Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? - Religion (4) - Nairaland
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| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by nlMediator: 4:48pm On Jun 30, 2011 |
Claus: You are right. A lot of money collected for, and devoted to, evangelism is simply wasted. I'm not even talking of the ones not used for evangelism. But as human beings, so long as we think we're spending the money on things of God, we do not feel bad or take time to question ourselves. Traveling abroad to minister for a weekend, several weekends in a year, costs a lot of money. With all the retinue of staff, probably flying first or business class. Buying time to be on TV may not always be useful, but everybody that has a chance jumps at it. Nobody seems to do any cost analysis of the outcome of these expenditures. |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by obowunmi(m): 4:51pm On Jun 30, 2011 |
Claus: Well said my brother.  newmi: I am telling the truth my sister.  |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by TeeJay6(m): 4:53pm On Jun 30, 2011 |
ogajim:I know for a fact that there are RCCG branches in Saudi, Iraq and Russia http://rccg.narod.ru/index.html |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by Zikkyy(m): 4:59pm On Jun 30, 2011 |
ogajim: It is no longer about wining souls, it's about spreading their brand. Thats why they find the gospel expensive. Claus: This approach could damage the brand of the bigger churches (those with very strong brand image). I don't think they want that to happen. |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by kcjazz(m): 5:44pm On Jun 30, 2011 |
I wonder how much Thomas the Disciple had when he took the Gospel to India? I have seen folks who came to the USA as Missionaries and are here hustling Thank God for the Internet, how many Nigerian churches have a blog? Free blogger website to at least post Pastors manuscript on the web or Facebook or Twitter? I purposely omitted Website cos someone will say it costs money but blogger is free. Are we really reaching out or just recycling Christians? How are we impacting our communities? How has the church on a Lagos street impacted its community? Again, why do believers and non-believers give to the Red Cross and Salvation Army, is this not what the Church is for? This all started as Church organisations We are losing focus and alienating our youths. |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by tlops(m): 6:16pm On Jun 30, 2011 |
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. 1cor.6:20 |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by Joagbaje(m): 6:58pm On Jun 30, 2011 |
nlMediator: If the journey is worth it why not? If after a journey like that you have thousands give their hearts to the lord , who is complaining ? God? No. And what do you say about the expenses of jesus how he hired or chatters private ships for his journeys ? Was it a waste. Jesus never took public boat like paul .maybe I'm wrong you can correct me. Buying time to be on TV may not always be useful, but everybody that has a chance jumps at it. Nobody seems to do any cost analysis of the outcome of these expenditures. Do you know the extent of the reach of the tv? Is it for a show? Do you know how many got saved through them? And how many testified of healings while a preacher prayed on tv. If we must make global impact , we must embrace technology and it cost good money. |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by ogajim(m): 7:31pm On Jun 30, 2011 |
Joagbaje: Pastor JoAgbaje, where in the Bible is it written that Jesus Christ chattered a boat? You are the Pastor so please show us instances, all his Disciples were fishermen, could they be using those boats by any chance? Second point: your Nigerian TV broadcast at best reaches all parts of Africa and not beyond, depending on your carrier in the US, some of us get NTA and AIT or one of those, nothing more and nothing less. Stop this grand deception of reaching millions via the tube, I can understand some folks want to be TV personalities plus pastoring but that's a different story entirely. Internet streaming will reach more and probably is the CHEAPEST option since air times are not required. Technology make things cheaper for most people and industries maybe not for the pay per view church businesses. |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by Claus(m): 8:09pm On Jun 30, 2011 |
Zikkyy: Exactly! |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by Joagbaje(m): 8:36pm On Jun 30, 2011 |
ogajim: Mark 3:9 9 And he spake to his disciples, that a small ship should wait on him because of the multitude, lest they should throng him. Does that sound like they own the ship? He would have said , "get the boat" or "our boat" but "get a boat" is from other sources remember also that they left all before following Jesus. Second point: your Nigerian TV broadcast at best reaches all parts of Africa and not beyond, depending on your carrier in the US, some of us get NTA and AIT or one of those, nothing more and nothing less. Stop this grand deception of reaching millions via the tube, I can understand some folks want to be TV personalities plus pastoring but that's a different story entirely. What are you saying? What about the free to air stations . Satellites stations. To even talk of this Nta thing alone. Do you know how much it cost? Internet streaming will reach more and probably is the CHEAPEST option since air times are not required. Technology make things cheaper for most people and industries maybe not for the pay per view church businesses Are the equipment staff and maintenance free of charge? |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by nlMediator: 9:02pm On Jun 30, 2011 |
Joagbaje: I wish thousands or even millions were getting saved. But every sincere person knows that’s not the case. More like a few dozens here and there. Most people that fill decision cards or answer altar calls at these meetings are people that have confessed Jesus as Lord numerous times. Some of them are the same people that appears in different ministers’ crusades. Wonder why after these meetings, the branch churches still have few members, 99.9% of whom are Nigerians? Also, the ministers can travel more lightly. But they pack a lot of people because the money is not coming out of their own pockets. Even members and ministers that accompany the senior pastors and pay their way could direct that money elsewhere, if the SP chose to travel with one or two people. The reason I’m concerned is that some of the people sponsoring these trips can barely make ends meet, but decide to give because they believe in soul-winning or because they are asked to. The reach of the TV ministry is very limited. At least abroad, there is a system for determining the number of viewers. I’ll like to see the numbers. Do you realize that some TV programs of a Nigerian pastor or two have been taken off the air? Obvious reason would be poor viewership, which in turn means no money to support their continuation. Now, if that same minister can convince the members or partners, money would continue to be spent on the program, even when hardly anybody is watching. I agree that we should spend resources to reach people – even one person – but at a point, you ask yourself if it is smart to spend money they way it is currently done. |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by dare2think: 9:03pm On Jun 30, 2011 |
@Joaagbje From what you quoted, does that sound like they charttered the ship? Why are you re-asserting the context of the bible and giving it your own meaning to justify your argument. The quoted text clearly did not incline to "chartter" or use any similar language. It only states " a small ship should wait on him", Pls where is "charter" or "borrow" or "lend" in that simple sentence? |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by Zikkyy(m): 9:37pm On Jun 30, 2011 |
Joagbaje: Just as ogajim noted, technology was developed to make processes/transactions/activities more efficient and cheaper. why is your own different? wrong use, maybe. With technology, pastor don't even need to travel anymore. this will eliminate the need for private jet  even made easier now that healings can be done from a remote location via tv and internet Joagbaje: It's for show most times very little impact. The cost far outweigh the benefit. But if you say many people get saved through them (this i believe is not significant ), that means you need less physical branch network and more cost savings. Thats what technology is all about Joagbaje: This is the bit i don't understand, everybody want to go global. even the small church that just opened next door want to go global in the near future. is there any place on earth you will get to and not find that a church has been there before you? Redeem want to preach the gospel to the end of the earth, same with CEC, MFM e.t.c i am sure a church somewhere overseas is making plans (collecting contributions from members) to spread the gospel to my village where we already have over fifteen brands  maybe you all converge at the north pole and you expect the gospel to be cheap.Joagbaje: oga, go and make impact in Maiduguri |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by Zikkyy(m): 9:51pm On Jun 30, 2011 |
nlMediator: Thats what they don't understand. With the problem in Nigeria, people go from one crusade to the other. One night vigil to another. They believe they are wining souls. Come Friday everybody will be at redeem camp, CEC, MFM, Winners, Cele, even boko haram by sunday (or subsequent Friday ) every body is back to their regular place of worship |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by nlMediator: 10:50pm On Jun 30, 2011 |
Zikkyy: Correct, my brother. That's why some of these crusades register millions, but when you think of the population in that city, the number does not add up, unless there's some kind of double or multiple counting. It's not limited to Nigeria. |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by Enigma(m): 5:53am On Jul 01, 2011 |
Mark 3:9 (KJV)** And he spake to his disciples, that a small ship should wait on him because of the multitude, lest they should throng him. According to Strong's the word rendered by the KJV as "a small ship" is ploiarion which means a small vessel, a boat. In the KJV that word is translated as "boat" 3 times, as "little ship" 2 times, and as "small ship" just this one time in Mark 3. The word is not translated simply as "ship". Here are some other Bible versions of Mark 3:9 NIV
ASV
BBE
NASB
Douay-Rheims
Darby
**EDIT Oh, I forgot to say that in the modernisation of the KJV to the NKJV this is how the passage is now rendered So He told His disciples that a small boat should be kept ready for Him because of the multitude, lest they should crush Him. |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by Enigma(m): 6:08am On Jul 01, 2011 |
In addition, the People's New Testament commentary describes the vessel as "A small ship. A fishing boat." Meanwhile, also consider the purpose for which Jesus was going to use the boat (or small ship)! The primary purpose was to sit in the boat and continue to teach/preach to the people on the shore i.e. to maintain some distance from the crowd so as not to be crushed. So how could that have been a ship of the size/type that you "chatter" (sic)? This is what two commentators observe on the passage. Barnes A small ship - Rather a "boat." There were properly speaking, no "ships" on the Sea of Tiberias. This was probably a small boat that belonged to the disciples, in which he could draw off from the shore, and teach the people without being pressed by them. Clarke A small ship - Πλοιαριον. The lytil boot, Old English MS. It was doubtless something of the boat kind, which probably belonged to some of the disciples. Our Lord was at this time teaching by the sea of Galilee. The word ship is utterly improper in many places of our translation, and tends to mislead the people. Is that the kind of vessel you "chatter" (sic)? You see: combating even the smallest false teaching is not |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by Joagbaje(m): 7:25am On Jul 01, 2011 |
^^^ small boat I agree. But must correction be with insult? Which one is false teaching? The bible say "ship " did I put it there. |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by Enigma(m): 7:26am On Jul 01, 2011 |
Meanwhile let us consider an example of what it means to "further the gospel" according to Joagbaje. (a) Joagbaje says giving money to fund TV & satellite ministry etc is "furthering the gospel" (b) Joagbaje says there was nothing wrong with Eddie Long (using millions of such funds?) to settle young men who alleged Same-sex affairs with Eddie Long! In fact, Joagbaje says Eddie Long is justified to do this because after all even Jesus "settled" tax collectors! See here https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-687483.0.html#msg8496584 and https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-687483.0.html#msg8498248 Therefore: it would seem that according to Joagbaje, using ministry funds by Eddie Long to settle s.ex abuse allegations is using the money to "further the gospel"! Or perhaps when the Head of TBN, Paul Crouch, spent $425,000 of "ministry funds" to settle a man who alleged Same-sex affair with him, that was also to "further the gospel"! Meanwhile, as zikky has pointed out, Joagbaje obviously avoided the simple question that I asked him earlier: please tell us the types of giving that advance the gospel PS @ zikky, I never ready yet to do multiple choice question for am; after all him na "bone-chewer"! |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by Enigma(m): 7:28am On Jul 01, 2011 |
Joagbaje: Point out the insult! (I'll let you know that I even held back; I could have pointed out again your deliberate and manipulative uses of Bible translations/versions) |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by nuclearboy(m): 8:09am On Jul 01, 2011 |
Joagbaje may not know it but Enigma's example of the translation of the word he used to say Jesus rented a "ship" (deliberately implying great cost) is why many of us have problem with him. He knows we know he knows the possibly interpretations and that "ships" as he used the term could NOT be used in the circumstances - how close can a ship get to shore when you consider the undercarriage? How would Jesus preach from maybe 1 mile away that the ship would get? Did Jesus have use of a PA system? Any onlooker would thus know that Jo KNEW but deliberately used falsity to sell his idea. All of us use hyperboles in real life as descriptive terms but we make it obvious it is to pass a point across - but not to twist the meaning of something. The small boat Christ used would keep him maybe 8 feet away and nobody would stand inside water. Likely that such boat belonged to peter or a fisherman friend. Rent? Negligible IF even paid. But the idea above is like an aircraft carrier was used and for what? To sell the idea that people should bring money. Its wrong to use such tricks. Imagine unbelievers like Mazaje or thehomer reading it - they'll say "see lying conniving ignorant cowardly pastors again". Please note I quoted one of them above and am not the one insulting you here. Just reminding you what lies cause. NOW, you keep saying we ought go meet pastors and correct them rather than screaming - that is what I have done in this post. So please take correction and tell your "friends" not to come fight me. Otherwise, you never meant all of that "quiet correction" you said. |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by lolade4(f): 8:17am On Jul 01, 2011 |
This argument also took place during the time of Jesus, His disciple complained about the apparent wastage of one woman Matthew 26:7-13. The master's response was"Leave her alone, there will always be poor people in your midst" |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by Enigma(m): 8:20am On Jul 01, 2011 |
@nuclearboy That is one of the things that infuriates me the most about Joagbaje. When we first started engaging him one late December like that, I think we all (I did certainly) thought he was a genuine guy or genuinely mistaken guy. However, there are now soooooo many examples of him deliberately himself (not even relying on opaks Oyaks) twisting the Bible or deliberately using some version or other to manipulative intent! I find that a total disgrace for its dishonesty. The one thing is that sometimes people are too clever by half and end up being daft: if he was wise, he would realise that he cannot fool all of us here --- but I guess he is used to fooling his congregation and arrogantly or ignorantly thinks he can get away with the same here! |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by Joagbaje(m): 8:30am On Jul 01, 2011 |
@enigma Pls let's not derail the thread . And let's not get personal. State your point make it clear. You may be right . It's not about joagbaje it's about the topic pls. I believe I have I believe I have achieved the purpose of this thread which is to remove the umbrella cover of "the gospel is free" now it is clear there are two issues . The gospel is free to the unsaved being reached . According to Jesus but the gospel cost those who preach it. And another thing is that when people give in church it doesn't fall under the hammer of the gospel not being free because that's the general idea many people(or critics) give. So now if we are now dealing with the nitty gritty of the justifiableness of sponsoring the gospel. It's not a bad idea. We don't have to get personal. You may have a good point. Let's communicate it in a right way. |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by Enigma(m): 8:38am On Jul 01, 2011 |
Please identify for us the types of giving that advance the gospel! Thanks. |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by Claus(m): 10:26am On Jul 01, 2011 |
lol-ade: This is not the same argument. 11 The poor you will always have with you,[a] but you will not always have me. 12 When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. When Jesus said this, He knew He was God living in a human form and that His time on the earth was short. The poor would always be there, but He wouldn't, so the perfume being used on Him was not a waste. Today we find people using this section of the Bible to justify all manner of waste and extravagance! |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by Demainman1: 1:49pm On Jul 01, 2011 |
@Jo Agbaje, I'll say your congregrations are are deep trouble with you feeding them all these warped interpretation of the bible like the example of the ''small ship'' above. If na people wey no dey read their bible u tell this crap so dem go just swallow am line, hook and sinker. come begin feed others with the idea that Jesus was even hiring, chatering boats, donkeys and even planes (ascension) sef during his time on earth. is this the best interpretation your own 'Holy Spirit' can give you? Small ship = Merchant Navy Ship Tell me sey na chartered plane even carry Jesus go heaven. i go believe you!!! MUGUS are in trouble from Naija pastors o. |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by biilwwu(m): 2:09pm On Jul 01, 2011 |
Freely it is given unto you and freely must you give,buy the truth and sell it not,Gospel is costly (a) sacrifice of living holy life e.i -preacher (b)the dedication of preacher (c)Financial cost ,TV fees ,Radio, News paper adverts,Printing of Tracts etc. (d) Crusade Expenses is another thing, money is the bicycles of Gospel What many of our people don't understand is that when God gives you Commission He will also gives Provision, Purpose of gospel is salvation of Humans souls The truth of the matter is -Gospel must cost something ,Salvation is free i.e either you accept it or reject it , but if you reject it prepare for the consequence. |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by ogajim(m): 2:14pm On Jul 01, 2011 |
Pastor JoAgbaje will soon abandon this thread which is what he usually do when faced with start realities of not being able to fool his NL audience. Everything with these guys is about cost and money, Christians who can't do anything for free it seems! All the time Jo spends on NL in his futile attempt to sway is CEC's way could be spent learning the intricacies on computing and how it can help advance his "ministry" so he wouldn't have to rely on "equipment staff" Joagbaje: Folks should be able to donate their time and skills for the advancement of the Gospel if they believe the bearer of the news don't you think? |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by ogajim(m): 2:19pm On Jul 01, 2011 |
bi ilw wu: Look at this one, your username looks like Oshoffa's middle name, you're not talking to kids here dude as you can see, your pastor JoAgbaje is beating it.  |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by Claus(m): 2:37pm On Jul 01, 2011 |
Spreading the gospel DOES NOT have to be expensive. There are costs associated with it, that is a fact. There were costs in Jesus's time as well. I believe it's Zikky that has hit the nail by pointing to the branding issue. People are determined to expand THEIR own ministry. This is what brings exhorbitant costs. You see ministers trying to establish their ministries in cities already full of churches. Ministries creating TV/Satellite channels and programs to be broadcast in cities that already have 24hr Christian channels. Each ministry spending money doing their own thing and duplicating efforts. Someone mentioned about the missionaries of old and how they came to Africa. What the person failed to point out is that Africa had NEVER heard the gospel before then. Those missionaries weren't bringing the gospel to villages and towns that already had pastors and churches. They were bringing the gospel to idol worshippers. Today, someone from Africa embarks on a mission to set up a church in Dallas, a city where a big ministry (T D Jakes Potters House) is already established. Then they say that because they have such a wide network of churches, they need a private jet to fly the main man around. What's the motivation? Global vision right? |
| Re: Is the gospel free or costly? . How Do You See It? by Zikkyy(m): 4:19pm On Jul 01, 2011 |
Claus: I would say Global domination It appears the objective is to be the dominant brand everywhere, probably unseat the Roman Catholic Church it's no longer about spreading the gospel |
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