The death of JESUS CHRIST on the cross of calvary has broken all these laws, we are now free, free from the law.

Bari-kade,

Okay. Your looking for a certain exemption about making money. I don't know. That can be kind of confusing.

Technically all Levites made their living from their work in the temple and that would include what they did in the temple on the sabbath, right?

Did they profane the sabbath because of working and getting paid for their work on the sabbath?

Hmmm. That is an interesting question of why they "profaned" it.

Bobbyaf:

Bari_kade reasons the same technical way the jewish leaders would have in the time of Christ. SDA christians operate hospitals and clinics, and our approach to health care is far different to how its normally carried out in the secular world. It is this uniqueness that we bring to the public based on the philosophy of uniting health, education and evengilsim as one ministry, the same manner in which Christ did.

Bobbyaf:

Now how would look if we closed our hospital doors to the public on a sabbath because we are SDAs? How would it look if an SDA doctor in church were to ignore a medical emergency because he is not supposed to navigate from some archaic, geographically based set of rules and stipulations?

Bobbyaf:

How would Jesus have dealt with a situation of this nature if He were here in our generation? Would He have given the same pharasaical advice as Bari_kade?

Bobbyaf:

Bari_kade knows he cannot side step God's words, so he looks for technicalities to promote his arguments.

Bobbyaf:

SDA medical professionals are paid like any other persons who work. To argue that we collect pay for work done on the sabbath is grossly inept, and only shows up deficiencies in such frivalous arguments. If that is how he debates truth he has got something coming.

Bobbyaf:

SDA medical professionals are paid like any other persons who work.

Synthase:

He said somewhere concerning free gift that freely you have received freely you should give so, if the man collect money abeg don't blame him afterall the man no use scholarship pass through medical school.

@Bobbyaf,


Quote from: Bobbyaf on Yesterday at 05:29:03 AM
SDA medical professionals are paid like any other persons who work.

Hypocrisy would be an understated word to describe your arguments. By that one line, you have rubbished every argument you've had in the past.

So, the SDA get paid - like any other persons who work, right?

Good. So, what happens to every other non-SDAs medical professional who works in other hospitals? What happens to non-SDA engineers who sometimes work on Saturdays and get paid for their work?

And oh, I many times do my shopping on Saturdays and pay the cashiers at the checking-out points for the groceries and other stuff I buy: those cashiers work on Saturdays and get paid!

Footballers get paid as well for their work in professional tournaments which they play work on Saturdays.

And ahh. . . perhaps Nehemiah should not have protested to those men who brought all manner of ware so they could make money and get paid for their work; afterall, you said your own SDA medical professionals "are paid" like ANY OTHER persons who work!!

You're such a laugh! 

Bobbyaf:

Just to avoid a long drawn out discussion with you I will say this much. SDA medical professionals do free work on the sabbath. We do not get paid for acts of mercy on the sabbath. Not once have you ever asked if that were the case have you?

Bobbyaf:

If you have any further questions I'd be more than glad to assist you!

Bobbyaf:

You tell me! They are not the issue. I am addressing medical professionals, not any other type of profession, since medical professionals are the only ones who are given permission to help the sick, or to attend to anyone who needs  on the Lord's day.

Bobbyaf:

All those examples above are irrelevant to the point of discussion. It is never an issue as to what non-SDAs choose to do on Saturdays depending on what they know about the Lord's requirements and commands.

Bobbyaf:

You have not yet dealt with the real issue have you? If Jesus said it is permitted to do good on the sabbath then who are you to think otherwise? Why try to complicate the issue? SDAs don't seem to have a problem following Christ's admonition, so why should you?

Bobbyaf:

What does deliberately breaking the sabbath have to do with what Jesus said about doing good on the sabbath? I really wonder who is the object of laughter here, based on such silly reasoning?

Even at that, you do realize that you have blown your own arguments for the Sabbath, don't you? Asking that people should obey the seventh-day sabbath according the Law is not going to help you. That is why I asked you so many times to clearly state where you derived your law from - GENESIS or EXODUS - and you kept dodging that very question even up until today!!

Your question of "acts of mercy" should not be an excuse for the huge problems you've caused by admitting to the exculpations for making money on the Sabbath day. What is of grave concern to anyone who reads your argument is that, just because people are not SDAs does not mean that you should have accused them to be "Babylon" for worshipping on Sunday. Whether by Biblical history and doctrine of the Word, the SDA got it wrong! And that is what I've demonstrated here.

Bobbyaf:

Listen, I have told you before that the principle of the law of 10 commandments has always existed, both in the Genesis dispensation as well as the Mosaic dispensation, and even in our dispensation, because those principles were meant to be eternal. The only difference is that for the first time it was transcripted on tables of stones when the author Himself wrote them with His own fingers.

Bobbyaf:

Sins committed now, and the those committed then, are still sins, and will always be defined by God's eternal law.

Bobbyaf:

Your accusing me of causing problems is tantamount to accusing Jesus of saying that it is permitted to do good on the sabbath.

Bobbyaf:

He said it not me. I am simply repeating what He admonished in the light of the very same stipulations the jewish leaders brought on the disciples, and Jesus Himself.

Bobbyaf:

Thats why I raised the idea of those stipulations that you're poinying me to in Exudus were meant for those rebellious people who didn't have the spiritual maturity to wait for the very same law that Moses went to collect from God. With their rebellious nature what else did you expect Moses to do, but to initiate stipulations so as to protect what was very important to God.

Bobbyaf:

If you were to go back to my arguments about babylon, you'd have realized that I didn't accuse persons of not being christians. Not once did I accuse person's sincerity about what they were led to believe. I accused them of being apart of a system that is seen as "babylon", or religious confusion, and that God through His end-time church is calling all those that belong to Him to "come out of her" (see Revelation 14 and 16)

Bobbyaf:

This is not my teaching, but God's.

Bobbyaf:

All this was based on the fact of what Jesus Himself said about calling His scattered sheep back to His flock or fold. You as well as I know that there are hundreds of denominations all teaching different doctrines. Besides, you of all persons could never fail to bear in mind what Jesus reminded us of in Matthew 24 about the rise of false prophets and teachers coming in His name.

@Bobbyaf,

I wonder if you're just interested in mere arguments when you have not been able to defend the fallacies of the SDA built around what they cannot keep. You're wasting your time trying to defend a salary scheme wrapped around the SDA excuses for breaking a Law that they pretend they're keeping, but which you have unwittingly exposed as quite to the contrary.

Quote from: Bobbyaf on Today at 10:26:39 AM
Listen, I have told you before that the principle of the law of 10 commandments has always existed, both in the Genesis dispensation as well as the Mosaic dispensation, and even in our dispensation, because those principles were meant to be eternal. The only difference is that for the first time it was transcripted on tables of stones when the author Himself wrote them with His own fingers.


You're the same person who could not find that Law in Genesis; and you're yet the very same person who could not find that Law given to Adam in Genesis! Infact, you are the same person who said that the Sabbath did not exist as a commandment in Genesis; but now, you're coming back to your convoluted statements again.

If you go back to Exodus again, you will find the clear imprints of the sabbath as a LAW! Now, since you argued for the seventh-day sabbath commandment from EXODUS (and not rather from Genesis), then you're expressing an idea based on the Mosaic Law! Doing so requires that you face the stipulations of the same Mosaic Law for the sabbath. Failing to follow the stipulations actually means that you have no sabbath law earlier than Exodus.

Since you cannot find a specific commandment any earlier than EXODUS for the seventh-day sabbath, there's no basis for pretending to uphold the 10 commandments in that book and refusing to adhere to its prescriptions.

Quote from: Bobbyaf on Today at 10:26:39 AM
Sins committed now, and the those committed then,  are still sins, and will always be defined by God's eternal law.

Good. The Law requires that Sabbath breakers be surely put to death - Exo. 31:14 & 35:2. Going to work on the sabbath so that you can make money for your pockets is actually breaking the sabbath. "Do good", Jesus says; but where did he excuse your salaries and getting paid for work done on the Sabbath? If the excuse for the SDA medical staff is just about a convenient exculpation to circumvent the Law, there is no reason for you to accuse anything against non-SDAs.

You are not Jesus Christ; and if you excuse your breaking the Law, don't try hiding under that excuse. Jesus Christ never once referred to God's Law as "ridiculous" - the very thing you have done; and I wonder what he would be saying as He reads your post denouncing God's Law as "archaic"!

Quote from: Bobbyaf on Today at 10:26:39 AM
He said it not me. I am simply repeating what He admonished in the light of the very same stipulations the jewish leaders brought on the disciples, and Jesus Himself.

Jesus Christ did not say anything about excuses the stipulations of the Law. If he ever did, please adduce texts for that. Do not put words in His mouth to justify your fallacies.

Accusing others of being rebellious and yet breaking the Law with your excuses is not demonstrating your obedience to that Law.

I know quite well where we also debated that; and to have alleged that they are Babylon is precisely saying that those Christians are the one accused. You have not shown a good understanding of this subject before making such accusations; and that is wrong!

Quote from: Bobbyaf on Today at 10:26:39 AM
This is not my teaching, but God's.

Appending "God" to your fallacies does not make them correct.

Quote from: Bobbyaf on Today at 10:26:39 AM
All this was based on the fact of what Jesus Himself said about calling His scattered sheep back to His flock or fold. You as well as I know that there are hundreds of denominations all teaching different doctrines. Besides, you of all persons could never fail to bear in mind what Jesus reminded us of in Matthew 24 about the rise of false prophets and teachers coming in His name.

False prophets and false teachers - we know how many of them existed in the history of the SDA. The SDA should not pretend to see herself as that "endtime church"; and to suppose so is to carry this debate to the appropriate thread to discuss the cults.

In all of these discourses so far, you still haven't shown anything to the point that a sabbath Law in Exodus excuses the SDA from breaking it by denouncing it as "ridiculous" and "archaic"!

Bobbyaf:

I see youre still hell bent on being technical and Pharasaical, huh? You are wasting your time trying to make SDAs look bad because we choose to do good on the sabbath. If we had closed our doors you'd be arguing how legalistic we are, right?

Bobbyaf:

You're still confused about the law and its principles. You know that God's law was not in the written form from the beginning. It doesn't take a 6-year old to see that. As a surface reader of the bible you fail to see that the same principles of the 10 commandments as given to Moses on the mount, are the same ones that governed sin and morality in the times of the patriarchs. To make it easier for you let me show you the relationship between law and sin.

Bobbyaf:

Now Bar_kade you cannot go around the plain teachings of God's word. If the law defined sin in previous times it still defines sin in our time. In other words sin has no time barrier. All men from all dispensations were subject to the same shortfalls as us in this dispensation. As far as God is concerned time doesn't change the definition of sin, nor does time change the principles that are built into His laws.

Bobbyaf:

The attempt to argue as to whether God had a 10 commandment law back in the time of the patriarchs is pointless and fruitless.

Bobbyaf:

As I have explained not finding a distinct passage revealing the law does't prove that its principles did not apply to the patriarchs back then. You're not in any psition to gainsay that no matter how hard you try.

Bobbyaf:

First and foremost the sabbath law is not a Mosaic law. It is God's law! It was God who wrote it with His own fingers and delivered it to Moses on Mount Sinai. The sabbath was given to man from the beginning based on what Jesus said in Mark 2:27, 27 And He said to them,“The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Bobbyaf:

The problem you're forever faced with is being able to not confess that Adam was the progenitor of mankind, and has to be apart of that over all plan that God intended for humans to experience through keeping a sanctified day in order to celebrate His creation. That is exactly what the sabbath commandment entails. It gives us a reason as to why we should remember to keep it, and that reason is, God is Creator of heaven and earth.

Bobbyaf:

We are not pretending to uphold it, we are! You too need to uphold them likewise. I can assure no harm will befall you only good.

Bobbyaf:

I notice you never once brought out anything positive in the Mosaic writings concerning the law,

Bobbyaf:

but here is a little something for you:

"And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes [commandments] , for our good always." Deuteronomy 6:24.

You see all along God gave them the law for their own good. If they were obedient they would have recieved the blessings, and if they failed to obey, and they had no reason not to, they would be punished. No one had a reason to disobey especially how they had been a witness to the great undisputable miracles that were wrought by the hands of their God.

Bobbyaf:

God asked Moses a simple question before the 10 commandments were given on Mount Sinai, and this was the question:

Exudus 16:28 "And the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?"

What do you gather from that Bari_kade? Its very simple. God's law is eternal and its principles are not confined to a written code. Although the bible doesn't highlight in a very specific way that the sabbath was known and kept by God's people, there is room to believe it was, based on what other passages have said about the law and the sabbath. Why else would God even speak about "how long refuse ye to keep my laws" if as you are suggesting God had introduced right there and then a sababth law? I am more inclined to think that that phrase suggests that Israel had a long history of not practising God's requirements. They were so steep in Egyptian practises that they had forgotten about their forefather's covenants, and the age-old sabbath law.

Bobbyaf:

By the way please don't tell me that they called upon God because of their faithfulness. They only did so because their backs were against the wall. Listen to God's words as it describes the over all situation with the Hebrews:

Only two of the thousands of Israelites who left Egypt followed God fully and were able to enter the promised land of Canaan. Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt , shall see the land , because they have not wholly followed me: Save Caleb , and Joshua , for they have wholly followed the Lord." Numbers 32:11, 12.

Bobbyaf:

Note the difference! God's law says "remember the sabbath" , but Moses stipulates how the sabbath should be kept based on the circumstances at the time under which the people found themselves.

Bobbyaf:

Israel's spiritual maturity was no where near where God had wanted it to be. They were a rebellious set of people who had grown accustomed to the ways of their Egyptian counterparts, and needed strict stipulations as to proper sabbath observance, until they could operate by faith. Ever wondered why Paul said they missed that rest? Wasn't it because of unbelief?

Bobbyaf:

Why were there stipulations you have never addressed.

Bobbyaf:

YOur attempt to tie SDAs into sabbath stipulations in the exact way it was given then is once again nothing short of frivolity and blindness on your part. You're making a mockery out of God's words.

Bobbyaf:

I pity your ability to read and understand plain English. I never said God's law was archaic. That was meant for the stipulations that seems to have lodged in your cranium somewhere.

Bobbyaf:

We don't need to since there is nothing to show, but if it makes you feel good holding on to those archaic sabbath stipulations, then fine suit yourself

Bobbyaf:

Who is talking about excuses? I am referring to what Jesus said about doing good on the sabbath. Its you who keep harping on how SDAs break the sabbath law when they open their hospitals to help the sick. Its you who keep harping, however in vain, how SDA medical professionals work and collect pay on the sabbath so as to show how hypocritical we are.

Bobbyaf:

The point is firefighters, and emergency workers, and others are all paid anyway whether or not they choose to do good on the sabbath. Let us use the case of a firefighters for example. If a one such worker recieved a call while in a church service, such a member would not have to think twice about responding to such calls, because the SDA church has already made it clear what the requirements are concerning emergency workers.

Bobbyaf:

We know as SDAs that the situation isn't all that perfect in this world. What God had intended for the sabbath and humans is no longer idealistic, becaue of sin, but nonetheless realistic.

Bobbyaf:

Sin has wrought changes and has thwarted God's plan temporarily. While we live under God's permissive will, we must do what we are able to do given the set of circumstances. If we do the best we can do then God will make up for the rest, bu tit doesn't mean we should neglect God's divine commands.

Bobbyaf:

Thats why Jesus was faced with the same problems in His time. The same jewish leaders attempted to make the sabbath look burdensome with rules after rules, most of which, if not all, were traditional.

Bobbyaf:

I don't think calling people from babylon is wrong because God has called His church to do exactly that. Those in the SDA church and those in babylon are all God's children just the same, and God doesn't love SDAs more than they, nor are we better by virtue of what we believe either. You can't knock SDAs for doing what God has commanded. As the remnant we continue what the apostles started. God has raised up the SDA church with a unique message fo rthis time, and that is to be ready and to prepare others for the judgement hour thats presntly taking place.

Bobbyaf:

In the mean time we must warn the world of the anti-Christ which has already established itself, and will soon bring upon this world its mark. We know God's mark or seal to be the sabbath, and we also know the mark of the beast to be Sunday which will be enforced into law sooner than you think. Thats why God says: "Come out of her my people" speaking of babylon or religious confusion.

Bobbyaf:

We are not pretending to see ourselves as such, we are the renmnant.

Bobbyaf:

We don't need to since there is nothing to show, but if it makes you feel good holding on to those archaic sabbath stipulations, then fine suit yourself. Its funny how you're not harping about those stipulations that were appended to adultery, or any other sins that were punishable by death. How come you're not crying out for those who commit adultery to be stoned to death as well? How come you're not crying out for the death of homosexuals based on the Mosaic stipulations concerning any sexual deviances?

Bobbyaf:

AS I have repeatedly said trying to pin SDAs to sabbath stipulations in the way they were meant for a particular experience during the Hebrews sojourn in the wilderness for 40 years, goes contrary to what Jesus said in His teaching of true sabbath observance. You have failed in your attempt to reconcile that reality.

Bobbyaf:

Obviously when the command says "no work" you have taken that to include work in all its forms, What a joke! You're worse than the pharasees maaaan!

@ Bari_Kade

AS I have repeatedly said trying to pin SDAs to sabbath stipulations in the way they were meant for a particular experience during the Hebrews sojourn in the wilderness for 40 years, goes contrary to what Jesus said in His teaching of true sabbath observance. You have failed in your attempt to reconcile that reality.

Obviously when the command says "no work" you have taken that to include work in all its forms, What a joke!   You're worse than the pharasees maaaan!