No ideology or belief is perfect in the real world. Everything is flawed on some level. I have written on the faults of atheism in the past, please see my debate with atheists in the following thread; https://www.nairaland.com/4955950/atheism-foolishness/3#74852487

But there are questions with theism that all the sages of Islam, Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism can only answer with "God knows best". "God knows best" is an euphemism for "It doesn't matter, forget about it." But these questions matter because their subjects affect our lives daily.

1. Why Menstruation?

According to Islam & other theistic faith, menses is impure. A woman in menses shall not fast, pray or go near the mosque. Yet, God designed women with menstruation.

Unlike urination, defecation or sweating which are necessary for life, menstruation is not a necessity, not even for reproduction. A lot of mammals do not menstruate.

Menses is basically shedding of uterine lining that naturally forms every month in anticipation of pregnancy. There is no point in this uterine lining forming monthly, since women do not seek to conceive every month. Still, God supposedly designed the uterine lining to not only form but to shed every month?

The menstrual cycle is like a broken tap that keeps running even when nobody need water. It seem too flawed a design, by a flawless God.

Not only this, menstruation cannot be withheld voluntarily, as urination. It cannot simply be wiped off, as sweating, because it continues for days. It is often painful, distressing and inconvenient for women. It is hard to be convinced a most merciful, all intelligent God designed women with menses.

usermane:
But there are questions with theism that all the sages of Islam, Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism can only answer with "God knows best". "God knows best" is an euphemism for "It doesn't matter, forget about it." But these questions matter because their subjects affect our lives daily.

This is what happened when your thinking is limited. Religious scholars give answer (some intellectual and philosophical while some are not) to all questions. However, each of them still insist "God knows best" simply because "God indeed knows best".

At every age, scientists keep on refuting themselves bringing out flaws in their predecessors submission or theories. This is one of the beauty of science the fact that doors of improvement and new discoveries is never closer. Same thing in religious circle with different views and opinions on issues (forget about the fanatics). Sometimes we give reason(s) for something and later we discover it's more than we thought.

All these point to one direction: man's knowledge of this gigantic universe is like a drop of water in ocean. Only the designer of the universe knows it all.

usermane:

The menstrual cycle is like a broken tap that keeps running even when nobody need water. It seem too flawed a design, by a flawless God.

Your point exactly is what? To defend God or question His design?

If you ever study Islamic Philosophy, you will realized that there are and there can only be two types of existence: Necessity or Independent Existence and Possible/contingent/dependant Existence.

Necessity Existence brings about Possible Existence: meaning the later is in need of the former at all time. Every so-called "flaws" in man's design point to a simple fact that we are mumkin al-wujud (possible or contingent existence). If we are perfect then we can no longer be a dependent or contingent existence. We would be Necessary and independent existence.


Anyway, here's one IMPORTANCE of menses:

"The point is that there is every reason to welcome and grace menstruation. According to Dr John Ongech, the head of reproductive health at kenyatta National Hospital (KNH), regular menstruation is a woman's body's way of saying that there is hormonal balance within the body.

"If a woman is not having regular menstruation there must be an explanation for that. When a lady who is at least 18 is not menstruating it is a pointer to a problem - especially if she hopes to have children in future," Ongech says."

 https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/evewoman/article/2001238125/why-is-menstruation-important

AlBaqir:


This is what happened when your thinking is limited. Religious scholars give answer (some intellectual and philosophical while some are not) to all questions. However, each of them still insist "God knows best" simply because "God indeed knows best".

At every age, scientists keep on refuting themselves bringing out flaws in their predecessors submission or theories. This is one of the beauty of science the fact that doors of improvement and new discoveries is never closer. Same thing in religious circle with different views and opinions on issues (forget about the fanatics). Sometimes we give reason(s) for something and later we discover it's more than we thought.

All these point to one direction: man's knowledge of this gigantic universe is like a drop of water in ocean. Only the designer of the universe knows it all.

A more plausible response from the scholars would've been "I/We don't know". Telling people that "God knows best", is like telling them there exist a good explanation that God did not reveal yet. This is all speculation or conjecture.

Your point exactly is what? To defend God or question His design?

If you ever study Islamic Philosophy, you will realized that there are and there can only be two types of existence: Necessity or Independent Existence and Possible/contingent/dependant Existence.

Necessity Existence brings about Possible Existence: meaning the later is in need of the former at all time. Every so-called "flaws" in man's design point to a simple fact that we are mumkin al-wujud (possible or contingent existence). If we are perfect then we can no longer be a dependent or contingent existence. We would be Necessary and independent existence.

This is complicated. Will address it later.

Anyway, here's one IMPORTANCE of menses:

"The point is that there is every reason to welcome and grace menstruation. According to Dr John Ongech, the head of reproductive health at kenyatta National Hospital (KNH), regular menstruation is a woman's body's way of saying that there is hormonal balance within the body.

"If a woman is not having regular menstruation there must be an explanation for that. When a lady who is at least 18 is not menstruating it is a pointer to a problem - especially if she hopes to have children in future," Ongech says."

 https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/evewoman/article/2001238125/why-is-menstruation-important

The End perfect the Means, is basically what you're saying - that menstruation is perfect design since it shows there is hormonal balance in the body.

So, every month, women have to be constantly assured they are in hormonal balance by enduring painful distress and inconvenience. No other less distressing and less impure means could be designed for the female body to show hormonal balance?

FYI, male bodies have their means of showing hormonal balance, which is not half distressing or impure as menses is for women.

Distress often associated with Menstruation

This include a host of physical symptoms; Tender and swollen breast, Abdominal cramps, Bloating, Fatigue, Headache, Irritability, Anxiety, Depressed mood, Insomnia etc. In some women, these can be so severe to warrant medical attention.

The severity of these symptoms may be minimized by exercise and diet modification. But obviously, not every woman is able to afford regular exercise or diet modification at all times of their lives.

Besides, the unenlightened folks may not even know of such measures in minimizing these symptoms. So, menstruation and its associated distress poses a valid question or objection on theism.

1. Why Menstruation?[/b]

According to Islam & other theistic faith, menses is impure. A woman in menses shall not fast, pray or go near the mosque. Yet, God designed women with menstruation.

you brought this up some 5 years ago, isn't?

It is bcuz menstruation is continuous for days and it doesn't give notice. Ask women.

It is a means of emitting what would have turned out to be incurable diseases.


Allah Knows Best

Empiree:


Allah Knows Best

AlBaqir:


This is what happened when your thinking is limited. Religious scholars give answer (some intellectual and philosophical while some are not) to all questions. However, each of them still insist "God knows best" simply because "God indeed knows best".

At every age, scientists keep on refuting themselves bringing out flaws in their predecessors submission or theories. This is one of the beauty of science the fact that doors of improvement and new discoveries is never closer. Same thing in religious circle with different views and opinions on issues (forget about the fanatics). Sometimes we give reason(s) for something and later we discover it's more than we thought.

All these point to one direction: man's knowledge of this gigantic universe is like a drop of water in ocean. Only the designer of the universe knows it all.

God of the gaps and arguments from ignorance fallacy.

How did you know God knows all?

The OP gave a logical point, God has flaws and doesn't knows all.

I've created several threads on God's flaws and imperfections.

AlBaqir:


Your point exactly is what? To defend God or question His design?

If you ever study Islamic Philosophy, you will realized that there are and there can only be two types of existence: Necessity or Independent Existence and Possible/contingent/dependant Existence.

Independent existence? Can you tell us how you arrive at independent existence because theist actually argue in hypocrisy that there can't be independent existence, every existing entity must have a cause even in logical view.

I created a thread asking if Atheism is foolishness? because theists often claim atheists are foolish because they believe in Independent existence.

Necessity Existence brings about Possible Existence: meaning the later is in need of the former at all time.

Yes just like a deterministic cause and effect. But then you assume there is an "independent existence" which contradict this position.

Every so-called "flaws" in man's design point to a simple fact that we are mumkin al-wujud (possible or contingent existence).

Then the designer is not a perfect being and also the designer will also be as a result of a more contingent existence.

If we are perfect then we can no longer be a dependent or contingent existence. We would be Necessary and independent existence.

Perfection does not negate cause and effect.

Anyway, here's one IMPORTANCE of menses:

"The point is that there is every reason to welcome and grace menstruation. According to Dr John Ongech, the head of reproductive health at kenyatta National Hospital (KNH), regular menstruation is a woman's body's way of saying that there is hormonal balance within the body.

"If a woman is not having regular menstruation there must be an explanation for that. When a lady who is at least 18 is not menstruating it is a pointer to a problem - especially if she hopes to have children in future," Ongech says."

 https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/evewoman/article/2001238125/why-is-menstruation-important

The point in this absurdity is, if Allah is a perfect designer there shouldn't be a design that has flaws and also give rules about it.

A woman in her period cannot pray, fast, touch some sacred things because Allah said it's impure or whatever reason it's, if Allah is all knowing and knows everything such thing as menstruation shouldn't exist since it's impure to sacred things.

usermane:
No ideology or belief is perfect in the real world. Everything is flawed on some level. I have written on the faults of atheism in the past, please see my debate with atheists in the following thread; https://www.nairaland.com/4955950/atheism-foolishness/3#74852487

But there are questions with theism that all the sages of Islam, Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism can only answer with "God knows best". "God knows best" is an euphemism for "It doesn't matter, forget about it." But these questions matter because their subjects affect our lives daily.

"But I will not philosophize, since philosophy is naught but a suit of garments for the decoration of a dummy figure.

Remember, philosophy is an argument; the world, which is your property, is an accumulation of facts." (The Magic Story, Frederic Van Rensselaer Dey)

Apparently, you have deviated further into whatever you wish to call it now from your Quranist ideology, I knew it was just a matter of time, eventually, everyone shall receive in full, wages of their actions...

The line of questioning is a pattern which is peculiar to disbelief, and there is no amount of philosophizing that can satisfy 'the questioner', except that it breeds more questioning and further doubts which eventually leads to more uncertainties about everything!

Knowledge is never fully grasped by any human living or dead, to try and seek answers to everything, and the way you want it to be and mean is akin to being crazy! Applying wisdom to the available knowledge guides in focusing on the right questions and making the right decisions and progress in living a purposeful life. Of course, when you do believe there is God, who is all Knowing and all Wise, you do not doubt this God's knowledge coupled with the Wisdom behind the creation the way it is...Again God in His divine authority, according to Islam, gave permission for man to think, reflect, explore, investigate, query whatever he can, for at the end of the day, the knowledge you would acquire from all these, cannot help you other than submit to the superiority of the Creator, of course that is if you are sincere to begin with. Hence, when all is said and done, there is no shred of doubt with respect to the fact that indeed Allah (SWT) Knows best!

The facts about the reality of this world is what we can all witness. We were never a part of anything as to how the world or the universe should be to question why this or that, or to even claim there are flaws...

So when you talk about the female menstruation, first, this is the way the creator wants it to be, no mistakes! Do you have a problem with it?! Well then, why not start by creating your own world and your own creatures the way you want them to be, or what else does it mean when you claim someone didn't do a good job?! Because you can do better right?! And thus the challenge, do better and let's see!

The most important thing is that Allah (SWT) created this world as a test, so whatever human beings go through, the challenges are indeed part of the test, and the solutions are all within our capacity in this world, whether we understand the reasons why or the wisdom behind them, Allah (SWT) would not ask us about that, but how we made good use of the free gift of being able to choose wisely our own deeds and actions and the intentions behind them! And part of such actions and intentions may include being involved in the course of alleviating the pains women go through rather than looking for reasons to substantiate your disbelief in God!

Yeah, FYI, there is paradise, which happens to be the reward for the tests and challenges, and what is most amusing is that we all seek this place, where everything is just the way we want, just that some want it to be here on earth (which is practically and spiritually impossible), while some of us know that it is indeed in the hereafter!

2. Why Pregnancy symptoms and Pain of Child birth?

Theism can't explain constipation, morning sickness, mood swing or irritability that pregnant women mostly suffer due to their bodies's hormonal shift.

You'll assume that a most intelligent, most merciful creator would design pregnancy with a homeostasis mechanism to account for hormonal changes and prevent these symptoms, but this is not the reality.

Theism also can't explain why the human birth canal is so narrow, why natural birth is painful and sometimes fatal to women. Even after 9 tedious months of carrying their babies, labor can last as much as 18 hours for women.

Again, you'll expect a most intelligent and most merciful creator to design the female anatomy to accommodate labor with more ease and less pain. But this isn't the case.

Here is what Abrahamic scriptures have to say on this;

Torah: Genesis; 3 #16:

To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children.

To add insult to the injury, women after birth are prohibited from salat or fasting for 40 days, not because they need a break, but obviously because they are considered not spiritually pure enough post natal.

Theism want us to embrace all of these as the perfect plan of God, the all intelligent and most merciful. That is why AlBaqr tells us that the 'so called flaws' in man are actually good that we do not know enough of to appreciate yet.

usermane:
Here is what Abrahamic scriptures have to say on this;

To add insult to the injury, women after birth are prohibited from salat or fasting for 40 days, not because they need a break, but obviously because they are considered not spiritually pure enough post natal.

Theism want us to embrace all of these as the perfect plan of God, the all intelligent and most merciful. That is why AlBaqr tells us that the 'so called flaws' in man are actually good that we do not know enough of to appreciate yet.

This is not true! Women after birth are not prohibited from salat or fasting for 40 days "because they need a break"!

They are prohibited from fasting because fasting will not allow them to provide nourishment for their new born baby, but because people were stupid and did "not know enough to appreciate yet", we tell you it is the "perfect plan of God" so you will comply without argument!

Thankfully, you are smarter now, so you would be advised not to fast during salat for the benefit of the nourishment of your new born child!

If you disagree that it is the "perfect plan of God", or you think that the 'Almighty God' is is not "all intelligent and most merciful", have a baby and go and fast and then come and inform us of how much milk your mammary glands produce for your baby who will most definitely cry a lot from being hungry and eventually be stunted in growth, if it does not die first, that is!

The Almighty God is most definitely most intelligent and most merciful and most wise or many would just be adding insult to their own injury by killing themselves with their own hands and their own ignorance!

usermane:


But there are questions with theism that all the sages of Islam, Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism can only answer with "God knows best". "God knows best" is an euphemism for "It doesn't matter, forget about it." But these questions matter because their subjects affect our lives daily.

Indeed, "these questions matter because their subjects affect our lives daily", but we do not say "God knows best" as an "euphemism for "It doesn't matter, forget about it"".

Rather, "God knows best", is an euphemism for "my knowledge is limited because I am ignorant and I don't fully understand so I will just accept what God says because, God knows best".

If these "questions" did not "matter because their subjects affect our lives daily", the Almighty God would not have bothered to inform me how to deal with them!

usermane:


Not only this, menstruation cannot be withheld voluntarily, as urination. It cannot simply be wiped off, as sweating, because it continues for days. It is often painful, distressing and inconvenient for women.

Well, if you cannot avoid making a mess in the mosque with your menses, which was more likely the case when this law was passed, please don't come and mess up the mosque and disturb the prayers with it!

Note that today you are wise enough to use a pad or tampon so we do not place menstruation police at the door to the mosque to turn you away, and if you do come whilst menstruating and if you don't make a mess, we would hardly know you are menstruating.

usermane:
2. Why Pregnancy symptoms and Pain of Child birth?

Theism can't explain constipation, morning sickness, mood swing or irritability that pregnant women mostly suffer due to their bodies's hormonal shift.

You'll assume that a most intelligent, most merciful creator would design pregnancy with a homeostasis mechanism to account for hormonal changes and prevent these symptoms, but this is not the reality.

The pain will not kill you. Women will even inform you that it makes them appreciate the giving birth, but that's not why you have pain. The pain is like a restriction. If you did not have pain, you might be giving birth way too early, like at the age of 12 because it will be so easy to do so.

The pain at 12 is like you died, and it reduces the more mature you become. But so you wait till you are more mature and have accumulated enough resources and wisdom to nourish a life we give you pain to stop you having a child too early so you appreciate and are able to nourish that new life when it arrives. The Almighty God is most Merciful and Wise, and you humans after all, do not appreciate that which comes easy to you!

budaatum, are you now a Muslim or are you being sarcastic?

tintingz:
budaatum, are you now a Muslim or are you being sarcastic?

I am very clearly not being sarcastic, which is juvenile at its worst. I am in fact, furious at the misrepresentations!

And I am now a theist, or shall I say, somewhat of a theist, as in, a person who attempts to understand theology. Some light is shed on me here.

budaatum:

I am very clearly not being sarcastic, which is juvenile at its worst. I am in fact, furious at the misrepresentations!

Ok, but I don't think there is misinterpretation here.

Menstruation in Islam is seen as impure, one who's menstruating cannot partake in sacred things or touch anything sacred, if this is so why then Allah made women to menstruate, are there no other options for him?, if Allah is perfect and all knowing things that cannot be associated to his sacredness should not exist, if he doesn't like it.

You can't be all perfect, all-knowing and create something and then give it rules on what you hate, it's like you're trying to correct your mistakes or control it. Is God not aware of the things he's about to create long before creation?

And I am now a theist, or shall I say, somewhat of a theist, as in, a person who attempts to understand theology. Some light is shed on me here.

Good, you now subscribe to the Christian deity and it dogmas?

tintingz:
Ok, but I don't think there is misinterpretation here.

Menstruation in Islam is seen as impure.....

"Seen" "in Islam" as "impure" by whom exactly? By the adherents of Islam, or by Allah who is referred to as "Most Intelligent, Most Merciful and Most Wise" and who is said to have created perfect woman with this menstruation that you, and "Islam" as you say, are claiming is "impure"?

tintingz:
Good, you now subscribe to the Christian deity and it dogmas?

Hmm. You did this with Allah and Islam above and I have responded above. I hope the distinction does not go over your head, and that you'd also desist from it.

Where did you get the idea that buda subscribed to "the Christian deity and its dogmas"? Wouldn't it be wiser for you to enquire what "deity and dogmas" I might subscribe to instead of creating false images in your head. (And I say this despite the question mark you tagged on at the end because I know you to be wiser than this and would like you to consider that I also just might have a brain!)

This thread might inform you of the deity or part of the dogma I might subscribe to and I am open to questions.

budaatum:

"Seen" "in Islam" as "impure" by whom exactly? By the adherents of Islam, or by Allah who is referred to as "Most Intelligent, Most Merciful and Most Wise" and who is said to have created perfect woman with this menstruation that you, and "Islam" as you say, are claiming is "impure"?

Allah the "most intelligent, most merciful, most wise" said menstruation is "harmful or impure" in (Quran 2:222). Can you tell us why an intelligent all-knowing God will made something impure or harmful exist in his creation, any logical reasons?

He knows menstruation will be harmful and impure before creation yet he made it exist, is this the definition of a merciful, intelligent, wise and all-knowing God?

Hmm. You did this with Allah and Islam above and I have responded above. I hope the distinction does not go over your head, and that you'd also desist from it.

I simply take Allah's words in the Qur'an as it was written as reference to my argument, I don't care about people's interpretations, it's meaningless.

Where did you get the idea that buda subscribed to "the Christian deity and its dogmas"? Wouldn't it be wiser for you to enquire what "deity and dogmas" I might subscribe to instead of creating false images in your head. (And I say this despite the question mark you tagged on at the end because I know you to be wiser than this and would like you to consider that I also just might have a brain!)

This thread might inform you of the deity or part of the dogma I might subscribe to and I am open to questions.

I'm not making an assertion here, I simply asked a question in my previous post.

I'm confused on your claims in that thread, can you just give a straight forward answer here, do you subscribe to the Christian deity and dogmas?

tintingz:
Allah the "most intelligent, most merciful, most wise" said menstruation is "harmful or impure" in (Quran 2:222).

One of my "dogmas", so to speak, is not to bear false witness. Just so you know.

Below is the text you mentioned.

And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves."

From the above, can you in all honesty, claim "Allah the "most intelligent, most merciful, most wise" said"?

Is it not more accurate to say, "it is written that the Angel Gabriel said to the Prophet Mohammed ṣallā Allāhu ʿalayhi wa-ʿala āli-hi wa-sallam, who wrote down what he was told and you now read"?

Where then did you get "Allah the "most intelligent, most merciful, most wise said", when that "Allah the "most intelligent, most merciful, most wise" did not even say any such thing to he whom we say ṣallā Allāhu ʿalayhi wa-ʿala āli-hi wa-sallam?

Now, that aside. You yourself said you "simply take Allah's words in the Qur'an". And while I could go on and argue with you that that is not true, and claim that what you do is, 'take what the Prophet wrote down as given to him by the Angel of God and which you now read in the Qur'an', still, the Surah you "simply took" does not say "menstruation is "harmful or impure""! Or does it and I misunderstand? Which makes me want to say, perhaps you truly, "don't care about people's interpretations, it's meaningless", but you seem to appear to be quick to place much value in your own interpretation which you assume means what you understand to be written! Or does the Surah you quoted not say, or mean, if you'd have it, "simply" that, "you should not have sex with a woman while she is menstruating", tintingz?

You then ask the strawman question if I "Can tell you why an intelligent all-knowing God will make something impure or harmful exist in his creation, any logical reasons?" To wit, the answer is no intelligent all-knowing God made anything impure or harmful exist in his creation! Menstruation is after all not "harmful and impure". And if you had trully bothered to "simply take Allah's words in the Qur'an" as you say you do, you would have taken the simple word "Say", as it appears in the Surah, and understood that the Surah you mentioned was what the Prophet was told to tell you if you asked about menstruation, and whatever the real reason might have been was not even divulged to the Prophet himself! That said, I can sort of give you a reason, from my own understanding though, so be warned.

First, sex with a menstruating woman is inconsiderate of you. The poor woman is bleeding and likely in pain and all you're thinking of is screwing her! It makes you sound selfish! Then there's the issue of it being pointless, she's after all not going to get pregnant. And it's messy. That's three, what I'd consider, good enough reasons for you to not have sex with a menstruating woman and consider it to be "harmful" and "unpurified", if you are not considerate enough not to, don't you think?

tintingz:
I'm confused on your claims in that thread, can you just give a straight forward answer here, do you subscribe to the Christian deity and dogmas?

I do apologise for your confusion tintingz, you will have to find it in you to forgive me because we are discussing a very complex Quran here and if you find common ordinary me confusing how much moreso should it be expected that you would find the Quran confusing?

Be that as it is, the deity I subscribe to is called God, the same God that some call Allah, amongst God's numerous other names - there is after all no other God but God regardless the name one choses. And my "dogma", if that's what you wish to call it, is in my signature, though do not expect me to be dogmatic since I try not to be.

I know you asked for straight forward, but you should not expect straightforward at this rather complex and advanced level.

budaatum:

One of my "dogmas", so to speak, is not to bear false witness. Just so you know.

Below is the text you mentioned.

And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves."

From the above, can you in all honesty, claim "Allah the "most intelligent, most merciful, most wise" said"?

Is it not more accurate to say, "it is written that the Angel Gabriel said to the Prophet Mohammed ṣallā Allāhu ʿalayhi wa-ʿala āli-hi wa-sallam, who wrote down what he was told and you now read"?

Where then did you get "Allah the "most intelligent, most merciful, most wise said", when that "Allah the "most intelligent, most merciful, most wise" did not even say any such thing to he whom we say ṣallā Allāhu ʿalayhi wa-ʿala āli-hi wa-sallam?

Now, that aside. You yourself said you "simply take Allah's words in the Qur'an". And while I could go on and argue with you that that is not true, and claim that what you do is, 'take what the Prophet wrote down as given to him by the Angel of God and which you now read in the Qur'an', still, the Surah you "simply took" does not say "menstruation is "harmful or impure""! Or does it and I misunderstand? Which makes me want to say, perhaps you truly, "don't care about people's interpretations, it's meaningless", but you seem to appear to be quick to place much value in your own interpretation which you assume means what you understand to be written! Or does the Surah you quoted not say, or mean, if you'd have it, "simply" that, "you should not have sex with a woman while she is menstruating", tintingz?

You then ask the strawman question if I "Can tell you why an intelligent all-knowing God will make something impure or harmful exist in his creation, any logical reasons?" To wit, the answer is no intelligent all-knowing God made anything impure or harmful exist in his creation! Menstruation is after all not "harmful and impure". And if you had trully bothered to "simply take Allah's words in the Qur'an" as you say you do, you would have taken the simple word "Say", as it appears in the Surah, and understood that the Surah you mentioned was what the Prophet was told to tell you if you asked about menstruation, and whatever the real reason might have been was not even divulged to the Prophet himself! That said, I can sort of give you a reason, from my own understanding though, so be warned.

First, sex with a menstruating woman is inconsiderate of you. The poor woman is bleeding and likely in pain and all you're thinking of is screwing her! It makes you sound selfish! Then there's the issue of it being pointless, she's after all not going to get pregnant. And it's messy. That's three, what I'd consider, good enough reasons for you to not have sex with a menstruating woman and consider it to be "harmful" and "unpurified", if you are not considerate enough not to, don't you think?

Allah said in Quran,

And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves. (Quran 2:222)

- Do you believe the Quran is the word of God?

- When something is said to be harmful and impure, what does it mean?

- Again and I will ask, does Allah the most intelligent and all-knowing knew menstruation will be harmful and impure long before creation, if yes, why made it exist?

I do apologise for your confusion tintingz, you will have to find it in you to forgive me because we are discussing a very complex Quran here and if you find common ordinary me confusing how much moreso should it be expected that you would find the Quran confusing?

There's nothing very complex about the Quran, you're the one assuming it to be complex.

In the thread you claim you don't believe in Jesus(correct me if I'm wrong) but you're quoting his words up and down like you also believe in him, are you like Thomas Jefferson, are you a Christian deist?

Be that as it is, the deity I subscribe to is called God, the same God that some call Allah, amongst God's numerous other names - there is after all no other God but God regardless the name one choses. And my "dogma", if that's what you wish to call it, is in my signature, though do not expect me to be dogmatic since I try not to be.

I know you asked for straight forward, but you should not expect straightforward at this rather complex and advanced level.

Ok, you subscribe to God, can you tell us the concept of your God?

tintingz:
Allah said in Quran,

I insist that it is written that the Angel Gabriel said to the Prophet Mohammed ṣallā Allāhu ʿalayhi wa-ʿala āli-hi wa-sallam, who wrote down what he was told and we now read.

tintingz:

And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves. (Quran 2:222)

- Do you believe the Quran is the word of God?

I do not believe anything if I can help it. I'd rather chose to know than believe whatever crap I decide to create in my head. The Quran is about God though and that would do for me.

tintingz:
- When something is said to be harmful and impure, what does it mean?

It means something is harmful and impure and that I should be advised to stay away from it, like I am advised to stay away from having intercourse with a menstruating woman or that men should just let me be if I am menstruating.

Personally, I'm glad that men were sent this message! You know what pigs they can be like, demanding sex even when the woman is not in the mood!

tintingz:
- Again and I will ask, does Allah the most intelligent and all-knowing knew menstruation will be harmful and impure long before creation, if yes, why made it exist?

Sorry, but you are going to have to go up the mountain with Moses and Aaron and the 70 et al and ask Allah why menstruation exists, yourself or you can check in any good science textbook. I, buda, do not speak for Allah.

tintingz:
There's nothing very complex about the Quran, you're the one assuming it to be complex.

Ok. But how what you refer to as "the Word of God" would be simple and not complex does amuse the hell out of me.

tintingz:
In the thread you claim you don't believe in Jesus(correct me if I'm wrong) but you're quoting his words up and down like you also believe in him, are you like Thomas Jefferson, are you a Christian deist?

I guess I am going to do the rain thing again, so here goes.

When rain is pissing down on my head and I am wet and I am cold, I do not stand there believing or disbelieving whether it is rain that is falling on my head making me cold and wet, I check if it is rain that is falling on my head and making me cold and wet, and once I find out the answer, I do not believe or disbelieve what I have found out because I now know what is falling on my head and making me cold and wet.

No, I do not believe in Jesus Christ because I have bothered to check if what he taught was true and now that I have checked, I know.

tintingz:
Ok, you subscribe to God, can you tell us the concept of your God?

"Subscribe to God"? What does that mean exactly?

If you mean "do I worship God", then the answer is I try to worship God by doing God's will, which to me is, love my neighbours, and do unto others as I will have them do unto me (with a caveat), to forgive those who trespasses against me so that my trespasses can be forgiven, to feed the poor and to “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth and subdue it. To rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” ^Ref

I say try, because it might be the case that while I might think I might be worshipping God, God might disagree.

As to the "concept of my God". My God is not a concept. And I do not make concepts or images of my God for fear that I might inadvertently bow down and worship images that I create in my head.

sino:


"But I will not philosophize, since philosophy is naught but a suit of garments for the decoration of a dummy figure.

Remember, philosophy is an argument; the world, which is your property, is an accumulation of facts." (The Magic Story, Frederic Van Rensselaer Dey)

Apparently, you have deviated further into whatever you wish to call it now from your Quranist ideology, I knew it was just a matter of time, eventually, everyone shall receive in full, wages of their actions...

The line of questioning is a pattern which is peculiar to disbelief, and there is no amount of philosophizing that can satisfy 'the questioner', except that it breeds more questioning and further doubts which eventually leads to more uncertainties about everything!

Knowledge is never fully grasped by any human living or dead, to try and seek answers to everything, and the way you want it to be and mean is akin to being crazy! Applying wisdom to the available knowledge guides in focusing on the right questions and making the right decisions and progress in living a purposeful life. Of course, when you do believe there is God, who is all Knowing and all Wise, you do not doubt this God's knowledge coupled with the Wisdom behind the creation the way it is...Again God in His divine authority, according to Islam, gave permission for man to think, reflect, explore, investigate, query whatever he can, for at the end of the day, the knowledge you would acquire from all these, cannot help you other than submit to the superiority of the Creator, of course that is if you are sincere to begin with. Hence, when all is said and done, there is no shred of doubt with respect to the fact that indeed Allah (SWT) Knows best!

The facts about the reality of this world is what we can all witness. We were never a part of anything as to how the world or the universe should be to question why this or that, or to even claim there are flaws...

So when you talk about the female menstruation, first, this is the way the creator wants it to be, no mistakes! Do you have a problem with it?! Well then, why not start by creating your own world and your own creatures the way you want them to be, or what else does it mean when you claim someone didn't do a good job?! Because you can do better right?! And thus the challenge, do better and let's see!

The most important thing is that Allah (SWT) created this world as a test, so whatever human beings go through, the challenges are indeed part of the test, and the solutions are all within our capacity in this world, whether we understand the reasons why or the wisdom behind them, Allah (SWT) would not ask us about that, but how we made good use of the free gift of being able to choose wisely our own deeds and actions and the intentions behind them! And part of such actions and intentions may include being involved in the course of alleviating the pains women go through rather than looking for reasons to substantiate your disbelief in God!

Yeah, FYI, there is paradise, which happens to be the reward for the tests and challenges, and what is most amusing is that we all seek this place, where everything is just the way we want, just that some want it to be here on earth (which is practically and spiritually impossible), while some of us know that it is indeed in the hereafter!

Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant as always.
Ustaz, please do I have your permission to use some lines in this post?

budaatum:
I insist that it is written that the Angel Gabriel said to the Prophet Mohammed ṣallā Allāhu ʿalayhi wa-ʿala āli-hi wa-sallam, who wrote down what he was told and we now read.

Angel Gabriel is the mouthpiece of Allah. Whatever Angel Gabriel said is from Allah and whatever Muhammad said is from Allah.

I do not believe anything if I can help it. I'd rather chose to know than believe whatever crap I decide to create in my head. The Quran is about God though and that would do for me.

The Quran is also about God's commandments, rules, what he likes and hate, fairytales and myths.

It means something is harmful and impure and that I should be advised to stay away from it, like I am advised to stay away from having intercourse with a menstruating woman or that men should just let me be if I am menstruating.

Personally, I'm glad that men were sent this message! You know what pigs they can be like, demanding sex even when the woman is not in the mood!

Lol, if God is advising his creation to stay away from their wives because menstruation is harmful and impure, does this mean such God is all-knowing and intelligent? I mean he can do the right thing from onset instead of giving advice, rules and getting angry or you forgot "prevention is better than cure"?, Allah didn't know that, he made mistakes and try to correct them.

A God like that is imperfect, not all-knowing and not all-intelligent.

Sorry, but you are going to have to go up the mountain with Moses and Aaron and the 70 et al and ask Allah why menstruation exists, yourself or you can check in any good science textbook. I, buda, do not speak for Allah.

So you don't know and you're defending Allah. I'm disappointed

Ok. But how what you refer to as "the Word of God" would be simple and not complex does amuse the hell out of me.

The word of God in the Quran is simple and plain, eat is eat, run is run, interpreting to another thing it is meaningless.

I guess I am going to do the rain thing again, so here goes.

When rain is pissing down on my head and I am wet and I am cold, I do not stand there believing or disbelieving whether it is rain that is falling on my head making me cold and wet, I check if it is rain that is falling on my head and making me cold and wet, and once I find out the answer, I do not believe or disbelieve what I have found out because I now know what is falling on my head and making me cold and wet.

Ok, you have evidence of God, yes?

No, I do not believe in Jesus Christ because I have bothered to check if what he taught was true and now that I have checked, I know.

You don't believe in Jesus, Ok.

"Subscribe to God"? What does that mean exactly?

If you mean "do I worship God", then the answer is I try to worship God by doing God's will, which to me is, love my neighbours, and do unto others as I will have them do unto me (with a caveat), to forgive those who trespasses against me so that my trespasses can be forgiven, to feed the poor and to “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth and subdue it. To rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” ^Ref

I say try, because it might be the case that while I might think I might be worshipping God, God might disagree.

As to the "concept of my God". My God is not a concept. And I do not make concepts or images of my God for fear that I might inadvertently bow down and worship images that I create in my head.

If you don't have the concept of God, how did you arrive at the bolded?

AlBaqir:


Your point exactly is what? To defend God or question His design?

If you ever study Islamic Philosophy, you will realized that there are and there can only be two types of existence: Necessity or Independent Existence and Possible/contingent/dependant Existence.

Necessity Existence brings about Possible Existence: meaning the later is in need of the former at all time. Every so-called "flaws" in man's design point to a simple fact that we are mumkin al-wujud (possible or contingent existence). If we are perfect then we can no longer be a dependent or contingent existence. We would be Necessary and independent existence.

This is really eye opening.

tintingz:
Angel Gabriel is the mouthpiece of Allah. Whatever Angel Gabriel said is from Allah and whatever Muhammad said is from Allah.

If you say so. Personally, I'd rather go up the mountain to the organ direct rather than settle for what the organ grinder says. But hey, each to their own.

tintingz:
The Quran is also about God's commandments, rules, what he likes and hate, fairytales and myths.

Again, if you say so. Damn, though. If you know all this why are you asking me to be Allah's mouthpiece?

Hellooo! Go up the mountain to the organ tintingz!

tintingz:
Lol, if God is advising his creation to stay away from their wives because menstruation is harmful and impure, does this mean such God is all-knowing and intelligent? I mean he can do the right thing from onset instead of giving advice or you forget "prevention is better than cure"?, Allah didn't know that, he made mistakes and try to correct them.

Sounds like you refused to go up the mountain to the organ and stayed at the bottom and settled for the organ grinder who told you all this. Were you not satisfied with the response you got? Go on up the mountain to the organ and tell Allah that God made mistakes according to you! When I went up the mountain to the organ itself, I had way more important questions of my own to ask and would hardly be playing errand person for you.

tintingz:
A God like this is imperfect, not all-knowing and not all-intelligent.

Oh. My bad. You must have gone up the wrong mountain or on the wrong day or met the wrong God, the organ grinder perhaps, or God just didn't have the time for you for some reason.

I wonder how many times I'm going to have to keep advising you to go on up the mountain again to the organ this time, and ask God to explain why the God you see there is "imperfect, not all-knowing and not all-intelligent". In fact kick God of God's seat and sit there yourself and you be the God, since you seem to think you can do a much better job of creating women who don't need to menstruate! I'm certain that if you do a good enough job you'd even find those who would bow down and worship you, or you can create you own.

tintingz:
So you don't know and you're defending Allah. I'm disappointed

Please don't accuse me of what I never do! No God gave me the duty of God defender! If God needs defending, God can very well defend God's self and does not need me to defend God! Go on up the mountain to the....... Argh! I give up!

tintingz:
The word of God in the Quran is simple and plain, eat is eat, run is run, interpreting to another thing it is meaningless.

If you say so. Though, to be honest, if it is as "simple and plain" as you say it is, and "eat is eat" and "run is run", why, I wonder, are you struggling so much to comprehend and understanding it so?

tintingz:
Ok, you have evidence of God, yes?

Yep, I have.

tintingz:
You don't believe in Jesus, Ok.

Nope. I don't believe the things that I know.

tintingz:
If you don't have the concept of God, how did you arrive at the bolded?

It's from the Quran, doh. The Quran that you yourself said was "the Word of God". It's still not a "concept of God" though, least not my God of whom no image or concept can be created. Just text in a book. Or did someone tell you the book which you say is "the word of God" is God? Don't be misled. God clearly dislikes images made of God and worshipped by people.


By the way, I see you've shifted this to some sort of "prove God exists" argument, and away from engaging with a text, which you say is "simple and plain", and in which "eat is eat" and "run is run", even though you are obviously struggling so much to comprehend and understanding it so.

Well, sorry, that's not a thing that I do - prove to people whether God exists or not, that is. I've been there see, as I've said, "probably for longer than you've breathed air". But while I was in the state you're in, there was absolutely no way anyone could possible prove to me that God exists! Imagine! God sending me some stupid silly mouth piece organ grinder and not getting of God's ass and coming to prove God itself! I am buda. The buda that God created. And that God knows I will tell that stupid silly mouth piece organ grinder to go fuq itself! "And tell God while it's at it to come prove God to me Godself!" I tell you, I said it often enough. And God must have finally given in because here we are with that same buda aleluyaing and amening and allah akbaring all over Nairaland!

Don't you dare settle for the organ grinder tintingz! Go on up the mountain to the organ yourself! I'm absolutely certain that if God feels the need to prove anything to you God will get off God's ass and do so, and you can tell God then how imperfect and unintelligent God is for supposedly telling you not to screw a menstruating woman if that's what concerns you most. Alternatively, screw away. It's not as if there's some God waiting to turn you into a pillar of salt! Or is there tintingz?


To anyone who wonders, part of this conversation went on over in Would You Prefer A World Where Religion Don't Exist At All?

And yes, this is the same buda who was The Atheist In Islam For Muslims

God is indeed most merciful, most intelligent, most merciful, most wise, most everything I can think of, I have finally discovered.

budaatum:

If you say so. Personally, I'd rather go up the mountain to the organ direct rather than settle for what the organ grinder says. But hey, each to their own.

What mountain are you talking about sef?

Don't forget I was once a believer, I've been in the mountains and I found nothing. So i don't know which mountain you're talking about up and down.

Again, if you say so. Damn, though. If you know all this why are you asking me to be Allah's mouthpiece?

Then why are you defending Allah?

Hellooo! Go up the mountain to the organ tintingz!

Sigh.

Sounds like you refused to go up the mountain to the organ and stayed at the bottom and settled for the organ grinder who told you all this. Were you not satisfied with the response you got? Go on up the mountain to the organ and tell Allah that God made mistakes according to you! When I went up the mountain to the organ itself, I had way more important questions of my own to ask and would hardly be playing errand person for you.


Oh. My bad. You must have gone up the wrong mountain or on the wrong day or met the wrong God, the organ grinder perhaps, or God just didn't have the time for you for some reason.

Can you tell me the right mountain I should go up to?

I wonder how many times I'm going to have to keep advising you to go on up the mountain again to the organ this time, and ask God to explain why the God you see there is "imperfect, not all-knowing and not all-intelligent". In fact kick God of God's seat and sit there yourself and you be the God, since you seem to think you can do a much better job of creating women who don't need to menstruate! I'm certain that if you do a good enough job you'd even find those who would bow down and worship you, or you can create you own.

I'm a human and I don't claim to be perfect, Allah claim he's perfect and all-knowing, we need to question his claims!

And please stop the mountain talk, you're strawmaning, I've been to the mountain, don't bother telling me about mountains, if you have a special mountain you found your God, kindly refer me to this mountain instead of shouting go up to the mountain up and down as if you have it in your backyard.

Please don't accuse me of what I never do! No God gave me the duty of God defender! If God needs defending, God can very well defend God's self and does not need me to defend God! Go on up the mountain to the....... Argh! I give up!

You're defending God oga. Mr defender of God,

If you say so. Though, to be honest, if it is as "simple and plain" as you say it is, and "eat is eat" and "run is run", why, I wonder, are you struggling so much to comprehend and understanding it so?

You're the one interpreting the mensturation passage to another thing.

Yep, I have.

What's the evidence of God?

Nope. I don't believe the things that I know.

Ok

It's from the Quran, doh. The Quran that you yourself said was "the Word of God". It's still not a "concept of God" though, least not my God of whom no image or concept can be created. Just text in a book. Or did someone tell you the book which you say is "the word of God" is God? Don't be misled. God clearly dislikes images made of God and worshipped by people.

To Muslims the Quran is the reflection of God, it's where they get the concept of their God from.

You claim to follow the will of God, where did you get this will of God from, did God personally spoke to you about his will?

By the way, I see you've shifted this to some sort of "prove God exists" argument, and away from engaging with a text, which you say is "simple and plain", and in which "eat is eat" and "run is run", even though you are obviously struggling so much to comprehend and understanding it so.

Well, sorry, that's not a thing that I do - prove to people whether God exists or not, that is. I've been there see, as I've said, "probably for longer than you've breathed air". But while I was in the state you're in, there was absolutely no way anyone could possible prove to me that God exists! Imagine! God sending me some stupid silly mouth piece organ grinder and not getting of God's ass and coming to prove God itself! I am buda. The buda that God created. And that God knows I will tell that stupid silly mouth piece organ grinder to go fuq itself! "And tell God while it's at it to come prove God to me Godself!" I tell you, I said it often enough. And God must have finally given in because here we are with that same buda aleluyaing and amening and allah akbaring all over Nairaland!

Don't you dare settle for the organ grinder tintingz! Go on up the mountain to the organ yourself! I'm absolutely certain that if God feels the need to prove anything to you God will get off God's ass and do so, and you can tell God then how imperfect and unintelligent God is for supposedly telling you not to screw a menstruating woman if that's what concerns you most. Alternatively, screw away. It's not as if there's some God waiting to turn you into a pillar of salt! Or is there tintingz?


To anyone who wonders, part of this conversation went on over in Would You Prefer A World Where Religion Don't Exist At All?

And yes, this is the same buda who was The Atheist In Islam For Muslims

God is indeed most merciful, most intelligent, most merciful, most wise, most everything I can think of, I have finally discovered.

Oga leave story, present your evidence of your God.