The Benin Empire seems to be Southern Nigeria's classical empire and this kingdom influenced many people from the Yoruba to the Igbo.

Can someone describe the cultural diffusion of the Benin Empire to other pars of Southern Nigeria? I have always been interested in the Benin Empire, and I want to give them so much credit.

Even the Onye Onicha trace their foundations to settlers from the Benin Empire. Lagos was founded by a Bini expedition. For their small population, the Bini people have a lot to be proud about.

-Proudly Igbo but an admirer of the Benin Empire

EzeUche_:

The Benin Empire seems to be Southern Nigeria's classical empire and this kingdom influenced many people from the Yoruba to the Igbo.

Can someone describe the cultural diffusion of the Benin Empire to other pars of Southern Nigeria? I have always been interested in the Benin Empire, and I want to give them so much credit.

Even the Onye Onicha trace their foundations to settlers from the Benin Empire. Lagos was founded by a Bini expedition. For their small population, the Bini people have a lot to be proud about.

-Proudly Igbo but an admirer of the Benin Empire

the benin and there yoruba neigbhour have cultural ties

the benin version and yoruba version point at oduodua, so lagos was not found by benin people but by both groups who respected and love each other

moreover lagos was not part of the benin empire par say but was just a trading point for slaves and a military post

benin culture is a lovely culture, they discovered bronze( mixing of metals) to make mask and art

I am not going to argue about Lagos. But Eko is its original name. Even the Oba of Lagos traces his roots to the Benin Empire so do not argue with me over that.

Just like Onitsha was founded by Bini settlers.

But I prefer if PhysicsMHD would comment. I like his views on HIS culture.

Lagos was settled at various times by hunters and fishermen from the Àwórì sub-nationality. Originally based in Iseri on the Ògùn River about 20 miles from the island, the initial wave of settlers led by Arómiré ("the one that becomes personable at the sight of a

Lagos rests on the Gulf of Guinea. ()
river", established a presence in Ìddó and Èbúté Métta. Arómiré also grew vegetables, especially pepper, on a site where Iga Ìdúngànràn, the palace or official residence of the Oba of Lagos now stands. Iga Ìdúngànràn is an Àwórì term meaning house on pepper farm. The palace is thus not only an important symbol of the historical traditions of Lagos; its name also helps keep alive the site's association with vegetable farming by Arómiré, the city's first settler.
From these bases the Àwórì settlers moved further south, towards the creeks and the sea. One major reason why they moved was because their increasing population created the need for more space. Another was safety and security. Yorùbáland, of which Lagos was a part, had become embroiled in the long-running wars involving ethnic groups, communities, chiefdoms, kingdoms, and other political units of the time. The island settlements faced war from the Ègbás and the Ìjèbús, both Yorùbá-speaking nationalities. The ancient Benin Empire, in present-day Edo State of Nigeria also invaded the island around the year 1600.

There are conflicting accounts of the latter episode. Some have argued that the Binis actually founded the Lagos monarchy or system of rulership, apparently in the image of Benin's. Ashipa, the first Oba of Lagos, was a Yorùbá chief but not a Lagosian. It is known also that between the sixteenth and nineteenth centuries, the Benin Empire extended as far as Porto-Novo, west of Lagos. The Oba of Benin did appoint viceroys or representatives on the island and approved all appointees to the office of Oba of Lagos. In return, Lagos Obas paid tribute to Oba of Benin in recognition of the latter's superior status. Other historians have insisted that the Oba of Benin waged war on the island for the same reasons wars were then prevalent.

One of these was the desire by reigning monarchs to expand control over weaker, less populous peoples or neighboring communities, kingdoms, and empires. Another reason concerned the new trans-Atlantic slave trade. For those who participated in the trade as middlemen, warfare did provide a quick and sure supply of war captives who could then be sold as slaves and shipped to the New World. By an estimate, some 500,000 people may have been sold as indentured slaves and shipped from Lagos to the Americas and the Carribean, in particular Bahia, Cuba, and St. Helena. Anyway, for Arómiré and early settlers of the island, moving further south away from the mainland towards the sea was a mechanism to escape the wars that ravaged Yorùbáland from the seventeenth century. The wars and the disruptions associated with them were to become a justification for imposing British colonial control first on the island and later on what is now Nigeria.

From the mid-nineteenth century, freed Yorùbá slaves started returning to Lagos in waves first from Brazil and then from Sierra Leone. In 1847, Oba Kòsókó of Lagos sent his close friend and adviser Chief Oshòdì Tápà to South America to invite slaves with Yorùbá ancestry to return home. The trip yielded results in 1851 when 130 expatriates arrived in Lagos. By 1861 when Lagos formally became a British colony, the number of returnees had risen to about 3,000. The Brazilian expatriates brought with them skills in masonry, carpentry, and tailoring, a strong Catholic faith, and extensive Portuguese cultural traits.

Sierra Leonean expatriates, or Saros, mainly of Ègbá origins in present-day Abéòkúta in Ògùn State of Nigeria, started returning to Lagos in trickles about 1838. The reigning Oba Kòsókó did very little to make them feel welcome, so it was not until 1852 after Oba Kòsókó had been deposed by the British and replaced by Oba Akíntóyè, that Saros returned to Lagos in large numbers. They numbered about 2,500 by 1861 and were granted land in a district on the island still known as Saro Town.
http://www.city-data.com/world-cities/Lagos-History.html

EzeUche_:

I am not going to argue about Lagos. But Eko is its original name. [b]Even the Oba of Lagos traces his roots to the Benin Empir[/b]e so do not argue with me over that.

Just like Onitsha was founded by Bini settlers.

But I prefer if PhysicsMHD would comment. I like his views on HIS culture.

you must me drunk to say that

The Origin of Eko (Lagos)

There is a lot of traditional history at both Benin and Lagos ends relating to the origin of what is now Lagos, its ruler and it's connection with Benin. But perhaps to avoid inadequacies and controversy which the academics claim surrounds traditional history, we may like to hear what some modern historians have to say on this subject. Robert S. Smith, in his book of some principal Yoruba owns, especially in and around Oyo, and the westward expansion in the 17th century of Benin Kingdom with it's number of subject towns on or near to the coast, which included Lagos, went on to say this about Lagos in particular:

"It's name reflect it's past to the Yoruba it's Eko, deriving probably from the farm (Oko) of the earliest settlers, though alternatively-or additionally-it may be the Benin word (Eko) for a war-camp, We say Eko is a Benin word that means camp"

After describing the activities of the armies of Benin under Oba Orhogbua, culminating in his arrival at what is now Lagos, Smith went on to add:

"Sometime later the Oba appointed a ruler for Lagos to represent the interest of Benin and to forward tribute there. The man chosen is named in both Lagos and Benin Tradition as Ashipa"

Smith says that by Lagos account this Ashipa was an Isheri Chief, while the Benin account says Ashipa was a grandson of the Oba of Benin. We shall come to this later. Smith was, however, satisfied that Benin had established it's ascendency in Lagos and had founded a dynasty there at some period before 1700.The dyansty's dependence on Benin, Smith found, was emphasized by the appointment of another Chief, the Eletu Odibo, who alone had the right to crown the Oba and who in early times probably maintained close connection with Benin,.(Eletu Odibo is a corruption of the Edo equivalent Olotu Odibo)

"G.T. Stride and C. Ifeka, in their book titled Peoples and empires pf West Africa have this to say on the same subject:

Oba Orhogbua was clearly a strong warrior for he enforced tribute payments from all parts of the empire and in the middle 1550s conquered all the coastal lands up to Lagos where he left a permanent garrison. Tradition in Lagos says that their first Oba, the Eleko of Eko, was a son of the Oba Orhogbua of Benin"

It will be seen, therefore, that even if we were to disregard traditional history there is enough material from modern historians to confirm the fact that what is now Lagos was founded by an Oba of Benin who also gave it it's first ruler. But we really cannot disregard traditional history. In Benin tradition, and we believe the same of Yoruba and other ethnic groups in this country, one way to establish that an event in traditional history did occur is by the type of anecdote or adage that evolves from that event . Thus, for instance, We Edo people say that "Orhogbua gb'Olague,ona y'ukpe abekpen z'umwen rie Edo, meaning that Oba Orhogbua defeated Olague and used sword to bring his salt to Benin, This is in allusion of to the exploits of Oba Orhogbua while in his camp (Eko) from where he over-ran the place known as Mahin with it's ruler whom the Benin People nicknamed Olague. There Orhogbua discovered the common rock salt and brought it to Benin who thereby tasted it for the first time.

Now the name "Ashipa has featured quite prominently (and rightly too) in the history of Lagos. After the Oba Orhogbua returned to Benin from Eko, he appointed a commander or an administrator, who was called Aisikpa to look after the skeleton troop left in the camp(Eko) until he returned again from Benin. He could no longer return having seen the situation at home. The name "Aisikpahienvoborre" which means "people do not desert their home-land. "This is how Aisikpa, whom the Yoruba now call Ashipa, came into the Lagos (Eko) history. Eko is still there as the traditional Benin name for Lagos; Ashipa has been retained as a senior traditional chieftaincy title while his descendants now retain the modern name of Oba of Lagos. The interaction of Edo people with others in distant lands must have inevitably resulted in cultural exchanges.


Excerpts From a Lecture on the Evolution of Traditional
rulership in Nigeria given under the auspices of the University of
Ibadan, Institute of African studies on 11th September,1984 by Omo
N'Oba N'Edo Uku Akpolokpolo Oba Erediauwa.

http://www.edo-nation.net/eko.htm


Ashipa (1600–1630) died on the way back to Benin (edo)
King Ado (1630–1669) first King of Lagos (edo)
King Gabaro (1669–1704)(edo)
King Akinsemoyin (1704–1749) (edo/yoruba)
Eletu Kekere (1749) (edo)
King Ologun Kutere (1749–1775) (edo)
Adele Ajosun (1775-1780 & 1832-1834) (yoruba) i even know this man's decendant
Eshilokun (1780–1819) (yoruba)
Oba Idewu Ojulari (1819–1832) (yoruba)
King Oluwole (1836–1841) (yoruba)
King Akintoye (1841-1845 & 1851-1853)(yoruba)
Oba Kosoko (1845–1851) (yoruba) i also know this man desendant
King Dosunmu [Docemo] (1853–1885) (yoruba) i know his desendant
Oba Oyekan (1885–1900) (yoruba)
Oba Esugbayi Eleko (1901-1925 & 1932)
Oba Ibikunle Akitoye (1925–1928) yoruba
Oba Sanusi Olusi (1928–1931) yoruba
Oba Falolu (1932–1949)yoruba
Oba Adeniji Adele (1949–1964) yoruba
Oba Adeyinka Oyekan II (1965–2003) yoruba
Oba Rilwan Akiolu (2003–present) yoruba

those that yoruba go call the edo if they will not slap your face

Oba ADO [Edo] 1630/1669, son of Esikpa (Prince of Binin of Eweka Dynasty), 1st Eleko of Eko.

Oba GABARO [Guobaro] (brother) 1669/1704

Oba AKINSEMOYIN 1704/1749

HRH Princess Eletu Kekere 1749/1750

Oba OLOGUN KUTERE 1750/1775, married and had issue.
Oba AJOSUN ADELE I (qv)
Oba ESHINLOKUN (qv)
Oba AKITOYE (qv)
Prince Ogunye, married and had issue.
Prince Ajose Imiekun, married and had issue.
Prince Emmanuel Esugbayi Ajose, married and had issue.
Professor Prince Oladele Ajose, of the Ologun-Kutere Ruling House, contestant for the throne in 1964, married and had issue.
Ambassador Audrie Ajose
Prince Omoyele Arinola Ajose, married and had issue.
Prince Omooba Ajose
Prince Michale Omoyele Ajose, of the Ologun-Kutere Ruling House, born late 1940's, educated at the Holy Ghost School, St. Gregory's College, before proceeding to the United Kingdom and the United States of America, attaining a degree in Applied Economics and a Masters in Business Administration respectively, married to a Princess of the Akinsemoyin Royal House.

Oba AJOSUN ADELE I 1775/1780 and 1832/1834 or 1811/1821 and 1835/1837 (#1p.5), married and had issue.
Oba OLUWOLE (by Tinubu) (qv)

Oba ESHINLOKUN 1780/1819 or 1821/1833, married and had issue.
Oba IDEWU OJULARI (qv)
Oba KOSOKO (qv)

Oba IDEWU OJULARI 1819/1832 or 1833/1835

Oba OLUWOLE 1834/1841 or 1835/1841

Oba AKITOYE 1841/1845 and 1851/1853, died 3rd September 1853.

Oba KOSOKO 1845/1851 (deposed), ancestor of Pr. Adebola Disu-Ige (1936-), and Prince Dele Idris Kosoko. He died after 1863.
Omo Oba Meshimo Kosoko, eldest son of Oba Kosoko, ancestor of the Meshimo family, married and had issue.
Prince Youssuf Meshimo, married and had issue.
Prince Sikiru Alade Kosoko
Prince Muftau Moyosore Atanda Meshimo-Kosoko, married and had issue.
Prince Abdul Morakinyo Adekunle Kosoko, married and had issue.
Princess Maryam Elizabeth Fadekunbi Kosoko
Prince Tara Morayo Adewale Kosoko
Princess Faroukat Fadekunbi Kosoko, married and had issue.
Farouk Adetunji Kosoko
Prince Mouyeddin Mobolaji Kosoko
Prince Mohammed Moradeyo Kosoko
Omo Oba Olojo Kosoko, second son, ancestor of the Olojo family.

Oba DOSUNMU [Docemo] 1853/1885, had issue. He died 26th February 1885.
Prince Akitoye Dosunmu, married and had issue.
Prince Yekini Dosunmu, married and had issue.
Prince Hakim Dosunmu, resident and Business man in Washington DC.
Prince Rasheed Dosunmu, former Deputy Director Nigerian Customs, Principal Secretary (retd.) of Chieftancy Affairs under President Shagari, married and has issue.
Prince Aramide Odumosu
Prince Razak Adewale Dosunmu, an Inventor and Business man with four US patented products, married and has issue.
Grant Dosunmu
Raliat Dosunmu
Prince Fatai Dosunmu, an Architect in Washington DC, married and has issue.
Taiwo Dosunmu
Kehinde Dosunmu
Prince Olabisi Dosunmu
Prince Kolawole Dosunmu, Business man in London, England, married and has issue.
Nicholas Dosunmu
Lolade Dosunmu
Prince Ayesoro Dosunmu, Business man, resided in Benin Republic, married and had issue.
Muba Dosunmu
Afisu Dosunmu
Abinbola Dosunmu
Unknown (4 or 5 generations), had issue.
Princess Abimbola Dosunmu-Shitta, 1st Erelu Oba of Saki Town in Oyo State 1999/-, 1st Yeye Omobalufon of Lagos. Patrilineage is the Ifaro line of King Dosunmu and the matrilineage is the Ado ruling house of Saki.

Oba OYEKAN I 1885/1900, married and had issue. He died 30th September 1900.
Prince Kushanu Abiola Oyekan, married and had issue.
HRH Oba ADEYINKA AKINOLA OYEKAN II (qv)

Oba ESHUGBAYI ELEEKO 1900/1925 and 1931/1932

Oba IBINKUNLE AKITOYE 1925/1928

Oba SANUNSI OLUSI 1928/1931

Oba FALOLU DOSUNMU 1932/1949, died 3rd September 1949.

HH Sir Oba MUSENDIKU BURAIMOH ADENIJI-ADELE II 1949/1964, born 13th November 1893, married and had issue. He died 12th July 1964.
Prince Dr. Gbadebo Adeniji-Adele, married and had issue.
Prince Babatunde Omogbolahan Adeniji-Adele, presently based in the U.K.
Prince Ademola Adeniji-Adele fl.1995
Prince Adelani Adeniji-Adele, married and has issue.
Prince Adewale Adeniji-Adele
Prince Oyekan Adeniji-Adele
Prince Sultan Ladega Adeniji-Adele, a University of Lagos trained Mathematician.
Princess Nanny Adeniji-Adele

HRH Oba ADEYINKA AKINOLA OYEKAN II 1964/2003, installed February 1965, belongs to Dosunmu lineage, born on 30th June 1911, educated at Methodist Boys' High School, Lagos, Eko Boys’ High School, Lagos and Kings' College, Lagos, before he moved to the School of Pharmacy, Yaba College, from where he qualified as a pharmacist in 1933. It was this profession he was practising up till 1965, when he ascended the throne to become the 18th monarch of Lagos. He was permanent chairman of the Lagos State Council of Obas and Chiefs, appointed chancellor, Federal University of Agriculture, Makurdi in 1991, married and had issue. He died 7th March 2003.
Princess Kofoworola Jinadu (née Oyekan)
Princess Adepeju Oyekan
Prince Obalade Oyekan, born 15th October 1955.
Princess Abioye Oyekan
Prince Kolawole Oyekan, Aremo of Lagos.
Princess Remilekun Olajumoke (née Oyekan)
Oba Mobadenle Obalade Oyekan ESIMIKAN II, Onilado of Ilado 1996/-
Prince Isiola Famokun Oyekan, born 8th November 1958.
Prince Ademiju Adekinte Oyekan
Prince Adeyinka Abiola Oyekan
Princess Olori Adefunke Elegushi (née Oyekan)
Princess Toluwalade Alalade (née Oyekan)
Chief Ayodele Oyekan, Bajulaiye of Lagos, installed 12th August 2001.
Prince Adediran Oyekan
Princess Adebopo Oyekan
Princess Adetola Oyekan
Prince Falade Oyekan
Prince Oriyomi Oyekan
Princess Molara Oyekan
Princess Adetoun Oyekan

Oba Rilwan Babatunde Osuolale Aremu AKIOLU I (see above)

OTHER MEMBERS: Royal or Ruling Houses include - Ajose, Kosoko, Dosumu, Akinsemoyin.
Chief Nasiru Dosunmu, current Paramount Apena of Lagos, married and has issue.
Prince Lanre Dosunmu (eldest son), Lecturer/Teacher/Accountant in Manchester & London.
Prince Dr. Ade Dosunmu (second son), Medical Doctor in the U.S.A.
Prince Tejumade Durosinmi
Princess Tejumade Alakija
Prince Bisi Sango-Doyin
Chief Olayiwola Balogun, died 9th December 2000
Alhaja Suliat Adedeji (sister), died 14th November 1996.
Prince Farouk Adewale Adele
Prince Moroof Adele
Prince Lasisi Ojora, Olori-Omoba, head of the Adele Ajosun Royal House, married and has issue.
Prince Otunba Adekunle Ojora, re-nowned businessman and corporate identity.
Alhaji Prince Musiliu Tijani
Prince Sikiru Adele Salvador
Prince Rasaki Adele
Princess Khadijat Adele-Dosunmu
Prince Tosin Adele
H.R.H. Princess Abiola Dosunmu, Erelu Kuti of Lagos, Acting Oba of Lagos 7th March to 22nd May 2003.
Princess Layiwola Ogundimu (Akinsemoyin Lineage), Junior Erelu of Lagos
Prince Kazeem Akitoye
Princess Taiye Eleko Dosunmu
Chief Shakoor Ajose, the Suenu of Lagos.
Chief Tajudeen Idris, the Alagbeji of Lagos.
The 11 nominees are for the vacant throne in 2003 are as follows.
Prince Aremo Fola Pearse (Esinlokun lineage)
Prince Kolawole Abayomi Balogun (Esinlokun lineage)
Prince Ademuyiwa Dosunmu (Akitoye lineage)
Prince Otunba Adekunle Ojora (Adele Ajosun lineage)
Prince Sammy Adebiyi (Akinsemoyin lineage-Shadeko branch)
Prince Rasheed Modile (Akinsemoyin lineage-Jolasun branch)
Prince Tajudeen Olusi (Akinsemoyin lineage-Aina Egbe branch), also received concurrent nominations from the Olusi and Akinsemoyin lineages.
Prince Adetutu Oladipo Eko (Akinsemoyin lineage-Gbosebi branch)
Prince Monsur Akinola Williams (Akinsemoyin lineage-Amore Olukokun branch)
Prince Rilwan Tunde Akiolu (Akiolu lineage)
Prince Kwam Alade Zaid (Akiolu lineage). An analysis of the nominations shows that five of the 11 nominees came from various branches of the Akinsemoyin house, two from the Akiolu house, two from Esinlokun and one each from the Akitoye and Adele Ajosun.

http://uqconnect.net/~zzhsoszy/states/nigeria/lagos.html

I think this topic has been done to death.


by now, what folks are supposed to be tracing are the roots of the people who made up the Edo empire.

where were they from.

At the zenith of Benin empire, it extended to Ikare, Owoh, Ekiti etc, yet this groups are NOT INSANE to disclaim their Yorubaness unlike their Igbo counterparts that were also under Benin Empire. What a shame.

Andre Uweh:

At the zenith of Benin empire, it extended to Ikare, Owoh, Ekiti etc, yet this groups are NOT INSAME to disclaim their Yorubaness unlike their Igbo counterparts that were also under Benin Empire. What a shame.

I don't understand why some Igbo groups like to distance themselves from the wider Igbo, but the fact remains that the Benin Empire has influence some Igbo clans. That cannot be denied.

Benin Empire is Nigeria's classical empire. We should not be ashamed to say that. They have a rich history.

Just like the Romans who saw the Ancient Greeks as their cultural forbears, many group in Southern Nigeria see the Benin Empire as their cultural forbears.

igbo in benin empire like the onitsha does not mean they are of edo blood but they lived under the influence of the empire as settlers and migrated back home when they had problems with the empire a process called reverse migration so take caution when you say igbos are from benin empire and i think thats the point the wiser yorubas want you to know that even though they had little influence they are clearly not edo blood.

its idiotic to say that benin is southern nigeria classical empire when in fact they learnt everything they know about sculpting from yorubas.

oduasolja:

its idiotic to say that benin is southern nigeria classical empire when in fact they learnt everything they know about sculpting from yorubas.

1. Like the brass plaques that Yorubas didn't make?

Like the intricate carved ivory tusks that Yorubas didn't make?

Like opting for general, idealized figures in elaborate and detailed scenes instead of the less ornate and very highly refined Yoruba realism?

I would refer you to this post for some information on their ancient sculpting: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-686264.0.html#msg8495561


2. Maybe you meant to claim that Yorubas learnt everything they knew about terracottas, and art in general from Nok?    Just wondering if you believe this.

Maybe people should say that Nok was Nigeria's classical civilization. It certainly existed around the time of other "classical" civilizations in the world.













Nobody could say people this refined looking and artistically sophisticated were uncivilized., yet for some reason Nok isn't often mentioned when discussing Nigeria's civilizations.



3. Benin really does seem to be the standout among Nigeria's medieval civilizations in terms of the number of groups it influenced in southern Nigeria, though.

EzeUche_:

I am not going to argue about Lagos. But Eko is its original name. Even the Oba of Lagos traces his roots to the Benin Empire so do not argue with me over that.

Just like Onitsha was founded by Bini settlers.

But I prefer if PhysicsMHD would comment. I like his views on HIS culture.

Onicha was not founded by Bini settlers. That founder was from Western Igboland(Anioma)

physics qed

you cant change history, you know.

you're a bit too defensive when it comes to benin.

you're missing some critical things that way.

^^^

Yeah. I reread what I wrote and I see your point about being overly defensive. My tone was too confrontational.

However, I still have to say that his statement about "learnt everything" cannot really be correct when looking at the actual art. The artistic styles are different and it turns out that the actual technical approaches to making the art are different.

Also I don't accept that somebody named "Iguegha" was really Yoruba. It looks like a combination of "Igue" and "gha", which are both Edo words (igue can have another meaning, which is not in reference to the festival, by the way). Think about that.

PhysicsQED:


1. Like the brass plaques that Yorubas didn't make?

Like the intricate carved ivory tusks that Yorubas didn't make?

Like opting for general, idealized figures in elaborate and detailed scenes instead of the less ornate and very highly refined Yoruba realism?

I would refer you to this post for some information on their ancient sculpting: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-686264.0.html#msg8495561

Actually, Benin often used the work of artists from Owo (Yoruba) in carving ivory; Owo has art in common with both Ife and Benin, realistic terracotta sculpture like Ife, motifs and ivory carving similar to Benin.

I've read the same art books and websites that you've read and they don't mention the tusks. Yes there are a few carved ivory works that were originally ascribed to Benin artists that some Western art historians very reasonably decided to ascribe an Owo origin to based on their style which they correctly see as showing a mixture of Benin and Yoruba artistic styles. That's fine, and in fact their claims about Owo only reinforce my point about the styles not being the same.

However, this makes no mention of the tusks. In fact, it's nearly impossible that the tusks were made by anyone other than Benin artists, considering the exclusivity of the guilds and the subject matter involved, and the artistic consistency in style between the ivory tusks and the other ivory works actually made by Benin artists. Also, the carved ivory spoons were also consistently identified as Benin work. In fact, the number of Benin carved ivory works which were ascribed to Owo artists was very small and had nothing to do with the tusks, which re-told important historical events in Benin history, so  I don't know how accurate it would be to say that they "often" used Owo artists.

As you said, Owo was influenced by both polities. Since Owo's greatest artistic achievement lay in terracotta which are ascribed to dates that go back earlier than any of the few Benin ivory works which are ascribed to Owo artists and earlier than the dates ascribed to their own kingdom's ivories, and these terracotta show no "Yoruba + Benin" mix of style, it would make more sense to assume a Benin ----> Owo influence in ivory carving following Benin's increased influence at Owo at a certain point. That said, my point is that Benin was not getting carved ivory tusks from Owo artists.

The Benin-Owo relationship is very interesting, and it's hard to know who may have influenced who.  I'm not an Owo, but from the Owo side, they see Owo and Benin as brother kingdoms.  The Edo version seems to show a dominant relationship towards the Owos. But that's for another thread. Check out the Met Museum's take on the use of ivory --

The rulers of Owo wear a number of ceremonial ensembles that are of Edo origin. One of these, called orufanran, consists of pants and a jacket sheathed in appliquéd scales of red flannel and studded with carved ivory ornaments. These pendants and masquettes mirror in their size and appearance those found at Benin—leopard, crocodile, and rams' heads (1991.17.123), as well as the faces of human rulers, allude to the extraordinary and fearsome powers of the king. Although similar to their Edo counterparts in form and function, they differ in the material from which they were made: ivory, rather than brass, was the favored material of Owo rulers at this time. The skill of Owo's ivory carvers was also appreciated at the court of Benin. During the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, Benin's rulers increasingly utilized insignia made from ivory, and imported Owo's art objects and recruited its artisans for their own royal workshops.

However, ivory had a prized place in Owo culture -- hunters had to present one ivory tusk of every pair found to the Olowo of Owo: and take a look at Oba Olateru Olagbegi I.

[img]http://sirismm.si.edu/eepa/eep/eepa_02006.jpg[/img]

Interesting. I stand corrected. Yorubas did carve ivory tusks.

However, I still wonder why it was only Owo and Benin that had elaborate ivory carving? There were other Yoruba art centers, after all.

^^Not true.  It seems that some Ifa divination tappers "iroke ifa" were made from Ivory, and they don't all seem to come from Owo.



Ivory divination tappers from Oyo



[img]http://94.228.36.51/cgi-bin/bridgemanImage.cgi/400wm.BON.121050.7055475/46942.jpg[/img]

^^^^

I stand corrected again, lol. However, Benin still seems like the "epicenter" of ivory carving in southern Nigeria from what I've read, just as Ife is still the clear "epicenter" of terracotta. There are too many Benin ivory works in a distinct Benin style for me to believe that they got it from Owo, especially since the style of many of Owo's ivory works seem to lean more towards the Benin style than toward the style of the other Yoruba ivories.

I also read somewhere that there was ivory carving in Lagos, but I can't find the link anymore.

PhysicsQED:

^^^^

I stand corrected again, lol. However, Benin still seems like the "epicenter" of ivory carving in southern Nigeria from what I've read, just as Ife is still the clear "epicenter" of terracotta. There are too many Benin ivory works in a distinct Benin style for me believe that they got it from Owo, especially since the style of many of Owo's ivory works seem to lean more towards the Benin style than toward the style of the other Yoruba ivories.

That very much seems to be the case.  Many fine ivory works came from Benin, and it has the largest and best documented selection.

But you have to understand, Owo is one of the largest Yoruba kingdoms.  It stretched all the way to Kogi state, and their palace is till the biggest one in Nigeria.  Owo itself never came under direct Benin dominion (though accounts of this vary), although many parts of its territory must have certainly felt the pressure and went under more tributary relationships.  What I am getting at is that it has an art style and tradition that is all its own. 

The Yorubas are too large and diverse of a group for only one style of anything; plus royal objects like carved ivory tusks differ from Ifa divination tools.

It could be Benin influence, or it could just be Owo style.  I lean toward the latter.

Yeah, I see your perspective as far as variation across a large group, and I can't claim to be knowledgeable about Owo art, so I definitely wouldn't just assert that their style for their ivories is not their own.  I was just very skeptical of the claim that Benin ivory carving was often dependent on Owo artists.

Incidentally, you should probably make a thread on ancient Yoruba art, buildings, etc. and also post any pictures of the Owo palace that you can find online or that you can put online.

Good idea! Didn't mean to disrupt this thread.

*this thread has been derailed,though into an interesting topic but you guys should go back to d thread's original topic.

I don't mean to hijack Ezeuche's thread, but it seems as of PhysicsQED is quite knowledgeable about Benin Empire. I'm trying to further my knowledge of the Empire, but I have some questions about their everyday life, that I haven't found any answers to. Do you have an e-mail address I could talk to you through? Should I ask them here? Or should I make a new thread?

PhysicsQED:

^^^^

I stand corrected again, lol. However, Benin still seems like the "epicenter" of ivory carving in southern Nigeria from what I've read, just as Ife is still the clear "epicenter" of terracotta. There are too many Benin ivory works in a distinct Benin style for me to believe that they got it from Owo, especially since the style of many of Owo's ivory works seem to lean more towards the Benin style than toward the style of the other Yoruba ivories.

Are you saying and perhaps boasting that Benin is the epicenter of efforts to wipe out all elephants from souther Nigeria, if it hasn't done so already?

EzeUche_:

The Benin Empire seems to be Southern Nigeria's classical empire and this kingdom influenced many people from the Yoruba to the Igbo.

Can someone describe the cultural diffusion of the Benin Empire to other pars of Southern Nigeria? I have always been interested in the Benin Empire, and I want to give them so much credit.

Even the Onye Onicha trace their foundations to settlers from the Benin Empire. Lagos was founded by a Bini expedition. For their small population, the Bini people have a lot to be proud about.

-Proudly Igbo but an admirer of the Benin Empire

Hey,what about this: Can someone describe the cultural diffusion of other parts of Southern Nigeria to the Benin Empire?

By what rubrics did you arrive at Benin being Southern Nigeria's classical Empire? Remember Oyo and Sungbo Eredo.


One more thing; is it that some people in Nigeria feel relevant only if they say that their tribe conquered another, leading perhaps to the invention of history?

amor4ce :
Are you saying and perhaps boasting that Benin is the epicenter of efforts to wipe out all elephants from souther Nigeria, if it hasn't done so already?

I based what I said on what I had read about

a) the Oba's elephant hunters
b) the ivory carvers guild (igbesamwan)

and

c) the plethora of ivories I had seen in a distinct Benin style


As for this stuff about wiping out elephants, I don't understand what you're getting at.

If you admire an animal, use it as a symbol, use it for art, etc., why would you be deliberately trying to wipe it out? There's nothing particularly horrible about people's ancestors hunting animals in ancient times for useful materials since humans killed and still kill living things for what they want even to this day.

Today there are some places in Eurasia that lions don't occupy because they hunted and eliminated them in ancient times. Are they complaining, wailing and gnashing their teeth because lions no longer roam the countryside freely? Of course not. Conflict between man and animal for human gain was the natural order back then. I'm skeptical of the claim that Benin was engaged in an attempt at elephanticide.

Hey,what about this: Can someone describe the cultural diffusion of other parts of Southern Nigeria to the Benin Empire?

1. There was cultural diffusion of other parts of southern Nigeria into Benin from other groups - for example, Agho Obaseki was of Anioma ancestry, but sometimes some of the claims about that cultural diffusion some people present (especially on the internet) are not accurate. For example, I saw where someone on the internet claimed a Benin title, Esogban, was derived from some other part of southern Nigeria. Contrary to what one might read on the internet, the title derives from the Edo 'Esogbane' (see p. 94 of the book Benin: Kings and Rituals: Court Arts from Nigeria), meaning 'it would soon come to an end'.

2. One can describe the cultural diffusion of other parts of Southern Nigeria to the Benin empire, but I wouldn't be surprised if after some of these claims the actual Edo are just bystanders while "Ijaws launch coastal invasions of Lagos under Benin empire", "Yorubas teach them all they know about sculpting" "Benin cloth comes from Ijebu, and no important high quality Benin cloth is exported is from Benin itself" (some "professional" historian actually implied this, despite a huge amount of glaring evidence to the contrary from both archaeology, written documents and tradition), "Benin was increasingly reliant on Owo artists for its ivory ornaments"  (Henry Drewal and some of his co-authors suggested this, vastly exaggerating the extent of the use of Owo ivories in Benin) etc. Just claims and when you look at the actual evidence, it's scant if not non-existent.

One can certainly talk about the diffusion into Benin, but we should support it with good reasoning and facts.

One more thing; is it that some people in Nigeria feel relevant only if they say that their tribe conquered another, leading perhaps to the invention of history?

Where was it written that the Benin "tribe" conquered another entire "tribe"? The one thing that could be construed in such a way is that the Benin kingdom invaded and defeated the Igala kingdom centered at Idah after the Igala kingdom attempted to conquer the Benin kingdom. After that event, that rival kingdom allegedly was under Benin for a while.

Some of the Benin art may support the veracity of the Benin claim to victory in this battle of peers.

Also, running with your line of thought, I guess Oyo's history is all invented too. Sokoto as well. etc. since they claim more explicitly to have subjugated specific groups. I always got the impression that the might of Oyo's cavalry against those it fought or conquered were one of its sources of fame and something some people repeatedly bragged about. But I guess there were no empires anywhere. Nobody conquered anything. Now everybody can smile and dance and hold hands like one big happy family.   

And to be completely honest, I always thought there was more "invention of history" against the idea that Benin invaded anywhere than I thought there was invention of history about Benin conquering this or that place. Yes the people claiming Benin conquered this or that place do very frequently go overboard with some excessive claims, but I think they have been thoroughly outclassed in their chosen profession by those who have explained to us at length that Benin didn't conquer anywhere around it all.

*this last comment above is far too circular to drive home any point if there are valid arguments in ťĥĕ write-up at all.