From here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/aug/09/religion-christianity

Is it possible to revile Christians whilst holding true to Jesus' teachings?

Earlier this month, Anne Rice announced that she was stopping being a Christian – but that she wouldn't give up Christ. Does this make sense? Can you have one without the other? Could you cling to the prophet and abandon Islam? More generally, should anyone be held responsible for the crimes of their co-believers? Should they hold themselves responsible?

It may be that the answer for Christians and for other religions is "yes", they can and should. Monotheistic religions aren't just matters of personal preference, but of collective effort. They command the believers to build a better society. So do many forms of atheism. So if the building turns out to be slaughterhouse, or a jail, perhaps it's right to leave the work crew. But must you then repudiate the ideals that you have seen betrayed?

Whatever it is that Anne Rice sees in the figure of Christ is the same thing as fuels her revulsion from her fellow Christians. So, how to deal with the problem?

Interesting!

The truth is that "chritians" and the church have long abandoned Christ (They claim to know God but by there actions deny him titus 1:16) most churches and christians do not teach or practise the core teachings of christ, they only use his name to project their various church establishments, their worship is a farce cos they deny christ by their actions so yes you can stop being a "christian" and still belong to christ. I all ready wrote a thread titled "The church has rejected christianity" you can search for it, I can't provide the link now cos I am browsing with a mobile device.

Welcome, Anne Rice, to the gathering of those that worship God in Spirit and in Truth

The church never had christ in the first place, so they never had a christ to have abandoned. They merely used the image of Jesus(which they created themselves) to control and deceive the masses from day one. Jesus' teachings were twisted, turned upside down from the word go. Jesus had never ever supported organized religion, which was why he was a rebel who went against the establishment, or so the legend goes.

KunleOshob:

The truth is that "chritians" and the church have long abandoned Christ (They claim to know God but by there actions deny him titus 1:16) most churches and christians do not teach or practise the core teachings of christ, they only use his name to project their various church establishments, their worship is a farce cos they deny christ by their actions so yes you can stop being a "christian" and still belong to christ. I all ready wrote a thread titled "The church has rejected christianity" you can search for it, I can't provide the link now cos I am browsing with a mobile device.

Is it possible to say "i am not a Nigerian but my ethnicity is Nigeria" of course it's impossible.

" Followers of Christ are called christians" therefore as we have illegal Nigerians so we have fake christians so move on from this idealogy and continue to do the will of JEHOVAH.

Anne Rice is walking away on the basis of perversion of terms. The church has mainly become the LovePeddler of Revelations, following the god of the world. Seeing as that LovePeddler is what has been renamed Christianity, leaving it is not tantamount to leaving Christ. Indeed, the true church are referred to as "Ecclesia" or the called-out ones and Jesus Himself said a time would come when true believers would worship in Spirit and in Truth. That presupposes there would also be worshipping in the "flesh and in error", does it not?

Anne Rice is then leaving fake organised worldly "churchism" which has been renamed to mean Christianity and saying, "Hey thats what I'm dropping NOT the teachings, mold and truth of Jesus". It is another matter whether she is sincere about it.

The difference between your allegory and what we have here is that yes, there are "illegals" in Nigeria but these are few relative to true Nigerians. In Christianity, it is  the "real" ones that are few and are being choked by the majority "fakes". Since true believers are not bothered about titles, adulation or terminologies, its like saying "take the name whist we hold the truth"

OK as the person who started this thread I think I should reveal my own hand and express where I stand.

I totally understand, appreciate and respect my brethren (& sistren) who find themselves no longer able to stomach organised church assemblies and prefer to look for alternatives. Unfortunately the church has been invaded, not merely infiltrated, by anti-Christs, charlatans and fraudsters; sadly, they are carrying along honest, well-meaning but misguided people as well.

Nevertheless, I believe it is possible to remain part of an organised assembly and yet true to Christ and sound christian doctrine. That is why I am still part of an organised church assembly. As a matter of fact I can worship in almost (stress almost) any church assembly where I believe there is at least one (just one) person who honestly and genuinely is putting his trust in the One and Only, the Wonderful Counsellor, the Prince of Peace, the Everlasting Father, the Mighty God, the risen, ascended glorified, the Glorious Lord Jesus Christ. Believe me, I will even worship in such an assembly of WoFers! I will probably never become a member or a regular though!

On one occasion, I was in the US on a Sunday; I went to the church assembly most local to my hotel. It turned out it was a service involving feet washing. I promptly joined in with gusto! I had my feet washed and washed other people's feet. Even today, I do not know/remember what 'denomination' they were. On another occasion here in the UK I went into a Baptist church which turned out to be a strict Baptist church that would not let other Baptists, let alone me, take part in their "Holy Communion". And after the service they expressed hope to see me again in their 'church'. Na so!

In the same token, I will continue to call myself a Christian. I will not let the anti-Christs, charlatans, fraudsters etc deprive me of that appellation by which the apostles (including Peter, James, John Paul etc), the great Church Fathers of gigantic intellect, and countless people throughout history have been known.

Yes 0! and for a while now.

KunleOshob:

The truth is that "chritians" and the church have long abandoned Christ (They claim to know God but by there actions deny him titus 1:16) most churches and christians do not teach or practise the core teachings of christ, they only use his name to project their various church establishments, their worship is a farce cos they deny christ by their actions so yes you can stop being a "christian" and still belong to christ. I all ready wrote a thread titled "The church has rejected christianity" you can search for it, I can't provide the link now cos I am browsing with a mobile device.

I differ slightly here. The "True Church" cannot and will not abandon Christ. "He will build His Church", emphasis on His. Lots of others are also building churches, and appropriating - some would say mis - Christ for their own ends. The Lord knows those who are His. The Lods Church will not be prevailed against. So in discussing Church, one should try and make the distinction between the "True Church" and all the others. He is coming back for a Church - Bride - without spot, blemish or wrinkle.

nuclearboy:

Welcome, Anne Rice, to the gathering of those that worship God in Spirit and in Truth

"Those" full ground. The Lord knows "those" who are his.

skyone:

Is it possible to say "i am not a Nigerian but my ethnicity is Nigeria" of course it's impossible.

Yes its possible. In my case its also true. I am British, but ehtnically, I am Nigerian. To be proper "Nigerian" is a nationality, not an ethnicity. Apologies, but your choice of analogy is rather poor, as is your use of terms. Apologies again "Essex boy"  !

skyone:

" Followers of Christ are called christians" therefore as we have illegal Nigerians so we have fake christians so move on from this idealogy and continue to do the will of JEHOVAH.

Nope, followers of Christ are called "Disciples". The Lord knows those who are his. As we have the "True Church", so we have "all the others". Grays abi? Chafford Hundred sef??

You're probably not a sportsman are you?

Enigma:

OK as the person who started this thread I think I should reveal my own hand and express where I stand.

I totally understand, appreciate and respect my brethren (& sistren) who find themselves no longer able to stomach organised church assemblies and prefer to look for alternatives. Unfortunately the church has been invaded, not merely infiltrated, by anti-Christs, charlatans and fraudsters; sadly, they are carrying along honest, well-meaning but misguided people as well.

Nevertheless, I believe it is possible to remain part of an organised assembly and yet true to Christ and sound christian doctrine. That is why I am still part of an organised church assembly. As a matter of fact I can worship in almost (stress almost) any church assembly where I believe there is at least one (just one) person who honestly and genuinely is putting his trust in the One and Only, the Wonderful Counsellor, the Prince of Peace, the Everlasting Father, the Mighty God, the risen, ascended glorified, the Glorious Lord Jesus Christ. Believe me, I will even worship in such an assembly of WoFers! I will probably never become a member or a regular though!

On one occasion, I was in the US on a Sunday; I went to the church assembly most local to my hotel. It turned out it was a service involving feet washing. I promptly joined in with gusto! I had my feet washed and washed other people's feet. Even today, I do not know/remember what 'denomination' they were. On another occasion here in the UK I went into a Baptist church which turned out to be a strict Baptist church that would not let other Baptists, let alone me, take part in their "Holy Communion". And after the service they expressed hope to see me again in their 'church'. Na so!

In the same token, I will continue to call myself a Christian. I will not let the anti-Christs, charlatans, fraudsters etc deprive me of that appellation by which the apostles (including Peter, James, John Paul etc), the great Church Fathers of gigantic intellect, and countless people throughout history have been known.

And you are free to do so. There are "those who are His" in false churches. They will be led, mostly out I believe. But as nuclearboy alludes too in the post previous to yours, how long do you remain a part - and possibly spiritually tied - to something that is corrupt and perverted and not partake of the potential consequences. "Come out of her My people".

But I agree about being called a Christian. Its niether here nor there to me. Although these days there are as many species of Christian and varieties of Christianity as there are adherents.

TV

Hi TV01

How bodi now?

Enigma:

From here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/aug/09/religion-christianity

Is it possible to revile Christians whilst holding true to Jesus' teachings?

Earlier this month, Anne Rice announced that she was stopping being a Christian – but that she wouldn't give up Christ. Does this make sense? Can you have one without the other? Could you cling to the prophet and abandon Islam? More generally, should anyone be held responsible for the crimes of their co-believers? Should they hold themselves responsible?

It may be that the answer for Christians and for other religions is "yes", they can and should. Monotheistic religions aren't just matters of personal preference, but of collective effort. They command the believers to build a better society. So do many forms of atheism. So if the building turns out to be slaughterhouse, or a jail, perhaps it's right to leave the work crew. But must you then repudiate the ideals that you have seen betrayed?

Whatever it is that Anne Rice sees in the figure of Christ is the same thing as fuels her revulsion from her fellow Christians. So, how to deal with the problem?

Interesting!

It doesn't make spiritual sense. An amazed at the applause some of you guys are giving to her in her backsliden state or about to. Any spiritual person should know this lady is suffering from discouragement, it is a sign of weakness. Her utterance and decision is unscriptural. "because the usher offended me , i will quit church"

A Christian has 2 ministry . 1. Ministry to the world . 2.ministry in the body of christ.
You are under obligation to fulfil the two. Christianity is not the sitting at home idea, and "talking to my God alone till I die" No! . We are vital part of a whole. We have a ministry to one another in the church. Fellowship is a vital part of Christianity.

Hebrews 10:25
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some[ is]; but exhorting[ one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

You can't love God and not love the brethren , even in their mistakes. Your love for God must be demonstrated first in the church. If not you don't love God at all.

1 John 5:1
and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 John 4:20
for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

So whatever her reason, that shouldn't make her do contrary to the word. You can't love christ and refrain from his people and from spiritual responsibility in the church. Jesus had said "offences shall come" but love does not take account of evil. We forgive others and move on. The church is not a place of perfect people but a place of perfecting people.

^^^

Revelations

18:1 After these things, I saw another angel coming down out of the sky, having great authority. The earth was illuminated with his glory.
18:2 He cried with a mighty voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and she has become a habitation of demons, a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird!
18:3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of her impure passion, the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from the abundance of her luxury."
18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, that you have no participation in her sins, and that you don't receive of her plagues,
18:5 for her sins have reached to the sky, and God has remembered her iniquities.
18:6 Return to her just as she returned, and repay her double as she did, and according to her works. In the cup which she mixed, mix to her double.
18:7 However much she glorified herself, and grew wanton, so much give her of torment and mourning. For she says in her heart, 'I sit a queen, and am no widow, and will in no way see mourning.'
18:8 Therefore in one day her plagues will come: death, mourning, and famine; and she will be utterly burned with fire; for the Lord God who has judged her is strong.
18:9 The kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived wantonly with her, will weep and wail over her, when they look at the smoke of her burning,
18:10 standing far away for the fear of her torment, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For your judgment has come in one hour.'
18:11 The merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise any more;
18:12 merchandise of gold, silver, precious stones, pearls, fine linen, purple, silk, scarlet, all expensive wood, every vessel of ivory, every vessel made of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble;
18:13 and cinnamon, incense, perfume, frankincense, wine, olive oil, fine flour, wheat, sheep, horses, chariots, bodies, and people's souls.
18:14 The fruits which your soul lusted after have been lost to you, and all things that were dainty and sumptuous have perished from you, and you will find them no more at all.
18:15 The merchants of these things, who were made rich by her, will stand far away for the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning;
18:16 saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, she who was dressed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls!
18:17 For in an hour such great riches are made desolate.' Every shipmaster, and everyone who sails anywhere, and mariners, and as many as gain their living by sea, stood far away,
18:18 and cried out as they looked at the smoke of her burning, saying, 'What is like the great city?'
18:19 They cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had their ships in the sea were made rich by reason of her great wealth!' For in one hour is she made desolate.
18:20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, you saints, apostles, and prophets; for God has judged your judgment on her."
18:21 A mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down, and will be found no more at all.
18:22 The voice of harpists, minstrels, flute players, and trumpeters will be heard no more at all in you. No craftsman, of whatever craft, will be found any more at all in you. The sound of a mill will be heard no more at all in you.
18:23 The light of a lamp will shine no more at all in you. The voice of the bridegroom and of the bride will be heard no more at all in you; for your merchants were the princes of the earth; for with your sorcery all the nations were deceived.
18:24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on the earth."

Obviously Babylon is the false church which becomes the order of the day. Why does the Word ask that we come out of it, not "forgive others and move on"?

Should you go to church? Watch this video clip,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg98NvvbBCM

@Topic:
It was actually the world that coined the appellation "Christian" (It was actually a derogatory term!): So in answer to the question, yes. If you actually follow Christ, the world will call you "Christian" even if you refuse to be called such.
But the problem is that a lot of times people who say they are giving up Christianity while retaining Christ weren't "Christian" to start with. For love for the brethren is what characterizes disciples of Christ, and a lot of them are "Christian".

nuclearboy:

Welcome, Anne Rice, to the gathering of those that worship God in Spirit and in Truth 

^I think you were too quick to assume Anne Rice was reading from the same bible as you. Read this her comment on her facebook page:
"In the name of Christ, I refuse to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism. I refuse to be anti-science. I refuse to be anti-life. In the name of Christ, I quit Christianity and being Christian. Amen."
Bear in mind that in today's world to say the Bible condemns being gay is interpreted as "anti-gay" And as for feminist. . .the less said the better.

aletheia:

@Topic:
It was actually the world that coined the appellation "Christian" (It was actually a derogatory term!): So in answer to the question, yes. If you actually follow Christ, the world will call you "Christian" even if you refuse to be called such.
But the problem is that a lot of times people who say they are giving up Christianity while retaining Christ weren't "Christian" to start with. For love for the brethren is what characterizes disciples of Christ, and a lot of them are "Christian".
^I think you were too quick to assume Anne Rice was reading from the same bible as you. Read this her comment on her facebook page:
"In the name of Christ, I refuse to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism. I refuse to be anti-science. I refuse to be anti-life. In the name of Christ, I quit Christianity and being Christian. Amen."
Bear in mind that in today's world to say the Bible condemns being gay is interpreted as "anti-gay" And as for feminist. . .the less said the better.

This is your second post that impressed me

GBAM! This post impresses me.

Mad_Max:

Love is what characterises the disciples of Christ, not 'love of brethren'; whatever that means. The love of Christ has no such arbitrary distinctions, and certainly not one that begins and ends within church fences. Rice is free to be anti-whatever she wants. It's really nobody else's concern. Annie! Annie! Annie!

@Aletheia:

nuclearboy:

"Hey thats what I'm dropping NOT the teachings, mold and truth of Jesus". It is another matter whether she is sincere about it.

Did you notice the bolded? I do understand your point is why I posted that Caveat.

And madmax is right, true love is not selective and does not say "my friend is right just because he is my friend". Christian love is based on truth and regards all men, whether an Osama bin Laden or a David Oyedepo as a creature of God. Who does wrong will be the wrong party before God regardless of belief - How He deals with it is His business

Mad_Max:

Love is what characterises the disciples of Christ, not 'love of brethren'; whatever that means. The love of Christ has no such arbitrary distinctions, and certainly not one that begins and ends within church fences. Rice is free to be anti-whatever she wants. It's really nobody else's concern. Annie! Annie! Annie!

^Whatever. Love for the brethren is what characterizes disciples of Christ, interpret it anyhow you wish:
I John 3:14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

It is the way of the world to talk about a "love" without arbitrary distinctions, an all-encompassing "love" that fails to condemn sin as wrong, forgetting that Christ condemned sin and will come again to Judge it.

Loving someone does not mean you cannot tell him or her that she is doing wrong or in the wrong.

Therefore, it is possible to love people who are gay or whatever even as a Christian.
The only thing you should watch out for is their lifestyle influencing yours.

Love as a christian isn't restricted to just other christians/brethren; it goes beyond that to those who aren't.
We love the persons but do not love their wrong choices; which we should;whenever the opportunity presents itself,
let them know how we feel about them.

But whatever choice they make in such regard, we must respect.

TV01:

Yes its possible. In my case its also true. I am British, but ehtnically, I am Nigerian. To be proper "Nigerian" is a nationality, not an ethnicity. Apologies, but your choice of analogy is rather poor, as is your use of terms. Apologies again "Essex boy"  !

Mr Londonner dont be fooled about your British semetic, let me tell you the truth the british government knows their flesh and blood (rather different in America though) "you and i only have the legality to live freely here if we are to accept the fact in real grounded sense; we are not either English, Scotish or welsh, so get that sinking in to you.

And if i may ask u, so who are christians