At the end of the month, Ukraine would have been overrun by Russia, and Yanukovitch, the rep of the Russian side of the Ukranian political bloc, would take over

And the cycle would begin again.

The thing is, what is happening in Ukraine is first and foremost, a fight between two political blocs. The bloc winning now is the pro-Russia bloc, while the bloc losing is the pro-Western bloc, and both sides have brought their backers into the fight.

Now the Russian bloc has won, and the Western bloc is in the retreat.

That is why Nigerians should stay out of this fight. This is two blocs fighting each other. Politics intersecting with domestic issues.

Next time, the West would use subtle methods, and knock out the Russians. and the cycle would repeat.

backbencher:
At the end of the month, Ukraine would have been overrun by Russia, and Yanukovitch, the rep of the Russian side of the Ukranian political bloc, would take over

And the cycle would begin again.

The thing is, what is happening in Ukraine is first and foremost, a fight between two political blocs. The bloc winning now is the pro-Russia bloc, while the bloc losing is the pro-Western bloc, and both sides have brought their backers into the fight.

Now the Russian bloc has won, and the Western bloc is in the retreat.

That is why Nigerians should stay out of this fight. This is two blocs fighting each other. Politics intersecting with domestic issues.

Next time, the West would use subtle methods, and knock out the Russians. and the cycle would repeat.

You need to define what a win is

Is it Putin installing a puppet president in Ukraine that will be tormented by rebel groups with global resistance and finally ousted from office

Or a Russian economy that will be in real tatters in just few weeks resulting in an uprising that will eventually oust Putin from office

Or in your world….. what does a Putin win be eventually ?

Your opinion?

That's when you know the nagative side if USA.......you will see rebels everyday, leading to another revolution.....Niqqa would be ejected out of office.

Flets:


You need to define what a win is

Is it Putin installing a puppet president in Ukraine that will be tormented by rebel groups with global resistance and finally ousted from office

Or a Russian economy that will be in real tatters in just few weeks resulting in an uprising that will eventually oust Putin from office

Or in your world….. what does a Putin win be eventually ?

To be frank, I honestly don't know what a Putin win means.

Short term, it means him taking over Ukraine, and putting his boys in charge. Long term, it just means that in some ten years, the pro-NATO bloc takes over again, and the cycle continues.

Too early to say.

Russian economy is already in soup without this invasion...too much dependent on exporting oil and gas.

respect80:
Your opinion?

It is for now. But to the honest, it is too too early to say whether this is another Afghanistan-like situation, or just another 'typical conquest'

Anyway, me, I am just 'siddon look', In my opinion, both sides have a point.

This discussion topic is oddly devoid of personal insults and features highly informed rejoinders that are totally out of place in this forum.

Accordingly, I shall now consult The Oracle to determine the immediate and remote causes of this anomaly, before charting a course of action.

Flets:


You need to define what a win is

Is it Putin installing a puppet president in Ukraine that will be tormented by rebel groups with global resistance and finally ousted from office

Or a Russian economy that will be in real tatters in just few weeks resulting in an uprising that will eventually oust Putin from office

Or in your world….. what does a Putin win be eventually ?

You underrate putin with this statement

Flets:


You need to define what a win is

Is it Putin installing a puppet president in Ukraine that will be tormented by rebel groups with global resistance and finally ousted from office

Or a Russian economy that will be in real tatters in just few weeks resulting in an uprising that will eventually oust Putin from office

Or in your world….. what does a Putin win be eventually ?

Leave the op jare, he is clueless like Putin. We will be waiting for the end of the month where Putin installs his puppet.

Jakumo:
This discussion topic is oddly devoid of personal insults and features highly informed rejoinders that are totally out of place in this forum.

Accordingly, I shall now consult The Oracle to determine the immediate and remote causes of this anomaly, before charting a course of action.

It's just another typical European war. Like all the wars they have been fighting for centuries, and eventually in five decades, another war for children in school to memorize and pass exams with. Nothing to get heated about.

SocialJustice:
Leave the op jare, he is clueless like Putin. We will be waiting for the end of the month where Putin installs his puppet.

Kind of early to say how this plays out.

I expect Putin to install his puppet, however, it is possible that the current peace moves (already there are talks in Belarus, and eg rumors that Abramovitch of Chelski is doing some back channel moves to get people talking peace)..may lead to some sort of settlement, or stalemante ('everyone maintains the territory they conquered at the point of the ceasefire', to allow more time for talks situation)

Even then, whoever wins, it does not bother me (I kind of think that both sides have a point, which is why I am not taking a side. I just think that Russia winning millitarily is inevitable, since NATO has basically declined to help Ukraine more actively). What bothers me is that this does not end with some form of nuclear exchange (like I told someone I know, I don't trust mankind with nuclear weapons.)..otherwise, I just they siddon look. Another war, another day. It's just Ukraine and Russia's turn now.

I have seen EU and the West creating no fly zone over Ukraine week to come. This I have SEEN.

Toktee:
I have seen EU and the West creating no fly zone over Ukraine week to come. This I have SEEN.

That means in principle that they would have to shoot down Russian planes to enforce such a no-fly zone...which means war.

backbencher:


That means in principle that they would have to shoot down Russian planes to enforce such a no-fly zone...which means war.

My brother.. The West and EU can never allow Putin win this war.

backbencher:


That means in principle that they would have to shoot down Russian planes to enforce such a no-fly zone...which means war.

Very high risks, I must say.

Toktee:
My brother.. The West and EU can never allow Putin win this war.

For now they can only sell weapons to ukraine. Not actively interfere

(Ukraine is not part of eu or NATO otherwise this would be a different story)

All in all, let nobody use nukes. That is my own

backbencher:


For now they can only sell weapons to ukraine. Not actively interfere

(Ukraine is not part of eu or NATO otherwise this would be a different story)

All in all, let nobody use nukes. That is my own

There is no longer such a thing as a "limited" nuclear exchange, so your concerns that such a line should never be crossed are valid for sure.

NATO would rather stand back and observe Mad Vlad grab Ukraine as a new territory in his fiefdom, than engage Vlad's fighter jets in dogfights that could swiftly degenerate into a nuclear exchange that would essentially wipe out all life in the USA, Western Europe, Russia, and the entire planet, in no particular order.

I see the west winning this battle no matter what the out come is.The West don't care if putin installs his puppet, I think that's what they want.They will sell weapons to the rebels and as time goes on, and the sanctions remains, russia's economy crumbles and ukraine becomes another Afghanistan.

ObamaMessi:
I see the west winning this battle no matter what the out come is.The West don't care if putin installs his puppet, I think that's what they want.They will sell weapons to the rebels and as time goes on, and the sanctions remains, russia's economy crumbles and ukraine becomes another Afghanistan.

That's a possibility, but again, let's see how this plays out. (chronic crisis in Ukraine can lead to a refugee problem that the EU may not be able to cope with. )

backbencher:


That's a possibility, but again, let's see how this plays out. (chronic crisis in Ukraine can lead to a refugee problem that the EU may not be able to cope with. )

If the point we agreed is a possibility, the West must have done their calculation.Those people are smart.But as you said, let's see how this play(s) out.

Flets:



Or in your world….. what does a Putin win be eventually ?

The biggest losers are 1) the Ukrainian people whose nation is devastated requiring billions of dollars and decades of rebuilding. 2) American foreign policy of intervention and adventurism. Yes the Russian economy has taken a beaten, all economy in war time must take a beating, sanctions or not, wars are also not cheap. This war shows how weak and impotent the west is against Russia. The economy is not suffering as a direct result of sanctions but as a result of speculations. What does Russia sell? Energy and weapons. Do you know NORD stream1 is still fully functional( NORD STREAM 2 never started operations in the first place), same with turk stream despite all the sanctions noise? There is simply no replacement for more than 50 billion cubic of gas anywhere. Have you wondered how despite all the noise about SWIFT, it only target seven banks, who actually do not need it for messaging within Russia, since Russia has an in-country messaging for transfers. The banks via which they pay for energy were all carefully exempted. Is this not hypocrisy? Apart from America and European partners, most of South America, Eurasia, Asia, save for japan and SK are not in tandem with sanctions and will continue to do bussiness with the Russians. What other sanctions is there to talk about? Seizures of Russian oligarchs investments in Europe and America, very laughable because the Americans and European allies have more to lose here, the bulk of western investments in Russia is far superior with alot of corporations investing in energy and steel. E.g. British petroleum just quit and lost over 25b investment portfolio, remind me how much Chelsea is worth again? The only thing the west will achieve is the ban on trade with dollar( Russia’s biggest trading partner is China and settlement is mostly in national currency) and the policy of isolation since most countries are yes men to American foreign policy. But surely at the end of the war,the economy would have weathered the shock and begin a recovery with government intervention, Europe would still continue to buy energy from Russia, which shows the impotency of the sanctions. What becomes of Ukraine? Still not a NATO country, economy already died since last year just from speculations of impending war, still indebted, now in ruins, begins a rebuilding that would take another 20 to 30 years to finish. Did I hear someone say the west would fund the rebuild? Go and ask Iraq how far their rebuild has gone despite all the promises! What about the loss of civilian lives, forget the soldiers, they signed up to die someday in war. Ukraine lost out so much for putting their nation in the hands of a comedian. Ukraine has simply lost, no magic!!!

princeeze1:
The biggest losers are 1) the Ukrainian people whose nation is devastated requiring billions of dollars and decades of rebuilding. 2) American foreign policy of intervention and adventurism. Yes the Russian economy has taken a beaten, all economy in war time must take a beating, sanctions or not, wars are also not cheap. This war shows how weak and impotent the west is against Russia. The economy is not suffering as a direct result of sanctions but as a result of speculations. What does Russia sell? Energy and weapons. Do you know NORD stream1 is still fully functional( NORD STREAM 2 never started operations in the first place), same with turk stream despite all the sanctions noise? There is simply no replacement for more than 50 billion cubic of gas anywhere. Have you wondered how despite all the noise about SWIFT, it only target seven banks, who actually do not need it for messaging within Russia, since Russia has an in-country messaging for transfers. The banks via which they pay for energy were all carefully exempted. Is this not hypocrisy? Apart from America and European partners, most of South America, Eurasia, Asia, save for japan and SK are not in tandem with sanctions and will continue to do bussiness with the Russians. What other sanctions is there to talk about? Seizures of Russian oligarchs investments in Europe and America, very laughable because the Americans and European allies have more to lose here, the bulk of western investments in Russia is far superior with alot of corporations investing in energy and steel. E.g. British petroleum just quit and lost over 25b investment portfolio, remind me how much Chelsea is worth again? The only thing the west will achieve is the ban on trade with dollar( Russia’s biggest trading partner is China and settlement is mostly in national currency) and the policy of isolation since most countries are yes men to American foreign policy. But surely at the end of the war,the economy would have weathered the shock and begin a recovery with government intervention, Europe would still continue to buy energy from Russia, which shows the impotency of the sanctions. What becomes of Ukraine? Still not a NATO country, economy already died since last year just from speculations of impending war, still indebted, now in ruins, begins a rebuilding that would take another 20 to 30 years to finish. Did I hear someone say the west would fund the rebuild? Go and ask Iraq how far their rebuild has gone despite all the promises! What about the loss of civilian lives, forget the soldiers, they signed up to die someday in war. Ukraine lost out so much for putting their nation in the hands of a comedian. Ukraine has simply lost, no magic!!!

Well written.

Flets:


You need to define what a win is

Is it Putin installing a puppet president in Ukraine that will be tormented by rebel groups with global resistance and finally ousted from office

Or a Russian economy that will be in real tatters in just few weeks resulting in an uprising that will eventually oust Putin from office

Or in your world….. what does a Putin win be eventually ?

You have said it all.. Noting to add Sir

Deffjam:
That's when you know the nagative side if USA.......you will see rebels everyday, leading to another revolution.....Niqqa would be ejected out of office.

They have done before and they are waiting patiently to see the end game of the Russians.. And have it in mind that the only countries that will recognize this new president in Europe will be Russia and Belarus... So Putin will have to be practically spoon feeding his puppet, providing security against several rebel groups that will spring up... While still battling with an economy in dust because of sanctions... It will be a matter of time before the Russians will rise up against him..

backbencher:


It's just another typical European war. Like all the wars they have been fighting for centuries, and eventually in five decades, another war for children in school to memorize and pass exams with. Nothing to get heated about.

Bros na wah for you oh

Frankiss44:


Bros na wah for you oh

Eh now, war na war.

Serious matter today, obscure historical fact tomorrow

.

Make una nuke this world abeg make we go rest.

princeeze1:
The biggest losers are 1) the Ukrainian people whose nation is devastated requiring billions of dollars and decades of rebuilding. 2) American foreign policy of intervention and adventurism. Yes the Russian economy has taken a beaten, all economy in war time must take a beating, sanctions or not, wars are also not cheap. This war shows how weak and impotent the west is against Russia. The economy is not suffering as a direct result of sanctions but as a result of speculations. What does Russia sell? Energy and weapons. Do you know NORD stream1 is still fully functional( NORD STREAM 2 never started operations in the first place), same with turk stream despite all the sanctions noise? There is simply no replacement for more than 50 billion cubic of gas anywhere. Have you wondered how despite all the noise about SWIFT, it only target seven banks, who actually do not need it for messaging within Russia, since Russia has an in-country messaging for transfers. The banks via which they pay for energy were all carefully exempted. Is this not hypocrisy? Apart from America and European partners, most of South America, Eurasia, Asia, save for japan and SK are not in tandem with sanctions and will continue to do bussiness with the Russians. What other sanctions is there to talk about? Seizures of Russian oligarchs investments in Europe and America, very laughable because the Americans and European allies have more to lose here, the bulk of western investments in Russia is far superior with alot of corporations investing in energy and steel. E.g. British petroleum just quit and lost over 25b investment portfolio, remind me how much Chelsea is worth again? The only thing the west will achieve is the ban on trade with dollar( Russia’s biggest trading partner is China and settlement is mostly in national currency) and the policy of isolation since most countries are yes men to American foreign policy. But surely at the end of the war,the economy would have weathered the shock and begin a recovery with government intervention, Europe would still continue to buy energy from Russia, which shows the impotency of the sanctions. What becomes of Ukraine? Still not a NATO country, economy already died since last year just from speculations of impending war, still indebted, now in ruins, begins a rebuilding that would take another 20 to 30 years to finish. Did I hear someone say the west would fund the rebuild? Go and ask Iraq how far their rebuild has gone despite all the promises! What about the loss of civilian lives, forget the soldiers, they signed up to die someday in war. Ukraine lost out so much for putting their nation in the hands of a comedian. Ukraine has simply lost, no magic!!!

Fine…. What is a win to Putin?…. That was my question.

While you have made some good points, I can actually respond to all in favor of the west but that was not the question.

Let me give you a simple example…. Russian/ Europe gas sales is a symbiotic relationship. Russian needs the money from gas sales as much as Europe needs the gas. Russia crashes immediately it stops the sales. It’s just like Nigeria threatening the west by stopping sales of crude oil (the economy will outrightly collapse in less than a month). So Russian gas sales to Europe is not an edge. Infact Europe will be forced to source alternate gas sources shortly from Algeria etc.

Besides oil and gas sales alone mean nothing. Nigeria as a major oil exporter in Africa is still the poverty capital of the world. Russia is not not recovering anytime soon.

Unfortunately I have delved into what I never wanted to. My question is all this is, at what point can we say Putin and Russia has won?

Flets:


Fine…. What is a win to Putin?…. That was my question.

My question is all this is, at what point can we say Putin and Russia has won?

A win for Putin is seen by understanding the reason for the invasion. Stopping NATO from opening another front after tha baltics on Russia’s border. If Ukraine is prevented from NATO ascension, it means his goals was achieved. Did I hear you say it was not worth the war, my dear, no price is too big to pay for your security. If not, confronting NATO in a bigger war within the next two decades would be on the cards. Very true, gas business is symbiotic between both blocks. I was simply trying to point out clearly that majority of the sanctions are just emotional in nature with no real substance. A ban on airspace affects both parties, Russia is as big as a continent, avoiding its airspace in reciprocity means more jet fuel and longer flights duration, who pays for this? Your guess is as good as mine, the Europeans. I earlier stated clearly, in the foreseeable decade, there is no replacement for over 50 billion cubic of gas, you said Algeria, lol, how much gas can Algeria actually pump? Trust me, if there was, they would have long stopped buying Russian gas. Europe is a gas driven economy, from heating homes, to powering power stations, to cooking. Same way Nigeria is fuel driven. Apple and google closing shops in Russia is actually one less market for them not the other way, time for Huawei, harmony and co to step in, seizing Russian investments in Europe when your corporations invested billions in their energy and steel industry. They are about to nationalize all Boeing aircraft under lease or higher purchase in Russia. Bp just lost $25b. The MSM is not reporting that prices are also going up terribly in their capitals, it’s a two way bomb. Before the war, gas was averaging at $900 per 1000cubic, it’s currently at $1400 at 1000 cubic. Who is bearing this cost? your guess as good as mine. Never you compare Nigeria when it comes to other world capitals please, it’s thesame oil we sell that Iran, Algeria, most of the Middle East sell, yet while we are a shithole, they are all developed, Iran has been under sanctions since the 70s, it’s more developed and advanced than Nigeria that is a US ally and not under any sanctions. Imagine a part of Europe in tandem with America saying it is isolating Russia and we still have another 4 continent in bussiness. Russia sells energy, weapons and agricultural products(largest producer and seller of wheat to Middle East and North Africa). Only China and India accounts for over 2.5 billion people world wide. Please how many people live in Western Europe plus America put together? Kicking a nation out of symbolic organizations and sports you dominate only achieves isolation and that is all they will ever get. It’s all emotional sanctions, impotent in nature. Is the Russian economy taking a beating? YES! But their economy will weather the storm and emerge stronger after the war, they will still all sit and negotiate at the table for a new security architecture for the whole of Europe like macron proposed to Putin and the symbolic sanctions would be rolled back.(communist China and America were fraternal enemies until Nixon visited Mao). Was the win for Putin achieved? I answered that in my first paragraph!!!!! Incase anyone missed the memo, zelensky is the one currently begging for talks with Putin, same talks he vehemently refused.

princeeze1:

A win for Putin is seen by understanding the reason for the invasion. Stopping NATO from opening another front after tha baltics on Russia’s border. If Ukraine is prevented from NATO ascension, it means his goals was achieved. Did I hear you say it was not worth the war, my dear, no price is too big to pay for your security. If not, confronting NATO in a bigger war within the next two decades would be on the cards. Very true, gas business is symbiotic between both blocks. I was simply trying to point out clearly that majority of the sanctions are just emotional in nature with no real substance. A ban on airspace affects both parties, Russia is as big as a continent, avoiding its airspace in reciprocity means more jet fuel and longer flights duration, who pays for this? Your guess is as good as mine, the Europeans. I earlier stated clearly, in the foreseeable decade, there is no replacement for over 50 billion cubic of gas, you said Algeria, lol, how much gas can Algeria actually pump? Trust me, if there was, they would have long stopped buying Russian gas. Europe is a gas driven economy, from heating homes, to powering power stations, to cooking. Same way Nigeria is fuel driven. Apple and google closing shops in Russia is actually one less market for them not the other way, time for Huawei, harmony and co to step in, seizing Russian investments in Europe when your corporations invested billions in their energy and steel industry. They are about to nationalize all Boeing aircraft under lease or higher purchase in Russia. Bp just lost $25b. The MSM is not reporting that prices are also going up terribly in their capitals, it’s a two way bomb. Before the war, gas was averaging at $900 per 1000cubic, it’s currently at $1400 at 1000 cubic. Who is bearing this cost? your guess as good as mine. Never you compare Nigeria when it comes to other world capitals please, it’s thesame oil we sell that Iran, Algeria, most of the Middle East sell, yet while we are a shithole, they are all developed, Iran has been under sanctions since the 70s, it’s more developed and advanced than Nigeria that is a US ally and not under any sanctions. Imagine a part of Europe in tandem with America saying it is isolating Russia and we still have another 4 continent in bussiness. Russia sells energy, weapons and agricultural products(largest producer and seller of wheat to Middle East and North Africa). Only China and India accounts for over 2.5 billion people world wide. Please how many people live in Western Europe plus America put together? Kicking a nation out of symbolic organizations and sports you dominate only achieves isolation and that is all they will ever get. It’s all emotional sanctions, impotent in nature. Is the Russian economy taking a beating? YES! But their economy will weather the storm and emerge stronger after the war, they will still all sit and negotiate at the table for a new security architecture for the whole of Europe like macron proposed to Putin and the symbolic sanctions would be rolled back.(communist China and America were fraternal enemies until Nixon visited Mao). Was the win for Putin achieved? I answered that in my first paragraph!!!!! Incase anyone missed the memo, zelensky is the one currently begging for talks with Putin, same talks he vehemently refused.

I will try not to be lured into a long response.

Specific to Putin wins when he keeps NATO away from Ukraine. On that basis I can confidently tell you now that the invasion of Ukraine now assures increased NATO presence and activity in the region and specifically Ukraine. Or you truly believe NATO will run away because Putin attacked Ukraine…. Not happening.

Infact the war will give rise to rebel groups that offers the west the opportunity to keep Russia busy for a long time and will even make attempts on their homeland.

The game only starts when he installs the puppet president.

Note: I agree Ukraine is a loser here but same is. Russia/ Putin in the mid to long term. The west unfortunately won already by sacrificing Ukraine

backbencher:


It is for now. But to the honest, it is too too early to say whether this is another Afghanistan-like situation, or just another 'typical conquest'

Anyway, me, I am just 'siddon look', In my opinion, both sides have a point.

You maybe right. However, no matter how we may try to put it, nothing justifies the invasion of Ukraine by Russian forces.
These world power countries won't stop making use of the slightest excuse to test run their military might.
Most people try to justify Russia's invasion of Ukraine by saying that there was an agreement between Russia and NATO after the cold war, deterring either party from expanding toward the other. If this is the case, is it not more appropriate for Russia to directly question NATO's intentions to breach that agreement by showing intentions to allow Ukraine become its member instead of invading Ukraine in the manner they did??
For instance, if you lend your money to a loan shark company and you had an agreement with them never to loan money to anybody that is under 18, if the loan shark company happens to breach the agreement and decide to loan money to an under 18, who would you sue?

The loan shark company, or the under 18 person to whom the money was lent?

Most people who try to justify this invasion of Ukraine by Russian forces may be approaching the issue with one sentiment or the other.
Russia should have engaged NATO for showing intentions to breach the agreement they both reached after the cold war and probably file a case against NATO at the ICC.