Zikkyy:

You guessed right

Bros since i ve now become a good guesser, cant u answer the rhetoric ur self?

Zikkyy:

you think so?

Isnt it obvious that u never fully understood my post before commenting and quoting same?

Zikkyy:

believing there are 'no restrictions' is not a[b] license for wasteful spending[/b]. why over-burden the members with avoidable cost.

Whats ur evidence that it a wasteful spending?

Zikkyy:

even if some other pastor is already serving this purpose?

U have just been equivocating with ur responses so far. Are the numbers of pple to propagate the gospel of christ limited and restricted?

How many disciples did Christ have during his life time all together both known and unknown? How many disciples took up sharing of the gospel of Christ after he ascended into heaven?

toba:

I still await u to give me verifiable evidence of how a church is now a business

I am not close to your church admin, so there is no way i will know, abi.

toba:

is that all u could deduse from my post? kindly go review it to decode the uncoded message i was passing.  Is there anything that suggests we were chasing  N200,000 with N500,000?

whatever gave you the impression that i was referring to your post you did not think i was also passing a message utilizing info obtained from your post?

toba:

Bros since i ve now become a good guesser, cant u answer the rhetoric your self?

If you've been reading, you would have observed the question already been answered.

toba:

Isnt it obvious that u never fully understood my post before commenting and quoting same?

No it's not obvious.

toba:

Whats your evidence that it a wasteful spending?

No statistics to show that you have received value for money.

toba:

U have just been equivocating with your responses so far. Are the numbers of pple to propagate the gospel of christ limited and restricted?

It's easier if you ask for clarification.

brb :-x

@ Jesoul and petres

I sorry ma and sir; make una no vex, na small pickin dey worry me, i am ver very sorrity and very sorry at all at all.

@toba

TV ministry m-industry is wholly ineffective at making new converts to Christianity, the "returns" (i.e. new converts or repentants) are very small in numbers; it is only useful for brand awareness, marketing the particular "GO" and his "church" and in some circumstances raising money. Go and do a bit of research and see if what I'm saying is not true.

On the other hand: imagine if a church has 1000 members and even only 500 of them are exhibiting Christ-like fruit and demonstrating it to people they come in contact with ---- TV m-industry will not be able to match the results. Think about it. 

the tv ministry is quite huge it reaches a lot of people,but the internet is bigger which means more money

Zikkyy:

I am not close to your church admin, so there is no way i will know, abi.

Of i know that u arent close. the point is you said church is a business. all im expecting u to do is to provide verifiable evidence that the church thats supposed to be for propagating the gospel is a business. U ve made an assertion. kindly back it up. if u failed to do so this time then u are not to be taken serious hence forth

Zikkyy:

whatever gave you the impression that i was referring to your post you did not think i was also passing a message utilizing info obtained from your post?

SMH at this response. Hope u are aware that we are discussing using English language and i do hope u can read and understand ur own post9I really doubt these based on why u ve asked an incredible question )

You quoted my post that was directed to Enigma and responded to it yet u are asking me 'whatever gave you the impression that i was referring to your post'? Smdh once again. Like tpia said u are just zigzagging on this ur thread with little or very poor knowledge of ur own very topic

Zikkyy:

If you've been reading, you would have observed the question already been answered.

Really? can u please give me the particular post wherein the question was answered?

Zikkyy:

No it's not obvious.

How more obvious can it be when u are refused to back up ur assertion? Give me verifiable proof that the church is indeed a business venture

Zikkyy:

No statistics to show that you have received value for money.

How sure are u with this satement? Was the money spent to measure the value in terms of benefit to man or to God? Sir u are confused and just chating off point things here. U absolutely know nothing about what u want us to discuss since u lifted the Op from an external source which didnt originate from ur self

Zikkyy:

It's easier if you ask for clarification.

Ok can u be kind enough to give clarification to what u are driving at with most of ur vague comments on this thread?

toba:

Of i know that u arent close. the point is you said church is a business. all im expecting u to do is to provide verifiable evidence that the church thats supposed to be for propagating the gospel is a business. U ve made an assertion. kindly back it up. if u failed to do so this time then u are not to be taken serious hence forth . . . .

Some of the pastors themselves have been quoted as saying church is a business. Examples:

From here https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-681393.192.html#msg8454389

http://www.newswatchngr.com/editorial/prime/Cover/10820085539.htm

David Oyedepo, bishop of the Living Faith Church, also known as Winners Chapel vividly captured the reason for the business approach of many Pentecostal pastors to evangelism in his book Exploits In Ministry.

In the book, he [b]described ministry as "essentially business." He says: "Without doubt, one of the reasons why most ministries ordained of God fall short of expectation or collapse completely is due to their unbusiness-like approach to ministry. Ministry is essentially business. Jesus said: Wist ye not that I must be about my father's business (Luke 2:49). It is God's business, not the father's religion… We have been accused of turning ministry into a business. But that is not true.

We met it as a business, Jesus, the author and founder of Ministry told us it is a business."

Oyedepo explained that just as business involves investment and profit making, pastors invest in ministry to make profit. It is, therefore, little wonder that today, Oyedepo and some other wealthy pentecostal pastors have re-invented the core meaning of Christianity by pushing the frontiers of affluence in the socio-political, business and educational realms of Nigeria[/b]

(EDIT Please note that it is a huge fat LIE that Jesus said ministry is a "business"; it is a very disgraceful misinterpretation of scripture!)


From Eddie Long's website http://www.newbirth.org/contact_us/directory

Office of the Senior Pastor
The Office of Bishop Eddie L. Long (BELL) serves as the Chief Executive Office of New Birth. The office is comprised of the Office of the First Lady, Executive Office Staff, the Father’s House and the Spanish Ministry.

There is also a quote where Eddie Long said that he is to be compared to the Chief Executive of a multi-million dollar corporation. If I find the quote, I will post it here.

toba:

Of i know that u arent close. the point is you said church is a business. all im expecting u to do is to provide verifiable evidence that the church thats supposed to be for propagating the gospel is a business. U ve made an assertion. kindly back it up. if u failed to do so this time then u are not to be taken serious hence forth

Good point

Enigma let me respond to u base on what u've quoted/posted

David Oyedepo, bishop of the Living Faith Church, also known as Winners Chapel vividly captured the reason for the business approach [/b]of many Pentecostal pastors to evangelism in his book Exploits In Ministry.

In the book, he described ministry as "essentially business." He says: "Without doubt, one of the reasons why most ministries ordained of God fall short of expectation or collapse completely is due to their [b]unbusiness-like approach to ministry. Ministry is essentially business. Jesus said: Wist ye not that I must be about my father's business (Luke 2:49). It is God's business, not the father's religion… We have been accused of turning ministry into a business. But that is not true.

We met it as a business, Jesus, the author and founder of Ministry told us it is a business.

take not of the characters in bold. If jesus called it business and christ have told us to do likewise in remembrance of him, whats wrong in the way Bishop Oyedepo described the ministry as a 'business'

@toba

There are two problems with your post.

1. You have so far been arguing that church is not business --- now you are arguing that it is!    Is that because of Oyedepo?

2. Jesus did not describe ministry as a "business". If you care please explain how Jesus' statement means that church work/ministry/affair is a "business" in the sense of commercial enterprise. Also, please explain then why Jesus drove out the money changers from the temple!   

Azibalua:

the tv ministry is quite huge it reaches a lot of people,but the internet is bigger which means more money

CEC and their PR gang! I hope this NL ministry is not costing too much for you church ooooo

Azibalua, do you care to give us an informed opinion on what the costs for internet broadcasts/podcasts are? I would think you guys already had a link and some computers coupled with some web cams, what cost is there?

@Toba, Pastor JoAgbaje already stated in another thread that the CEC church is not a "charity organization" so if you're not a charity orginazation aren't you effectively a BUSINESS?

Little wonder Nigerian Churches(mainly) in the UK are registering as BUSINESSES now to avoid charity commission oversight! Una do well ooooo

@Enigma.
We need to understand the meaning of business in this context. im sure ur own meaning of church being a business is that which is equal to other business organization like Coke, Pepsi, Zenith Bank etc. Mine is not. The business idea i supported in Bishop Oyedepo's comment is the business of engaging in an activity of making profit as u guys are believing it is. Except if u want to tell me that christ also meant the normal profit oriented businesses.

My own kind of business is similar but not restricted to what Jesoul, manmustwac, Mukina2 etc are doing on Nairaland. Not to enrich themselves but be business like is discharging their jobs as moderators.

Now in the case of church, the main orientation should be winning souls for christ and then the pastors shouldn't be hungry/starve. The business im talking about here is winning souls and preaching the gospel of Christ in whatever(not immoral way though) way to get across to if possible billions of pple through Tv, plane, jet, tricycle, bicycle etc.

toba:

Ok can u be kind enough to give clarification to what u are driving at  with most of your vague comments on this thread?

Good that you asked for clarification. While i agree that my post are sometimes not clearly expressed, i also expect you to task your brain a little.

toba:

the point is you said church is a business. all im expecting u to do is to provide verifiable evidence that the church thats supposed to be for propagating the gospel is a business. U ve made an assertion. kindly back it up.

This is not true. You've mis-interpreted my post. i don't remember referring to the church as a business. If you want a discussion on whether a church is a business or not, i will be willing to. But it's good we are clear on the issue of zikkyy calling the church a business.

toba:

Like tpia said u are just zigzagging on this your thread with little or very poor knowledge of your own very topic

Faulty assumptions. The topic was meant for the attention of a particular group of people. They did read and got the message. I have made no attempt to comment on the topic itself, but chose to respond to any post i find interesting.  That's one reason i ignored your post (No. 1) and tpia's as well.

toba:

Hope u are aware that we are discussing using English language and i do hope u can read and understand your own post9I really doubt these based on why u ve asked an incredible question  )

You quoted my post that was directed to Enigma and responded to it yet u are asking me 'whatever gave you the impression that i was referring to your post'?

Your post below . . . .

toba:

Who told u that the church is advertising like coke, Pepsi etc and not actually propagating the gospel on Tv? so all the media publications by  preaching and reaching out to pple are adverts that can be compared to what other nonreligious brand put up on Air?

. . . .  my response

Zikkyy:

You mean you don't know No wonder you guys were chasing N200,000 with N500,000

Let me re-phrase for clarification purpose:

"You mean you don't know You guys believed you have been propagating the gospel all this while, no wonder [s]you guys were chasing N200,000 with N500,000[/s]  you've been spending in excess of your revenue" I hope i make more sense now.

and your conclusion was that zikkyy did not properly 'decode' your message in post (10).

toba:

can u please give me the particular post wherein the question was answered?

see below. . . . .

Zikkyy:

What wrong with you adopting a means that yield the most returns? You don't have to adopt a particular approach because some other churches are already doing that.

you want me to rephrase? for you i will.

"What wrong with you adopting a means that yield the most returns? [s]You don't have to adopt a particular approach because some other churches are already doing that[/s] you don't need to overburden the church using t.v just because others (mega churches) are using t.v. consider a more (economical) approach that helps you manage your cashflows while spreading the message".

toba:

Sir u are confused and just chating off point things here. U absolutely know nothing about what u want us to discuss since u lifted the Op from an external source which didnt originate from your self.

No problem if you think i m confused. But it's good you know i did not at anytime claimed ownership of the topic, and have not made any serious attempt to discuss the topic.

toba:

How sure are u with this satement? Was the money spent to measure the value in terms of benefit to man or to God?

it's the church spending the money. There has to be an objective. You don't go to t.v. without an objective (that's even worse). It's considered a waste if you are unable to measure the degree of success achieved. even if the value was to God, you should be able to tell if you achieved it. I have heard a number of times that the purpose is to win souls. Question: is television an effective tool for soul winning (taking into consideration the size of the fund expended) and how do you measure rate of success.