Either creation or evolution, this world started one day. By bible account, the world is about Eight Thousand Years old, while science says it is about Four and a half billion years old. Without sentiment which one is more likely to win if there is vote without sentiments attached.

Elmos;

There is a lot to be said about solid foundation.  There is an old saying: “If a man starts out in the wrong direction, he never gets to his destination, no matter how long or far he walks.  It so happens that you just started out with a statement that is biblically inaccurate.  Nowhere is it stated, implied, or inferred in the bible that the world is about 8,000 years old.  Man, vegetation, and other life forms may have been around for about 6,000 years, but the bible does not put a value as to the age of the earth, waters, world, universe, or firmament.

Considering that a thousand years of man is but a day to God, it’s not outside the perimeter of his ability to have created the earth billions of years before the creation of man. “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” [2Peter 3:8].     Therefore, Science may well be right in this respect.

the bible never say the world is eight thousand years old. the earth is millions of yeas field and the battle never disputed that but the bible rather contains it. A true receive will agree with the bible: it is only the creation of Adam that is eight years old. the Bible gives evidence that the earth is far older than that. the bible did not dispute the fossil evidence of the pre historic animals

I had the same problem as a student of geological sciences and an ardent believer in the Bible as the infallible word of God. It took me some years of asking from God to get a clearer revelation of the truth. If you are really sincere in knowing the truth,then check out this blog
http://judewatchman..com/2010/02/once-upon-snake-serpent-science-and.html
The Blog will answer a lot of questions that border on this thread, check it out!!!

i'll stick with the Bible ? >>> a whole lot of sentiments in my answer !!! >>> what i've read on evolution so far makes me think of 1 thing >>> bullsh*t

And you being the descendant of a guy made from clay and a woman created from that guy's rib who were both screwed over by a talking snake selling apples makes a lot more sense does it?

Bible is better- - - It holds the key to life and living a good and Godly lifestyle.

Science is all about human beings known professionally as scientists.

I prefer the bible anytime and day.

True science will agree with the bible, God created science. But any form of science that doesn't agree with the bible is false.

1 Timothy 6:20
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane[ and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

For me,its the bible anyday.

femmy2010:

For me,its the bible anyday.

Sure!!!

ajoguegbe:

I had the same problem as a student of geological sciences and an ardent believer in the Bible as the infallible word of God. It took me some years of asking from God to get a clearer revelation of the truth. If you are really sincere in knowing the truth,then check out this blog
http://judewatchman..com/2010/02/once-upon-snake-serpent-science-and.html
The Blog will answer a lot of questions that border on this thread, check it out!!!

Ajoguegbe;

I read your linked blog with keen interest.  I must say that the enormous amount of time and energy expended in your exploration can be said to be nothing but impressive.  It’s my hope that your painstaking efforts were for personal spiritual enrichment and edification.  Otherwise, I couldn’t, for the life of me, put my finger on why such undertaking.  If you did this for the benefit of others, to convince others that God is the architect of all creation, I’m not certain that your work was not for naught, after all.

You can’t be addressing an Atheist who, like the fool that he is, already doesn’t believe in the existence of God:   “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good” (Psalm 14:1).     He’s too far gone, and would require a near-death experience to turn around.  He cites Science every inch of the way, as the source of his unbelief.  But before hand, Science has already been identified as unreliable in the matters of God.   “O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen” (1Tim 6:20-21).

Do you seek to bring a quasi Christian to reason?   Any Christian who is not sure footed enough to the point of thinking that what he sees in the mirror is a result of an accident, a random explosion, is not worth your time.  To make a cup of tea takes some planning, and doing.  A cup of tea can’t just happen.  From planting the herb, caring, harvesting, preparing, and brewing, there has to be some thought and action.  If that much goes into making a cup of tea, how much do you consider went into the making of me?

We are left with just the one group, the true believer.  It definitely cannot be for his benefit, as it would be tantamount to the proverbial preaching to the choir.  A true believer already is assured that every word of God is pure.  He does not need convincing.

We don’t even have to go very far to find Science hang itself, as it breaks all its own rules, struggling to explain the unexplainable.  Living things cannot come forth from non-living things, is the very first law of science.  The first big band theory had the sun explode and fragments flew apart and cooled down at different distances form the bang, resulting in the many planets.

Even though the new generation big bang is said neither to be a band nor big, I enjoy seeing them squirm, as they try to explain the origin of life from a heretofore non-living mass.  Then watch them parade an array of terms such as, probably, must have, chances are, could have, possibly, etc.  Nothing definite, yet they call it fact.  Isn’t that a no-no in the world of Science?  Then, they turn around and require of us to prove that there is God.

The bible tells us that life on earth has been around for about 6,000 years. If you asked me, that is enough time for at least one lizard to swallow its legs and turn into a snake.  Don’t you think it's enough time for at least one captive ape to shed its furs and morph into a human?

Do we have any record of any man who had no biological parents, or was a monkey in the past, a few years earlier?

Before you have time to let out a snicker, they say a fossil find of human remains had been around for billions of years. To that I say, hogwash.  If Satan has the power to pick up the creator of everything in existence and transport him from the ground to the temple pinnacle, to the mountaintop, what is making any test produce any desired result, to him, as long as it is to his glory and would dispossess God?

So, my brother, I wouldn’t lose any sleep, trying to convince another human of the creative talent of God.  For Jesus to anchor some of teachings with, “He who hath an ear, let him hear,”   he knew that many would not hearken. 

Jesus commissioned his apostles to:   “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen” (Matt 28:19-20).     I don’t believe having to prove his existence, deity, or proprietorship was in that curriculum.

Besides, it’s not in God’s plan to have everybody saved during this dispensation.  He’s recruiting and training the Elect, with whom he will rule the earth, as Kings and priests, in the world tomorrow.  Any one who is not saved now, will have a second chance at the second judgment.

Jesus said,   “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:44).     So, come time for any one to believe, God would know what to do.

@PrinceEmeka
Thanks for that wonderful exposition. I believe that any person needing wisdom must have learnt from your discussion. I only need to comment on your statement that

Besides, it’s not in God’s plan to have everybody saved during this dispensation

Though you are correct but His heart desire is revealed in scriptures like
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Ezek 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
KJV
1Timothy 2:1, 3
I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone…, This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth

The reason we preach and persuade men is because of this. though we know that eventually all will not hear,but we play our own part if not their blood will be on our heads:
Ezek 3:18
When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
KJV
That was why you took all this time to write. I was personally blessed by it
Lets keep doing our best to bring souls:Atheists, Muslims etc to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ

And you being the descendant of a guy made from clay and a woman created from that guy's rib who were both screwed over by a talking snake selling apples makes a lot more sense does it?

I do not understand why people find it difficult to spot the similarities with our petty fables and also the inherent flaws in these stories.

You can’t be addressing an Atheist who, like the fool that he is, already doesn’t believe in the existence of God: “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good” (Psalm 14:1)

The problem here is, under what authority does the Bible you quoted, rely on? Can't be picking incomplete ancient texts and brandishing it as truth.
This your god has always being used as an excuse to kill reason. Yet he/she cannot answer all our questions on life.

And yet i may ask, How can a sane person believe in the story of creation of bible? ?.
Just check out a simple t.v manual then you will know that whoever is speaking in the book of genesis can NEVER be the creator nor can he even be a imitator of the universe.

IMO just bunch of some people with very low IQ without any simple clue of the universe.

@ PrinceEmek

If this is what you actually think, I think you really need to educate yourself on basic science. It's a very sad thing to find in this world that we live in someone this ignorant about basic scientific theories. I think you should first educate yourself. Wikipedia is also online and is free. I'm sure simply reading the introduction to the topics you're alluding to should give you some insight.

Try not to think in terms of right and wrong. It has more to do with which one is useful to which society and in which period or age.

The Bible (old testament)  had its usefulness, during the time of the Babylonian exile to the even the present day to the Jews, to create order, justice, maintain cultural and family ties and even help in solving some physical, psychological and social  problem of that time.

Likewise the new testament was able to deal with problems facing the Roman Empire from the time of Constantine to very recently in Europe.

Meanwhile Science came along to deal with different set of problems for different time and  society - the age of industrialization. The Bible can be used to solve the problem of Agriculturisation but will be useless when trying to use it for an industrial society. That is why the Bible is usually abandoned when a society transform from an agrarian one to an industrial one.

thehomer:

@ PrinceEmek

If this is what you actually think, I think you really need to educate yourself on basic science. It's a very sad thing to find in this world that we live in someone this ignorant about basic scientific theories. I think you should first educate yourself. Wikipedia is also online and is free. I'm sure simply reading the introduction to the topics you're alluding to should give you some insight.

I should believe you are the one that needs education. Probably, you studied one of the arts and thus mystified by scientific theories. I was opportuned to study the sciences, Geology in particular and can tell you that scientific theories change with discoveries. Never rely even on the Wikipedia articles, most of them were written by skeptics like you who do not understand spiritual truths. Our faith in God is not based on such science or wisdom
in 1 Corinthians 2:4 Paul says
"and my teaching and message were not delivered with skillful words of human wisdom, but with convincing proofs of the power of God's Spirit. Your faith then does not rest on human wisdom but in God's power. Yet I do proclaim a message of wisdom to those who are spiritually mature. But it is not the wisdom that belongs to this world-or to the powers that rule this world-powers that are loosing their power. The wisdom that I proclaim is God's hidden wisdom, None of the rulers of this world knew this wisdom"

It went further to say
"so then we do not speak the words taught by human wisdom, but in words taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual truths to those who have the Spirit. Whoever does not have the Spirit cannot understand spiritual things, they are nonsense to them, because their value can be judged only on spiritual basis" 1 Corinthian 2:13-14
Good News bible

Most likely then, you may not have the spiritual antenna to decode spiritual waves. thats why its nonsense to you. Please give your life to Christ and recieve His Spirit, it will help you a lot in judgement

wirinet:

Try not to think in terms of right and wrong. It has more to do with which one is useful to which society and in which period or age.

The Bible (old testament)  had its usefulness, during the time of the Babylonian exile to the even the present day to the Jews, to create order, justice, maintain cultural and family ties and even help in solving some physical, psychological and social  problem of that time.

Likewise the new testament was able to deal with problems facing the Roman Empire from the time of Constantine to very recently in Europe.

Meanwhile Science came along to deal with different set of problems for different time and  society - the age of industrialization. The Bible can be used to solve the problem of Agriculturisation but will be useless when trying to use it for an industrial society. That is why the Bible is usually abandoned when a society transform from an agrarian one to an industrial one.

No Sir, the Bible is relevant to every generation. even the Old Testament is filled with stories of how people can become blessed of God and abandon their source. It does not mean the word of God was no longer relevant, but that men abandoned it to seek their own  ways. another man comes,picks it up reads it and applies it and start seeing the results.
"The Lords people grew rich, but rebellious; they were fat and stuffed with food. They abandoned God their Creator and rejected their mighty Saviour" Deut 32:15 (GNB)
When Europe started departing from God they started loosing their status as the most powerful nation. they lost it to an emerging nation who built their country on Biblical values.(America)
Read this Blog, it will bless you
http://judewatchman..com/2009/09/tale-of-two-ships_29.html

ajoguegbe:

No Sir, the Bible is relevant to every generation. even the Old Testament is filled with stories of how people can become blessed of God and abandon their source. It does not mean the word of God was no longer relevant, but that men abandoned it to seek their own  ways. another man comes,picks it up reads it and applies it and start seeing the results.
"The Lords people grew rich, but rebellious; they were fat and stuffed with food. They abandoned God their Creator and rejected their mighty Saviour" Deut 32:15 (GNB)
When Europe started departing from God they started loosing their status as the most powerful nation. they lost it to an emerging nation who built their country on Biblical values.(America)
Read this Blog, it will bless you
http://judewatchman..com/2009/09/tale-of-two-ships_29.html

All this spiritual truth and that [i]this[/i]changes nothing. You are not the first religious person on earth, you are not the only one carrying religion on your head, your religion is not the first and only one on Earth. The fact that you carry yours with so much fervour, does not necessarily mean its real or true. Consider that.

What a spiritual truth? [i]truth[/i]perceived only by you?! Its that madness?

bible
[img]http://s07.flagcounter.com/count/DymW/bg=ffffff/txt=ffffff/border=ffffff/columns=1/maxflags=1/viewers=3/labels=0/[/img]

Elmos

  Which Is Right Bible Or Science
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Either creation or evolution, this world started one day. By bible account, the world is about Eight Thousand Years old, while science says it is about Four and a half billion years old. Without sentiment which one is more likely to win if there is vote without sentiments attached.

Hobes notes: In order to understand Genisis is a lengthy and time consuming task, and you must have an open mind or all the reasoning in the world will not help you understand. first of all lets understand that God alone tells the truth, So let every man be liers, The Bible is Gods Words for us. the record of Genesis starts with the creation of the heavens and the moon and earth, the earth is void because their is no man to till the groung and to dress it, niether is there the animals, the ones that Adam & Eve named (God made man male and femail made He them) they named them (animals) after this time of light (Holy Spirits) begain.

And darkness was upon the face of the earth, in the time before the seven days began, when the light came upon the earth! in the first week! The time of darkness lasted countless eons, the darkness was the spirits of the devil and his angels who were cast out of heaven in the time before time was counted, and into the creatures they possessed this was the zero time before the first day!

ajoguegbe:

No Sir, the Bible is relevant to every generation. even the Old Testament is filled with stories of how people can become blessed of God and abandon their source. It does not mean the word of God was no longer relevant, but that men abandoned it to seek their own  ways. another man comes,picks it up reads it and applies it and start seeing the results.
"The Lords people grew rich, but rebellious; they were fat and stuffed with food. They abandoned God their Creator and rejected their mighty Saviour" Deut 32:15 (GNB)
When Europe started departing from God they started loosing their status as the most powerful nation. they lost it to an emerging nation who built their country on Biblical values.(America)
Read this Blog, it will bless you
http://judewatchman..com/2009/09/tale-of-two-ships_29.html

How can you say that the Bible is relevant to every generation? The Bible was not relevant to precolonial Africa, the Bible was not relevant and is still not relevant to most nations of Asia, middle east and places without European influence. The Bible is not relevant to at least half the world's 6 billion population.

Europe did not loose it status as the world powerful nations because of the Bible, it was due to adopting new priorities of socialist economies that emphasize social welfare as against Military Armaments. Also at the time of the establishment of The US, Europe was still under the firm grip of the Bible (Christianity)  and heresy was still a capital offense.   Further more, The US has Abandoned Christianity as a state policy and adopted secular religious policies in Government, schools, etc.

As i said earlier, industrialization does not favour the Bible, because the Bible cannot help in tackling industrial related problems, of better and efficient means of production, it does not help in creating new machines and materials -  science does.

Also the form of government of the Bible - Monarchy,  cannot work in Industrial societies, it is best suited for Land and Landlord based agrarian societies. It is Democracy that is suited to an Industrial society. It helps regulate the relationship between the government and the govern, and between the workers and their employers. The needs of industrial societies is democratic power and not an all powerful autocratic God that do and undo.

ajoguegbe:

I should believe you are the one that needs education. Probably, you studied one of the arts and thus mystified by scientific theories.

No I'm not mystified by scientific theories and I hope you too are not mystified because, if you actually agree with what PrinceEmek was saying, then I'm afraid your claims of having studied anything scientific and understanding it is suspect.

ajoguegbe:

I was opportuned to study the sciences, Geology in particular and can tell you that scientific theories change with discoveries.

I'm starting to get suspicious of your claims of having studied geology. This is a quote from PrinceEmek

We don’t even have to go very far to find Science hang itself, as it breaks all its own rules, struggling to explain the unexplainable.  Living things cannot come forth from non-living things, is the very first law of science.  The first big band theory had the sun explode and fragments flew apart and cooled down at different distances form the bang, resulting in the many planets.

Even though the new generation big bang is said neither to be a band nor big, I enjoy seeing them squirm, as they try to explain the origin of life from a heretofore non-living mass.  Then watch them parade an array of terms such as, probably, must have, chances are, could have, possibly, etc.  Nothing definite, yet they call it fact.  Isn’t that a no-no in the world of Science?  Then, they turn around and require of us to prove that there is God.

The bible tells us that life on earth has been around for about 6,000 years. If you asked me, that is enough time for at least one lizard to swallow its legs and turn into a snake.  Don’t you think it's enough time for at least one captive ape to shed its furs and morph into a human?

Do you actually agree with the above quote?

ajoguegbe:

Never rely even on the Wikipedia articles, most of them were written by skeptics like you who do not understand spiritual truths.

Oh? I was recommending that as a starting point for general information. So what if the articles were written by skeptics, is the information wrong?

ajoguegbe:

Our faith in God is not based on such science or wisdom

This is a very telling statement.

ajoguegbe:

in 1 Corinthians 2:4 Paul says
"and my teaching and message were not delivered with skillful words of human wisdom, but with convincing proofs of the power of God's Spirit. Your faith then does not rest on human wisdom but in God's power. Yet I do proclaim a message of wisdom to those who are spiritually mature. But it is not the wisdom that belongs to this world-or to the powers that rule this world-powers that are loosing their power. The wisdom that I proclaim is God's hidden wisdom, None of the rulers of this world knew this wisdom"

It went further to say
"so then we do not speak the words taught by human wisdom, but in words taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual truths to those who have the Spirit. Whoever does not have the Spirit cannot understand spiritual things, they are nonsense to them, because their value can be judged only on spiritual basis" 1 Corinthian 2:13-14
Good News bible

Most likely then, you may not have the spiritual antenna to decode spiritual waves. thats why its nonsense to you. Please give your life to Christ and recieve His Spirit, it will help you a lot in judgement

What spiritual antenna and spiritual waves are you talking about? Do you have them? I think my ability to make judgements is sound how about yours?


"I am the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Thou shalt have no other monsters before Me. (Afterwards is OK; just use protection.) The only Monster who deserves capitalization is Me! Other monsters are false monsters, undeserving of capitalization."

Suggestions 1:1- The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I also hope that your "spiritual antenna" can detect that you should be careful of having any other monsters before the FSM.

PrinceEmek:


Considering that a thousand years of man is but a day to God, it’s not outside the perimeter of his ability to have created the earth billions of years before the creation of man. “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” [2Peter 3:8].     Therefore, Science may well be right in this respect.

The problem here is that this assertion involves a very dishonest reading of Genesis 1. "3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. "
No matter how you try to explain your way around this, one fact remains obvious - the writer of that passage clearly meant one day (24 hours). Genesis is quite clear - god created the world in 6 (calender) days and rested on the 7th.

Joagbaje:

True science will agree with the bible, God created science. But any form of science that doesn't agree with the bible is false.

1 Timothy 6:20
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane[ and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

I am sure that there is some logic here somewhere, the problem is that it is buried so deep that it cannot be found. So when it is established the earth is about 4.5 billion years old, science must be wrong. the fact that there is nothing in the bible that is verifiable elevates it above assertions that have been tested by many scientists over the years.
Other apologists try a more intelligent response.  You may wish to look at this site before posting - http://www.answersincreation.org/young_earth_creationist_argument_index.htm.
It is depressing that despite the progress made in the world, people still hang unto this superstitious nonsense peddled by people with stone age mentalities.
The bible is wrong on everything.

How can you say that the Bible is relevant to every generation? The Bible was not relevant to precolonial Africa, the Bible was not relevant and is still not relevant to most nations of Asia, middle east and places without European influence. The Bible is not relevant to at least half the world's 6 billion population.

Maybe you misunderstand the use of 'relevance'.By that I mean the principles of the Word of God(the Bible) can be applied to any society.The Europeans applied it to the precolonial world and we are better today for knowing Christ and dropping our barbaric lifestyle. Till tomoro the Word of God can be applied to any society.

Europe did not loose it status as the world powerful nations because of the Bible, it was due to adopting new priorities of socialist economies that emphasize social welfare as against Military Armaments. Also at the time of the establishment of The US, Europe was still under the firm grip of the Bible (Christianity) and heresy was still a capital offense.

When light disappears any other thing can cause a failure but we may not attribute the grand cause to the absence of light. The Bible was the light of Europe, when they started replacing it with science and reason, the light started fading.Better differentiate between Christianity (as a religion of Roman Catholics) and Christianity (as followers of Christ). The people that escaped to Form America or the New World were those looking for freedom to practice their faith. They were being persecuted by 'religious' christians

Further more, The US has Abandoned Christianity as a state policy and adopted secular religious policies in Government, schools, etc.

The Foundation of the United States is still based on Christianity and it was this foundation that made God bless them in the first place. Just like God protects the Jews because of His covenant with Abraham. Many of them dont know Him today but He cannot abandon His Covenant with Abraham. Read how the Jews have defeated the surrounding Arabs. its an amazing story.

As i said earlier, industrialization does not favour the Bible, because the Bible cannot help in tackling industrial related problems, of better and efficient means of production, it does not help in creating new machines and materials - science does.

I am afraid you dont know history. the industrial revolution followed closely the Reformation and John Calvin is a known figure. When the Industrial Revolution started to power its way onto the world stage, it was fueled by what is today known as the Protestant work ethic pioneered by John Calvin a pastor. Go and study the protestant work ethic very well. this is why some call John Calvin the father of the Industrial Revolution.
But let me point out here that Science and Bible are not opposites. they are meant to be complementary. The founding fathers of Science were devoted Christians who believed their work were expression of God. Let me paste this piece from the Encarta Encyclopaedia on the "Scientific Revolution"
Atheism, previously unknown in Christian Europe, gradually became an increasingly popular alternative to religion. Ironically, although all of the major figures in the scientific revolution were devoutly religious and saw their scientific work as a way of proving the existence of an omnipotent creator, the new mechanical philosophies were appropriated by atheists. Those who wished to deny the validity of the religious world-view could use the new philosophies to suggest that the world was capable of functioning in an entirely mechanistic way with no need for supernatural intervention or supervision,
Many of the central beliefs of the Enlightenment and new social sciences developed at that time owed their origins to the powerful stimulus of Newtonian science. But all too often it was a Newtonian science devoid of the God that Newton himself had believed in. Newton was especially devout and explicitly stated that his system was intended to demonstrate the existence of God, but he was powerless to prevent the irreligious interpretation of his science. From then on the secular scientific world-view became increasingly dominant.
Microsoft ® Encarta ® 2009. © 1993-2008 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Also the form of government of the Bible - Monarchy, cannot work in Industrial societies, it is best suited for Land and Landlord based agrarian societies. It is Democracy that is suited to an Industrial society. It helps regulate the relationship between the government and the govern, and between the workers and their employers. The needs of industrial societies is democratic power and not an all powerful autocratic God that do and undo.

You may not know how the Bible influenced the Government of Developed Nations. I consider that a topic for another day. But just know that the three arms of government the legislature, the judiciary and the executive were gotten from the Bible where God was seen as the three of them
Isa 33:22
For the LORD is our judge(Judiciary), the LORD is our lawgiver(legislature), the LORD is our king(Executive);
KJV
AMERICA'S FOUNDATION IS STILL CHRISTIAN, THEY MAY HAVE INVENTED SEVERAL INTERPRETATIONS TO WHAT THEY ARE AND WHAT THEY DO

ajoguegbe:

Maybe you misunderstand the use of 'relevance'.By that I mean the principles of the Word of God(the Bible) can be applied to any society.The Europeans applied it to the precolonial world and we are better today for knowing Christ and dropping our barbaric lifestyle. Till tomoro the Word of God can be applied to any society.

You did not elaborate on the principle of the word of God, which was absent in other ancient and contemporary societies until the bible was introduced.

First tell me what aspect of these principles that the Europeans applied to pre-colonial Africa, I hope Slavery was not among them, then tell me how our post colonial Africa is better off today as a result of those principles.

ajoguegbe:

When light disappears any other thing can cause a failure but we may not attribute the grand cause to the absence of light. The Bible was the light of Europe, when they started replacing it with science and reason, the light started fading.Better differentiate between Christianity (as a religion of Roman Catholics) and Christianity (as followers of Christ). The people that escaped to Form America or the New World were those looking for freedom to practice their faith. They were being persecuted by 'religious' christians
The Foundation of the United States is still based on Christianity and it was this foundation that made God bless them in the first place. Just like God protects the Jews because of His covenant with Abraham. Many of them dont know Him today but He cannot abandon His Covenant with Abraham. Read how the Jews have defeated the surrounding Arabs. its an amazing story.

Many people would disagree with you that the Bible was the light of Europe - Including the Europeans themselves. The Bible brought numerous wars, conflicts and instability. In fact Europe was more stable during modern times that when it was under biblical rule.

The Europeans did not colonize the new world (Africa, Australia, etc) because of religious persecution. Colonization was state policy to exploit other Nations of their resources. Please refer me to the history books your are reading.

The people that migrated to the new world - including South America, had strong Christian background, so it was natural to incorporate christianity into the new states.

ajoguegbe:

I am afraid you dont know history. the industrial revolution followed closely the Reformation and John Calvin is a known figure. When the Industrial Revolution started to power its way onto the world stage, it was fueled by what is today known as the Protestant work ethic pioneered by John Calvin a pastor. Go and study the protestant work ethic very well. this is why some call John Calvin the father of the Industrial Revolution.
But let me point out here that Science and Bible are not opposites. they are meant to be complementary. The founding fathers of Science were devoted Christians who believed their work were expression of God. Let me paste this piece from the Encarta Encyclopaedia on the "Scientific Revolution"
Atheism, previously unknown in Christian Europe, gradually became an increasingly popular alternative to religion. Ironically, although all of the major figures in the scientific revolution were devoutly religious and saw their scientific work as a way of proving the existence of an omnipotent creator, the new mechanical philosophies were appropriated by atheists. Those who wished to deny the validity of the religious world-view could use the new philosophies to suggest that the world was capable of functioning in an entirely mechanistic way with no need for supernatural intervention or supervision,
Many of the central beliefs of the Enlightenment and new social sciences developed at that time owed their origins to the powerful stimulus of Newtonian science. But all too often it was a Newtonian science devoid of the God that Newton himself had believed in. Newton was especially devout and explicitly stated that his system was intended to demonstrate the existence of God, but he was powerless to prevent the irreligious interpretation of his science. From then on the secular scientific world-view became increasingly dominant.
Microsoft ® Encarta ® 2009. © 1993-2008 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

You and your quoted source make so many wrong assumptions and speculations that i do not know where to start. But you really need to brush up on the Industrial revolution, where when, how and why it started. It has very little to do with protestants. Except you also want to tell me that the industrial revolution of Japan and China has protestant imprints also.

Nothing concerns Newtonian science of Mechanics, optics and calculus with social sciences, they developed in quite parallel lines.

ajoguegbe:

You may not know how the Bible influenced the Government of Developed Nations. I consider that a topic for another day. But just know that the three arms of government the legislature, the judiciary and the executive were gotten from the Bible where God was seen as the three of them
Isa 33:22
For the LORD is our judge(Judiciary), the LORD is our lawgiver(legislature), the LORD is our king(Executive);
KJV
AMERICA'S FOUNDATION IS STILL CHRISTIAN, THEY MAY HAVE INVENTED SEVERAL INTERPRETATIONS TO WHAT THEY ARE AND WHAT THEY DO

The Bible influenced the Government of all developed nations - What of Japan and china?

Did the Bible influence the Greeks to introduce Democracy to the world?

The Isa 33:22 you quoted above says nothing about Democracy, it is in fact anti democratic. All powers being reposed in the hands of one all powerful God or is it a King or the representation of God, to do and undo.

You did not elaborate on the principle of the word of God, which was absent in other ancient and contemporary societies until the bible was introduced. First tell me what aspect of these principles that the Europeans applied to pre-colonial Africa, I hope Slavery was not among them, then tell me how our post colonial Africa is better off today as a result of those principles.

What you dont understand is that the Europeans came in for three reasons: Gold, God and Glory. While the non-religious europeans were concerned about the economic gains, their godly Christian counterparts had another purpose:to spread the Gospel. The developments and improvements in the quality of life we see today in Africa cannot be removed from European influence. Its impact is seen all over Africa today. If not for Mary Slessor for instance, many twins would still have been standing the danger of death. that is to mentions a few

Many people would disagree with you that the Bible was the light of Europe - Including the Europeans themselves. The Bible brought numerous wars, conflicts and instability. In fact Europe was more stable during modern times that when it was under biblical rule.

Only the skeptics like yourself who dont want to hear the truth would disagree. The key players of the then Europe would not
As concerning the British Empire, historians have labeled the Victorian Era as “a long period of prosperity for the British people, as profits gained from the overseas British Empire, as well as from industrial improvements at home, allowed a large, educated middle class to develop.”(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_era) Queen Victoria, for whom this era is named, publicly identified the source of their prosperity when she said,
“that book [the Bible] accounts for the supremacy of England.”

The Europeans did not colonize the new world (Africa, Australia, etc) because of religious persecution. Colonization was state policy to exploit other Nations of their resources. Please refer me to the history books your are reading.

Historians refer to America as the 'New World'. go and study history plz. It was called the New World before they changed it to the United States and all that. I used the New World to refer to the America

You and your quoted source make so many wrong assumptions and speculations that i do not know where to start. But you really need to brush up on the Industrial revolution, where when, how and why it started. It has very little to do with protestants. Except you also want to tell me that the industrial revolution of Japan and China has protestant imprints also. Nothing concerns Newtonian science of Mechanics, optics and calculus with social sciences, they developed in quite parallel lines.

Sir I used a secular source that you can easily verify not a religious one. That makes me believe your mind is made up, and that badly because you have so many false assumptions that lack facts.

The Bible influenced the Government of all developed nations - What of Japan and china?
I didnt say 'all'.read it again.the right word should have been "most". Even Japan was influenced by a professor from the United States. No time for that now

Mr Ajoguebge,

You strike me as someone who just got a very large resource like a huge encyclopedia, then you read up a few lines of a few topics and  attempt to relate every subject to fit into your religious dogma no matter how unconnected and irrelevant.

ajoguegbe:

What you dont understand is that the Europeans came in for three reasons: Gold, God and Glory. While the non-religious europeans were concerned about the economic gains, their  godly Christian counterparts had another purpose:to spread the Gospel. The developments and improvements in the quality of life we see today in Africa cannot be removed from European influence. Its impact is seen all over Africa today. If not for Mary Slessor for instance, many twins would still have been standing the danger of death. that is to mentions a few

The first reason Europeans came to Africa and and the Americas, was for exploration and trade.  Merchants wanted to avoid passing through the torturous journey through the desert and the indian subcontinents to get to China, because China was the source of fine silk and spices. The southern part of Africa was discovered while trying to round the huge African continent. Also South America was discovered by mistake, when an explorer swung too far out of cape verde while trying to round the African continent. Later Columbus discovered North America while trying to get to China/India by sailing eastwards.

It was after establishing trade routes, that evangelization start by the established orthodox churches, which was tied to the state anyway, then militarization and colonization.

ajoguegbe:

Only the skeptics like yourself who dont want to hear the truth would disagree. The key players of the then Europe would not

Many Europeans and African scholars believed it was European colonization that lead to the current under development of Africa. Read the books by Ali Mazrui.

ajoguegbe:

As concerning the British Empire, historians have labeled the Victorian Era as “a long period of prosperity for the British people, as profits gained from the overseas British Empire, as well as from industrial improvements at home, allowed a large, educated middle class to develop.”(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_era) Queen Victoria, for whom this era is named, publicly identified the source of their prosperity when she said,
“that book [the Bible] accounts for the supremacy of England.”

The Above reference from Wikipedia did not credit the prosperity of the Victorian Era to the Bible, it says "The reign was a long period of prosperity for the British people, as[b] profits gained from the overseas British Empire[/b], as well as from industrial improvements at home, allowed an educated middle class to develop."  It says clearly that the prosperity was due to the exploitation of the colonies and the industrial revolution.

If you claim the prosperity was due to the Bible what of other prosperous nations before it, like Rome, Greece and Spain. Was it also due to the Bible that they prospered and fell? or are your implying that at the same period as the Victorian era, that the other nations were not carrying the Bible?

ajoguegbe:

Historians refer to America as the 'New World'. go and study history plz. It was called the New World before they changed it to the United States and all that. I used the New World to refer to the America

Please read assimilate and understand a subject before attempting to use the issue as a point of debate. The United State of America is not America, it is part of America, in fact it is only a part of North America. So US is not the new world but part of the New world.

Please refer to the following wikipedia article

The New World is one of the names used for the Western Hemisphere, specifically the Americas. The term originated in the late 15th century, when the Americas had been recently discovered by European explorers, expanding the geographical horizon of the European middle Ages which had thought of the world as consisting of Europe, Asia, and Africa (collectively, the Old World).

Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World

ajoguegbe:

Sir I used a secular source that you can easily verify not a religious one. That makes me believe your mind is made up, and that badly because you have so many false assumptions that lack facts.

Sir i indulge to to highlight any false assumption i might have and provide corrections to the assumptions.

ajoguegbe:

The Bible influenced the Government of all developed nations - What of Japan and china?
I didnt say 'all'.read it again.the right word should have been "most". Even Japan was influenced by a professor from the United States. No time for that now

I assume that the main determinant of a developed Nation is Manpower (education), Industrialization, peace and justice and not the Bible, Koran or any other religion. You might want to correct my "false assumptions" with facts and figures.

Hmmmm, There is a religious geologist on board! That means the argument will finally get scientific in terms of geology (Not biology this time) and let's see who will win!!!


BTW, why do people say Hitler was an atheist?

Elmos
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Either creation or evolution, this world started one day. By bible account, the world is about Eight Thousand Years old, while science says it is about Four and a half billion years old. Without sentiment which one is more likely to win if there is vote without sentiments attached.

Your wrong! Not by the Bibles account but your missunderstanding of the Bible,
Hobes notes: The Bible states that in the beginning Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven into the earth, this was before the seven days of creation they were on this planet for eons before Adam & Eve

Kay 17

you must first have an ear to hear before you can understand! or nothing will ever make any sense to you! In other words you must first be willing to listen to learn, in order to learn, and until then you will never know.

thehomer   

your handle fits you well thehomer (like Homer Simpson) you make about the same amount of logic as well

thehomer Wikipedia is also online and is free.

Wikipedia is online and free to brainwash all in the whole world who trust in it! it is owned and operated by biased natured people who sound much like yourself! are you an Arab Maoist? It contains only biased material that can be found elsewhere online!

wirinet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bible  will be useless when trying to use it for an industrial society. That is why the Bible is usually abandoned when a society transform from an agrarian one to an industrial one. 

Your Socialist anti-freedom brain washing measage is an insult to anyone who reeds it.
and soon will be forbidden throughout the entire world like it is in China today!

Zodiac61 (m)

You obviously do not understand the Bible this is why you cannot relay its measage

Matt. 13: 14-15.
  14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall ahear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Acts 28: 26-27.
  26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not aperceive: 
b Luke 8: 10.
  10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the amysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in bparables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not cunderstand.
2 Ne. 16: 9.
  9 And he said: Go and tell this people—Hear ye indeed, but they understood not; and see ye indeed, but they perceived not.

And ignorance abound in the earth as knowledge waxed thick!

It is kind of hard to believe what I am reading hear.Of all the things about Western civilization exploration of knowledge through the sciences has got to be one of the best thing about it. Here we are typing and utilizing invention created/understood by such endeavors(internet,computer, electricity) and yet people want to talk about trusting the bible more than science? I bet every single person in the is forum has put there lives in the hands of the individuals who use science at least 5 times today without even thinking about it. In fact the manufacture of the bibles that are in most peoples possession were probably direct result of scientific inquiry. Let's face it, as much as people will claim to trust the bible more we would rather have people pray for the success of medical treatment than pray that a illness will just go away. Or at least that is what most religious and political leaders prefer irrespective of what they tell their congregations.

@Billy Hobe

you must first have an ear to hear before you can understand! or nothing will ever make any sense to you! In other words you must first be willing to listen to learn, in order to learn, and until then you will never know.

You are one to talk. You have no idea of the policies and practices of Wikipedia but simply because they disagree with what you believe you will say this about them

Wikipedia is online and free to brainwash all in the whole world who trust in it! it is owned and operated by biased natured people who sound much like yourself! are you an Arab Maoist? It contains only biased material that can be found elsewhere online!

You are not an open minded individual and I bet anything anyone presents to you contrary to your position will be taken as the works of rabid atheist or Satan himself. Telling Kay17 to be open minded while you are being the epitome of close mindedness is hypocritical enough. But then you go on to childishly insult people without so much as a counter argument yourself.

You obviously do not understand the Bible this is why you cannot relay its measage

Why don't you just come out and say it. The only correct understanding of the bible is yours and nothing these people present can change your mind.

@ajoguegbe

I should believe you are the one that needs education. Probably, you studied one of the arts and thus mystified by scientific theories. I was opportuned to study the sciences, Geology in particular and can tell you that scientific theories change with discoveries. Never rely even on the Wikipedia articles, most of them were written by skeptics like you who do not understand spiritual truths. Our faith in God is not based on such science or wisdom

This is what we call progress. When theories are incomplete or inaccurate they need to be changed or corrected to conform with new discoveries. Saying the same thing all the time in the face overwhelming evidence to the contrary does not make your position anymore tenable. You want people to be open minded to your propositions when you yourself cannot even manage it with others. Instead of checking Wikipedia's sources, facts, and conclusion you just ignore it and chalk it all up to the work of rapid skeptics because it disagrees with your current beliefs. Look you do not want to believe in the conclusions of science, that is fine. Just stop pretending that it is anything more than your personal preference for biblical beliefs over anything and everything else. Your position is ultimately not about being logical or reasonable but faithful.

Ajoguegbe;
Please accept my sincerest apologies for my tardiness in responding to your post.  It was not designed to be a slight on you, but was necessitated by my occupation on another thread, where time was heavily taxed.  Again, my apologies are rendered.

ajoguegbe:
  @PrinceEmeka
Thanks for that wonderful exposition. I believe that any person needing wisdom must have learnt from your discussion.

Thank you, my brother, for your kind words.  I do my part in giving as freely as I have gotten.

I sense your concern about my statement that:

Besides, it’s not in God’s plan to have everybody saved during this dispensation.

  Not to worry, it’s nothing that cannot be addressed with a turn or two of the screwdriver.  I’ll get to it as soon as I dust off a few things.

ajoguegbe:
The reason we preach and persuade men is because of this. though we know that eventually all will not hear, but we play our own part if not their blood will be on our heads:

It is exactly as you have said.  But it’s easy to isolate those who seek knowledge of the truth from those who seek to mock God and dispossess him.  Concerning the former, you have my blessing and gratitude.  But for the later, I have but one advice: “And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet” (Matt 10:14).

ajoguegbe:
That was why you took all this time to write. I was personally blessed by it.  Lets keep doing our best to bring souls: Atheists, Muslims etc to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

  I’m flattered by your accolade.  However, I wish I could say I wrote to bring the word to all.  My sensing your belief in the word as pure and of God’s prompted my writing.  Praise be to the Father of our Lord that, as one of the few laborers in the vineyard of plenteous harvest, you are edified by my words.   To those who have no respect for he that was, is, and ever shall be, I present my testimony as a stumbling block at their feet.

Now, to my vexing comment we go.  Be prepared to do some heavy reading.  Indeed, I stand by the testimony that the Lord has no design for all to be saved at this dispensation.  I’m not saying that all not saved now will be forever lost.  No.  They too will have an opportunity to taste salvation.

It’s true, as you point out, that God does not wish for any to perish (2 Peter 3:9), and the other scriptures you present are right on the money; you’ll not get an argument from me there.  But most unfortunately, on account of our stiff-necks, God’s desire is a different matter from its accomplishment.  The Lord knows the future and acknowledges that not every one of his lambs will make it across the bridge.  Why else would he ignite the unquenchable fires of hell?

But whether some will perish is not the issue here.  I’m sure you already know that there will be casualties despite God’s best efforts.  My position is: Even those who make it are not destined to cross the finish line at the same time.  There is an array of scriptures to buttress my point.  So, grab your popcorn, kick back, and enjoy the show.

Now, the grand scheme of things presents two resurrections, one for the King of Kings, the second for the general public.  The general resurrection is further divided into two, the first and the second resurrections.  While the first resurrection is reserved for the Elect, who will rule with King Christ in his kingdom, the second resurrection is for the citizens or subjects of the kingdom.  Between the first and the second resurrections, exists a period of 1000 years when the Devil will be locked away in the bottomless pit. 

This means that while the Elect had the Devil to contend with and overcome, the mass population of the kingdom will not.  The rest of the unsaved, still alive, will have 1000 years of life without Satan.  Anyone saved during this period will be counted as the general citizenry of the Kingdom, while those still refusing to come to Christ will be condemned to eternal destruction.   As for the Saints or the Elect who wrestled with the Devil, as we have been, theirs is to rule with Christ as kings and priests. This is but a summary of the grand picture.  Don’t panic, there are scriptures to support what I have to say.

Before we get to the low down, consider this.  We know that the bible is the pure and true word of God, that God’s word is irreversible, and that the bible cannot contradict itself.  Armed with those constants, let’s venture further.

God has secrets sealed from the wise of this world, while he reveals them to whomsoever he chooses.   “At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes” (Matt 11:25).

“All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world” (Matt 13:34-35).

“But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given” (Matt 19:11).     Aren’t you beginning to seen the pattern of picking the few from the many?  I know I am.

I’m certain you do remember the famous “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day?” (John 6:44)     Obviously, the Father hasn’t sent every one of us.   

Even the Lord was pissed off when some unwanted Jews come to be baptized: “But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?” (Matt 3:7)

Jesus couldn’t be accused of discrimination.  After all, he broke the barrier so that salvation could be extended to the Gentiles.  But this selective tendency was also evident in the recruitment of his apostles and disciples: “And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.  And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.  And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead” (Matt 8:19-22).     As can be seen, he just rejected an applicant, while he wouldn’t let another go.  One should be raising one’s eyebrows by now; don’t you think so?

I guess the question now is:  If God wanted everyone to be saved now, why would he hide his secrets for some and reveal them to others?  Why would he force some people to come with him, and then send others who desire to follow him, packing?  It’s obvious that, as much as he desires that none should perish, salvation if open to just a few, at this time.  This few, who have been tried and tested by fire, as he was, are the Elect who will rule with him, as kings and priests, in his kingdom.  So, right now, until his coming, he is engaged with gathering and training the Elect.

THE ORDER OF OUR SALVATION

1. Our King Comes To Life
Let’s get down to the nitty-gritty, shall we?  I believe the order of resurrection may clear things up a bit.  You already know of the Primal resurrection of our High Priest so he could go to his father for his reward for his victory over the devil and to prepare his kingdom for the faithful:   “But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ, shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (1Cor 15:20-23).     After the resurrection of Christ, there will be an order or schedule of resurrection for the rest of us.  It won’t be a one-time event, as we shall see.

2. The 1st Resurrection
While the Lord prepares his government, it’s only prudent that he appoints those with whom he will administer his Kingdom, at his coming.  He began this exercise with the Twelve, and then the 120 disciples.  This group of anointed he called the Elect, but they called themselves the Saints.  He is still recruiting these executives as we speak.  To be in this group, one has to overcome, just as our Lord did.  This is the group that will meet the King in the clouds at the end of this system.  Rev 5:10 tells us, in no uncertain terms, the destiny of the Elect:   “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”

As I said before, the first resurrection is designed for these potential kings and priests of our King, hence the title, King of kings.  This is the resurrection that Peter wrote of:
“For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?” (1Peter 4:17)

The same resurrection was written of by Paul: “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed” (1Cor 15:51-52). 

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1Thes 4:16-17).

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” (Matt 24:29-31).

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:40).

All the foregoing prophecies point to the same resurrection.  At this time, the dead saints, and no body else, will rise first, followed by the instantaneous transformation of the living Saints.  All this will be heralded in by the last of the seven trumpets at the taking over of world government by our King.  These prophecies are authenticated by the prophecy of Rev 11:15,   “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”    

3. The Millennium; Satan’s Imprisonment
Our King has taken over world government, then what?  How about the god of this world that deceived many?  One of his first orders of duty is to deal with his archenemy, Satan, who, mind you, is still immortal, and alive and well.   Rev 20: [1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.  [2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, [3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.  

Notice that, even with Christ solidly planted on his Kingship; the Devil will not have been cast into the lake of fire yet.  He will only be temporarily incarcerated, to be released at the end of his thousand-year sentence.  You will have guessed that at his release, he’s not going away quietly.

The following verses will further identify Christ’s ruling council, the Elect:   [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.     Those who were martyred, persecuted, or otherwise stood up to Satan are seen to take their place as judges over humanity.

Observe that all we have in the kingdom at this point are too many chiefs, but no Indians.  Where is the citizenry?  Where are the commoners?  Whom are they going to reign over? [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.     Do you see that?  The rest of the dead who were unsaved remained dead for the duration of 1000years, not eternal, but a millennium.  And they will not have been cast into the lake of fire yet.  So, all hope is not lost, not yet.  Take special notice what the resurrection of the Saints is called.  The first resurrection, implying that another, a second, is to come.

Keep in mind that while the dead Saints will be resurrected into immortality, their living counterparts will be transformed into undefiled existence, as cited earlier on.  We also have seen that the unsaved dead will remain dead.  But, what about the still living unsaved individuals?  There’s no hell yet to quarter them in yet.  They will still live on.    Even though the 1st resurrection will have occurred, judgment is still to come.

During this period of Satan’s 1000-yr incarceration, the unsaved, still living, will have their chance to salvation.  Those who grab the salvation boat at his time will be counted in the book of life.  But they will not be in the executive council.  They will be neither priests nor kings, but the subjects, being that they did not overcome the Devil, as Christ and the Elect did.

At the end of Satan’s sentence, he will be freed, only to go on a rampage again, to deceive and destroy.  He will assemble a huge army to mount a military offensive, aimed at taking back his world.  This is the battle of Armageddon.  But this time, the King will be fed up with him and his entourage, and will ignite the lake with fire from above to incinerate them all.  This time, it won’t be prison term.  It would be a death sentence, by public execution.  Revelation continues: “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever” (Rev 20:7-10).

4. The 2nd Resurrection and the White Throne Judgment
Following the defeat and good riddance of Satan, there is still this little matter of determining the fate of those who neither repented nor converted, whether they be those who remained dead, or those who backslid and were deceived after the release of Satan.  Those unsaved who remained dead will now resurrect to join their living counterpart in judgment.   Revelation 20 details: [11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.  [13] And the sea gave up the dead, which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead, which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

As you can see, not much is made of the 2nd resurrection at the present because the recruitment of the Elect is ongoing.  This explains Christ’s selective method of the appointment of his Saints, his deliberate hiding of his truth from the wise of the world, and the confusion he meted out to his adversaries with parables.  While successful candidates will take part in the 1st resurrection, unsuccessful ones will have their chance during Satan’s imprisonment.  The 2nd resurrection is only into damnation.

Please observe this distinction.  The Saints will not face judgment.  They will only be rewarded according as their work shall be, while the condemned shall be judged according as their work shall be.  I told you it was going to be a long reading.  I hope you can glean some clarity from all this.