jesusjnr2020:
Kindly quote where "the promise" was made to Noah if you're not lying and just trying to find fault where there's none.

Genesis 8:20-22 KJV

And Noah built an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar

And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart "I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will i again smite any more every thing living as i have done.

While the earth remaineth, seed time and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease"

Supporting scriptures that God has established this planet to remain forever~
Psalms 78:69
Psalms 104:5
Psalms 119:90
Isaiah 45:18

jesusjnr2020:
What do you understand by "as long as the earth remains"?

You speak about facts, but you have so far failed to show where it was actually stated in the Bible that God ever said the Earth or the world would never end or be destroyed, but still quoting a place where God said something else and drawing the wrong meaning from it. So much for someone else who wants to teach someone how to study the Bible.

I already know for a fact that you're driven by sentiments and not facts, because even when you're clearly caught with the facts, you'd still deny it. So this is just to confirm that fact!

Well, you can choose your own meaning out of the scripture. That has always been the issue with the bible, Exegesis vs Eisegesis.

MaxInDHouse:


Genesis 8:20-22 KJV

And Noah built an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar

And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart "I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will i again smite any more every thing living as i have done.

While the earth remaineth, seed time and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease"

Supporting scriptures that God has established this planet to remain forever~
Psalms 78:69
Psalms 104:5
Psalms 119:90
Isaiah 45:18

"While the Earth remaineth" must sound like the Earth had been established to remain forever to you.

Maybe you guys know something else I don't know, because there's nothing here from what you quoted that suggests that the Earth doesn't have an end. Instead it's the otherwise with the bolded.

jesusjnr2020:
"While the Earth remaineth" must sound like the Earth had been established to remain forever to you.

Maybe you guys know something else I don't know, because there's nothing here from what you quoted that suggests that the Earth doesn't have an end. Instead it's the otherwise with the bolded.

I think both of you are quoting God's word and it's God's word itself that should interpret itself. "While the earth remaineth" could mean anything to either side but one thing is sure.
The Psalms and Isaiah also confirmed that God has established the earth forever!

Myer:


Well, you can choose your own meaning out of the scripture. That has always been the issue with the bible, Exegesis vs Eisegesis.

There you go again when you'd been found wanting with the facts. You're still trying to make flimsy excuses.

You said a promise was made to Noah that the world would never be destroyed, but that has been hence proven to be a lie by the facts!

Later you'd start talking about giving facts. You should at least start doing that truthfully, even if you want to find faults in the Bible, instead of presenting figments of your sentiments as facts.

jesusjnr2020:
There you go again when you'd been found wanting with the facts. You're still trying to make flimsy excuses.

You said a promise was made to Noah that the world would never be destroyed, but that has been hence proven to be a lie by the facts!

Later you'd start talking about giving facts. You should at least start doing that truthfully, even if you want to find faults in the Bible, instead of presenting figments of your sentiments as facts.

Your theology is so faulty it sounds like a different religion altogether.

You claim the earth will be destroyed where as after over how many millennia it has not been destroyed.

I point you to scriptural promise that it will not be destroyed, yet you're arguing with what is in the bible.

AkinwaleJJ:


I think both of you are quoting God's word and it's God's word itself that should interpret itself. "While the earth remaineth" could mean anything to either side but one thing is sure.
The Psalms and Isaiah also confirmed that God has established the earth forever!

False!

It couldn't mean anything to either side, but not expecting any better from a Jehovah Witness.

That doesn't in any way suggest that the world doesn't have an end. Instead it suggests the exact opposite.

So to use that verse to prove that God promised Noah He'd never destroy the world is nonsensical.

Myer:


Your theology is so faulty it sounds like a different religion altogether.

You claim the earth will be destroyed where as after over how many millennia it has not been destroyed.

I point you to scriptural promise that it will not be destroyed, yet you're arguing with what is in the bible.

Where did you point me to?

The scriptural promise you made up in your head?

You didn't show me anywhere God promised He would never destroy the world.

That's the fact!

By the way, if the Earth had ended, you wouldn't still be here talking thrash, so you have no case with that. God doesn't need to destroy the Earth for the Earth to end because it may have it's own expiry date. That's a logically and scientifically valid possibility.

jesusjnr2020:
False!

It couldn't mean anything to either side, but not expecting any better from a Jehovah Witness.

That doesn't in any way suggest that the world doesn't have an end. Instead it suggests the exact opposite.

So to use that verse to prove that God promised Noah He'd never destroy the world is nonsensical.

Sure i'm one of JWs, and i know you too must be worshiping with some religionsists somewhere.
What really matters is the good news of God's kingdom that Jesus asked us to preach and teach others.
I'm sure you will like to be one of Jesus' disciples too and as such you should be prepared to help your listener understand what your God is saying, so can you explain to a layman who doesn't believe in books why your God is bent on destroying our beautiful planet home?

jesusjnr2020:
Where did you point me to?

The scriptural promise you made up in your head?

You didn't show me anywhere God promised He would never destroy the world.

That's the fact!

By the way, if the Earth had ended, you wouldn't still be here talking thrash, so you have no case with that. God doesn't need to destroy the Earth for the Earth to end because it may have it's own expiry date. That's a logically and scientifically valid possibility.

According to God's word, the bolded is impossible! Psal 78:69, 104:5, 119:90

God said the purpose for which he established the earth is for it to be inhabited [Isai 45:18] so even if each human has inherited an expiring date through Adamic sin, the earth remains forever [Eccl 1:4] and God said his words will not return to him unfulfilled! Isai 55:11
That's what JWs preach and teach but i'll like to hear your opinion on the matter to know how i can convince an believer to believe in a God that's bent on destroying this our self sufficient planet home, and his reasons.

Myer:


Your theology is so faulty it sounds like a different religion altogether.

You claim the earth will be destroyed where as after over how many millennia it has not been destroyed.

I point you to scriptural promise that it will not be destroyed, yet you're arguing with what is in the bible.

Sorry to cut in here, his theology is not new, that's exactly what all the churches teaches except few perhaps after considering the scriptures with diligence. The symbolic terms used in the New Testament is what caused the confusion but the fact remains that God has promised that in later times there will come to be revelations of things to come in symbolic terms, so it's only the wise that will understand the sacred writings not everyone. Dani 12:10

AkinwaleJJ:


According to God's word, the bolded is impossible! Psal 78:69, 104:5, 119:90

God said the purpose for which he established the earth is for it to be inhabited [Isai 45:18] so even if each human has inherited an expiring date through Adamic sin, the earth remains forever [Eccl 1:4] and God said his words will not return to him unfulfilled! Isai 55:11
That's what JWs preach and teach but i'll like to hear your opinion on the matter to know how i can convince an believer to believe in a God that's bent on destroying this our self sufficient planet home, and his reasons.

AkinwaleJJ:


Sure i'm one of JWs, and i know you too must be worshiping with some religionsists somewhere.
What really matters is the good news of God's kingdom that Jesus asked us to preach and teach others.
I'm sure you will like to be one of Jesus' disciples too and as such you should be prepared to help your listener understand what your God is saying, so can you explain to a layman who doesn't believe in books why your God is bent on destroying our beautiful planet home?

Abeg carry your Jehovah Witness lies and nonsense go one place make I see road.

You're completely blind to all the places in the Bibe I quoted where Jesus said the world would end. And you're here talking about what the bolded being impossible according to God's Word.

You seem ignorant of the fact that Jesus is in fact the Word of God.

Later you'd say that you're Christians, when you're actually Antichrists!

jesusjnr2020:
Abeg carry your Jehovah Witness lies and nonsense go one place make I see road.

You're completely blind to all the places in the Bibe I quoted where Jesus said the world would end. And you're here talking about what the bolded being impossible according to God's Word.

You seem ignorant of the fact that Jesus is in fact the Word of God.

Later you'd say that you're Christians, when you're actually Antichrists!

OK so you mean Jesus was antiscripture?

Because there must be a way to correlate this, i'm not doubting what you're saying but know that if you're banking on the speeches of Jesus then you're lost completely because he himself said "i have not come to abolish the law or the prophet but to fulfill it" definitely he came to confirm what has been written before him. But because he spoke in PARABLES [Matt 13:13] anyone taking his speeches literally can never see God's Kingdom as you'll continue to get confused at his speeches [John 6:64-66] Jesus don't speak in plain words unless when it's compulsory!
For instance had it been that his disciples understood what he meant by saying "Lazarus has fallen asleep and i'm going to wake him up" [John 11:11] an unbeliever like you will continue to argue that Lazarus didn't die. But thank God he told his confused followers the meaning that day! John 11:14
So you can continue with your arguements just know that Jesus' teachings when it comes to the secret about the future and judgment is symbolic not literal! Matt 13:34

Ihedinobi3:


I certainly appreciate your wanting to clear things up. We are to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace (Ephesians 4:3), even when we disagree, if we are believers. I just really cannot continue to treat anyone who insists on pursuing false teaching like a brother (Titus 3:10; Romans 16:17), and because breaking fellowship is not by any means a light matter I wanted to warn you first. I would be more than happy to be at peace with you if you belong to the Lord Jesus. So, again, I do appreciate your willingness to discuss this. You don't owe it to me at all, but we ought to be at peace with one another if we are both of Christ.

To start off, everything that you've listed out is either wrong or problematic. I'll demonstrate, then you can pick any that you want us to discuss and we can discuss it. If you want us to discuss them all, we can do so either one at a time or in parallel.


Re: 1. We are already in God's kingdom on earth through the resurrection of Christ. Colossians 1:13

36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
John 18:36 (NIV)

20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
Philippians 3:20-21 (NIV)

These are only two samples of a vast array of Scriptures that completely reject the idea that the Kingdom of God is here on Earth. The only sense in which the Kingdom of God is here is that its citizens are here.


Re: 2. This world has become the kingdom of Christ Revelation 11:15 and will last forever. Genesis 8:22

4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
2 Corinthians 4:4 (NASB)

19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
1 John 5:19 (NIV)

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
2 Peter 3:10-13 (NIV)

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
Revelation 20:11 (NIV)

1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
Revelation 21:1 (NIV)

Just a sampling of Scriptures again that show that you might not have understood the passages you posted.


Re: 3. Judgement is immediately after we die. Hebrews 9:27

What happened to Lazarus the brother of Mary and Martha? Wasn't he judged after he died? After being raised from the dead, what happened to that judgment? What about all those people who we were raised from the dead by various prophets and the Lord Jesus? Were they not judged? If they were, why were they brought back to the earth? If they weren't, why weren't they?

Then also, there are these Scriptures:

12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.
Revelation 22:12 (NIV)

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:11-15 (NIV)

17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:17 (NIV)

And they are not the only ones. The Bible teaches that the Lord will judge the Church at His Coming, then He will judge Millennial believers at the end of the Millennium and the unbelievers after them.


Re: 4. There is instant resurrection of Christians immediately after their death 1 Corinthians 15:35-57

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (NIV)


Suffice to say that I rarely see anything biblically correct in your writings here. So, these four are as good a starting point as any, if you actually want to work through them with me.

This has always been the issue with Christians and the bible.

The bible is self-contradictory. It says one thing here and says the direct opposite else where.

Both you and paxonel have correctly quoted scriptural references to support your selves yet both of you are contradicting each other.

The same bible that says the Kingdom of heaven has come also says the kingdom of heaven is not here.

The same bible that says the world will be destroyed says God will not destroy it.

So how then do you know who is right?

AkinwaleJJ:


OK so you mean Jesus was antiscripture?

Because there must be a way to correlate this, i'm not doubting what you're saying but know that if you're banking on the speeches of Jesus then you're lost completely because he himself said "i have not come to abolish the law or the prophet but to fulfill it" definitely he came to confirm what has been written before him. But because he spoke in PARABLES [Matt 13:13] anyone taking his speeches literally can never see God's Kingdom as you'll continue to get confused at his speeches [John 6:64-66] Jesus don't speak in plain words unless when it's compulsory!
For instance had it been that his disciples understood what he meant by saying "Lazarus has fallen asleep and i'm going to wake him up" [John 11:11] an unbeliever like you will continue to argue that Lazarus didn't die. But thank God he told his confused followers the meaning that day! John 11:14
So you can continue with your arguements just know that Jesus' teachings when it comes to the secret about the future and judgment is symbolic not literal! Matt 13:34

Maybe you should ask him what the literal EARTH did in the first place for it to be destroyed.
When in fact the Bible says that Jehovah God will bring ruin to those(that is, the world of humans alienated from God) who are ruining the earth(the LITERAL EARTH/GROUND)—Revelation 11:18

Myer:


This has always been the issue with Christians and the bible.

The bible is self-contradictory. It says one thing here and says the direct opposite else where.

Both you and paxonel have correctly quoted scriptural references to support your selves yet both of you are contradicting each other.

The same bible that says the Kingdom of heaven has come also says the kingdom of heaven is not here.

The same bible that says the world will be destroyed says God will not destroy it.

So how then do you know who is right?

The truth is not hidden. God created the earth and the first time he destroyed it with water never meant the destruction of the planet but all life on dry land. And there were survivors!
He promised never to do such again and said the earth will last forever. So if you're now reading something different after the coming of the Christ whom the scriptures foretold will speak in PARABLES, then know that what you're reading (which is no more in harmony with God's promises before) must be symbolic terms that needed to be unraveled.
Most Churchgoers will quickly quote the new testament to support their preconceived opinion but ask them the meaning of certain verses in the same chapter and see how dumb they'll become. Because the understanding has not been given to them! Dani 12:10

DappaD:


Maybe you should ask him what the literal EARTH did in the first place for it to be destroyed.
When in fact the Bible says that Jehovah God will bring ruin to those(that is, the world of humans alienated from God) who are ruining the earth(the LITERAL EARTH/GROUND)—Revelation 11:18

You are a Jehovah witness so he will not answer your question!

AkinwaleJJ:


OK so you mean Jesus was antiscripture?

Because there must be a way to correlate this, i'm not doubting what you're saying but know that if you're banking on the speeches of Jesus then you're lost completely because he himself said "i have not come to abolish the law or the prophet but to fulfill it" definitely he came to confirm what has been written before him. But because he spoke in PARABLES [Matt 13:13] anyone taking his speeches literally can never see God's Kingdom as you'll continue to get confused at his speeches [John 6:64-66] Jesus don't speak in plain words unless when it's compulsory!
For instance had it been that his disciples understood what he meant by saying "Lazarus has fallen asleep and i'm going to wake him up" [John 11:11] an unbeliever like you will continue to argue that Lazarus didn't die. But thank God he told his confused followers the meaning that day! John 11:14
So you can continue with your arguements just know that Jesus' teachings when it comes to the secret about the future and judgment is symbolic not literal! Matt 13:34

I'm saying you Jehovah Witnesses are Antichrists despite claiming to be christians, and you've hence proven me right once again.

I told you tatime or Maximus or both, carry your lies to somewhere else. I'm not interested!

jesusjnr2020:
I'm saying you Jehovah Witnesses are Antichrists despite claiming to be christians, and you've hence proven me right once again.

I told you tatime or Maximus or both, carry your lies to somewhere else. I'm not interested!

Thanks!

Kobojunkie:
The field in question does not refer to an actual place on the map. If you read through the parables about the kingdom carefully, you will note that the Kingdom only refers to a portion of the whole, and not a place on the whole or the whole itself. Imagine the world a map of so large area covered with different fields, the Kingdom of God is just one of those fields.
Not even close! Even when He tells the parable of the wedding Banquet, again Jesus Christ tell story of a single kingdom where it is possible there are many, many other kingdoms.

I am afraid you have it all wrong there. Jesus[s][quote author=paxonel post=94787976]you fail to point out what that minute area is and where it is located, therefore your argument isn't complete and you are wrong

The field in question does not refer to an actual place on the map. If you read through the parables about the kingdom carefully, you will note that the Kingdom only refers to a portion of the whole, and not a place on the whole or the whole itself. Imagine the world a map of so large area covered with different fields, the Kingdom of God is just one of those fields.

paxonel:
Otherwise this whole thing is for the entire world.

Not even close! Even when He tells the parable of the wedding Banquet, again Jesus Christ tell story of a single kingdom where it is possible there are many, many other kingdoms.

paxonel:
John 3:16 For God so love the world...
Today after 2000 years of his resurrection, we have Christianity spread everywhere in almost the entire world and your belief that it is not for the entire world couldn't do anything to stop this spread.

I am afraid you have it all wrong there. Jesus Christ did not come that the world may have what is called Christianity today. Plus, Christianity, as we have it in today's world, is a complete departure from the descriptions of Jesus Christ's Kingdom parables. [/s] Choosing to repel my earlier claim of the possible existence of many fields and many KIngdoms

The Parable of the Weeds Explained

Matthew 13 vs 1-9 (ERV)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
36. Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.”
36. He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
36. The field is the world, [/b]and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
[b] 36. and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels.
36. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
36. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
36. and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
36. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Myer:


This has always been the issue with Christians and the bible.

The bible is self-contradictory. It says one thing here and says the direct opposite else where.

Both you and paxonel have correctly quoted scriptural references to support your selves yet both of you are contradicting each other.

The same bible that says the Kingdom of heaven has come also says the kingdom of heaven is not here.

The same bible that says the world will be destroyed says God will not destroy it.

So how then do you know who is right?

You are close to the mark, but you're not quite there.

The Bible can sound contradictory, it is true, but it actually isn't. Any professional in any field can tell you that they are not the only ones who claim expertise in that field. All sorts of people exercise their opinions in all sorts of things as though they had some authority to do so. The Bible is not exempt from this kind of abuse. It is particularly bad with the Bible because for some reason, people think that the Bible is not supposed to be hard to understand, but, in fact, except for the gift of the Holy Spirit and the gift of pastor-teachers too, it would be impossible to understand nearly anything in it.

Of course, unbelievers such as yourself scoff at the idea that a book should be impossible to understand without a "holy spirit." It sounds to you like a cop-out, but just as one without the benefit of a cultural background is still likely to fail to understand the nuances of a language that they are learning, it really is impossible to understand a philosophy that isn't even human without having some help from whatever the source of the philosophy is. This is the problem of epistemology that atheists often throw at religion, namely, that we have no way of knowing that anything about God is true, and therefore there is no rational basis on which to believe that God exists. It makes sense, since in order to know anything about God, we have to go outside of the universe to find Him, since He is of necessity outside the universe.

But we can't go outside the universe. We are creatures of this universe limited by space, time, matter, and energy. We can't exist in a spaceless, timeless, matter less, energyless reality. That would be like a drawing exiting the paper on which it is made to prance about in the real world. An impossibility.

Therefore, the only way that we can relate to God and know Him or anything about Him is by His actively entering this universe's reality and enabling us to experience Him. That is what we get through faith and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I'll point out that simply because the universe exists, we can certainly be sure that a God of a certain type of moral character and power exists, so that is not the issue. The issue is getting to know Who this God is and what He wants of us. That is what we can only access through faith.

Therefore, as the Bible tells us,

9 But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” 10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:9 (NKJV)

This is not stranger than being unable to make sense of someone else's language. Until you learn a language, it sounds like gibberish (madness/foolishness) to you. Likewise, unless you have God's Spirit, His reasoning/philosophy/word sounds insane/foolish to you. That is exactly why you perceive contradictions in something that only sounds rich/full/complex and perfectly sensible to me.

Of course, one can only have the Spirit by faith now. You have to believe the Gospel in order to receive God's Spirit. Then, you have to submit yourself to a pastor-teacher in order to carefully study the Bible's highly complex teachings so that what might seem inscrutable at first increasingly opens up like a budding flower to you.

So, you see, where immature believers have considerable difficulty getting at the meaning of very much in the Bible, the unbeliever has no shot at all at understanding anything beyond the Gospel in the Bible.

As you said, the Scriptures in question are correctly quoted, but have they been correctly interpreted? The fundamental principle of the Bible after the one that everything in the Bible is God's own word is that Scriptures don't contradict.

35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken)
John 10:35 (NKJV)

The Bible stands together or falls together. No Scripture triumphs over another as if they couldn't both be true. The question is how they fit together, and the answer to that is seldom easy. That is why there are so many churches, denominations, and religious groups all based around the Bible. That is why some (including Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholics, and Mormons) have even made up their own "Bibles" to better accommodate the foolish lies that they delude themselves into believing. It is simply not easy to understand the Bible. And human beings are naturally too arrogant to submit to anybody especially with respect to learning about God.

Now, for example, Colossians 1:13 says,

13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
Colossians 1:13 (NIV)

The other passages that I shared say the following

36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
John 18:36 (NIV)

20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
Philippians 3:20-21 (NIV)

Are these Scriptures saying different things? Yes, absolutely. Are they saying contradictory things? Absolutely not.

The Colossians passage just describes the meaning of being saved. When we believe the Gospel, the Lord God adopts us as His children and as citizens of His Kingdom just as John 1:12, Galatians 4:5-7 and a plethora of other passages demonstrate. In other words, this Colossians excerpt does not even make a claim at all that God's Kingdom is either part of this world or in any way affiliated with it. In fact, there is a clear difference made in that passage between the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of this world, which latter is called the "dominion of darkness" in the quote above as a completely different thing from the "kingdom of the Son He [that is, God] loves."

The other passages quoted from John and Philippians are concerned not just with what we become after we believe in the Gospel but particularly with the location of this Kingdom of which we become a part by faith in Jesus Christ. In other words, the question "where is the Kingdom of God?" is answered by these passages. And that answer is "Heaven," not Earth.

As I said several times in my answers to the thread, that a kingdom/nation/dominion has citizens within another kingdom/nation/dominion is not the same as saying that that kingdom/nation/dominion is part of the other one. We could say that the said kingdom etc has or maintains a presence in the other, but that presence does not make it part of the other.

How can we know who is right here? By looking at the Bible. If my interpretation does violence to what is actually written in the Bible, then I'm wrong. If somebody else's does the same, then they are wrong too. What does it mean to do violence to the Bible's words? It is to either dismiss them or to assign a meaning to them that necessarily forces a contradiction upon them. Clearly, the thread is forcing a contradiction on the Bible. Since the Bible cannot contradict itself, as I have explained above, the thread is wrong.

Ihedinobi3:


You are close to the mark, but you're not quite there.

The Bible can sound contradictory, it is true, but it actually isn't. Any professional in any field can tell you that they are not the only ones who claim expertise in that field. All sorts of people exercise their opinions in all sorts of things as though they had some authority to do so. The Bible is not exempt from this kind of abuse. It is particularly bad with the Bible because for some reason, people think that the Bible is not supposed to be hard to understand, but, in fact, except for the gift of the Holy Spirit and the gift of pastor-teachers too, it would be impossible to understand nearly anything in it.

Of course, unbelievers such as yourself scoff at the idea that a book should be impossible to understand without a "holy spirit." It sounds to you like a cop-out, but just as one without the benefit of a cultural background is still likely to fail to understand the nuances of a language that they are learning, it really is impossible to understand a philosophy that isn't even human without having some help from whatever the source of the philosophy is. This is the problem of epistemology that atheists often throw at religion, namely, that we have no way of knowing that anything about God is true, and therefore there is no rational basis on which to believe that God exists. It makes sense, since in order to know anything about God, we have to go outside of the universe to find Him, since He is of necessity outside the universe.

But we can't go outside the universe. We are creatures of this universe limited by space, time, matter, and energy. We can't exist in a spaceless, timeless, matter less, energyless reality. That would be like a drawing exiting the paper on which it is made to prance about in the real world. An impossibility.

Therefore, the only way that we can relate to God and know Him or anything about Him is by His actively entering this universe's reality and enabling us to experience Him. That is what we get through faith and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I'll point out that simply because the universe exists, we can certainly be sure that a God of a certain type of moral character and power exists, so that is not the issue. The issue is getting to know Who this God is and what He wants of us. That is what we can only access through faith.

Therefore, as the Bible tells us,

9 But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” 10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:9 (NKJV)

This is not stranger than being unable to make sense of someone else's language. Until you learn a language, it sounds like gibberish (madness/foolishness) to you. Likewise, unless you have God's Spirit, His reasoning/philosophy/word sounds insane/foolish to you. That is exactly why you perceive contradictions in something that only sounds rich/full/complex and perfectly sensible to me.

Of course, one can only have the Spirit by faith now. You have to believe the Gospel in order to receive God's Spirit. Then, you have to submit yourself to a pastor-teacher in order to carefully study the Bible's highly complex teachings so that what might seem inscrutable at first increasingly opens up like a budding flower to you.

So, you see, where immature believers have considerable difficulty getting at the meaning of very much in the Bible, the unbeliever has no shot at all at understanding anything beyond the Gospel in the Bible.

As you said, the Scriptures in question are correctly quoted, but have they been correctly interpreted? The fundamental principle of the Bible after the one that everything in the Bible is God's own word is that Scriptures don't contradict.

35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken)
John 10:35 (NKJV)

The Bible stands together or falls together. No Scripture triumphs over another as if they couldn't both be true. The question is how they fit together, and the answer to that is seldom easy. That is why there are so many churches, denominations, and religious groups all based around the Bible. That is why some (including Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholics, and Mormons) have even made up their own "Bibles" to better accommodate the foolish lies that they delude themselves into believing. It is simply not easy to understand the Bible. And human beings are naturally too arrogant to submit to anybody especially with respect to learning about God.

In one single post you just condemned other Christians except your own denomination. Typical of Christians by the way, so don't feel too guilty.

The only reason you are blind to the contradictions in the bible is because you "choose" to try to find the correlation, because you believe that it is infallible even when the contradictions are glaring.

A flaw in your argument that only unbelievers cannot understand the bible because the Holy spirit interprets the bible is easy to point out.
Just sit two Holyspirit filled Christians together and watch the argument ensue about their interpretation of scriptures. Why do you think there are so many denominations with their different doctrines?

Unless perhaps your assertion is that only your denomination has exclusivity to the Holyspirit.
Of which I am still sure you and other members in your denomination share diverse interpretation of the scriptures.

Myer:


In one single post you just condemned other Christians except your own denomination. Typical of Christians by the way, so don't feel too guilty.

The only reason you are blind to the contradictions in the bible is because you "choose" to try to find the correlation, because you believe that it is infallible even when the contradictions are glaring.

A flaw in your argument that only unbelievers cannot understand the bible because the Holy spirit interprets the bible is easy to point out.
Just sit two Holyspirit filled Christians together and watch the argument ensue about their interpretation of scriptures. Why do you think there are so many denominations with their different doctrines?

Unless perhaps your assertion is that only your denomination has exclusivity to the Holyspirit.
Of which I am still sure you and other members in your denomination share diverse interpretation of the scriptures.

Well, obviously you wouldn't bother to read my post. It's neither surprising nor particularly unexpected. As I always tell anti-christians, I hardly ever offer my answers for your sake. I certainly hope that they will do you good, but I primarily use conversation with you as an opportunity to answer difficult questions for fellow believers.

For what good it might do you though,

1. I never claimed anywhere to belong to any denominations, because, you see, I actually don't. I was born and raised in the Methodist Church. I had exposure to the Jehovah's Witnesses growing up, and my mother's side of the family was Roman Catholic and my grandma used to take me to mass and other sacraments. From my early years, I read writings from all sorts of theologians and wannabe theologians from all kinds of traditions including the Pentecostal and the heterodoxical like the Seventh Day Adventists. I changed churches multiple times until I was almost 30 when I finally gave up on churches entirely. At present, I am a student and apprentice pastor-teacher under the Ichthys Ministry at https://ichthys.com. It is quite obviously non-denominational with a very heavy bias to the Bible's position and little respect for religious traditionalism. So, I could hardly be condemning all denominations except mine, since I don't belong to any.

2. I have certainly offered an example of a reconciliation between apparently contradictory passages. I don't see any refutation of my arguments, so I see no reason at all to believe your argument that I am blind to any real contradictions. I believe that that is merely a false claim borne of your own wilful blindness to the Bible's unity.

3. Since I didn't claim that only unbelievers cannot understand the Bible, and since you yourself just claimed that I condemned other Christians (for interpreting the Bible wrong), this flaw that you claim obviously exists only in your imagination. In fact, I stated unequivocally that immature believers have considerable difficulty understanding the Bible, and I explained that having the Holy Spirit is only one of the two things necessary for understanding the Bible. The Holy Spirit grants us the ability to understand the Scriptures, but pastor-teachers are given to explain the Bible, that is, to open the Bible to fellow believers. One who does not have the Holy Spirit will not be able to understand even if a pastor-teacher explains, just as you yourself are proving with your response right now. But one who has the Holy Spirit and is willing to humbly learn the Truth has no problem understanding the pastor-teacher's explanations.

4. As to why there are so many denominations, you actually bolded the text of the paragraph where I tried to demonstrate what I believe to be the reason, and yet you act like I didn't.

5. Do even mature believers agree on all things in the Bible? Certainly not.

15 All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.
Philippians 3:15 (NIV)

We are still in mortal flesh that is sinful. So, we will always have imperfections even in our understanding of the Bible. But that only goes to show just how desperate the position of the unbeliever is. If even the most mature believers can still suffer imperfections in understanding the Bible, and immature believers don't even understand anything themselves, what hope does an unbeliever have?

Ihedinobi3:


Well, obviously you wouldn't bother to read my post. It's neither surprising nor particularly unexpected. As I always tell anti-christians, I hardly ever offer my answers for your sake. I certainly hope that they will do you good, but I primarily use conversation with you as an opportunity to answer difficult questions for fellow believers.

For what good it might do you though,

1. I never claimed anywhere to belong to any denominations, because, you see, I actually don't. I was born and raised in the Methodist Church. I had exposure to the Jehovah's Witnesses growing up, and my mother's side of the family was Roman Catholic and my grandma used to take me to mass and other sacraments. From my early years, I read writings from all sorts of theologians and wannabe theologians from all kinds of traditions including the Pentecostal and the heterodoxical like the Seventh Day Adventists. I changed churches multiple times until I was almost 30 when I finally gave up on churches entirely. At present, I am a student and apprentice pastor-teacher under the Ichthys Ministry at https://ichthys.com. It is quite obviously non-denominational with a very heavy bias to the Bible's position and little respect for religious traditionalism. So, I could hardly be condemning all denominations except mine, since I don't belong to any.

2. I have certainly offered an example of a reconciliation between apparently contradictory passages. I don't see any refutation of my arguments, so I see no reason at all to believe your argument that I am blind to any real contradictions. I believe that that is merely a false claim borne of your own wilful blindness to the Bible's unity.

3. Since I didn't claim that only unbelievers cannot understand the Bible, and since you yourself just claimed that I condemned other Christians (for interpreting the Bible wrong), this flaw that you claim obviously exists only in your imagination. In fact, I stated unequivocally that immature believers have considerable difficulty understanding the Bible, and I explained that having the Holy Spirit is only one of the two things necessary for understanding the Bible. The Holy Spirit grants us the ability to understand the Scriptures, but pastor-teachers are given to explain the Bible, that is, to open the Bible to fellow believers. One who does not have the Holy Spirit will not be able to understand even if a pastor-teacher explains, just as you yourself are proving with your response right now. But one who has the Holy Spirit and is willing to humbly learn the Truth has no problem understanding the pastor-teacher's explanations.

4. As to why there are so many denominations, you actually bolded the text of the paragraph where I tried to demonstrate what I believe to be the reason, and yet you act like I didn't.

5. Do even mature believers agree on all things in the Bible? Certainly not.

15 All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.
Philippians 3:15 (NIV)

We are still in mortal flesh that is sinful. So, we will always have imperfections even in our understanding of the Bible. But that only goes to show just how desperate the position of the unbeliever is. If even the most mature believers can still suffer imperfections in understanding the Bible, and immature believers don't even understand anything themselves, what hope does an unbeliever have?

Bravo. You've said it all.
Am I anti-Christian though? That's a bit of a stretch.
I'm simply against the pseudo-christianity that abounds.

My simple question ergo is how come "mature Christians" with theological background still don't agree on the bible nor exhibit the power there in?
Neither in love nor working of miracles as promised in the scriptures, take you for example.

Ephesians 3:17-19
That Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Do you understand this scripture?
Do you comprehend what this alone would accomplish if it were a reality in the lives of Christian's?

The bible is full of these promises but not realistic.
The truth is the world is pining for Christians. Like the scriptures says creation is dying/waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God.

But unfortunately it's just an ideal, a wishful thinking just like other religions are.

Myer:


Bravo. You've said it all.
Am I anti-Christian though? That's a bit of a stretch.
I'm simply against the pseudo-christianity that abounds.

My simple question ergo is how come "mature Christians" with theological background still don't agree on the bible nor exhibit the power there in?
Neither in love nor working of miracles as promised in the scriptures, take you for example.

Ephesians 3:17-19
That Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Do you understand this scripture?
Do you comprehend what this alone would accomplish if it were a reality in the lives of Christian's?

The bible is full of these promises but not realistic.
The truth is the world is pining for Christians. Like the scriptures says creation is dying/waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God.

But unfortunately it's just an ideal, a wishful thinking just like other religions are.

I use that term to describe people who make it a point of duty to make the Christian walk difficult for Christians. A lot of the people that I have debated or otherwise discussed with on this platform qualify for the appellate, so I address them by it. I'm happy to drop it in your case, if I could be persuaded that your mission is merely to examine what we believe and not cause problems for us.

I already answered that question, didn't I? One thing I really dislike doing is repeating things that I have written. If this were an oral discussion, I would understand if you missed some things that I said, but it is written, so unless I simply failed to make myself clear the first time, it is hard to understand why I have to answer a question or argument so many times. But I'll try again: as long as Christians are in this mortal body, they are going to be imperfect. That imperfection is going to affect their unity in the Truth, because some people will believe some errors while others will believe other errors. But mature believers actually agree on the most fundamental doctrines of the Bible - that is the meaning of spiritual maturity, after all, namely confident knowledge of all that the Bible teaches as a system of truth. The things that they disagree on are not that big of a deal. Paul promised believers through the Holy Spirit that when we are resurrected and no longer have to deal with the trouble of this flesh, we will see everything for what it is. At that point, our unity in the Truth will become perfect.

I don't know anything in the Bible that teaches that we are promised that we will work miracles (unless you mean bringing others to Salvation, which is hardly our own doing anyway). As for love, I wonder what you are talking about here.

Yes, in fact, I understand that Scripture. I also know what it would accomplish and that is why I have a mission to call fellow believers to the pursuit of spiritual growth.

I have no idea what you mean by "not realistic."

Creation is going to travail for a little longer. It is only at the resurrection of the Church that its longing will be satisfied, just as the passage in Romans 8 that you refer to says.

You're certainly welcome to your beliefs. I can't help what choices you prefer to make. But the fact that you believe that this whole thing that the Bible speaks of is merely an "ideal" that is unrealistic does not make it true.