This topic emanated from the Jlo/Marc Split which seems to have been caused by the overbearing attitude of one of them. I have seen threads here that have discussed the issue of a woman earning more than her man etc but this is different, this is about a woman being allowed to be herself in marriage and not pretend and hide some good things because the man does not want to hear that she has a mind of her own as to mention wanting to do those things. This is the umpteenth time I am hearing women in such marriages wanting out and saying that they refuse to compromise but will rather be themselves. We are not advocating that people leave their marriages just wondering whether it won't be great if husbands allow their wives to be real and wives allow their husbands to be real too. It may even save the increasing rate of divorce.

Methinks that a woman should not lose her individuality in marriage, a woman should be allowed to be herself even when married to a man. She should still have the right to dream, aspire and be what she wants to be. I know this couple that are both professionals and were having this great problem because the woman is building a house and the man does not want her to, he wants her salary stashed in his account for him to use and do what he wants and wants to build with.  This is a woman that her family spent all they have on to have her graduate as a doctor and now that she is earning good and decided to repay her family with a little shelter and her husband does not want to hear that. What is that? Should a woman stop aspiring because now she is married and her individuality has been hidden and taken over by her man? I have even heard of women who build houses, buy properties and make big investments behind the backs of their husband, this is because the men do not allow them to do that. 
[i]
Years ago I went to render a hand or two to a friend of my mum whose son was wedding and as I was seated with some women, a wife of a certain business mogul narrated how she built a house for her family without her husband knowing. It was supposed to be a secret but she only spilled it because another woman in our midst then was acting up "that her husband is richer than everybody and spends lots of money on her" and when she left the gathering this rich man's wife began to diss her and was like "look at this one that has not achieved anything" that is when she started spilling her own secret.  [/i]Men ought to know by now that hushing up your wife and enclosing her and her aspirations can even make her strive to achieve them in secrecy and at a greater cost compared to when there is an understanding on both sides.

The same goes for a man, some men don't feel free in their marriage because their wives wants them moulded in a certain kind of way. Many wives won't hear of their men spending time out with friends or hanging out and having fun with others. We always hear some bad notes attached to some life stories here of husband going to a club or going out for drinks etc I heard a young man lamenting the other day in this forum about his fears of getting imprisoned in his oncoming marriage and I simply told him not to have that notion of marriage or it may give him hypertension and fears as he was already having. All these hide and seek in marriage should not be, men and women should be free inside marriage. Free to be themselves.

Nobody should be restricted from enjoying their life fully.  I mean if a woman should not be allowed to aspire and be what she wants to be, why was she given her own brain, thinking faculty, drives etc like a man has too. Men should start chilling a bit in marriage and letting us women be ourselves please,the same thing applies to women. That will make marriage sweet and very freeing with no one feeling imprisoned. Couples can have their joint accounts and plans for their family but individuality should still be maintained and a woman can be allowed her own different accounts by the side with which to handle other good stuffs she may want to do. Her success is still the success of her husband and her children. I know some men won't have that, some are too scared of their wife being more successful to tolerate that, i guess that is why some men are very comfortable with a stay-at-home wife but let the stay-at-home wife get into a business and starts getting successful and discomfort will set in, some can even kill a woman for that.

What is your take on this topic dearie?

@ topic

no, but sometimes individuality isnt the priority.

Hey! I am not surprised to have Tpia here, how are you girlie?
I would have hanged out here to enjoy a chat with you on this but I have to run out now for something.
Will chat you up later. Stay cool

The subjugation women suffer in marriage stems from the (largely African)belief that women are the mothers and their place is at home with the children and not making money with the husband, but in my opinion, women can work if the men join hands in running the home and taking care of the children, they can keep pride aside and do it afterall it is also their family, not just the wives'. That way, she might not have to lose her individuality.
No offence intended to men that believe in upholding ancient/ice age traditional values.

only in nairaland

but this is why i will never marry a nigerian man, they are all cheaters

fellis:

The subjugation women suffer in marriage stems from the (largely African)belief that women are the mothers and their place is at home with the children and not making money with the husband, but in my opinion, women can work if the men join hands in running the home and taking care of the children, they can keep pride aside and do it afterall it is also their family, not just the wives'. That way, she might not have to lose her individuality.
No offence intended to men that believe in upholding ancient/ice age traditional values.

GBAM, Well spoken! I am by no means a feminist(big difference between feminism and individuality as regards to females). Most men mis-contrue both arguing on biblical precepts that are largely one sided i e( "the bible says that women should be submissive to their husbands etc etc) but the same bible and even the Koran says that Husbands should love their wives like their own bodies! Individuality is a "HUMAN RIGHT ISSUE" and cuts across gender lines(males and females). Even God/Allah gives lets us have our individuality by allowing us to choose what we want to do, which may or may not be right for us but its our "individual right of choice" which he has given everyone on this earth.

I would not want to stifle my husband and make his life miserable because he is married to me and vice versa. I think respect from both parties is essential in any union be it a marraige or relationship and shows maturity from both parties.

tpia@:

@ topic
no, but sometimes individuality isnt the priority.

The part I mentioned about having joint accounts for the family plans but women being allowed to still have their accounts and do other stuffs too is an indication that I am putting the family first here. The two have a family to take care of and should have a plan for their home first.

9jafetish:

only in nairaland
but this is why i will never marry a nigerian man, they are all cheaters

All Nigerian men are not cheats dear. There are plenty good ones that love and respect their women.

fellis:

The subjugation women suffer in marriage stems from the (largely African)belief that women are the mothers and their place is at home with the children and not making money with the husband, but in my opinion, women can work if the men join hands in running the home and taking care of the children, they can keep pride aside and do it afterall it is also their family, not just the wives'. That way, she might not have to lose her individuality.
No offence intended to men that believe in upholding ancient/ice age traditional values.

You made it sound like women have been relegated to the home and not allowed to work. I know that nowadays 80% married women are out there struggling with their men to take care of their families. It's only a handful of women that are housewives nowadays.
Yes you are right about the part about keeping pride aside and men embracing their women along with their successes without having inferiority complex. A lot of men have a problem with that and that can cause lots of friction in a home. 

Pettitegal:

GBAM, Well spoken! I am by no means a feminist(big difference between feminism and individuality as regards to females). Most men mis-contrue both arguing on biblical precepts that are largely one sided i e( "the bible says that women should be submissive to their husbands etc etc) but the same bible and even the Koran says that Husbands should love their wives like their own bodies! Individuality is a "HUMAN RIGHT ISSUE" and cuts across gender lines(males and females). Even God/Allah gives lets us have our individuality by allowing us to choose what we want to do, which may or may not be right for us but its our "individual right of choice" which he has given everyone on this earth.
I would not want to stifle my husband and make his life miserable because he is married to me and vice versa. I think respect from both parties is essential in any union be it a marraige or relationship and shows maturity from both parties.

You just said the word dearie "RESPECT", with that two persons in a marriage can wade many waters and can be at peace enough to be themselves knowing that their spouse respects who they are, their dreams and aspirations.

Ivynwa:

This topic emanated from the Jlo/Marc Split which seems to have been caused by the overbearing attitude of one of them.

This is Jlo's third failed marriage, when you include her uncountable failed relationships then you begin to wonder if the problem isnt Jlo herself and nothing to do with the overbearing attitude of all her men. You can only be so unlucky.

Ivynwa:

I have seen threads here that have discussed the issue of a woman earning more than her man etc but this is different, this is about a woman being allowed to be herself in marriage and not pretend and hide some good things because the man does not want to hear that she has a mind of her own as to mention wanting to do those things. This is the umpteenth time I am hearing women in such marriages wanting out and saying that they refuse to compromise but will rather be themselves. We are not advocating that people leave their marriages just wondering whether it won't be great if husbands allow their wives to be real and wives allow their husbands to be real too. It may even save the increasing rate of divorce.

sigh. All this has more to do with the rise of liberalism. what is the meaning of "being themselves"? Wasnt marriage designed to be an institution where the term "I" is replaced by "we"? Marriage itself is all about compromise . . . i do not want to be responsible for another man's daughter either but the day i choose to marry her, i no longer have that choice. Her welfare, upkeep and happiness becomes my sole responsibility . . . i no longer have the choice to "be myself" and spend my entire salary at the bar with the boys.

Ivynwa:

Methinks that a woman should not lose her individuality in marriage, a woman should be allowed to be herself even when married to a man. She should still have the right to dream, aspire and be what she wants to be. I know this couple that are both professionals and were having this great problem because the woman is building a house and the man does not want her to, he wants her salary stashed in his account for him to use and do what he wants and wants to build with.  This is a woman that her family spent all they have on to have her graduate as a doctor and now that she is earning good and decided to repay her family with a little shelter and her husband does not want to hear that. What is that? Should a woman stop aspiring because now she is married and her individuality has been hidden and taken over by her man? I have even heard of women who build houses, buy properties and make big investments behind the backs of their husband, this is because the men do not allow them to do that. 

So i assume you would agree that a man whose family also spent all they had to have him graduate as a doctor earning good pay should also be free to do what he likes with his cash right? I would assume you would not expect him to feed you, maintain your home, plan for the upkeep of your kids, and grant you expensive vacations right? Afterall he too needs to be himself?

A marriage is in serious trouble the minute the man or woman starts thinking of important decisions from a "my individuality" stand point. Your friend building a house with her "good pay" . . . would be happy if her husband also went ahead and built a house without her input? would she be pleased if hubby just went out and bought his brother a car without her knowing about it? Is she able to save her "good pay" to build a house because her husband is solely responsible for everything else around the house? I wonder if she would have money to build a house where she a single mother.

Ivynwa:

Nobody should be restricted from enjoying their life fully. 

Perhaps it would be better they remain single so they can enjoy their lives fully?

iice:


Anyway i don't believe in losing individuality in anywhere. Yes you compromise and prioritize but you still do things that make you you.

This.


lose your individuality and lose what makes you, you. and become someone else's bobble head

you can still be married and be independent

~Sissy~:

This.


lose your individuality and lose what makes you, you. and become someone else's bobble head

you can still be married and be independent

Have you tried it?

I kind of agree with Davidylan. I guess the key phrase is 'mutual respect for both parties'.

@ OP

I think you are mixing two things up here.
Individuality and aspirations.
A woman building a house behind her husband has nothing to with her individuality. Is it really the best to do things behind your spouse's back? If you are her husband and find out, what would you think/do? Do unto others what you want them to do to you.

Remember for a marriage to work, the two people must come to a compromise on certain issues.
Not compromising is what actually breaks a marriage.

I agree with tpia: "sometimes individuality is not the priority."

I agree with some of the things here, but not all.  I think people are getting "individuality" mixed up.

Marriage is about interdependence.  You as an individual, merge with another.  You may become a virtual "one" but in every real sense you are still separate people.  It is about complimenting the other, supporting the other, and compromise.  You do not lose your sense of "self" in marriage, but your thinking has to change from just want you want to what is best for us.

Once you start  demanding respect and controlling what the other person can and cannot do, you are basically taking away any right they have to be free within the context of their relationship with you.  And you obvious have issues.

Freedom has its limitations, and there is a freedom within marriage that allows you to be yourself.  So long as you are both considerate of each other, the focus should be on bringing out the best in each other, no secrets, no hidden agendas.  The problem is that many people get married based on poor examples and have unrealistic expectations.

I totally agree with Davidylan n oohunt, they've said it all.

I think Jlo is the one with the issues. She wouldn't have gotten to this stage if she had bothered to make her first marriage work, infact she could have made that marriage work, there wasn't any big complications. She was busy pursuing fame and forgot that she had a family to protect.

Davidylan has said it all. If people aren't ready to give up certain aspects of their individuality and share their lives fully with someone else, marriage isn't for them. Marriage aside, most relationships are about compromise.

And OP's original post was much too long!!!!

Nice topic. Great contributions.

@OP. No, women shouldn't lose their individuality in marriage. Mutual respect for individual's aspirations is important, interdependence also. But I do not like the part of a woman doing things behind her husband or husband doing things without wifey's knowledge. That's sign of a disjointed family.

It's true some men do not like their wives been successful but I think there are ways of taming such men. Secrecy isn't one of them.

naijangel7:

Davidylan has said it all. If people aren't ready to give up certain aspects of their individuality and share their lives fully with someone else, marriage isn't for them. Marriage aside, most relationships are about compromise.

And OP's original post was much too long!!!!

I think the problem is that men, and indeed the society expects only the woman to give up her individuality but the men could go on to live 'normally'.

it depends on what d "individuality" is. You have to take in to account the fact that in some cases, that "individuality" might be what attracted the lady to the man,
In Jlo's case, her individuality is her career. However I do believe there isn't a yes or no answer but rather compromises will be needed if individuAlities become a cause for dispute in a marriage.

I think what ivynwa is trying to say is that a lot of women are forced to lose themselves in marriage. It's all very well for daviddylan to say marriage is all about the 'we' rather than the I but the fact remains that it always leans towards the stronger party which in most African households is the man.

Fact remains that women are held to a higher standard than men in a marriage whilst having less rights. A man can go to the bar with his mates and come back drunk and maybe nothing will happen. Let the woman even come back late and it's like the Spanish inquisition.

And yes, most people can tell that this is what the person is like before marriage but some choose to wilfully ignore it.

jennykadry:

I think Jlo is the one with the issues. She wouldn't have gotten to this stage if she had bothered to make her first marriage work, infact she could have made that marriage work, there wasn't any big complications.  She was busy pursuing fame and forgot that she had a family to protect.

The question you have to ask is what examples of good marriage/relationships did JLo grow up with?  Maybe she needed a controlling person like Marc Anthony, and I'm sure he wasn't that way without a reason.

zayhal:

I think the problem is that men, and indeed the society expects  only the woman to give up her individuality but the men could go on to live 'normally'.

This is what I have a problem with; change seems to only be focussed on the female in the relationship, as if the other party's mere existence will make the relationship work with little effort on their part. Suprted has pretty much said it all - double standards.

zayhal:

I think the problem is that men, and indeed the society expects only the woman to give up her individuality but the men could go on to live 'normally'.

huh? I think that's very wrong. The minute a man gets married, it is a given in our society that he is now fully in charge. Everything that has to do with financially supporting his nuclear and extended (including his wife's) family become his own burden. I doubt that translates to "live normally". My own idea of "living normally" from a man's point of view would be - we contribute 50:50 to paying rent, bills, food, kids upkeep then i can do what i want with the rest without telling you. But no woman would accept that no?

I think this issue of "individuality" comes from a society where women are no longer accepting of traditional gender roles. no woman wants to submit to her husband anymore, none of them wants to be seen as the cook, house cleaner and baby-making machine anymore. We all want to wear pants and act macho all in the name of "individuality". Women now want the freedom to refuse to be under authority to their husbands (some men abuse this though) . . . they just couch it in flowery language called "individuality".
The beauty of a broom is that all the sticks move in the same direction. If half decided to go the other way in the name of "individuality" it would be pretty difficult to sweep up bread crumbs.

great point there davidylan but one thing . . . and i'm not sure what you mean by
50:50 to bills and house stuff and the rest you do what you want without telling your wife?
what if you use the rest to pay for strip club shouldn't your wife say something about that?

Nice post Ivy but this is what I think . . .

I won't marry a man who makes me feel uncomfortable about being myself or being who I am . . . and in the same way, I won't make a man become someone else just because he's married to me!

But like David says, marriage is all about compromise . . If 'being myself' is likely to hurt my family, in any way, then I think I have it in me to look for an alternative.

davidylan:

huh? I think that's very wrong. The minute a man gets married, it is a given in our society that he is now fully in charge. Everything that has to do with financially supporting his nuclear and extended (including his wife's) family become his own burden. I doubt that translates to "live normally". My own idea of "living normally" from a man's point of view would be - we contribute 50:50 to paying rent, bills, food, kids upkeep then i can do what i want with the rest without telling you. But no woman would accept that no?

I think this issue of "individuality" comes from a society where women are no longer accepting of traditional gender roles. no woman wants to submit to her husband anymore, none of them wants to be seen as the cook, house cleaner and baby-making machine anymore. We all want to wear pants and act macho all in the name of "individuality". Women now want the freedom to refuse to be under authority to their husbands (some men abuse this though) . . . they just couch it in flowery language called "individuality".
The beauty of a broom is that all the sticks move in the same direction. If half decided to go the other way in the name of "individuality" it would be pretty difficult to sweep up bread crumbs.

I think you generalize when you say 'no woman will accept it'!

I'll be too glad to split the bills 50/50 if we'll split the chores 50/50. My arguemnt is that for ages now, men have been eating their cakes and having it! Women works as hard as men (sometimes more0 and yet for some reason, they are the designated housekeepers. That is the part I can Never understand about marriage!

armyofone:

great point there davidylan but one thing . . . and i'm not sure what you mean by
50:50 to bills and house stuff and the rest you do what you want without telling your wife?
what if you use the rest to pay for strip club shouldn't your wife say something about that?

going to a bar that offers strippers as entertainment is no different from watchin p0rn0graphy, note that the main issue in this discussion is not infidelity.

Ujujoan:


I think you generalize when you say 'no woman will accept it'!

I'll be too glad to split the bills 50/50 if we'll split the chores 50/50. My arguemnt is that for ages now, men have been eating their cakes and having it! Women works as hard as men (sometimes more0 and yet for some reason, they are the designated housekeepers. That is the part I can Never understand about marriage!

if you put 50 on the table, im sure you can get all the house keeping help you need to do everything from sweeping to cooking and cleaning.

all over the western world, there are millions of women who have never boiled water in the life talkless of doing laundry. they elect to be equal to men and are willing to pay for it. they put 50 on the table and dont clean up after the man they're with cos thats part of the agreement. some dont even have children cos they know that it is impossible to share the pregnancy 50/50

my problem is that african women want to have this level of freedom but refuse to stand up and be a man.

if you want to have a traditional wedding and have dowry paid to your family, if you want to be wooed by a man so that people will not say u're desperate and running after a man. if you wont step up and propose marriage then dont turn around and demand equality

when african women grow the balls to be equal, they will not need to demand equal rights, you know why? because they are already equal to their men

for the woman you mean?? african marriage does allow individuality for the male and not female. which is why a man can do so many things and get away with it unlike a woman.
go to clubs in naija and see men all sitting and chatting plus soaking up beer and eating ngwogwo/suya. where is the madam? at home tending to the kitchen and the children.

philipine:

H mm African marriage  doesn't allow individuality @ all. You have to bury what ever you might feel and follow your husband . If you don't  your hubby might get a girl on the side and all that,  In my marriage my husband comes first it makes me sick to my stomach. However, l try to show what l feel it turns all sour!

Ujujoan:


I think you generalize when you say 'no woman will accept it'!

I'll be too glad to split the bills 50/50 if we'll split the chores 50/50. My arguemnt is that for ages now, men have been eating their cakes and having it! Women works as hard as men (sometimes more0 and yet for some reason, they are the designated housekeepers. That is the part I can Never understand about marriage!

me too. very true Uju. i think we should work at changing things and refine the men in our lives.

philipine:

H mm African marriage  doesn't allow individuality @ all. You have to bury what ever you might feel and follow your husband . If you don't  your hubby might get a girl on the side and all that, 

actually, if he's so inclined, the man will still get girls on the side no matter what the wife does.

havent you seen the many threads discussing such here.

philipine:

H mm African marriage  doesn't allow individuality @ all. You have to bury what ever you might feel and follow your husband . If you don't  your hubby might get a girl on the side and all that,  In my marriage my husband comes first it makes me sick to my stomach. However, l try to show what l feel it turns all sour!

Maybe it is generally seen as such as in, the culture and the general view and opinion of marriage in the african mind, but in reality I don't think we should quickly generalize. Burying what you feel is not necessarily exactly equal = losing your individuality. I just think that's too simplified. Personalities, characters, circumstances and many other factors weight into the husband-wife dynamics. I know and have seen many husbands who encourage their wife in the things that they like to do/are good at doing, whether it is a business, studying, some type of a craft etc. That is supporting one's uniqueness and individuality.
Marriage is the ideal medium in which you are supposed to feel and be yourself, and feel comfortable enough to express your feelings (depending on your character and how assertive you are). Now if your husband prevents you or exerts a psychological pressure that prevents you from expressing your feelings then there is a BIG issue and I do not think that most african marriages are like that. A lot of african women are strong, mature women who submit to their husbands by choice and out of being wise, not because they necessarily are weak/weaker. My mom always told me (when I used to get angry at her for not responding to my dad when he was saying things that were out of line in our presence), that she stays quiet out of strength (it takes more strength and discipline to not say anything and be the bigger person) not out a weakness, she would hum christian song and that would calm her down, while he is was yelling but she would never respond and let him keep making a fool of himself until he got tired and realized she wasnt even listening. And she is the type of woman that is very straightforward and speaks her mind; except she knew when and how.
One has to be able to choose one's battles. What is most important to you? If your husband loves you in a healthy way and cares for you, he will support you and help build a safe and balanced environment in which he is only a part of that environment (leaving room for friends, work, hobbies, family, church, etc etc.) And I think that is universal, nothing to do with being african.
Lastly the woman too has to know how to sell herself. You cant just say yes to your husband all the time. He has to know that you are strong, and have your own opinions and ideas. You can say no very respectfully and with a smile without it sounding like a no. Give yourself character, loving, strong, calm, firm character. But at the end of the day looking in the same direction is the goal. Choosing the right battle to find and learning to lead from behind is paramount.