good ..

As I have stated above,Mary has no special blessing more than that of a true child of God...
Many true believers of God in both new & old testament changed the mind of God..

I guess you have forgotten Mathew 7:7 ;

"ASK & ,AND IT SHALL BE GIVEN UNTO YOU,SEEK,AND YE SHALL FIND ;KNOCK,AND IT SHALL BE OPENED UNTO YOU ;
Read further down to see what God can do for a true believer that would worship Him...
So Mary ,knew God promises for His children,& she rightfully took good advantage of it ..

So,Mary has the same blessing as every true child of God out there....
Take a great look at these bible passage below ;
Mathew 18:1-5;

1-At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT PASSAGE ?
If you don't ,try & do...
When you do,you will never make these baseless comment again ;

" She has double blessedness, we can only have one "..
Please I will need a bible reference / passage for the above statement you made that I just quoted..






Because Jesus Christ did not call Mary " mother" & used "woman" to call her mean He disregarded her

He knew that Mary was not His mother ,hence He never referred to her as such..
She was just a woman used by God to fulfil a promise,& a woman she remains.

Genesis 3:15 was talking about Mary ..wow ! We got a real work in our hand.
It's NOT about Mary...
Don't worry,we will deal with that as we proceed...

We will work on that when we are done with revalation 12.. I promise.

Let's go back to proverb 31 again ..
You claimed I did not quote 29 right ?
Yea,I did not quote it because it was still was fully explained in verse 30 as thus ;
"...but a woman that feareth the LORD,she shall be praised"

If we are even to go by catholic doctrines about Mary ,then proverbs 31:20-31 was NOT even talking about Mary !


Catholic faithfuls believed that Jesus was the only child on Mary ( talk about the dogma , eternal virgin )..
Now ,let me burst ur bubbles !

Go to the same proverbs 31 verse 28;
"HER CHILDREN ARISE UP,& CALLED HER BLESSED,HER HUSBAND ALSO,& HE PRAISED HER.."

Children ( two or more babies ), Mary ,as the catholic Church claims,gave birth to only Jesus,& Joseph didn't perform any
sexual intercourse with her,BUT as we can see in proverbs 31 verse 28,her children (more than one),also admire her fears & industry ..including her husband who is the father of the children ,praises & respect her for the fear she has for God & her industrious hands..

So,the Mary of the catholic church shouldn't be talked about in these bible passage..
But as well all know ,the passage is about women who fears the LORD...not Mary alone.
The virtuous woman !
Who can find them out there in our world today ?
Now, I ask you again ;
HOW DOES MARY RELATES TO REVELATION 12 VS 1 ?

solite3:
how is Mary the new eve? pls where in the bible is this taught. don't just make baseless assumption.
how does handling mary to John meant she is now the mother of all Jesus discioles?

where did I say such

the war as recorded in revelation is not just a reminiscent of what took place in the past but what will take place in the future, so in a way revelation 12 took place in order which brings us back to the question if the woman is mary, was Christ not with Mary when she was in Egypt.

The way catholics interpret Bible verses in shocking !
Very very shocking that you wonder if these people don't even understand that bible can be studied & understood ,without allowing any pope or church fathers do the interpretation for you..
Many souls have lost it under these denomination

Glycolysis:

You got me rolling on the floor
Sorry to ask,did you do English language at all in the school you attended ?
OK,let me help you out,in case you did not !

WHAT IS SUPERLATIVE ;

The highest extent or degree of something..

(Grammer );
The form of an adjective that expresses which of the several items has the highest degree of the quality expressed BY THE ADJECTIVE .
In English,formed by appending "EST " ,to the end of the adjective ( for short adjective only) or putting "MOST" BEFORE IT ...

Examples ;
+Big,bigger ,biggest..
+Beautiful,MORE beautiful, MOST beautiful..

+Blessed,MORE blessed, MOST blessed .
And many more..
The passage in the bible verse reads ;
" blessed among women "
Which word is the adjective there ?
You answer is good as mine..
Is the "blessed" superlative ? Certainly no.

You see,your claims is very invalid to assume that the passage there is talking about the highest degree of blessedness..

You also made an instance using bravest,right ?
Have you figured out were your problem is for using "bravest" & "blessed" to mean superlative ?
The"EST" in the bravEST made it a superlative..
While the "blessed" is not a superlative..
If thought the passage read ;

"MOST blessed among women", then your superlative claims is right..
Or ,it thought it reads ;
" blessedEST among women" ,then your claims is valid..
"BravEST among women " should correspond to "MOST blessed among women"..because they have the same degree of quality ; superlatives !

And ," brave among women" is the same as "blessed among women" in degree of quality .
"Blessed among women " indicates the quality used to define a unit,NOT the degree of the quality of the unit...

I will advice you to go back on your primary school works on superlatives,it will do you a tremendous good ..

As I have stated above,Mary has no special blessing more than that of a true child of God...
Many true believers of God in both new & old testament changed the mind of God..

I guess you have forgotten Mathew 7:7 ;

"ASK & ,AND IT SHALL BE GIVEN UNTO YOU,SEEK,AND YE SHALL FIND ;KNOCK,AND IT SHALL BE OPENED UNTO YOU ;
Read further down to see what God can do for a true believer that would worship Him...
So Mary ,knew God promises for His children,& she rightfully took good advantage of it ..

So,Mary has the same blessing as every true child of God out there....
Take a great look at these bible passage below ;
Mathew 18:1-5;

1-At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT PASSAGE ?
If you don't ,try & do...
When you do,you will never make these baseless comment again ;

" She has double blessedness, we can only have one "..
Please I will need a bible reference / passage for the above statement you made that I just quoted..






Because Jesus Christ did not call Mary " mother" & used "woman" to call her mean He disregarded her

He knew that Mary was not His mother ,hence He never referred to her as such..
She was just a woman used by God to fulfil a promise,& a woman she remains.

Genesis 3:15 was talking about Mary ..wow ! We got a real work in our hand.
It's NOT about Mary...
Don't worry,we will deal with that as we proceed...

We will work on that when we are done with revalation 12.. I promise.

Let's go back to proverb 31 again ..
You claimed I did not quote 29 right ?
Yea,I did not quote it because it was still was fully explained in verse 30 as thus ;
"...but a woman that feareth the LORD,she shall be praised"

If we are even to go by catholic doctrines about Mary ,then proverbs 31:20-31 was NOT even talking about Mary !


Catholic faithfuls believed that Jesus was the only child on Mary ( talk about the dogma , eternal virgin )..
Now ,let me burst ur bubbles !

Go to the same proverbs 31 verse 28;
"HER CHILDREN ARISE UP,& CALLED HER BLESSED,HER HUSBAND ALSO,& HE PRAISED HER.."

Children ( two or more babies ), Mary ,as the catholic Church claims,gave birth to only Jesus,& Joseph didn't perform any
sexual intercourse with her,BUT as we can see in proverbs 31 verse 28,her children (more than one),also admire her fears & industry ..including her husband who is the father of the children ,praises & respect her for the fear she has for God & her industrious hands..

So,the Mary of the catholic church shouldn't be talked about in these bible passage..
But as well all know ,the passage is about women who fears the LORD...not Mary alone.
The virtuous woman !
Who can find them out there in our world today ?
Now, I ask you again ;
HOW DOES MARY RELATES TO REVELATION 12 VS 1 ?

You assume that the superlative can only be expressed in English with the use of "est". The superlative indicates that in a category of more than two units, one has the most of a particular quality. "thou art blessed among women" could either mean "thou art the only blessed and no other woman is"; or it could mean " although some/many women are blessed, thou excel them all in blessedness". Scripture gives us examples of many women that are blessed so the former must be rejected in favour of the latter.

You went so far as to claim that "He knew that Mary was not His mother ,hence He never referred to her as such.."
I will leave you with this, "Near the cross of Jesus stood his MOTHER, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene." Jn 19:25

The Catholic and universal teaching of Christendom until the Protestant reformation of the 1500 was that the Blessed Mary is ever Virgin, a point that can be readily demonstrated biblically. The children of the Blessed Mary are Christ the head of the church, and all other faithful Christians, who make up the body. I have already shown how and would not repeat myself. I may only add that normally the same mother gives birth to the head and the other members of the same body. If Mary is the Mother of head of the church, she is also the mother of the body.

FrancisDeSales:


You assume that the superlative can only be expressed in English with the use of "est". The superlative indicates that in a category of more than two units, one has the most of a particular quality. "thou art blessed among women" could either mean "thou art the only blessed and no other woman is"; or it could mean " although some/many women are blessed, thou excel them all in blessedness". Scripture gives us examples of many women that are blessed so the former must be rejected in favour of the latter.

You went so far as to claim that "He knew that Mary was not His mother ,hence He never referred to her as such.."
I will leave you with this, "Near the cross of Jesus stood his MOTHER, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene." Jn 19:25

The Catholic and universal teaching of Christendom until the Protestant reformation of the 1500 was that the Blessed Mary is ever Virgin, a point that can be readily demonstrated biblically. The children of the Blessed Mary are Christ the head of the church, and all other faithful Christians, who make up the body. I have already shown how and would not repeat myself. I may only add that normally the same mother gives birth to the head and the other members of the same body. If Mary is the Mother of head of the church, she is also the mother of the body.

EVERYBODY COME & SEE HOW SOMEONE IS DISGRACING HIMSELF IN COMMON; POSITIVE,COMPARATIVE & SUPERLATIVES IN ENGLISH LANGUAGE O
Did the passage reads ;
thou art MORE blessed among the blessed " ..though not superlative,but it indicates higher in degree of quality.
Or did the passage reads ;
"Thou art MOST blessed among the women "

You comparison of two units c can't be deduced from that passage of the bible..
It reads ;
"Thou art blessed among women "..
It could be interpreted as simply meaning ;
You are[i] among those[/i] that are blessed in the multitudes of women ...

Sorry to say,you lack comprehension !
I never said superlative can be ONLY be described as "EST"..
I said superlative can be expressed using " EST" AND "MOST"...
So inthese English ;
" thou art blessed among women " the adjective there,"blessed "
is a superlative If you said yes,then I doubt if you went to a school that English is taught .
As I asked earlier,did you study English in any way from your primary to your tertiary school
I doubt you did !
If you did,you won't be embarrassing yourself here with your attitude of trying to justify how you were wrong to assume that sentence was a superlative...

The biggest problem with ignorant people is that they boost in their lack of knowledge..

Mr man,go & make research on superlatives using google & stop disgracing yourself in the internet !

Was that Jesus referring to Mary as His "mother " Himself
Go to the book of Mathew chapter 1 ,& read about the genealogy of Jesus Christ,Abraham was referred as Jesus Christ great grand father,but actually, is Abraham the great grand father of Jesus Christ

I repeat,Jesus NEVER referred to Mary as His "mother" anywhere in the Bible ...
because Mary was actually not his mother,Mary is simply a woman that found favour in God & was used as a vessel ,the same way many have being used as a vessel for God purposes...

Mary has no bigger blessing than any true child out God out there in our world ..

In your previous comment,you claimed Mary has two blessedness, & we can only have one,I requested for the bible reference on that in my previous respond,I was expecting the bible reference in these respond of yours, lo & behold,I couldn't find any..
Sir,I still need that bible verse on that !

I only study the Bible to understand it,I don't have anything to do with how a church doctrine or church fathers,pope or pastors interprets the bible..

I do a deep research on Bible verses myself,compare many interpretations of that verse & by God grace,I have being able to see the TRUE interpretation of God's word.

Mary,mother of the church again
The only mother of the church ever recognised in the Bible is Jesus Christ !
Jesus Christ is the only author & finisher of our faith !

I hope you know what I mean by church ?
It simply means the gathering of the true believers in Christ ..
Jesus is the head of the church ,the mother of the church ( that's ,He concieved the church ) & every true believers out there is the member of the church ( Christ ),which Mary is.
Mary is a member of the church ,which every true believer is...

Pls,also bring up bible references that talks about Mary being the mother of the church of Christ.
YOU MUST SHOW ME THE BIBLE REFERNCES !

Your problem is these;

You're trying to relate the nature of Mary to the spiritual nature of God & His kingdom !
You will end up running into brick walls...

NOW,I ASK YOU AGAIN FOR THE UMPTEEN TIME ;
HOW DOES MARY RELATE TO REVELATION 12 VS 1..


But if you still don't have an answer to how mary relate to revelation verse 1,we will move down to verse 2..

Clap for yourself. You are very civil.

Glycolysis:

EVERYBODY COME & SEE HOW SOMEONE IS DISGRACING HIMSELF IN COMMON; POSITIVE,COMPARATIVE & SUPERLATIVES IN ENGLISH LANGUAGE O

Glycolysis:
[b]
Sorry to say,you lack comprehension !

Glycolysis:
[b]
As I asked earlier,did you study English in any way from your primary to your tertiary school
I doubt you did !

Glycolysis:
[b]
The biggest problem with ignorant people is that they boost in their lack of knowledge..

MosesAlex:
Clap for yourself. You are very civil.

I'm suspecting that monicker should be yours ..
How can a grown up adult claim that ;
"Thou art blessed among women " is a superlative
Even a child of 10 years old won't make such a terrible mistake..
He is ignorant on the issue of positive,comparative & superlative in English language..
I never used any fowl language in our debate,you're just being emotional..

I asked you a question earlier on,you did not answer me,but you're quick to jump into these !
Stay on your lane & watch as a spectator you are...
Thank you....

Glycolysis:

The way catholics interpret Bible verses in shocking !
Very very shocking that you wonder if these people don't even understand that bible can be studied & understood ,without allowing any pope or church fathers do the interpretation for you..
Many souls have lost it under these denomination

so sad, not only the catholics but other cults do too eg Jws

solite3:

Mary does not fit into the woman in Rev 12 because of various reasons.
it is written that the woman was clothed with the sun and the moon under her and crowned with twelve stars. this does not relate with mary.
secondly, the 1260 days cannot apply to mary.
thirdly, her children that would be persecuted, who are they?

I love Mary but it is wrong to accord to Mary what she is not.

Has anyone ever considered that the period of 3 and 1/2 years may be a symbolism for a period of respite. So it is not a measure of how long in days and years.

3 1/2 may also refer to years not as a measure or time, but as a cycle. A year being one cycle. So 3 and one half years being 3 cycles and half a cycle. And this may be used to represent a state of repose or rest.



Also has anyone had any thought as to what may have happened to Mary after Jesus died. Maybe she did have to flee somewhere. There is no more mention of her in the bible after Jesus' death. Was she in danger? Did she have to flee into a wilderness? Perhaps she fled to Spain....

solite3:
Question: "What does Revelation chapter 12 mean?"
Answer: In Revelation chapter 12, John sees a vision of a woman "clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" (Revelation 12:1). Note the similarity between this description and the description that Joseph gave of his father Jacob (Israel) and his mother and their children (Genesis 37:9-11). The twelve stars refer to the twelve tribes of Israel. So the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel.
Additional evidence for this interpretation is that Revelation 12:2-5 speaks of the woman being with child and giving birth. While it is true that Mary gave birth to Jesus, it is also true that Jesus, the son of David from the tribe of Judah, came from Israel. In a sense, Israel gave birth—or brought forth—Christ Jesus. Verse 5 says that the woman’s child was "a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne." Clearly, this is describing Jesus. Jesus ascended to heaven (Acts 1:9-11) and will one day establish His kingdom on earth (Revelation 20:4-6), and He will rule it with perfect judgment (the “rod of iron”; see Psalm 2:7-9).
The woman’s flight into the wilderness for 1,260 days refers to the future time called the Great Tribulation. Twelve hundred, sixty days is 42 months (of 30 days each), which is the same as 3 1/2 years. Halfway through the Tribulation period, the Beast (the Antichrist) will set an image of himself up in the temple that will be built in Jerusalem. This is the abomination that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14. When the Beast does this, he breaks the peace pact he had made with Israel, and the nation has to flee for safety—possibly to Petra (also see Matthew 24; Daniel 9:27). This escape of the Jews is pictured as the woman fleeing into the wilderness.
Revelation 12:12-17 speaks of how the devil will make war against Israel, trying to destroy her (Satan knows his time is short, relatively speaking—see Revelation 20:1-3, 10). It also reveals that God will protect Israel in the wilderness. Revelation 12:14 says Israel will be protected from the devil for "a time, times, and half a time (“a time” = 1 year; “times” = 2 years; “half a time” = one-half year; in other words, 3 1/2 years).

Rev 12:1. "And a great sign appeared in heaven: A
woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her
feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:

Such are the words of the Evangelist. He speaks
in the past, because at that time was shown to him a
vision of that which had already happened. He says:
"And a great sign appeared in heaven ; a woman clothed
with the sun and the moon under her feet and on her
head a crown of twelve stars."
The sun, which is mentioned as clothing the Woman, is the true Sun of Justice (Ps 84:11).
The moon was beneath her feet; for as the sun and the moon, divide night and day,
therefore the moon, being the symbol of the darkness of sin, is beneath her feet, and the sun, being the symbol of the light of grace, clothes her.

Lk 1:28 (Douay-Rheims Bible)
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: (most versions of the bible have changed the bolded words to highly favoured but the Aramaic bible in plain English retains the original translation)

The Woman is Mary.

The war that follows, tells us this vision happened before the creation of Man. Hence this Sign (vision) was shown to the Angels of what was to come. The Lucifer rebelled against this Sign and also conscripted a third of the angels (stars) with him.

MosesAlex:

Rev 12:1. "And a great sign appeared in heaven: A
woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her
feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:

what does the twelve stars, the sun and the moon mean with respect to mary.
with Israel this vision can be easily interpreted.

Such are the words of the Evangelist. He speaks
in the past, because at that time was shown to him a
vision of that which had already happened. He says:
"And a great sign appeared in heaven ; a woman clothed
with the sun and the moon under her feet and on her
head a crown of twelve stars."
The sun, which is mentioned as clothing the Woman, is the true Sun of Justice (Ps 84:11).
The moon was beneath her feet; for as the sun and the moon, divide night and day,
therefore the moon, being the symbol of the darkness of sin, is beneath her feet, and the sun, being the symbol of the light of grace, clothes her.

Because you saw woman there you assumed it was mary? lol
the moon is not a symbol for sin where did you get that?

Lk 1:28 (Douay-Rheims Bible)
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: (most versions of the bible have changed the bolded words to highly favoured but the Aramaic bible in plain English retains the original translation)

The Woman is Mary.

The war that follows, tells us this vision happened before the creation of Man. Hence this Sign (vision) was shown to the Angels of what was to come. The Lucifer rebelled against this Sign and also conscripted a third of the angels (stars) with him.

sorry to say that this is unbilical nonsense

solite3:
so sad, not only the cathrolics but other cults do too eg Jws

Exactly sir...
How the followers of these doctrines of these churches can't see the obvious,beats my imagination...
Mental slavery at it apogee.

"what does the twelve stars, the sun and the moon mean with respect to mary.
with Israel this vision can be easily interpreted."

Please, what do you mean by "Israel" and please do tell us how the stars, moon, and Sun refer to "Israel".

The significance of the celestial host has been given time and again, and you keep asking for it. Sure, you advance your argument by closing your ear to the points made by your opponents.

I will like to summarize thus with the hope and prayer that you will see with your own eye:

THE BEGINNING OF SCRIPTURE
"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Gen 3:15

Who is this WOMAN? And who is her SEED?
"The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ." Gal 3:16.
It is clear from the use of "seed" rather than "seeds" Gen 3:15 refer to Christ on the authority of St Paul. On the authority of the same Apostle, we have:
"when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a WOMAN, born under the law," Gal 4:4. The Son of God was born of Mary as we gather from Lk 1:35. So if the SEED of Gen 3:15 is Christ, as we have no ground to doubt, the WOMAN is Mary.

THE MIDDLE OF SCRIPTURE
"When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, "WOMAN, here is your son,"" Jn 19:26.
Is there any uncertainty as to the identity of the WOMAN. We know the WOMAN is Mary and there is no other person that goes with that description in relation to the Christ. Scripture does not lie, so when it says Mary is the Mother of Christ, "Jesus saw his mother", no one who holds the Scriptures as sacred should doubt the affirmation.


THE END OF SCRIPTURE
"And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." Rev 12:1
Who is this WOMAN?
Why should the end differ from the beginning and middle; why should the conclusion depart from the introduction and content? Who is this WOMAN?
If there is any uncertainty, Scriptures cleared it by stating "She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” Rev 12:5. We know that this Son is the Christ and we have no doubt that this WOMAN is Mary, who gave birth to Christ, the "king of kings and Lord of lords".

All through Scripture, we here time and again the great call, WOMAN! Only Mary has answered to that.

I will repeat myself, I do not doubt that Rev 12 have more than one consistent interpretation, but anyone who deny its relation to the mother of Jesus will have to rethink.