@Thehomer; what did the Olodumare worshipers called themselves, if sango worshipers were known as onisangos?

you can't leave a mere statement on the table without any support, and expect us not to ask you to provide any supporting proof.


It is a fact that Olodumare is not a new word or idea among the yorubas. tell us who the earliest yorubas took Olodumare for. did the worship Him directly without going through any lesser god? if they worshiped Him directly, what were they called, since sango worshipers were onisangos?

if they worshiped Him through lesser god or gods, give us the name or names of the lesser god/s, while you let us know in addition if Olodumare was the Supreme God by their concept, and what did they call themselves?


If vadexcool is yoruba [i think he is], i as a yoruba muslim says Olodumare to him, he knows that i am talking about Allah. so where is your rational, for saying Allah is not Olodumare? when a yoruba muslim family names the new born Olorunfemi, does it mean the same Olorunfemi of the new born of the christian family across the street?


my Olodumare is different from that of animist, and that of christian is completely different. Should i drop the name as a yoruba because an animist uses the same name? are you arguing that yorubas do not believe in a One God Who creates, and He being Invisible, since He is not being represented by a figurine, while the youbas believed that somebody actually descended from heaven?

thehomer:

What proxies? It seems you're very confused.

No you claimed you could not see a thinking process being developed, which indicates a sign that you might not not be seeing well that is why I took it you were using a proxy to read.

thehomer:

This is a terrible attempt at covering up your error. Why didn't you simply accept the mistake you made rather than trying to turn it into something else? Could this be pride?

Could this be blindness? as I clearly wrote :

vedaxcool:


Actually is syncretism I was trying to write

thehomer:

Pastor AIO has made a pertinent correction which is that Olodumare was not worshipped via lesser Gods. You also need to consider the other characters associated with this entity e.g Obatala, Oduduwa and others. What is their place with Allah and Jehovah?
With respect to the Middle Eastern religions, one can easily see the relationships especially when we consider the fact that the characters are similar and bear similar names, performed similar deeds etc.In the Nigerian context, there are huge differences and little to no similarities between the entities of Olodumare and Chukwu yet they are not as geographically distant as the important regions in the Middle East.
Sure they are seen as supreme beings but so also were Chukwu, Shiva, Waheguru, Brahman etc. So what? It seems you also wish to ignore the other entities associated with these Gods.

if asked you what is the english name for Oludumare what will be you answer?

Again What makes what your protege PrastorAIO statement any truer than what I or anybody wrote? As it appears he also "mistakes" God for Oludumare betraying you ignoble attempt at separating the two.
Yet you were shouing about the worship of lesser gods, yet you change position without anouncement(well subtly he did)

The descendants of this culture who migrated from the Nile valley and great lakes region over period of generations became known as the Yoruba of Southwestern Nigeria in West Africa whose cultural practices were and still are deeply submerged in ancestral veneration. Despite the emergence of Christian missionaries and Islamic Jihads there still resides within this cultural context the traditional Yoruba’s belief system is known as Ifa acknowledging the creator, Oludumare through the essence of nature. Oludumare` the creator force birthed the heavens into existence, thus bringing into existence the extensions of the creator; better known as Orisha.

A practice consisting of the acknowledgment of the creator through the forces of nature. Within the elements of earth wind water and fire there exist an entire pantheon of African deities known as Orisha, the indwelling spirit of consciousness that plays a significant role from the heavens in the daily lives of the practioners of the spiritual traditions of Ifa; The Yoruba believe that it is Orisha who guides the consciousness of an individual. It is said that there exist 400 Orisha; facets of nature which are earthly representations of the cosmos; heavenly energies, and therefore nothing exist or happens in the sky that does not have its influence or vibration on earth within nature’s elements and also in human behavior.

http://ileifa.org/west-africas-orisha-and-astrology/

I wonder how this acknowledgment of Oludumare occurred without the worship of his "extensions" the orisha?

The following need to taken note of:

That Polytheism leads to less worship of the actual Creator/Supreme Being, lets take a look at the Protestants who whenever they worship they say in the name of Jesus, in fact the in Christianity the worship of revovles around Jesus more than God himself, in catholism the worship is more on saints and Jesus than God himself. We can simply take note that polytheism gradually leads to the abandoment of the Core diety the Supreme Being for worship of the lesser beings, this probably occurred over time the Yoruba Traditinal religion as time went by. A closer look at how Jesus worship, you will note it was all of direct worship of he Supreme Being than the Worship worship pin himself. As I have pointed out a lot of tory could have been lost down the millenia, that is not far fetched at all. Look at Budhism, It is atheistic in itself, yet reading the belief system shows that there is God, though not acknowledged, that iis there is a claim that when a man dies, if he does good h would be reincarnated as a man if he does Bad he will be reincarnated as an animal, the question becomes what mechanism determine whether or not some is good or bad, that there must be a supernatural mechanism in place, this leaves space for a divine being. in essence certain religion are quite old and down the line vital information must have been lost and replaced. Look at the OT where 2/3 of the authors are actually unknow people, in fact experts simply speculate on the possible writer of these books, using probably and likely, maybes, and yet the OT is written record talkless of oral traditions over the century.

Again simply because you prefer selctive reading of materials, here are some facts about hinduism that are unknown to you:

BHAGAVAD GITA

   The most popular amongst all the Hindu scriptures is the Bhagavad Gita.

   Consider the following verse from the Gita:

   "Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures."
                      [Bhagavad Gita 7:20]

   The Gita states that people who are materialistic worship demigods i.e. ‘gods’ besides the True God.




UPANISHADS:

The Upanishads are considered sacred scriptures by the Hindus.

The following verses from the Upanishads refer to the Concept of God:

  1.

     "Ekam evadvitiyam"
     "He is One only without a second."
             [Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1]1
  2.

     "Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah."
     "Of Him there are neither parents nor lord."
              [Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9]2
  3.

     "Na tasya pratima asti"
     "There is no likeness of Him."
             [Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:19]3
  4.

     The following verses from the Upanishad allude to the inability of man to imagine God in a particular form:

     "Na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam."

     "His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye."
             [Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:20]4

This clearly refutes the Idolatry aspect of Hinduism that you joyfully use to defend you misconception of a being that is beyound your ability to comprehend with your prejudiced mind.


Explaining Divinity to an atheist is like explaining how candy is made to a baby, it seems the blind part of your Polemic is emerging rapidly, my post contains the following that is, Islam clearly states that ALLAH is the supreme being, Oludumare = Supreme being, ALLAH=Oludumare, now for you to state in one thread that so and so religion copied it's  from so and so religion and based on their similarities they all copied a pagan diety, now also based on the similarities between the nature of ALLAH = the SUPREME BEING THEN oLUDUMARE sUPREME BEING, BOTH ARE REGARDED AS THE CREATOR OF UNIVERSE, and unless you leave this intellectual hypocrisy of yours thatis selectie in nature you will always wander hapless till the very end. As

thehomer:

What you are actually implying is that what we know as the Yoruba mythology is probably wrong due to the difference with Islam.

Sighs, shakes  head twice, What you are saying is the above, what I am saying is that vital information must have been lost due to certain perceivable lapses in the Mythology, that is the way Oludumare is apparently placed on the background and his "extensions" are worshiped instead. this is plain common sense, when Information is passed along the timeline( I know you love that word) through oral channels information is lost and even altered it is commonsense, again in the Yoruba mythology on creation there are at least two account I have come across, this simple contradiction makes a case against it. There are so many

thehomer:

Yes I have. But, what was it prior to the current myths? Can you show the culture these concepts were borrowed from?

No you haven't, cause if you had you would not engage in such circular argument.
The prior myths is this, refer back to the tread "history of God' you claimed the Jews borrowed Yaweh from the Canaanites, please could you show us what as the prior God before Yaweh, Cause this question misses commonsense ten times over, it is like asking where is the very first bible the Jews used prior to the one they are currently using, you can come better than that

thehomer:

You have it right. And from history, we can tell that Christianity and Islam were able to work best when they originally got into the region.
No that's not what I'm saying. I'm simply pointing out that due to syncretism, the previous generations of Nigerians were better able to adopt these alternate concepts of God. The fact that this happened does not mean that the Gods were the same since from their mythologies, we can tell that they were not the same.

Honestly I don't understand what u are trying to say here.

I really hope you're not trying to demonstrate how the average Muslim reasons.[quote][/quote]

Talk about a Mud Pond calling a stream muddy.

Sweetnecta:

@Thehomer; what did the Olodumare worshipers called themselves, if sango worshipers were known as onisangos?

you can't leave a mere statement on the table without any support, and expect us not to ask you to provide any supporting proof.


It is a fact that Olodumare is not a new word or idea among the yorubas. tell us who the earliest yorubas took Olodumare for. did the worship Him directly without going through any lesser god? if they worshiped Him directly, what were they called, since sango worshipers were onisangos?

if they worshiped Him through lesser god or gods, give us the name or names of the lesser god/s, while you let us know in addition if Olodumare was the Supreme God by their concept, and what did they call themselves?

They called themselves Yorubas.

Sweetnecta:

If vadexcool is yoruba [i think he is], i as a yoruba muslim says Olodumare to him, he knows that i am talking about Allah. so where is your rational, for saying Allah is not Olodumare? when a yoruba muslim family names the new born Olorunfemi, does it mean the same Olorunfemi of the new born of the christian family across the street?


my Olodumare is different from that of animist, and that of christian is completely different. Should i drop the name as a yoruba because an animist uses the same name? are you arguing that yorubas do not believe in a One God Who creates, and He being Invisible, since He is not being represented by a figurine, while the youbas believed that somebody actually descended from heaven?

This simply helps point out what I'm saying. The previous Yorubas that lived at Ile-Ife in the 1400s did not worship the Allah of the Muslims, they worshiped Olodumare. The knowledge of Allah arrived in the Yoruba region and through syncretism, the word "Olodumare" now came to refer to Allah to the Yorubas who adopted Islam, it referred to Yahweh to the Yorubas who adopted Christianity and still referred to the previous Olodumare to those who did not accept foreign religions. So we have three Gods being referred to by one name depending on the people communicating.

vedaxcool:

No you claimed you could not see a thinking process being developed, which indicates a sign that you might not not be seeing well that is why I took it you were using a proxy to read.

My my the confusion continues. The fact that you are unable to demonstrate coherent thought does not mean another person requires a proxy to read.

vedaxcool:

Could this be blindness? as I clearly wrote :

Then why were you deluding yourself into detecting syncopated rhythms in my writing?

vedaxcool:

if asked you what is the english name for Oludumare what will be you answer?

This is yet another dumb question. This is similar to asking what is the English name for Tunde. (Note: not the meaning but the English name)

vedaxcool:

Again What makes what your protege PrastorAIO statement any truer than what I or anybody wrote? As it appears he also "mistakes" God for Oludumare betraying you ignoble attempt at separating the two.
Yet you were shouing about the worship of lesser gods, yet you change position without anouncement(well subtly he did)

My protege? I'll advice you to actually try to look up words in a dictionary before using them to be sure that you're using them correctly.

vedaxcool:

The descendants of this culture who migrated from the Nile valley and great lakes region over period of generations became known as the Yoruba of Southwestern Nigeria in West Africa whose cultural practices were and still are deeply submerged in ancestral veneration. Despite the emergence of Christian missionaries and Islamic Jihads there still resides within this cultural context the traditional Yoruba’s belief system is known as Ifa acknowledging the creator, Oludumare through the essence of nature. Oludumare` the creator force birthed the heavens into existence, thus bringing into existence the extensions of the creator; better known as Orisha.

A practice consisting of the acknowledgment of the creator through the forces of nature. Within the elements of earth wind water and fire there exist an entire pantheon of African deities known as Orisha, the indwelling spirit of consciousness that plays a significant role from the heavens in the daily lives of the practioners of the spiritual traditions of Ifa; The Yoruba believe that it is Orisha who guides the consciousness of an individual. It is said that there exist 400 Orisha; facets of nature which are earthly representations of the cosmos; heavenly energies, and therefore nothing exist or happens in the sky that does not have its influence or vibration on earth within nature’s elements and also in human behavior.

http://ileifa.org/west-africas-orisha-and-astrology/

I wonder how this acknowledgment of Oludumare occurred without the worship of his "extensions" the orisha?

The following need to taken note of:

That Polytheism leads to less worship of the actual Creator/Supreme Being, lets take a look at the Protestants who whenever they worship they say in the name of Jesus, in fact the in Christianity the worship of revovles around Jesus more than God himself, in catholism the worship is more on saints and Jesus than God himself. We can simply take note that polytheism gradually leads to the abandoment of the Core diety the Supreme Being for worship of the lesser beings, this probably occurred over time the Yoruba Traditinal religion as time went by. A closer look at how Jesus worship, you will note it was all of direct worship of he Supreme Being than the Worship worship pin himself. As I have pointed out a lot of tory could have been lost down the millenia, that is not far fetched at all. Look at Budhism, It is atheistic in itself, yet reading the belief system shows that there is God, though not acknowledged, that iis there is a claim that when a man dies, if he does good h would be reincarnated as a man if he does Bad he will be reincarnated as an animal, the question becomes what mechanism determine whether or not some is good or bad, that there must be a supernatural mechanism in place, this leaves space for a divine being. in essence certain religion are quite old and down the line vital information must have been lost and replaced. Look at the OT where 2/3 of the authors are actually unknow people, in fact experts simply speculate on the possible writer of these books, using probably and likely, maybes, and yet the OT is written record talkless of oral traditions over the century.

Again simply because you prefer selctive reading of materials, here are some facts about hinduism that are unknown to you:

BHAGAVAD GITA

   The most popular amongst all the Hindu scriptures is the Bhagavad Gita.

   Consider the following verse from the Gita:

   "Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures."
                      [Bhagavad Gita 7:20]

   The Gita states that people who are materialistic worship demigods i.e. ‘gods’ besides the True God.




UPANISHADS:

The Upanishads are considered sacred scriptures by the Hindus.

The following verses from the Upanishads refer to the Concept of God:

  1.

     "Ekam evadvitiyam"
     "He is One only without a second."
             [Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1]1
  2.

     "Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah."
     "Of Him there are neither parents nor lord."
              [Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9]2
  3.

     "Na tasya pratima asti"
     "There is no likeness of Him."
             [Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:19]3
  4.

     The following verses from the Upanishad allude to the inability of man to imagine God in a particular form:

     "Na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam."

     "His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye."
             [Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:20]4

This clearly refutes the Idolatry aspect of Hinduism that you joyfully use to defend you misconception of a being that is beyound your ability to comprehend with your prejudiced mind.

How does anything you've posted above contradict what I said? You must really like copying and pasting.

vedaxcool:

Explaining Divinity to an atheist is like explaining how candy is made to a baby, it seems the blind part of your Polemic is emerging rapidly, my post contains the following that is, Islam clearly states that ALLAH is the supreme being, Oludumare = Supreme being, ALLAH=Oludumare, now for you to state in one thread that so and so religion copied it's  from so and so religion and based on their similarities they all copied a pagan diety, now also based on the similarities between the nature of ALLAH = the SUPREME BEING THEN oLUDUMARE sUPREME BEING, BOTH ARE REGARDED AS THE CREATOR OF UNIVERSE, and unless you leave this intellectual hypocrisy of yours thatis selectie in nature you will always wander hapless till the very end. As

You still fail to understand. If Allah = Olodumare, who were Allah's Esu, Ogun and Sango?

vedaxcool:

Sighs, shakes  head twice, What you are saying is the above, what I am saying is that vital information must have been lost due to certain perceivable lapses in the Mythology, that is the way Oludumare is apparently placed on the background and his "extensions" are worshiped instead. this is plain common sense, when Information is passed along the timeline( I know you love that word) through oral channels information is lost and even altered it is commonsense, again in the Yoruba mythology on creation there are at least two account I have come across, this simple contradiction makes a case against it. There are so many

Hmm I see someone's been reading my posts. Good.
Vital information lost? Like Ogun's ability to control metal?

vedaxcool:

No you haven't, cause if you had you would not engage in such circular argument.
The prior myths is this, refer back to the tread "history of God' you claimed the Jews borrowed Yaweh from the Canaanites, please could you show us what as the prior God before Yaweh, Cause this question misses commonsense ten times over, it is like asking where is the very first bible the Jews used prior to the one they are currently using, you can come better than that

What was circular about my argument? I still don't see the relationship between what I pointed out there and the point I'm making here because what I'm pointing out is that Allah is not the same as Olodumare due to the huge differences noted in these two Gods and their relationships.

vedaxcool:

Honestly I don't understand what u are trying to say here.

I really hope you're not trying to demonstrate how the average Muslim reasons.

Talk about a Mud Pond calling a stream muddy.

Try reading it slowly. Or see the post I made above. I really hope that would help in clarifying it. If it doesn't, then point out what you actually do not understand.

^^^^^^

When a man is to dumb to ANSWER QEUSTION AT LEAST SAY PASS RATHER THAN SAY UMBELLA yOUR RESPONSE ONLY SHWS HOW VASTLY AND WHOLLY IGNORANT YOU ACTUALLY ARE of what is being discoursed again he changed position on the same thing tiwce, first he claims that Ouldumare was worshipped via lesser gods then he said no I agree with pastoraio no lesser gods involved then now he is saying Veda you are sayig what I have been saying, it is always a problem arguing with a mediocre.

@Thehomer; « #66 on: Yesterday at 11:12:21 PM »
[Quote]Quote from: Sweetnecta on Yesterday at 10:52:28 PM
@Thehomer; what did the Olodumare worshipers called themselves, if sango worshipers were known as onisangos?

you can't leave a mere statement on the table without any support, and expect us not to ask you to provide any supporting proof.


It is a fact that Olodumare is not a new word or idea among the yorubas. tell us who the earliest yorubas took Olodumare for. did the worship Him directly without going through any lesser god? if they worshiped Him directly, what were they called, since sango worshipers were onisangos?

if they worshiped Him through lesser god or gods, give us the name or names of the lesser god/s, while you let us know in addition if Olodumare was the Supreme God by their concept, and what did they call themselves?

They called themselves Yorubas.[/Quote]if the yorubas addressed Olodumare directly without the lesser gods, they have imitated Ibrahim [as]. those yorubas are hanifans, another word for Muslims. you didn't know that or did you? muslims are called many names, including, hanifan, subirun, sadiqun, ghafirun, etc [consult the Quran] including muminu.

As i refuse to either support or refute previous discussion, in my opinion the notion of lesser gods is Greek. I know of heroes, sages, priests, divine ministers, deities, divinities, e.t.c but lesser gods in my opinion is merely a false positive. Olodumare is much more than anyone school of thought, Infinite in state., Indefatiguable, Ruler of the heavens, Lord of revelations,  trust me, i can go on and on and on.

Even though you mightnt see things from my point of view the truth is that which was, is now and shall always be, IS. Not all deities are divinities, meaning

---

there are Orisha and there are Orisha. For instance, one's household Orisha is rightfully so; yet the term is mainly reserved for the primordial. What we in the West of the continent take for granted is what the South Americans are running away with. Its like a strange case of musical chairs, we have other peoples religion (Or do we?) and others have ours (Or do they?).

I grew up under the impression that ones culture/tradition is the main force behind ones school of thought (atleast it should be). Olodumare in multi-lateral Glory IS not Yoruba, English, Latin, Chinesse or Greek e.t.c, yet reaches out to every corner of what we know to be universe; Is here, there and everywhere.

Oba ti nje Olu
Oba ti nje Olorun Oba
Oba ti nje Olodumare
Oba dugbedugbe bi igi adaro
Oba to tuwoka se  oun gbogbo fun awon eleran ara
Adeda
Aseda
Alewilese
Oba to gba agbara lowo alagbara
Oba to gba'de lowo Alade
Oloruko egbagbeje
Oba ti mbe ki bebe fun ara ti e to d'aiye
Bebe Nla
Al'obalebioro
Oba Ajiki
Oba Awoki
Oba Afaki
Oba Arinki
Oba Asaki
Oba Agunki
Oba Akoki
Oba Atoki
Okiki Ola
Okiki Oola
Afunilounjemap'ebi
Asorefunimagb'ege
Aj'oruko gbogbo, nibi gbogbo, l'ojo gbogbo
Agbomatepa,
Adagba-maparo-oye
Awuwomasegbe,
Agbomatepa

"Oba ti a ko le ki tan",

I wonder why Allah is not called Brahman in India.

Al-Khalid, the creator

Pastor AIO:

I wonder why Allah is not called Brahman in India.

In Hinduism, Brahman (ब्रह्मन् bráhman) is the one supreme, universal Spirit that is the origin and support of the phenomenal universe.[1] Brahman is sometimes referred to as the Absolute or Godhead[2] which is the Divine Ground[3] of the primordial Being Hiranyagarbha and all subsequent Creation. Brahman is conceived as personal (with qualities), impersonal (without qualities) and supreme depending on the philosophical school.

The word "Brahman" is traditionally derived from the verb ((brh)) (Sanskrit: to grow), and connotes greatness and infinity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman

"Say, ‘He is Allah, The One and Only; Allah, The Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not Nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him.’’’
[Al-Qur’an 112:1-4]

It is, to my mind, beyond cavil that there exist some clear similarities in the concept of God as delivered by the Jews, Muslims and Hindus. There are also differences.

However the theme of an eternal and absolute nature seems unshakeable in all of these traditions.

I think it is important to understand that notwithstanding that people have had tribal deities which they worshipped, and from which the names they gave to God arose, this has not stopped people from conceiving of the core attributes of the ultimate cause within their conception of GOD. Thus the names are altogether irrelevant, and what remains relevant is simply the collection of attributes which form a conception of the Godhead.

And in light of this -

"Olòrún is the Yorùbá name given to a singular being in theistic and deistic religions (and other belief systems), Who is either the sole entity in monotheism, or a single entity in polytheism. Eitherway, It is regarded as a Self-Existing Being.

Commonly addressed as Olódùmarè, It is often regarded as the infinite ruler of the heavens; all-encompassing, and said to be the owner of all heads. No gender is typically assigned. Hence, It is commomnly referred to as "It" or "They" (although this is meant to address a somewhat singularity). The divine creator and source of all energy, It is often thought to be the conduit through which the thoughts and actions of each person in "Ayé" (the world) interact with those of all other living things, including the universe itself.

Olòrún has also been variously conceived as being incorporeal, a personal being, the source of all moral obligation and the "greatest conceivable existent".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olodumare

- - - with regard to the highlighted portions of the above, i will find a very hard time agreeing with you that the same precepts are not at play in the conception of Olodumare as is within the conception of YHWH, Allah and Brahman.

That there are differences in conception is well acknowledged, but the core precept in all remains that of a self-existent, eternal, absolute element which is the origin of all things.

. . . The Oneness of Infinity. . .

thehomer:


The main point I'm making is that due to the difference in the characters involved with Olodumare, he cannot conceivably be the same entity as Allah.

You. Mr. Homer, are perceived differently by different people, are you not? You are also approached differently by different people, are you not? Indeed different people have different opinions about you, do they not? In fact, different people may well have different myths and legends about you, may they not?

Does any of the foregoing mean that you are not the same, ONE person referred to as thehomer?

Thus, the various myths, legends and dogmas about God, and the various differences in the way that people approach God, do not suffice to suggest that the same entity is not being referred to - for the simple reason as i stated in the foregoing post - namely that the idea remains centrally the same - to wit - a self-existent, eternal, absolute element which is the origin of all things.

Unless you can claim that this central idea is not common to Olodumare and Allah, then your arguments are rather pedantic.

vedaxcool:

^^^^^^

When a man is to dumb to ANSWER QEUSTION AT LEAST SAY PASS RATHER THAN SAY UMBELLA yOUR RESPONSE ONLY SHWS HOW VASTLY AND WHOLLY IGNORANT YOU ACTUALLY ARE of what is being discoursed again he changed position on the same thing tiwce, first he claims that Ouldumare was worshipped via lesser gods then he said no I agree with pastoraio no lesser gods involved then now he is saying Veda you are sayig what I have been saying, it is always a problem arguing with a mediocre.

My my. It seems that when you really have no points to present or when the discussion sails above your head, you simply regress to name calling and claiming that those who disagree are ignorant. Please let me know when you're finally able to read, comprehend and present ideas in English.

Sweetnecta:

@Thehomer; « #66 on: Yesterday at 11:12:21 PM »if the yorubas addressed Olodumare directly without the lesser gods, they have imitated Ibrahim [as]. those yorubas are hanifans, another word for Muslims. you didn't know that or did you? muslims are called many names, including, hanifan, subirun, sadiqun, ghafirun, etc [consult the Quran] including muminu.

This sounds to me like an attempt to claim humanity in general as Muslims. This is simply inappropriate. Does this mean when Ibos worship Chukwu that they are Muslims? How about when Hindu worship Shiva does this make them Muslims too? This to me sounds like claiming that all humans are Nigerian citizens because it was written in our religious book.

Deep Sight:

You. Mr. Homer, are perceived differently by different people, are you not? You are also approached differently by different people, are you not? Indeed different people have different opinions about you, do they not? In fact, different people may well have different myths and legends about you, may they not?

Does any of the foregoing mean that you are not the same, ONE person referred to as thehomer?

Thus, the various myths, legends and dogmas about God, and the various differences in the way that people approach God, do not suffice to suggest that the same entity is not being referred to - for the simple reason as i stated in the foregoing post - namely that the idea remains centrally the same - to wit - a self-existent, eternal, absolute element which is the origin of all things.

Unless you can claim that this central idea is not common to Olodumare and Allah, then your arguments are rather pedantic.

That depends. Think of it this way. I am thehomer. A Greek citizen with one brother, one father, one mother and one son only. If someone approached you and mentioned that they met one thehomer with a father and mother and another set of adoptive parents who has one brother two sons and three daughters. Would you say they were referring to the same person?
So, I think the surrounding myths are important because it enables us to follow the way religions flow and become accepted even in cultures. Foreign to their origins.

thehomer:

That depends. Think of it this way. I am thehomer. A Greek citizen with one brother, one father, one mother and one son only. If someone approached you and mentioned that they met one thehomer with a father and mother and another set of adoptive parents who has one brother two sons and three daughters. Would you say they were referring to the same person?
So, I think the surrounding myths are important because it enables us to follow the way religions flow and become accepted even in cultures. Foreign to their origins.

.

Firstly, humanity is more complex and variegated that this. It could very well simply be that the person is ill informed about your relatives. Or that in his culture (African Culture for example) the definition of a sibling extends to everybody from the same village. So perspectives like that abound and could easily create the seeming differences you refer to. At all events even if some people are entirely wrong in their information about you on some, matters, that would not change the fact that it is still you they are discussing, would it?

Secondly, and more importantly, it is actually not possible in this case for you to use such an example because the core defining qualities which i referred to are very unique and not to be found in any random person strolling down the street. They could only possibly refer to one thing - - - the cause of the universe.

Remember the qualities i mentioned which they all share: a self-existent, eternal, absolute element which is the origin of all things.

These are qualities that are unique to that entity percieved as teh eternal creator, and as such you cannot realistically assert that they are all referring to different entities.

[Quote]« #71 on: Today at 11:00:47 AM »

I wonder why Allah is not called Brahman in India.[/Quote]Why Allah is called Allah by Muslim Indians, in Mumbai, the Hindus in the same country call Him Brahman, as long as He is not the Deity that they represent by any statue.


Why Allah not Brahman to the Muslim Indians is because they are not Hindus by religion.

However, if there is an original Name that all the people of the Indo-pakistanian subconyinent calls The Unrepresented by statue Creator, the muslims when speaking their language among themselves may say it to mean Allah of Islam. it will be similar to Olodumare that i will mention to another yoruba muslim, or the Chineke that an igbo muslim will say to another muslim.

Deep Sight has explained just as much as anyone could about Allah being Olodumare or Yahweh, Chineke, Ubangiji, etc to those who speak the language.

Deep Sight:

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Firstly, humanity is more complex and variegated that this. It could very well simply be that the person is ill informed about your relatives. Or that in his culture (African Culture for example) the definition of a sibling extends to everybody from the same village. So perspectives like that abound and could easily create the seeming differences you refer to. At all events even if some people are entirely wrong in their information about you on some, matters, that would not change the fact that it is still you they are discussing, would it?

Or he could simply be referring to someone else.

Deep Sight:

Secondly, and more importantly, it is actually not possible in this case for you to use such an example because the core defining qualities which i referred to are very unique and not to be found in any random person strolling down the street. They could only possibly refer to one thing - - - the cause of the universe.

Remember the qualities i mentioned which they all share: a self-existent, eternal, absolute element which is the origin of all things.

These are qualities that are unique to that entity percieved as teh eternal creator, and as such you cannot realistically assert that they are all referring to different entities.

The problem here is that you simply assert that there must be one. Why can there not be two, four or twenty? Could it simply be because you like it that way? This to me has all the appearance of defining into being some entity whose concept of existence you like.

Deep Sight:

Remember the qualities i mentioned which they all share: a self-existent, eternal, absolute element which is the origin of all things.

These are qualities that are unique to that entity percieved as teh eternal creator, and as such you cannot realistically assert that they are all referring to different entities.

Actually he has unrealistically assert that they are different, clinging onto their perceive difference, Go around threads he has argued and you can't  help but acknowledge the "blind Argument" status of this guy, what ever his preconceived notions of things are, he desperately maintains such even in the face of uncertainty,In the thread History of God, His entire argument centered around similarities then, now it centers around differences in the face of startling similarities again to this thread and you can help but clap at his greatest Blind arguer in the world https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-577313.32.html#msg7533699. No amount of rational argument will make this "expert" in divinity open his mind to other possibilities. His case is clearly closed. But I will like to see what our "Expert" in Divinity will say.([size=4pt]Probably Another round of idle unintelligent rambles)[/size]

pagan (adj)1. having, being, or relating to religious beliefs, which are not part of any of the world's major religions. usage: this was the site of a pagan [/i]temple to the sun.
2.irreligious.
(noun)3. a person who does not belong to any of the world's major religions.
4. a person without any religion [Church Latin [i]paganus civilian (hence not a soldier of the Christ)].

Again this is foreign terminology that has little or NO credit outside of its maiden use. e.g its use in ancient middle east times during the infamous crusades e.t.c

Without naming names, i could fill this sheet with numerous sect that fall into (bullet point 1&3) of this lexicon definition that will simply not accomodate the use of this euphenism as any sort of qualification.

Question! (To those that seek comfort in this term) If you call someone that has a populous school of thought names like pagan, what do you call a free thinker?


Meanwhile, i'm not sugggesting this as a sort of defence because i'm in away shape or form taking offence to the use; but the use as in terms of meaning. One needs to make clear which definition is being used to play out specific point; is it that you accuse yourself of being irreligious Or? Just for discussion sake

Rather than say ''who is God?'' I think you guys have been discussing ''What is God?''

Each man or woman has been trying to describe ''God'' in line with his theological, academic, religeous or analytical perception. And that is why people express their differing opinions with such ferrocious passion - and yet fail to convince the others, who are themselves overtly opinionated.

I am a man. To my wife, a husband. To my kids, a father. To my mother, I'm son. One man, but perceived severally, yet differently. So is this God. He is perceived in many different dimensions, based on relationship with Him or based on our supposed knowledge of Him.

Even somewhere in the Bible, some people knew there was a God which they really don't know. For this reason the worshipped 'An Unknown God'. To them, that was how they perceived him, and they worshipped Him as such.

thehomer:

Or he could simply be referring to someone else.

FINE: so long as you accept that this, along with all other possibilities which i mentioned are all tenable possibilities, then i am happy with that.

So basically it could also be reference to the same person.

The problem here is that you simply assert that there must be one. Why can there not be two, four or twenty? Could it simply be because you like it that way? This to me has all the appearance of defining into being some entity whose concept of existence you like.

The word "origin" is perforce singular in this context.

Deep Sight:

FINE: so long as you accept that this, along with all other possibilities which i mentioned are all tenable possibilities, then i am happy with that.

So basically it could also be reference to the same person.

Of course that too could be a possibility.

Deep Sight:

The word "origin" is perforce singular in this context.

Why must it be singular? Why not multiple or none? To clarify, a person can trace their origin to four grand-parents while floating castles can be traced to no entities.

Allah however is a noun, the true Name of the One God Who is the Creator of all things. Allah had power over all things. so Olodumare, if that is what you call the Creator in this case, then yes, Allah is Olodumare. He is the Sustainer, Unique, existing alone before anything else long before the beginning. He has no parents or children. He never dies, never tired, never wary, never sleeps. He is capable all the time, while all depends on Him, He depends on no one,needing no assistance, full of Power and Might. Aware of all, Full of Knowledge.

pls, how did get by this "fact"?

YHWH is not a True Name. Did He ever say I am Yahweh, or YHWH?

I am Who I am is never going to pass for a proper Name. You must have agree on this. Kay may be your name, but Kay17 can't.

We already know that Jehovah is European make up, long after the fact.

Elah, Elo, etc are accented Allah.

Present any proof that Allah can't be what Adam knew God's Name to be.

I meant the character and works of Allah, how where you able determine that?

Sweetnecta:

YHWH is not a True Name. Did He ever say I am Yahweh, or YHWH?

I am Who I am is never going to pass for a proper Name. You must have agree on this. Kay may be your name, but Kay17 can't.

We already know that Jehovah is European make up, long after the fact.

Elah, Elo, etc are accented Allah.

Present any proof that Allah can't be what Adam knew God's Name to be.

Jehovah or JHVH is not the name of the Christian God? Then who are they worshipping?
Are you saying that God's name is Allah in the same way that the Nigerian president's name is Jonathan?

If Jonathan is the name of the President of Nigeria, rathan than GEJ, Allah is the Name of God The Singularly Unique Lord.

Jewish Arabs and Christian call Him Allah, too.

Sweetnecta:

If Jonathan is the name of the President of Nigeria, rathan than GEJ, Allah is the Name of God The Singularly Unique Lord.

Jewish Arabs and Christian call Him Allah, too.

Allah is his real name because that is the name that his mother called him on the day of his naming ceremony.

now i know that you are being jahaliah. so salaama. [surah furqan; verse very close to the end. in case you wish to learn].

Sweetnecta:

If Jonathan is the name of the President of Nigeria, rathan than GEJ, Allah is the Name of God The Singularly Unique Lord.

Jewish Arabs and Christian call Him Allah, too.

Like I said, when Jews and Christians say Allah, they are referring to Jehovah or JHVH.

literally allah means the god.al-lah
it is important to understand this in the context of the arabian penisula where many gods(lahs) were worshipped . the god or allah implies supremacy and the idea that there is no other. indeed the idea of no rival is so fundamental to islam that it is not negotiable in anyway also important is the idea that muhammad peace be upon him is the messenger of allah. we also know that allh chose to reveal his final message to man in arabic.
clearly this is quite form olodumare. we know that in this system of beliefs life began in ile-ife and yoruba is the language of olodumare primarily. we also know and believe in the existence of other deities that are subordinate to olodumare of whom olodumare is tolerant unlike allah who tolerates no competition. as the two concepts are close in terms of the idea of a supreme being olodumare or olorun is the usual rendering when allah is translated but they are quite different.olodumare for example does not speak of muhammad