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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. (5675 Views)
Is Yahweh The True God? / Is Yahweh The Supreme Creator Or An Evil God? / Profiling Yahweh,the God Of The Jews (2) (3) (4)
The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by mazaje(m): 3:22pm On Aug 23, 2010 |
I have read about this topic here when it was once raised by pastorAIO, but I wasn't informed enough to comment on it. . . . .Until I did my own personal research, Now that I have more time, I would like to show, with appeal to scholarly sources and the biblical text, that Israel was not always monotheistic (as expressed in passages like Isaiah 44:6, Deuteronomy 32:39, and Isaiah 45:5), and previously took for granted the existence of other Gods in the bible. . . . . . . Deuteronomy 32:8-9 reads When the Most High apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods; 9 Yahweh's own portion was his people, Jacob his allotted share. We know from the Ugaritic (Ras Shamra) tablets that the Canaanite god El fathered 70 gods; this background informs about Deuteronomy 32:8-9. Then I came across the article Ugarit and the Bible on theology.edu. There is one Ugaritic text which seems to indicate that among the inhabitants of Ugarit, Yahweh was viewed as another son of El. KTU 1.1 IV 14 says: This text seems to show that Yahweh was known at Ugarit, though not as the Lord but as one of the many sons of El. The prophets of the Old Testament rail against Baal, Asherah and various other gods on nearly every page. The reason for this is simple to understand; the people of Israel worshipped these gods along with, and sometimes instead of, Yahweh, the God of Israel. This Biblical denunciation of these Canaanite gods received a fresh face when the Ugaritic texts were discovered, for at Ugarit these were the very gods that were worshipped. El was the chief god at Ugarit. Yet El is also the name of God used in many of the Psalms for Yahweh; or at least that has been the presupposition among pious Christians. Yet when one reads these Psalms and the Ugaritic texts one sees that the very attributes for which Yahweh is acclaimed are the same for which El is acclaimed. In fact, these Psalms were most likely originally Ugaritic or Canaanite hymns to El which were simply adopted by Israel, much like the American National Anthem was set to a beer hall tune by Francis Scott Key. El is called the “father of men”, “creator”, and “creator of the creation”. These attributes are also granted Yahweh by the Old Testament. Here is another very interesting piece from In the Levantine pantheon, the Elohim are the 70 sons of El the Ancient of Days (Olam) assembled on the divine holy place, Mount Zephon (Jebel Aqra). This mountain, which lies in Syria, was regarded as a portal to its heavenly counterpart. The Elohim were originally ruled by El Elyon (God Most High), but He later hands His rule down to the god called Hadad who was known among the common people as "the master" ("Baal". Assembled on the holy mountain of heaven and ruled by one, the pantheon (Elohim) acts as one. The enemy of the Elohim is Yam ("the sea", a chaos monster slain by Baal. Each son was allocated to a specific people (e.g. Yahweh to Israel, Milcom to Moab etc.). It seems the ancient Jews got the idea of their God from previous civilizations, the Canaanites and others, no wonder to preserve do away with them, their God it was written told them to kill them all off and take all that belongs to them. . . . . . |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by mazaje(m): 3:25pm On Aug 23, 2010 |
And this. . . . . . Israel inherited polytheism from late first-millennium Canaan, and Canaanite religion in turn had its roots in the religion of second-millennium Ugarit. In the 2nd millennium, polytheism was expressed through the concepts of the divine council and the divine family, a single entity with four levels: the chief god and his wife (El and Asherah); the seventy divine children or "stars of El" (including Baal, Astarte, Anat, probably Resheph, as well as the sun-goddess Shapshu and the moon-god Yerak); the head helper of the divine household, Kothar wa-Hasis; and the servants of the divine household, including the messenger-gods who would later appear as the "angels" of the Hebrew bible. This very much explains why YHWH is worried about his "chosen people" worshiping other Gods even though he claimed to be the only God. He was jealous of his bro-Gods and he admits it in the commandments in Exodus 20. |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by mazaje(m): 4:09pm On Aug 23, 2010 |
Jeremiah 32:29 -- The Babylonians who are attacking this city will come in and set it on fire; they will burn it down, along with the houses where the people[b] provoked me to anger by burning incense on the roofs to Baal and by pouring out drink offerings to other gods.[/b] Ezekiel 8:13-14 -- Again, he said, "You will see them doing things that are even more detestable." 14 Then he brought me to the entrance to the north gate of the house of the LORD, and I saw women sitting there, mourning for Tammuz. Why would Yahweh, the supposed only true God, name other Gods by name and be so upset that his people are praying to them if they didn't exist? Why wouldn't he just prove to his people once and for all that Baal, Tammuz and the other Gods didn't exist at all? Instead, he includes as part of his written laws that his people will worship no other Gods before him and that he is very jealous. He isn't talking about money or fame, he's talking about Baal, Tammuz, Zeus, etc. Does he really believe there are other Gods out there? Of course in reality, it is the authors of the OT that pen this and it is their view that their God may believe in them help them. Yet to many people the bible is divinely inspired. . . . . . |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by Image123(m): 9:19pm On Aug 23, 2010 |
^YEYE upon YEYE. Let me teach/remind you a song. d d r m m r m (2times) s f m r, m f f d r f m r d, r m m t d.(solfa) Jesus na you be Oga (2 times) All other gods, na so so yeye Ev'ry other god, na so so yeye. |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by mazaje(m): 9:26pm On Aug 23, 2010 |
Image123: How is Jesus better than Allah or any other God out there?. . . . . . |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by Krayola(m): 9:48pm On Aug 23, 2010 |
The final editors of the Hebrew canon were fervent monotheists, but a remnant of the polytheistic basis of the pre-Mosaic religion can still be detected. Albrecht Alt has shown that divine titles such as 'El Bet' el (Gen. 31:13; 35:7); 'El 'Olam (Gen. 21:33); and 'El Ro'i (Gen. 16:13); 'El 'Elyon (Gen. 14:18); and 'El Saddai (Gen. 17:1); all later taken to be one God (Yahweh) after Moses, were all originally separate gods worshipped by the early Hebrews.3 The Catholic scholar Bruce Vawter concurs with Alt. According to Vawter, none of the available English translations does justice to the original Hebrew of Genesis 31:13, which quite simply reads "I am the god Bethel" ('El Bet'el), who was a member of the Canaanite pantheon along with the rest of the above.4 The original meaning is therefore quite different from the traditional understanding: this god at Bethel is not the universal Lord who appeared at Bethel but just one god among many – a local deity of a specific place. http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/henotheism.htm |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by Nobody: 10:13pm On Aug 23, 2010 |
Image123:do u play keyboard or guitar? |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by Image123(m): 1:52am On Aug 24, 2010 |
^no, but i can deceive myselfs small on the keyboard. |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by Nobody: 6:36am On Aug 24, 2010 |
At all at all na hin bad. Me i pro on all |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by PastorAIO: 10:34am On Aug 24, 2010 |
Yahweh turning up in Ugaritic texts is interesting because that makes it hard to understand why the Hebrews hadn't heard of him before. The bible says explicitly that Yahweh appeared to Moses and told him that he was the God of their fathers though they didn't know him as Yahweh, but by a different name. mazaje: I am not convinced that the Jews were a different civilization from the Canaanites. In fact certain recent archaeological evidence suggests that there wasn't really an invasion of Canaan (by the nomadic hebrews) but rather that they had been there all the time. They were the lower classes of the Canaanite nations. The rise of Israel could well be the first ever socialist revolution we have on record. The Canaanite cities were in decline and new technology was changing the world at a frightening rate. Reading the book of Joshua and the conquests of Canaan it seems as if canaan was conquered in a single mighty military expedition starting with Jericho. But Archaeological evidence shows that these cities actually fell over a period of about 400 years. Not in one single military campaign. It was a gradual decline, and some cities were not actually destroyed but rather just abandoned. Canaanite civilization was falling apart and out of the debris rose the nation of Israel. But where does this picture leave the bible story? Well it is possible that at the same time nomadic wanderers emigrated in to settle in canaan and mixed with the lower class canaanites who had thrown of the shackles of their oppressors. The stories of wandering in the desert could be the story of these emigrants. So it is natural that there is so much canaanite religion in the old testament. These guys were canaanites. And secondly the reason they attacked the canaanites was more to do with class struggle than with religious ideological struggle. Oh, and another very interesting thing since the discovery of the ugaritic texts is when the Israelites build the temple for God and God specifies how he wants his temple to be built. Well it turns out that God's specifications were exactly the same as the way all canaanite temples were built. Same outer courtyard, same inner holy of holies, same Altar in the courtyard, same dimensions etc. |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by PastorAIO: 10:40am On Aug 24, 2010 |
Krayola: Krayoooooo, so this guy, you still dey. I miss you o! |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by KunleOshob(m): 2:49pm On Aug 24, 2010 |
Mmmmh very interesting reading. |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by mazaje(m): 9:07pm On Aug 24, 2010 |
Krayola ! Its very nice to have you back, how have you been doing?. . . . . |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by mazaje(m): 11:28am On Aug 25, 2010 |
Judges 11:23-24: The text is somewhat confused, because Chemosh was actually the god of the Moabites, and Milcom was the god of the Ammonites (see 1 Kings 11:5, 33), but the point remains, and the belief that what transpired with the gods in heaven impacted earthly events was also believed by other ANE inhabitants, including the Moabites, as evidenced by the Moabite Stone. . . . . And I made this high place for Kemosh in Qarhar . . . because of the deliverance of Mesha, and because he has saved me from all the kings and because he caused me to see [my desire] upon all who hated me. Omri, king of Israel -- he oppressed Moab many days, because Chemosh was angry with his land. Compare the language used by Jeremiah in his oracle against Moab: Jeremiah 48:1 Concerning Moab. From this verse of the bible its clear that Yahweh also believe in the existence of other Gods like him. . . . . . . Micah 4:1-5: Its very clear even from the bible that Yahweh evolved into a superior God from amongst his fellow bro-Gods, even the bible has Yahweh acknowledging the existence of other Gods, but the only thing is that he claims t be the only true God while all the others are false Gods, the same claim will be made by the other Gods to their people. . . . . .The Jews were never really a monotheistic people, their monotheism itself evolved with time because they wanted to form an identity for themselves. . . . . |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by vedaxcool(m): 2:34pm On Aug 25, 2010 |
mazaje: [b]i THINK i UNDERSTAND YOUR PROBLEM, You see in Islam, the Qur'an tells us that every single Nation was given guidance, that is, to every ethnic or race group, Allah sent messengers to tell them about worshiping GOD. Now I can't say with certainty that all religions in the world are from ALLAH, But I can say that many religion in the World are from GOD. Having said that I will add that some Muslim scholars have through this verse and some other Hadith brought out a model(Degeneration Model) on why so many religions over time. 1. We Muslims maintain that every religion that come from GOD had the same consistent message Ie GOD is one and direct all worship to him alone. 2. According to a hadith ( unfortunately I cannot get my hand on it), The Prophet spoke about an ancient group of people whom GOD sent a Messenger, after some time the messenger was able to guide his people then he died. Hence they rose a group of pious individuals who carried on from that messenger, after they died their people built statures of them and made elaborate Graves for them. Then later generation began to worship this Idols thinking that was the reason they were built( Satn decieved them), hence with time the religion became pure Idolatry. As for the Bible--OT-- I think to a great the writers atimes engange in braging that atimes made it look as if there are other divity except GOD. From what I understand from your post you seem to be reading out what social?? evolutionist have to say about religion that is monotheism came from polytheism, which I think using their Logic of Evolution is wrong as Dwarmin said that Big(complex) came from small(Simple), in other words Polytheism actually came from Monotheism, as in most Polytheistic religion you will note subtlely that there is a big GOD who controls the smaller gods, even looking at catholism you will see that the Hadith I explained earlier fits like a glove that is when their saints? die they begin to worship him, even the same thing with other branches of Christianity you will notice how the prefer worshiping Jesus rather then the reaql Lord, looking closely at Trinity you will note that Father appears to send other gods?? on errand. again some Misguided Muslim involve themslves in the shameless Saint Worship, this is an indication that peole tend to make monotheistic religion Polytheistic with time. [/b] 1 Like |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by jackdaniel(m): 3:34pm On Aug 25, 2010 |
The evolution of Yahweh; Quite interesting. I can't agree less that the concept of the judeochristian deity was borrowed from earlier cultures in the ancient semantic world. In the quest to know the metamorphosis of the deity, I would kindly implore you(majaze) to try and understand the mechanisms that enabled the concept of the deity to thrive and evolve for thousands of years while the concepts of its rival deities are almost delegated to the archives of historical texts. However, one should not take ancient religious text literally as accurate historical references; would you take the Nigerian folklore stories for their literal representation? In my own opinion, i do not believe the Jews are fervent monotheist, their religion is more of an hybrid synthesis of monotheism and polytheism. @ pastorAIO and Krayola i dey greet ohhhhh, where una dey all this while? abeg make una continue dey write una exquisite articles |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by jackdaniel(m): 4:03pm On Aug 25, 2010 |
Deu 32 vs 8 The unrevised text would have read thus: בְּהַנְחֵל עֶלְיוֹן גּוֹיִם בְּהַפְרִידֹו בְּנֵי אָדָם יַצֵּב גְּבֻלֹת עַמִּים לְמִסְפַּר בְּנֵי שֹׁר־אֵל וַיְהִי חֵלֶק יהוה עַמֹּו יַעֲקֹב חֶבֶל נַחֲלָתֹו When Elyon gave the nations an inheritance, when he divided humankind, he set the bounds of the peoples according to the number of El’s children, and Yahweh’s portion was his people, Jacob, the lot of his inheritance. |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by mazaje(m): 8:56pm On Aug 25, 2010 |
jackdaniel: I recently found out that most of the English translation of the OT is fraudulent, because it does not paint the actual picture of what is being said . . . . . . . . . |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by mazaje(m): 8:59pm On Aug 25, 2010 |
vedaxcool: Do you want me to start a topic about the evolution of Allah?. . . . . .I just hope you know that Allah was elevated to his present status by Mohamed and his cohorts. . . . . . . . |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by jackdaniel(m): 12:06am On Aug 26, 2010 |
Do you want me to start a topic about the evolution of Allah?. . . . . .I just hope you know that Allah was elevated to his present status by Mohamed and his cohorts. . . . . . . . LWKMD, a thread of that nature might make some people declare FATWA on your head; one should not forget that mere cartoons made some kill others in the name of religious bru-ha-ha, I wonder what a rational religious/historical discuss would lead to? that is what i call a religion of PEACE(indeed, *sigh*), as wole soyinka put it in his brilliant work THE CLIMATE OF FEAR "before, it was I am right and you are wrong, but it is now I am right and you are dead", LWKMD |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by Nobody: 12:27am On Aug 26, 2010 |
"About God, we can only know that what we know is nothing". |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by mazaje(m): 5:00am On Aug 26, 2010 |
jackdaniel: Religion of peace indeed. . . . . |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by Rhino3dm: 6:32am On Aug 26, 2010 |
Maza! To yaya? Kana lafiya? |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by vedaxcool(m): 8:28am On Aug 26, 2010 |
jackdaniel: Yawn, you can quote from your god(wole soyinka) , it is all Koshar onto you. mazaje: Are you crying beCOZ i HAVE GIVEN A MORE Rational response to your post? Alhamdulila, you could not bring yourself to reply its' content. |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by PastorAIO: 10:37am On Aug 26, 2010 |
vedaxcool: So how do you explain the fact that the arabs had many gods and now they only have one? How do you explain the Satanic verses of Muhammad? You will need to bring historical evidence that at early stages of society or religion what was practiced was monotheism. |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by vedaxcool(m): 11:26am On Aug 26, 2010 |
Pastor AIO: And you explain to us Why there are other gods beside the real GOD. |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by mazaje(m): 11:07pm On Aug 26, 2010 |
Rhino.3dm: Ina nan lafiya lau, Kai fa? Da fatan kana nan lafiya kai ma. . . . . .Na gode. . . . |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by Krayola(m): 2:38am On Aug 27, 2010 |
Pastor AIO: I still dey o. Me sef dey miss una well well. Been busier than a houseboy in Anambra Hope u're doing great! mazaje: I'm fine, thanks. U? I'll try to post much more often. I've really missed this crazy place. @Jackdaniel. I hail u too o. Hope say u dey gbadun life. |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by PastorAIO: 9:55am On Aug 27, 2010 |
So how do you explain the fact that the arabs had many gods and now they only have one? -------> If you have any iota of your Bible, let me ask the following questions who was the progenitor of the Arab, ans Ismael, what was his religion? ans common sense will tell you that he followed the path(religion) of his Father who was also a monotheist, then what religion would his people follow? ans Simply the religion of their Progenitor, like I said with time people devaited from the right part and started worshiping Idols.ALLAh sent the prophet to re correct their steps, hence the Prophet succeded with GOD's Help. Maybe you didn't want me to answer that's why you put your post in the quote box so I couldn't quote it. no wahala. I can work around that. who was the progenitor of the Arab, ans Ismael, what was his religion? I don't know if you're actually following this thread. If you did then you'd know that we've already suggested that Abraham being canaanite was at least an henotheist. We also know that Abraham saw El and invited him to eat. It was only after entertaining him that he realized that he had just had an encounter with El. This does not fit in with the attributes of the Islamic Allah at all. All thought evolves. Science, religion, ideology, you name it. It all evolves. You have not demonstrated in any way or form that monotheism necessarily changes into polytheism. I suspect that you haven't fully grasped the intricacies of this subject that we're talking about. This topic has been dealt with extensively in other thread and hardly has any connection to this thread Far from having nothing to do with this thread it shows that Allah was conceived as having 3 daughters previously, and that Muhammad removed them from arabic religion because he was trying to enforce monotheism. At times he succumbed to the pressure of the original tradition and that was how the satanic verses got into the quran, but he later reneged on his compromise. This also shows that the evolution of islam was as much influenced by political pressures as by muhammad's inspiration. You have done nothing to demonstrate why polytheism necessarily evolves out of monotheism and not vice versa. What is the mechanism? How does the process unfold? If you want to talk intelligently about this then you are required to demonstrate your assertions. Looking at most religion of the world there is always a "BIG" GOD who controls the smaller gods, this is an indication there were probably Monotheistic initially before failing. this is ridiculous. It indicates nothing of the sort. If you look at most religions that have a 'big god' ruling smaller gods you will also realize that the 'big God' is nothing like the monotheistic Allah of Islam. Take Yoruba religion for example, Eledumare, or Chineke in Igbo religion. This ultimate source does not receive ritualistic worship. Chineke/Olodumare does not have a priesthood, does not receive animal sacrifices (unlike the moslem ram slaughter), does not require fasting or observance of calendar dates etc etc. These are things that the orisha, or lesser Gods require from their adherents. Please consider this Ifa verse from the odu of Ogundabede (ogunda ogbe): Eke re bi ogun odun, ko de The dishonesty travelled for 20 years it failed to arrive Eke re ajo osu mefa, ko bo Dishonesty travelled for 6 further months, it still hasn't come Otito inu ni ajeku ju iro lo Inner truth, even the remnants(left-overs) of it, is greater than a lie A difa fun Baba Imale ab'ewu-gereje This was divined for Baba Imale, with the flowing robes A ni biwon d'aye tan, iro ni won ma a pa They said when he arrived in the world finish, it is lies that he will just be lying Iro naa ni awon Imale npa titi di oni oloni. It is lies that Imale tells up until today's today. Won a ma wipe awon n gba'awe olorun ni odoodun. They will claim that they are fasting on behalf of Olorun every year. Esu wa to won lo ni ojo'kan. So Esu got on their case one day. O bere lowo won pe He asked them Kini idi re ti won maa nwipe awon ngbaawe olorun ni odoodun? What is the reason why you claim that you're fasting for olorun every year? E nso nipa eyi pe: Olorun ku ni? Are you claiming about this that Olorun is dead? Tabi o ni ibanuje? Or that he is suffering upset? Olorun ko ha je Otito-inu bi? Olorun is Essential/innate Truth, don't you know? O ni: Hen! ngbaawe Olorun, Olorun kiiku. He said: Hah! you're fasting for Olorun, yet olorun doesn't die. Edumare Kiis'okunrun. Edumare is never sick. Oran ibanuje kiiba olodumare. The problems of inner upset do not affect olodumare. Lile ni Esu le agbajo won., Nitorinaa, gbogbo won si tuka lo. Esu drove them away, subsequently they scattered. Orin ti Esu ko ni ojo naa ni: A maigbo iku Olodumare o A f'eke o a f'era . . . This was the song that Esu sang on that day: We will never hear of the death of Olodumare Only the death of the dishonest, and of the liars. |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by vedaxcool(m): 9:54pm On Aug 27, 2010 |
Pastor AIO link=topic=501927.msg6648714#msg6648714 date=128289933t. |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by mazaje(m): 10:09pm On Aug 27, 2010 |
^^^^ What the heck is this guy ranting about? Does this guy know anything about the evolution of Allah? |
Re: The Evolution Of Yahweh The God Of The Jews. by Nobody: 7:51am On Aug 11, 2012 |
This thread has brought me back to perspective. |
God Never Makes Mistakes? Some Undeniable Mistakes From The Bible / Karma Is False / About Death: Inviting: DeepSight, Thehomer, Ihedinobi, Reyginus, Kay 17 etc.
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