@stimulus

stimulus:
Meanwhile, firdaus4us, whenever you return from exile, the questions will be there. Even if I'm away for a few days or weeks, you will certainly find me waiting for you!

.Well, from their utterances we shall know them.

Back to your question about WE as used in the Holy Quran. The WE Allah used in the Holy Quran is not in anyway means that Allah is more than one. Next time before you post such a question make sure you contact advance dictionary. Notwitstanding, let me help you with some definitions of WE.

1. nominative pl. of I. 
2. (used to denote oneself and another or others): We have two children. In this block we all own our own houses. 
3. (used to denote people in general): the marvels of science that we take for granted. 
4. (used to indicate a particular profession, nationality, political party, etc., that includes the speaker or writer): We in the medical profession have moral responsibilities. 
5. Also called the royal we. (used by a sovereign, or by other high officials and dignitaries, in place of I in formal speech): We do not wear this crown without humility. 
6. Also called the editorial we. (used by editors, writers, etc., to avoid the too personal or specific I or to represent a collective viewpoint): As for this column, we will have nothing to do with shady politicians. 
7. you (used familiarly, often with mild condescension or sarcasm, as in addressing a child, a patient, etc.): We know that's naughty, don't we? It's time we took our medicine. 
8. (used in the predicate following a copulative verb): It is we who should thank you. 
9. (used in apposition with a noun, esp. for emphasis): We Americans are a sturdy lot. 

[b]source:[/b]Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

@firdaus4us,

firdaus4us:

@stimulus
.Well, from their utterances we shall know them.

We are getting to know you chaps from your utterances!

firdaus4us:

Back to your question about WE as used in the Holy Quran. The WE Allah used in the Holy Quran is not in anyway means that Allah is more than one. Next time before you post such a question make sure you contact advance dictionary. Notwitstanding, let me help you with some definitions of WE.

I indeed consulted advanced dictionaries before taking my questions straight out of your holy book. You Muslims often accuse Christians of being polytheists. No wahala: we just want you to look a bit closer home before you attempt any such next time.

firdaus4us:

1. nominative pl. of I.
2. (used to denote oneself and another or others): We have two children. In this block we all own our own houses.
3. (used to denote people in general): the marvels of science that we take for granted.
4. (used to indicate a particular profession, nationality, political party, etc., that includes the speaker or writer): We in the medical profession have moral responsibilities.
5. Also called the royal we. (used by a sovereign, or by other high officials and dignitaries, in place of I in formal speech): We do not wear this crown without humility.
6. Also called the editorial we. (used by editors, writers, etc., to avoid the too personal or specific I or to represent a collective viewpoint): As for this column, we will have nothing to do with shady politicians.
7. you (used familiarly, often with mild condescension or sarcasm, as in addressing a child, a patient, etc.): We know that's naughty, don't we? It's time we took our medicine.
8. (used in the predicate following a copulative verb): It is we who should thank you.
9. (used in apposition with a noun, esp. for emphasis): We Americans are a sturdy lot.

source:[/b]Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

Oga firdaus4us, after all the quotation, how have you answered my question? Is English a problem with you guys or what? If I wanted to know the meaning of the words "[b]WE", "US", and "OUR", I know what books to read them up from!

I see you have highlighted #5 in the list of definitions of the word "WE". Lol. . . oga, I have surprises for you! I want you to explain how that relates to my question; and when you do, I will expose the antics of the propaganda Muslim apologists often use to cover up their polytheism. Just be man enough to prove your mettle, and I will oblige you some no-nonsense answers.

Shalom!

i think you two just want to argue and not debate.

@stimulus
WE as used in the Quran means ALLAH.  
Don't divert our attention away from the main topic of the post, God Is Above Jesus Christ. Create another topic for your question.

@christian

Please explain this verses:
John 14 vs 8-9
8: Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied."
9: Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?

vis-s-vis:

john 4 vs 37
And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen;

@thesilent1,

I earlier stated that I'm not given to arguments that lead nowhere. Since they have been glomming unto that as excuse for their antics, I decided to help them reason. QED.

@firdaus4us,

firdaus4us:

@stimulus
WE as used in the Quran means ALLAH.

How many 'allah' are represented by the plural pronoun "WE", "US" and "OUR"??

firdaus4us:

Don't divert our attention away from the main topic of the post, God Is Above Jesus Christ.

Cry louder! Is that not the same thing you and your folks have been doing? This thread seeks to deal with "God Is Above Jesus Christ" - does that sound like the defelction that you guys have been posting all along?

I only offered my questions to help you come round your misgivings. If you can't offer answers, your problem - not mine.

firdaus4us:

Create another topic for your question.

Nope - the present one will do, thank you. Your brother babs787 has been accusing me of opening threads (plural) whereas I opened only one as an answer to his several challenges; and he's jumping round and calling me names.

No qualms. Here, just be man enough to offer explanation as to how your single 'allah' can be a plural "WE", "US" and "OUR" at the same time, if that is not disguised polytheism.

Want more ayats from the Qur'an?? Ask - just a few minutes away!  

@stimulus

You have shown yourself again, always avoiding issues. Mind you, my questions came before yours, so please answer my questions first in the way listed and I will do justice to yours.

I have prepared detailed response to your question on the use of 'we' in the Quran and when I post it, you will have to refute it.

Be a man and stop behaving like a coward.

TRUTH HAS COME FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH

okay, this one is starting to annoy me now! LOL
can i just say one thing; why do you think that NOT being able to answer a question automatically means that you are wrong!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! LOL

Listen, to all Muslims and even Christians out there; i am the first to say that i do not understand EVERY part of the bible BUT i do know enough to help me through life! what more do you need!!!!!!!!!

to both christians and muslims, if the validity of your faith is just based on YOUR defense of it, then you have missed it! its like you are almost looking to convince yourself!!!!

here are certain facts that i need to confess to now; maybe this will save some people from certain boring posts:

1. I DO NOT KNOW WHAT JESUS LOOKED LIKE AS I NEVER MET HIM!
2. I WAS NOT AT THE CRUCIFICTION SO I CAN NOT TELL YOU THE INTRICATE DETAILS
3. I DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT THE BIBLE
4. I BELIEVE IN GOD, THE DEATH AND RESSURECTION OF CHRIST AND IN ETERNAL SALVATION THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST
5. I CAN NOT CONVINCE YOU TO BELIEVE ANYTHING I HAVE SAID OR WILL EVER SAY!!
6. EVEN IF YOU FIND A FLAW IN MY DISCUSSION WITH YOU DOES NOT MEAN MY FAITH IS WRONG! ITS JUST THAT LITTLE OLD ME GOT IT WRONG!!!!!


i hope the above saves some people from stress!

Peace!

@babs787,

babs787:

@stimulus

You have shown yourself again, always avoiding issues. Mind you, my questions came before yours, so please answer my questions first in the way listed and I will do justice to yours.

Alhaji babs, you can allege as much as you want. Only lackeys in the ghettos argue issues like that - "my questions came before yours!". It doesn't matter how they come, I have dealt with most of them. I only focused on other issues for a while as I'm not the kind to be drawn out into roundabout debates and endless arguments. When I felt it was time to touch up on some of your allegations, what did you do? You exploded and started name-calling . . . even to the extent that you referred to the Muslim authors I quoted as LIARS!!

babs787:

I have prepared detailed response to your question on the use of 'we' in the Quran and when I post it, you will have to refute it.

Thank you; and please leave me the weblinks where you plagiarize them from, so that I can verify that you're not dressing up the articles and quoting them out of contexts!

babs787:

Be a man and stop behaving like a coward.

I'm used to your name-calling; it hasn't helped to erase your fraud.

babs787:

TRUTH HAS COME FALSEHOOD IS BOUND TO PERISH

Na so! That's why your falsehood is still suffering from the exposure so far!!

@stimulus,
WE in the Holy Quran mean ALLAH AND ALLAH ALONE. Any contrary view? Then, your evidence.

@thesilent1
Hmmmmmmm

Una do well o

@firdaus4us,

firdaus4us:

@stimulus,
WE in the Holy Quran mean ALLAH AND ALLAH ALONE. Any contrary view? Then, your evidence.

Now, you're talking. In common usage, WE, US and OUR are plural pronouns, never singular. There are numerous verses in the Qur'an where 'allah' speaks as plural and not as a singular entity, and that is what I have offered earlier. Let me quote a reminder and ask a more pointed question:

"Yet when WE bestow OUR favours on man, he turns away and becomes
remote on his side (instead of coming to US), and when evil seizes him
he gives himself up to despair! (Qur'an 17:83)

I just want to understand this: why was 'allah' in that verse speaking as US when he said: "instead of coming to US"?? How is it that language, even in Quraish Arabic, could not have used the singular pronouns (I, ME) there is indeed the Islamic 'allah' is a single entity without partners??

@stimulus,

stimulus:


"Yet when WE bestow OUR favours on man, he turns away and becomes
remote on his side (instead of coming to US), and when evil seizes him
he gives himself up to despair! (Qur'an 17:83)

I just want to understand this: why was 'allah' in that verse speaking as US when he said: "instead of coming to US"?? How is it that language, even in Quraish Arabic, could not have used the singular pronouns (I, ME) there is indeed the Islamic 'allah' is a single entity without partners??

Actually, the words in parenthesis (instead of coming to US) are not found in other English translations, but are rather the interjections of the translator (Yusuf Ali). Compare with some others:

Yusuf Ali - Yet when We bestow Our favours on man, he turns away and becomes remote on his side (instead of coming to Us), and when evil seizes him he gives himself up to despair!

Sale - When we bestow favours on man, he retireth and withdraweth himself [ungratefully from us]: But when evil toucheth him, he despaireth [of our mercy].

Pickthall - And when We make life pleasant unto man, he turneth away and is averse; and when ill toucheth him he is in despair.

Hilali-Khan - And when We bestow Our Grace on man (the disbeliever), he turns away and becomes arrogant, far away from the Right Path. And when evil touches him he is in great despair.

Shakir - And when We bestow favor on man, he turns aside and behaves proudly, and when evil afflicts him, he is despairing.

Khalifa - When we bless the human being, he becomes preoccupied and heedless. But when adversity strikes him, he turns despondent.

Sher Ali - And when WE bestow favour on man, he turns away and goes aside; and when evil touches him, he gives himself up to despair.

Arberry - And when We bless man, he turns away, and withdraws aside; but when evil visits him, he is in despair.

Palmer - And when we favour man he turns away and retires aside, but when evil touches him he is ever in despair.

Rodwell - When we bestow favours on man, he withdraweth and goeth aside; but when evil toucheth him, he is despairing.

-------------------

Whatever is the case, no honest Muslim who examines the texts carefully even in Arabic will fail to notice that your point is absolutely correct! It is nothing less than disguised polytheism!

@pilgrim.1,

Fair enough. I deliberately used Yusuf Ali's translation for two reasons:

(a) Most Muslims praise it as an excellent translation, devoid of any errors, etc, etc. By quoting from his translation, I had intended that the same Muslims would come back and denounce this much-praised translation and confirm my earlier assertion that it does not represent a standard for the Muslim world.

(b) This is only typical to exhibit to Muslims on the Forum that so many issues which they allege against Christianity is actually well-established in their own camp.

Nonetheless, I was glad you could see and admit the fact that there are verses in the Qur'an that reveal Islam is just a religion of disguised polytheism.

Wey the Islamic monotheists?? I'm also interested in your answers to these issues here about the WE-US-OUR of a single 'Allah' in the Qur'an.

@Gwaine


Stop avoiding issues like one of your brothers here. I asked him question first, so you should answer me first and I will supply you my response to your question. Below are my questions:


When you finish answering my brother's question, you will tell me who

1.  Jesus prayed to at gethsemane

2.  Jesus  shouted to on the cross that 'my God my God, why has thou forsaken me'

3.Is God three-in-one and one in three simultaneously or one at a time?

4.
If God is one and three simultaneously, then none of the three could be the complete God. Granting that such was the case, then when Jesus was on earth, he wasn’t a complete God, nor was the "father in Heaven" a whole God. Doesn’t that contradict what Jesus always said about His God and our God in heaven, his Lord and our Lord ? Does that also mean that there was no complete god then, between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrection?

5.
If God is one and three at a time, then who was the God in heaven when Jesus was on earth? Wouldn’t this contradict his many references to a God in Heaven that sent him?

6.
If God is three and one at the same time, who was the God in Heaven within three days between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrection?

7.
Christians say that: "The Father(F) is God, the Son(S) is God, and the Holy Ghost(H) is God, but the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is not the Father". In simple arithmetic and terms therefore, if F = G, S = G, and H = G, then it follows that F = S = H, while the second part of the statement suggests that F ¹ S ¹ H (meaning, "not equal". Isn’t that a contradiction to the Christian dogma of Trinity in itself ?


8.
If Jesus was God, why did he tell the man who called him "good master" not to call him "good" because accordingly, there is none good but his God in Heaven alone?

9.
Why do Christians say that God is three-in-one and one in three when Jesus says in Mark 12:29: "The Lord our God is one Lord" in as many places as yet in the Bible?

10
.If belief in the Trinity was such a necessary condition for being a Christian, why didn’t Jesus teach and emphasize it to the Christians during his time? How were those followers of Jesus considered Christians without ever hearing the term Trinity? Had the Trinity been the spinal cord of Christianity, Jesus would have emphasized it on many occasions and would have taught and explained it in detail to the people.

11.
.Christians claim that Jesus was God as they quote in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". This is John speaking and not Jesus. Also, the Greek word for the first occurrence of God is HOTHEOS which means "the God" or "God" with a capital "G", while the Greek word for its second occurrence is "TONTHEOS", which means "a god " or "god" with a small "g". Isn’t this dishonesty and inconsistency on the part of those translating the Greek Bible? ? Isn’t such quotation in John 1:1 recognized by every Christian scholar of the Bible to have been written by a Jew named Philo Alexandria way before Jesus and John?


12
.Wasn’t the word "god" or "TONTHEOS" also used to refer to others as well as in II Corinthians 4:4 "(and the Devil is) the god of this world" and in Exodus 7:1 "See , I have made thee (Moses ) a god to Pharaoh"?


When you are through, others will be served.

babs787:

@Gwaine

Stop avoiding issues like one of your brothers here. I asked him question first, so you should answer me first and I will supply you my response to your question. Below are my questions:

And who do you suppose yourself to be, by trying to play that silly "me-first-you-next-everybody-last" Islamic game with me? If you wanted answers, they would be given. Playing games with me is a hilarious antic; but it has never worked with me.

If you can't answer questions unless you circumvent issues with these excuses, just grow up - it's sane and safe. Want it otherwise? You'll get it for sure!

@Gwaine


And who do you suppose yourself to be, by trying to play that silly "me-first-you-next-everybody-last" Islamic game with me? If you wanted answers, they would be given. Playing games with me is a hilarious antic; but it has never worked with me.

Okay, I need answers. Thank you as you supply the answers and May God be with you


If you can't answer questions unless you circumvent issues with these excuses, just grow up - it's sane and safe. Want it otherwise? You'll get it for sure!  

I am not doing that bros. Evem if you cant admit the fact that you have been avoiding my questions, you should know that my questions are in line with the subject of this thread hence my asking you first. So feel free professor, I want to learn, explain those questions to me and be rest assured that babs will post his response to your questions immediately after you answers to my qestions.


Are you a pope/Deacon/Pastor?

Hope you are not an ( pls fill the gap) that will want to way lay me on my way out? .

babs787:

Okay, I need answers. Thank you as you supply the answers and May God be with you

You too.  

babs787:

I am not doing that bros. Evem if you can't admit the fact that you have been avoiding my questions, you should know that my questions are in line with the subject of this thread hence my asking you first. So feel free professor, I want to learn, explain those questions to me and be rest assured that babs will post his response to your questions immediately after you answers to my qestions.

When you're done playing your kindergarten games, let me know.

babs787:

Hope you are not an ( please fill the gap) that will want to way lay me on my way out? .

Oya, reveal yourself.   Just fill in your gaps and let us know what's been on your mind.

Gwaine:

And who do you suppose yourself to be, by trying to play that silly "me-first-you-next-everybody-last" Islamic game with me? If you wanted answers, they would be given. Playing games with me is a hilarious antic; but it has never worked with me.

If you can't answer questions unless you circumvent issues with these excuses, just grow up - it's sane and safe. Want it otherwise? You'll get it for sure!

You said if I needed answers that they would be supplied, please I need answers, supply me nowwwwwwwwwwwwww

So, what is happening to the question of Islam's disguised polytheism?

@Telly B

So, what is happening to the question of Islam's disguised polytheism?  

The word 'we' in the Quran

It is a feature of literary style in Arabic that a person may refer to himself by the pronoun nahnu (we) for respect or glorification. He may also use the word ana (I), indicating one person, or the third person huwa (he). All three styles are used in the Qur’an, where Allaah addresses the Arabs in their own tongue. (Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 4/143).

   “Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, sometimes refers to Himself in the singular, by name or by use of a pronoun, and sometimes by use of the plural, as in the phrase (interpretation of the meaning): ‘Verily, We have given you a manifest victory” [al-Fath 48:1], and other similar phrases. But Allaah never refers to Himself by use of the dual, because the plural refers to the respect that He deserves, and may refer to His names and attributes, whereas the dual refers to a specific number (and nothing else), and He is far above that.” (Al-‘Aqeedah al-Tadmuriyyah by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, p. 75).

   These words, innaa (“Verily We”) and nahnu (“We”), and other forms of the plural, may be used by one person speaking on behalf of a group, or they may be used by one person for purposes of respect or glorification, as is done by some monarchs when they issue statements or decrees in which they say “We have decided…” etc. [This is known in English as “The Royal We” – Translator].

In such cases, only one person is speaking but the plural is used for respect. The One Who is more deserving of respect than any other is Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, so when He says in the Qur’an innaa (“Verily We”) and nahnu (“We”), it is for respect and glorification, not to indicate plurality of numbers. If an aayah of this type is causing confusion, it is essential to refer to the clear, unambiguous aayaat for clarification, and if a Christian, for example, insists on taking ayaat such as “Verily, We: it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e., the Qur’an)” [al-Hijr 15:9 – interpretation of the meaning] as proof of divine plurality, we may refute this claim by quoting such clear and unambiguous aayaat as (interpretation of the meanings): “And your god is One God, there is none who has the right to be worshipped but He, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful” [al-Baqarah 2:163] and “Say: He is Allaah, the One” [al-Ikhlaas 112:1] – and other aayaat which can only be interpreted in one way.

Thus confusion will be dispelled for the one who is seeking the truth. Every time Allaah uses the plural to refer to Himself, it is based on the respect and honour that He deserves, and on the great number of His names and attributes, and on the great number of His troops and angels.” (Reference: Al-‘Aqeedah al-Tadmuriyyah by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, p. 109). And Allaah knows best.

   Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com)  


When you are through with the reading and probably rebuttal, you supply answers to my questions

@babs787,

babs787:

When you are through with the reading and probably rebuttal, you supply answers to my questions

Thank you for reposting someone else's article - Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (and thanks for leaving the weblink, because I already have seen that!). I'm not quite impressed that you'd be so quick to entertain us with the usual skit.

Where are YOUR OWN answers you've been "preparing"?? Until YOU address the question directly with what you know, you really have got nothing to offer personally with the clause "my questions"!!

There is good stuff you will read from others (if you've been deliberately avoiding them) - please see especially that of shahan in the following links:

The Royal "WE" used in official speech:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-31610.32.html#msg826834

The WE, US, and OUR of 'Allah':
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-31610.32.html#msg829828

Exposing the MYTH with verses from the Qur'an:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-31610.32.html#msg829830

The links all lead to the same thread: Israel Malik Esthers; and since January 21, 2007 up until now (nearly 4 months between), no Muslim has had anything to say in rebuttal - not even you, babs787!!!

If you've got anything of your own at all, please post them and we shall take you up on them.

Thanks.

@Telly B


You have been going in circles, posting lengthy rejoinders yet not making sense. I didnt notice the link probably because of the topic used.

Now brother, can you just do me good, by rebutting the one posted up.

babs787:

You have been going in circles, posting lengthy rejoinders yet not making sense. I didnt notice the link probably because of the topic used.

"You-have-been-this, you-have-been-that!" I would appreciate it if you can just stick to the issues and impress your adulators behind the scenes. I don't think my rejoinder just above was "lengthy" in contrast to the reposted one you borrowed from the sheikh.

babs787:

Now brother, can you just do me good, by rebutting the one posted up.

Already rebutted by shahan. Post your own scholarship and we'll help you.

That is because we are challenging the accusations of the Qur'an against Christians and Jews that we are polytheists. So, we would like to know what they are in themselves, and amicably examine that issue from their books.

@JERRYMANIA

Insert Quote
@ all

now we are turning away from speaking about the idea of trinity to Allah and polytheism!


I dont blame you at all. Did you see the topic? The thread was created about the deity of Jesus and I asked your folks question on same but rather than answer my questions, they quickly divert topic, typical escapist strategy.



@Telly B

Insert Quote
That is because we are challenging the accusations of the Qur'an against Christians and Jews that we are polytheists. So, we would like to know what they are in themselves, and amicably examine that issue from their books.

Brother if you can deceive yourself, you cant deceive me. You can see the topic of the thread and my questions were in line with the topic. So you should answer my questions and stop avoiding it. I have answered yours and you should rebut it and answer my questions.


Thanks

babs787:

Brother if you can deceive yourself, you can't deceive me. You can see the topic of the thread and my questions were in line with the topic. So you should answer my questions and stop avoiding it. I have answered yours and you should rebut it and answer my questions.

@babs787,

I'm quite used to people using your type of language; and at the end of the day, it only betrays the fact that they had nothing to offer. Okay, I'm deceiving myself. But even so, your ideas have been debunked and your fallacies exposed.

@babs787,

I'm quite used to people using your type of language; and at the end of the day, it only betrays the fact that they had nothing to offer. Okay, I'm deceiving myself. But even so, your ideas have been debunked and your fallacies exposed.


Ok brother, please forget the language used and attend to my questions.

@babs787,

What questions? I have been attending to your questions and all you do is circumvent those I offered. If you can't debate issues fairly, you can as well simply say so.

The Bible has been revised so many times that wwe hardly know the truth. The Bible is not a true book of the words of the almighty cos its full of plagiarism,pornography and gross inconsistencies.