Claus:

Spreading the gospel DOES NOT have to be expensive. There are costs associated with it, that is a fact. There were costs in Jesus's time as well.

I believe it's Zikky that has hit the nail by pointing to the branding issue. People are determined to expand THEIR own ministry. This is what brings exhorbitant costs.

You see ministers trying to establish their ministries in cities already full of churches. Ministries creating TV/Satellite channels and programs to be broadcast in cities that already have 24hr Christian channels. Each ministry spending money doing their own thing and duplicating efforts.

Someone mentioned about the missionaries of old and how they came to Africa. What the person failed to point out is that Africa had NEVER heard the gospel before then. Those missionaries weren't bringing the gospel to villages and towns that already had pastors and churches. They were bringing the gospel to idol worshippers.

[b]Today, someone from Africa embarks on a mission to set up a church in Dallas, a city where a big ministry (T D Jakes Potters House) is already established. [/b]Then they say that because they have such a wide network of churches, they need a private jet to fly the main man around.
What's the motivation? Global vision right?

  Infact gbam¹⁰⁰⁰.

And on the flip side, at churches here in yankee we regularly get 'missionaries' raising funds to travel to take the gospel to Africa - Naija, Kenya, Ghana are top destinations. Imagine the foolish irony. And africans are trying to take the 'gospel' to yankee. I think all of them are all smoking the same twisted pipe.

JeSoul:

  Infact gbam¹⁰⁰⁰.

And on the flip side, at churches here in yankee we regularly get 'missionaries' raising funds to travel to take the gospel to Africa - Naija, Kenya, Ghana are top destinations. Imagine the foolish irony. And africans are trying to take the 'gospel' to yankee. I think all of them are all smoking the same twisted pipe.

You made a good point but wrong conclusion. Yankees are holding crusades in africa and donating welfare materials. Africans are not holding crusade in Yankee. But they are penetrating with churches . There are different missions. They are both for real. Let every one follow their calling.

Joagbaje:

You made a good point but wrong conclusion. Yankees are holding crusades in africa and donating welfare materials. Africans are not holding crusade in Yankee. But they are penetrating with churches . There are different missions. They are both for real. Let every one follow their calling.

I'm not sure I understand your point well.

Absolutely true a lot of welfare and charity work is done using those funds and I fully support that. But not when they come with a team of 20 'missionaries' going to Kenya for 1 week to 'spread the gospel'. Items can easily be sent with 1 or 2 people.

On your comment "Africans are not holding crusade in Yankee. But they are penetrating with churches" can you please explain? Why is there a need for specific african churches to establish branches in america? when there a thousands of already established churches here, more than enough for the people here to go to?

@ Jo

They are "penetrating" with churches in areas fillied with churches already


Seriously?

Claus:

Spreading the gospel DOES NOT have to be expensive. There are costs associated with it, that is a fact. There were costs in Jesus's time as well.

It depends on what you mean by expensive . Cost is cost. Is it free ? Does it cost?  How much it should cost is another matter.

I believe it's Zikky that has hit the nail by pointing to the branding issue. People are determined to expand THEIR own ministry. This is what brings exhorbitant costs.

You see ministers trying to establish their ministries in cities already full of churches. Ministries creating TV/Satellite channels and programs to be broadcast in cities that already have 24hr Christian channels. Each ministry spending money doing their own thing and duplicating efforts.

it is carnal to see it that way. Every minister has his area of calling  to meet the needs of people. Td jakes is mending broken hearts , reaching out with hope to the wounded etc. Creflo is different , benny is different ,CEC is teaching about new creation realities. Some others are into prophetic, deliverance,holiness, etc, everyone has their grace . They should go to where God send them. If you look at it with business eye, it is carnal

JeSoul:

I'm not sure I understand your point well.

Absolutely true a lot of welfare and charity work is done using those funds and I fully support that. But not when they come with a team of 20 'missionaries' going to Kenya for 1 week to 'spread the gospel'. Items can easily be sent with 1 or 2 people.

On your comment "Africans are not holding crusade in Yankee. But they are penetrating with churches" can you please explain? Why is there a need for specific african churches to establish branches in america? when there a thousands of already established churches here, more than enough for the people here to go to?

We need to hear from people before we judge them. Let's know their passion and motive. We may look from a different perspective .

TL OSBORNE held several crusades in africa. Apart from the salvation ,healing ,miracles he sent relief. And the bigger part ,he trained ministers and gave thousands of P.A system. Megaphones for street preaching, projectors for filmshow and vehicles.

We should study on people and hear what they do and their motives. We should not assume we know their motives. That's why this judgemental thing is dangerous . We find ourselves sinning without knowing. When we get to heaven ,at the judgement seat of christ we shall know who is who.

it is carnal to see it that way. Every minister has his area of calling  to meet the needs of people. Td jakes is mending broken hearts , reaching out with hope to the wounded etc. Creflo is different , benny is different ,CEC is teaching about new creation realities. Some others are into prophetic, deliverance,holiness, etc, everyone has their grace . They should go to where God send them. If you look at it with business eye, it is carnal
[quote][/quote]

Kenneth Hagin started teaching new creation realities before some of you were born! And you do not need to look too far to see a protege of Hagin in the American cities that the Nigerian churches are locating to. So, if that's your excuse for coming to America, that's not convincing enough. That's assuming that I even buy the canard that the teachings of the ministers are that different. Only the delivery is. There's hardly any thing a Nigerian minister has preached - including those reproduced here all the time - that I've not read or heard from an American minister, including those you mentioned. If anybody wants to prove me wrong, I'm ready to hear.

Joagbaje:

We need to hear from people before we judge them. Let's know their passion and motive. We may look from a different perspective .

TL OSBORNE held several crusades in africa. Apart from the salvation ,healing ,miracles he sent relief. And the bigger part ,he trained ministers and gave thousands of P.A system. Megaphones for street preaching, projectors for filmshow and vehicles.

We should study on people and hear what they do and their motives. We should not assume we know their motives. That's why this judgemental thing is dangerous . We find ourselves sinning without knowing. When we get to heaven ,at the judgement seat of christ we shall know who is who.

Lol, You crack me up.

People, stop judging these self accliamed "Men of God". Keep turning the blind eye and wait for God's Judgement. Keep allowing them to molest Kids, Keep allowing them to swindle money, Keep allowing them to manipulate the bible.

Tell that to your congregation,people are getting smarter.

Claus:

Spreading the gospel DOES NOT have to be expensive. There are costs associated with it, that is a fact. There were costs in Jesus's time as well.

I believe it's Zikky that has hit the nail by pointing to the branding issue. People are determined to expand THEIR own ministry. This is what brings exhorbitant costs.

You see ministers trying to establish their ministries in cities already full of churches. Ministries creating TV/Satellite channels and programs to be broadcast in cities that already have 24hr Christian channels. Each ministry spending money doing their own thing and duplicating efforts.

Someone mentioned about the missionaries of old and how they came to Africa. What the person failed to point out is that Africa had NEVER heard the gospel before then. Those missionaries weren't bringing the gospel to villages and towns that already had pastors and churches. They were bringing the gospel to idol worshippers.

Today, someone from Africa embarks on a mission to set up a church in Dallas, a city where a big ministry (T D Jakes Potters House) is already established. Then they say that because they have such a wide network of churches, they need a private jet to fly the main man around.

What's the motivation? Global vision right?

Yep, branding (partly) explains it. Ministers also claim their calling is the driving force. But there's another major factor - Money. If it was all about branding and calling, you'll see the churches establishing branches abroad, without taking special care to select mainly cities and states where you have a large concentration of Nigerians, like New York, California, Texas, Georgia and Maryland. Some states like Vermont, Rhode Island, Maine and Alaska are not as churched as these places. But they also do not have many black residents, let alone Nigerians. So, you don't have many people being called to these places, even when going there would not hurt their brand - since they can still go to Nigeria and claim they're in America. Unfortunately, some of these places, especially the small New England states need the gospel more - as they have become so secularized. But going there means few members and little revenue.

I'm beginning to think that deep down, these Nigerian ministers do not believe their hype that they're going abroad to take back the gospel to them. I think they simply want to take the gospel to Nigerians in the diaspora, especially members of their church in Nigeria who relocated and whom they use as a base for reaching out to others. To an extent, God seems to be honoring their 'vision' because their churches are making near-zero impact in the non-Nigerian population. Not that that would stop them from taking pictures of a solitary white man or woman in their congregation and inserting them in glossy brochures touting their global harvest field.

That would even generate more contributions from members who are so proud to be part of such an exclusive ministry.

nlMediator:

I'm beginning to think that deep down, these Nigerian ministers do not believe their hype that they're going abroad to take back the gospel to them. [b]I think they simply want to take the gospel to Nigerians in the diaspora, especially members of their church in Nigeria who relocated and whom they use as a base for reaching out to others. To an extent, God seems to be honoring their 'vision' because their churches are making near-zero impact in the non-Nigerian population. Not that that would stop them from taking pictures of a solitary white man or woman in their congregation and inserting them in glossy brochures touting their global harvest field.[/b]That would even generate more contributions from members who are so proud to be part of such an exclusive ministry.

You just echoed my long-time observation. Absolutley no effect whatsoever on the communities abroad. Forget the diasporans, look back at home, what positive effect do they have on the nation and surrounding environment- NOTHING-

Still a corrupt country with corrupt leaders. Poverty and inefficiency still rampant, and your are talking about abroad, C'mon.

dare2think:

You just echoed my long-time observation. Absolutley no effect whatsoever on the communities abroad. Forget the diasporans, look back at home, what positive effect do they have on the nation and surrounding environment- NOTHING-

Still a corrupt country with corrupt leaders. Poverty and inefficiency still rampant, and your are talking about abroad, C'mon.

Correcto! I said it earlier: I can understand Yonggi Cho talking of having the largest congregation in the world or something like that. I can see the effect in Seoul and the life of Koreans. You see a lot of honest people. The prosperity there has a basis beyond supplying materials to the government. That's the home of high quality electronic and auto products. I can even understand American churches bragging. You probably can find more honest people in one American suburb than in all of Nigeria! So, when these churches brag about how large their ministry is, the legitimate question is: to what end? If the people that troop to churches on sundays and other weekly activities reflect the true Christian life a bit, then we can see the impact and know they're doing a commendable job. But Nigeria is such a cesspool it's hard to believe we have any church there (there are good christians but they are crowded out by the loud ones). By the way, that's probably part of the reason foreigners do not waste their time with these Nigerians churches exporting their message abroad. They're most likely asking: if your message is so great, why is your country such a mess?

Joagbaje:

It depends on what you mean by expensive . Cost is cost. Is it free ? Does it cost?  How much it should cost is another matter.

What I mean by expensive is "costly". Costly is the word you yourself used in the title of the topic. Is the gospel free or costly (expensive)? Please look up the meaning of costly. How much it should cost is NOT another matter. It falls squarely under your question of whether it is free or costly.

Joagbaje:

it is carnal to see it that way. Every minister has his area of calling  to meet the needs of people. Td jakes is mending broken hearts , reaching out with hope to the wounded etc. Creflo is different , benny is different ,CEC is teaching about new creation realities. Some others are into prophetic, deliverance,holiness, etc, everyone has their grace . They should go to where God send them. If you look at it with business eye, it is carnal

I don't buy this at all, and I reject your point that it is a carnal way to see it.

Is a person made up of many divisible parts? Once their broken hearts and wounds are healed at TD Jakes ministry, will they then move on to Creflo to obtain the Creflo grace. Once done, should they then move on to the Benny grace, and once ready for new creation realities they move to the CEC grace and then finish it off with the Eddie Long grace.

How can you say a ministry established to cater to complete people only has the grace for a subset of the gospel? Where then are the people supposed to obtain the other subsets of the gospel?

THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST IS HOLISTIC!!!

Claus:

THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST IS HOLISTIC!!!

Size 1 million font if possible.

The whole gospel should be preached, not divided piecemeal for people to 'specialise' in different areas.

This idea that people have different callings has been twisted to further brand propagation, something Paul rejected outright when the whole 'I follow Paul, you follow Apollos' issues emerged.

Divisions which Paul warned against are exactly the same divisions being promoted by this idea of people teaching different things. The fact that there are dozens of aspects we can attribute to the gospel does not mean we have to listen to 'specialist' ministers on the subject.

@ nlMediator

nlMediator:

Kenneth Hagin started teaching new creation realities before some of you were born! And you do not need to look too far to see a protege of Hagin in the American cities that the Nigerian churches are locating to. So, if that's your excuse for coming to America, that's not convincing enough. That's assuming that I even buy the canard that the teachings of the ministers are that different. Only the delivery is. There's hardly any thing a Nigerian minister has preached - including those reproduced here all the time - that I've not read or heard from an American minister, including those you mentioned. If anybody wants to prove me wrong, I'm ready to hear.

Don't get me wrong . No one is laying originality on the message of new creation. Before Kenneth Hagin, others have preached it like EW Kenyon . And before all of them apostle paul had taught it. It's a message of the bible . the only thing is that revelation is advancing ,God is revealing deeper truths and the teachings of the apostles becomes foundation for us to build upon.

Joagbaje:

@ nlMediatorDon't get me wrong . No one is laying originality on the message of new creation. Before Kenneth Hagin, others have preached it like EW Kenyon . And before all of them apostle paul had taught it. It's a message of the bible . the only thing is that revelation is advancing ,God is revealing deeper truths and the teachings of the apostles becomes foundation for us to build upon.

Sure, Hagin was influenced by Kenyon and mentions that severally in his works. The issue is that you claimed you’re exporting the same message to America that he and his protégés have preached for years in that same America. Now, you’re changing it to say that you’re not teaching just that message, but a deeper aspect of it. Can you just mention 2-3 truths about new creation realities that are different and deeper than what Hagin taught?

nlMediator:

Sure, Hagin was influenced by Kenyon and mentions that severally in his works. The issue is that you claimed you’re exporting the same message to America that he and his protégés have preached for years in that same America. Now, you’re changing it to say that you’re not teaching just that message, but a deeper aspect of it. Can you just mention 2-3 truths about new creation realities that are different and deeper than what Hagin taught?

The word of God has no geograPhycal boundary.Anyone can be sent to any part of the world.besides I didn't talk about exporting message to America . I only mention the fact that many ministers have different revelations and area of callings and grace. I don't know why you are dwelling on new creation. ?

Joagbaje:

The word of God has no geograPhycal boundary.Anyone can be sent to any part of the world.besides I didn't talk about exporting message to America . I only mention the fact that many ministers have different revelations and area of callings and grace. I don't know why you are dwelling on new creation. ?

This is what you said earlier and why I'm dwelling on it:
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Quote from: Joagbaje on Today at 05:31:47 PM
it is carnal to see it that way. Every minister has his area of calling to meet the needs of people. Td jakes is mending broken hearts , reaching out with hope to the wounded etc. Creflo is different , benny is different ,CEC is teaching about new creation realities. Some others are into prophetic, deliverance,holiness, etc, everyone has their grace . They should go to where God send them. If you look at it with business eye, it is carnal
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You said tha above as a basis for justifying Nigerian ministers coming to Dallas where TD Jakes is. So, my response was that if you're coming to teach new creation realities, it's already being taught in America where you're bringing the message by opening branches. Then, you said you teach it in a deeper way. I asked for examples of those deeper and different truths or aspects. Is that asking for too much?

nlMediator:

Yep, branding (partly) explains it. Ministers also claim their calling is the driving force. But there's another major factor - Money. If it was all about branding and calling, you'll see the churches establishing branches abroad, without taking special care to select mainly cities and states where you have a large concentration of Nigerians, like New York, California, Texas, Georgia and Maryland. Some states like Vermont, Rhode Island, Maine and Alaska are not as churched as these places. But they also do not have many black residents, let alone Nigerians. So, you don't have many people being called to these places, even when going there would not hurt their brand - since they can still go to Nigeria and claim they're in America. Unfortunately, some of these places, especially the small New England states need the gospel more - as they have become so secularized. But going there means few members and little revenue.

I'm beginning to think that deep down, these Nigerian ministers do not believe their hype that they're going abroad to take back the gospel to them. I think they simply want to take the gospel to Nigerians in the diaspora, especially members of their church in Nigeria who relocated and whom they use as a base for reaching out to others. To an extent, God seems to be honoring their 'vision' because their churches are making near-zero impact in the non-Nigerian population. Not that that would stop them from taking pictures of a solitary white man or woman in their congregation and inserting them in glossy brochures touting their global harvest field.

That would even generate more contributions from members who are so proud to be part of such an exclusive ministry.

You have nailed the topic. Nigerian so called self acclaimed "men of God" are into this calling thing for self interest. if truly God called them to the western worlds as widely acclaimed, why don't they make disciples of the indigenes of the Country. I live in an exclusive area of England dominated by Europeans, and haven't seen any Nigerian Church 10 miles of my areas cos non-Caucasians are very negligible in my area. However, go to London, and they are everywhere especially in the south east of London.

It's okay to give to church works as long as the pastor is not living large on your donation. Once the pastor ask for money, ask yourself whether Christ would have required such fund to promote the gospel. Preaching the gospel is not expensive, pastors should look for ways of making extra income like the Apostles instead of feeding large on the congregation.

I for one do not attend Nigerian churches cos i do not see their relevance to my immediate community nor do I see how they help with growing true Christian life. its all about money, witcraft, demons and everything to hold u in bondage.

You said tha above as a basis for justifying Nigerian ministers coming to Dallas where TD Jakes is. So, my response was that if you're coming to teach new creation realities, it's already being taught in America where you're bringing the message by opening branches.

So every americans have recieved the message is that what youre saying? Besides word of God has no boundary. Ministry is of the holyghost . Men of God move as they are led. God didn't make some people to be spiritual immigration officer . The message if for all the world.

Then, you said you teach it in a deeper way. I asked for examples of those deeper and different truths or aspects. Is that asking for too much?

I may not want to go into that now. Every man has the degree of his own knowledge.

Joagbaje:

So every americans have recieved the message is that what youre saying? Besides word of God has no boundary. Ministry is of the holyghost . Men of God move as they are led. God didn't make some people to be spiritual immigration officer . The message if for all the world.

I may not want to go into that now. Every man has the degree of his own knowledge.

No, every American has not received the message. And given the track record of Nigerian churches of hardly attracting any Americans, those who have not heard it are unlikely to hear it from Nigerian churches. But that's beside the point. Your initial contention was that you're bringing a message different from Jakes'. Yet, you can't show anything in your message that's different. If you had made your new point earlier, that the message has no boundary, I would not have bothered with that line of inquiry. This is not the first time I’m hearing somebody from a Nigerian church claim that their church has a deeper revelation or truth, yet is unable to present any evidence of such revelation. You’d think such information is at the fingertips of those making such claims and that they would not miss such a wonderful opportunity to educate the rest of us. But it’s beginning to look more and more like a marketing tool that plays to people’s yearning to feel that they belong to a special group that has what others don’t.

Joagbaje:

So every americans have recieved the message is that what youre saying? Besides word of God has no boundary. Ministry is of the holyghost . Men of God move as they are led. God didn't make some people to be spiritual immigration officer . The message if for all the world.

I may not want to go into that now. Every man has the degree of his own knowledge.

Pastor JoAgbaje! Pastor JoAgbaje! Pastor JoAgbaje! Pastor JoAgbaje! Pastor JoAgbaje!

How many times did I call your name? You just don't seem to get it do you?

I have never seen more than a SPRINKLE of non-Nigerians in the different Nigerian Churches here on the east coast. Those non-Nigerians are either married to or friends with the Nigerians they came with, so who are you exporting your brand to other than NIDs? Stop fooling yourself man because you ain't fooling no one on here.

@Joagbaje:j

These "greater" and "deeper" truths you are taking to America - are they wrong for us Nigerians? Please share some with is so we too can have better understanding.

Please. I know you have said you "may" not want to go into such right now but you received freely and God's Command was that you freely give so please honor God and prove what special things need to be exported to the USA.

We are deviating gradually from course in this new creation thing.we can discuss it under another topic. I dont know why we are dwelling on this new creation thing .I mentioned different kinds of messages ,this is what I said.

it is carnal to see it that way. Every minister has his area of calling  to meet the needs of people. Td jakes is mending broken hearts , reaching out with hope to the wounded etc. Creflo is different , benny is different ,CEC is teaching about new creation realities. Some others are into prophetic, deliverance,holiness, etc, everyone has their grace . They should go to where God send them. If you look at it with business eye, it is carnal

ogajim:

You just don't seem to get it do you?

I have never seen more than a SPRINKLE of non-Nigerians in the different Nigerian Churches here on the east coast. Those non-Nigerians are either married to or friends with the Nigerians they came with, so who are you exporting your brand to other than NIDs? Stop fooling yourself man because you ain't fooling no one on here.

That happens naturally, pastor Joseph prince of the new creation church,in singapore  who's mother is Indian and father chinese has more of these people in his church Chinese and Indian . Td jakes who is black has more blacks. Joel Osteen who is white has more whites. It is a fleshly thing but it does happen. But I get your point. Some Nigerian ministers abroad when starting a church goes after nigerians there first and gather their families . It is also fleshly . The greatest impact we can offer to God is to reach the indigenes first  .But as the bible says ."let the gospel be preached anyhow."

But this is not the case for every church. Pastor adelaja of Ukraine has more whites In his church than blacks . He is a Nigerian .

Joagbaje:

So every americans have recieved the message is that what youre saying? Besides  word of God has no boundary. Ministry is of the holyghost . Men of God move as they are led. God didn't make some people to be spiritual immigration officer . The message if for all the world.

I may not want to go into that now. Every man has the degree of his own knowledge.

Reality now is; "Self acclaimed Men of God" move as the money leads them.

How do I know? The worldly and extravagant and contradictory lifestyle they lead.

dare2think:

Reality now is; "Self acclaimed Men of God" move as the money leads them.
How do I know? The worldly and extravagant and contradictory lifestyle they lead.

What is the extravagant lifestyle?

Extravagant-

a : exceeding the limits of reason or necessity
b : lacking in moderation, balance, and restraint

Lifestyle-
: the typical way of life of an individual, group, or culture

Hope that answered your question?

How many of them do you know personally?
And how do they exceed reason of necessity ?

Lol.

Ok I see  you set out to ask "funny" questions, cool I will be truthful and reply you accurately, I only beg that you return the accuracy and truthfulness when I return my questions.

How many do I know "personally"?

None. I read about them and I take time to listen to some of them, so I draw my conclusions from those two elements just like the rest of us. Listening and reading.

How do they exceed reason of necessity?

Most exceed these aspect. How do I know?

Chris Okotie-----He contested and lost Nigerian presidential elections for the third time this year under the Fresh Party, a political party he founded and funds. An automobile lover, he owns a Mercedes S600, Hummer and Porsche among several others.

Chris Oyakhilome---Oyakhilome’s diversified interests include newspapers, magazines, a local television station, a record label, satellite TV, hotels and extensive real estate

Creflo Doller----He has been criticized for his lavish lifestyle as he owns two Rolls-Royces, a private jet, a million dollar home in Atlanta, and a 2.5 million dollar home in Manhattan.

Oyedepo----really??

Sources----http://blogs.forbes.com/mfonobongnsehe/2011/06/07/the-five-richest-pastors-in-nigeria/
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creflo_Dollar

@ Joagbaje
So, my questions.

Do you know any of these individuals personally?

If I start a church today, does that qualify me as a Man of God?

Is it right that men that get their money/wages or financial aid from the mechanism of the church, be wealthier  than the average member of congregation that contributes towards the development of that church?

If these churches are meant to make impact on the lives of the members, why is it that members of that same church experience the same aspect of life like any other person that do not attend the church.( They still experience poverty, sickness, fornication, death, wealth, good health, life in general)?

Joagbaje:

We are deviating gradually from course in this new creation thing.we can discuss it under another topic. I dont know why we are dwelling on this new creation thing .I mentioned different kinds of messages ,this is what I said.

OK, let’s leave the new creation issue. But whenever you have a chance, whether in a new or existing thread, I’ll like to learn about the deeper truths or higher revelation that you mentioned about. The messages you have been sharing are generally a regurgitation of Hagin, Fred Price and others. When you have the new ones, I’ll be happy to learn and make my life better.

Joagbaje:

That happens naturally, pastor Joseph prince of the new creation church,in singapore who's mother is Indian and father chinese has more of these people in his church Chinese and Indian . Td jakes who is black has more blacks. Joel Osteen who is white has more whites. It is a fleshly thing but it does happen. But I get your point. Some Nigerian ministers abroad when starting a church goes after nigerians there first and gather their families . It is also fleshly . The greatest impact we can offer to God is to reach the indigenes first .But as the bible says ."let the gospel be preached anyhow."

But this is not the case for every church. Pastor adelaja of Ukraine has more whites In his church than blacks . He is a Nigerian .

You’re an honest man! Thanks very much for acknowledging that the Nigerian churches are acting in the flesh in the way they go about their “missionary” work abroad. I have nothing against these churches, but this has been a major concern of mine. And ALL of them indulge in it – acting fleshly as you described it. Sunday Adelaja doesn’t count: do you know how many blacks are in Ukraine? That is, he had no choice but to reach out to whites. We don’t know what he would have done if he had a large black population to gravitate to. Joel Osteen does not belong to your list. He received from his dad a church that is almost evenly divided as 1/3 white, 1/3 black and 1/3 Hispanic and while the church has grown 10 times since then, he has maintained that balance. It’s actually an amazing story that hardly exists elsewhere. TIME Magazine had a story on this issue, mentioning Lakewood and others, about 2 years ago.