KnownUnknown:

What is sin?

To me, sin is anything that shortens life on this earth.

KnownUnknown:

Christ promoted the “kingdom of god”.

And what to you is "the Kingdom of God"?

KnownUnknown:
Maybe you also misunderstand the Garden of Eden.

Maybe I do. Thankfully, you can read it too and point out my misunderstanding and correct me, just as I am presuming to correct the op.

budaatum:


Not only propaganda, but programming to fool the gullible into not listening to what he was teaching.

What makes you think he taught that?
This doesn’t address the questions I brought up about the “the Jews”.
Are you trying to fool the gullible by quoting propaganda?

budaatum:

And that is why one should open one's eyes and see to look for oneself instead of listening to and believing the ignorance such as the op is propagating here.

That’s your opinion. Some would say you are also propagating ignorance.

budaatum:

I may use a hammer to bash your head in, but I doubt you'd blame the hammer, which I can also use to nail bits of wood together to build you a shelter. Same with the story of Adam in the Garden of Eden. Many may read it and be like ignorant Adam, while some may choose to be like use her senses Eve. And some may read Genesis 1 and refuse to be put in the Garden of Eden in the very first place.

“Ignorant Adam” and “Use her senses Eve” are just your opinion about what the story means.

KnownUnknown:


I better pluck it out instead of going “Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched”

There’s no denying that the fear mongering verse is meant to enslave. Like I said, they obviously don’t take it literally so second paragraph is just a disguised insult. Lol

I guess it's your eye, so pluck it out if you want. I'd rather take my offending eye to an optician to have its offence rectified.

The optician has after all eaten the fruits of the tree of the knowledge of eyes and would know how to stop it offending me, so why would I pluck out my eyes when I know a person with more knowledge of eyes than I who can correct my eyes for me?

budaatum:

To me, sin is anything that shortens life on this earth.

Interesting definition. Care to expand?

budaatum:

And what to you is "the Kingdom of God"?

Nothing.

budaatum:

Maybe I do. Thankfully, you can read it too and point out my misunderstanding and correct me, just as I am presuming to correct the op.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.

KnownUnknown:

“Ignorant Adam” and “Use her senses Eve” are just your opinion about what the story means.

I never said they were anything but my own opinion.

My own opinion is that a person who walks by a tree of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil and refuses to check if eating it would kill them, is ignorant and would remain ignorant because they have refused to nourish themselves with fruits that would give them knowledge.

And a person who uses their own eye sense to looks at said fruit and find it good for food, and then uses their own sense of taste to eat and check if it would kill them is rather much more intelligent.

One believes they would die, while one is willing to check if they'd die, and I know which I'd rather be.

KnownUnknown:

Interesting definition. Care to expand?

What is there to expand on? Care to ask a direct question? It would show where to start.

KnownUnknown:

Nothing.

And that's what it means to you. To me it means peace of mind on this very earth. Psalm 15 might explain it you better.

KnownUnknown:
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.

Now, why the heck would I want to leave the world to be deceived when the world they create with their deception affects me too?

When NEPA takes light in Nigeria do they not take my light too? Or do you not understand that no light is a consequence of their ignorant deception?

budaatum:


I never said they were anything but my own opinion.

And OP has his.

budaatum:

My own opinion is that a person who walks by a tree of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil and refuses to check if eating it would kill them, is ignorant and would remain ignorant because they have refused to nourish themselves with fruits that would give them knowledge.

Cool. If they were ignorant, how would they have any notion of “knowledge of good and evil”? As far as their concerned, “knowledge of good and evil” is not something to be desired or eschewed because they were “ignorant”.

budaatum:

And a person who uses their own eye sense to looks at said fruit and find it good for food, and then uses their own sense of taste to eat and check if it would kill them is rather much more intelligent.

Really? Eve would listen and obey the last person (or snake) to talk to her because she was “ignorant”. If the serpent told her not to eat the fruit, she would have complied and there is no reason to think that Adam wouldn’t have eaten the fruit if the serpent had told him to. Regardless, the garden isn’t even a “garden”

budaatum:

One believes they would die, while one is willing to check if they'd die, and I know which I'd rather be.

How would you know what “die” means if you are ignorant?

budaatum:

What is there to expand on? Care to ask a direct question? It would show where to start.

Cancer can shorten life and suicide(because of unbearable pain from the cancer) can shorten life. Which one is a sin since you defined sin as anything that shortens life.

War shortens life. Who is the sinner between the Russian and the Ukrainian?

KnownUnknown:

And OP has his.

And readers get to consider both.

KnownUnknown:
Cool. If they were ignorant, how would they have any notion of “knowledge of good and evil”? As far as their concerned, “knowledge of good and evil” is not something to be desired or eschewed because they were “ignorant”.

You should really ask how those created in God's image could possibly have been made to be ignorant in the first place. After all, the God who created in its image could not possibly have been ignorant or it couldn't have possibly created anything. But as you said, "as far as they were concerned", and not "as far as I who is reading about them is concerned".

To me, knowledge can not possibly be "not something to be desired or eschewed". And if you placed me in the Garden of Eden my only food would be the fruit of the tree of the knowledge, and God please do your damned worst!

KnownUnknown:
Really? Eve would listen and obey the last person (or snake) to talk to her because she was “ignorant”. If the serpent has told her not to eat the fruit, she would have complied and there is no reason to think that Adam wouldn’t have eaten the fruit if the serpent had told him to.

That lovely snake, lol. Do you seriously expect the story to read "and Eve the woman used her own mind to think for herself"?

I don't think men who wrote a book to convince the woman she was a rib would want her to discover her own mind.

KnownUnknown:
How would you know what “die” means if you are ignorant?

I don't think I'd know what "die" means if I were ignorant. So I'd ask the person who told me I'd die what the heck die meant, wouldn't I, since I'm too ignorant to know. And then I'd go check what the person meant instead of merely believing what I'm told.

budaatum:


And that's what it means to you. To me it means peace of mind on this very earth. Psalm 15 might explain it you better.

Cool.

budaatum:

Now, why the heck would I want to leave the world to be deceived when the world they create with their deception affects me too?

One, people have been deceived since time immemorial.

Two, I think the deception is necessary because people are animals one step removed from the harshness of nature. I’ll rather they keep staring at the shadows in the cave.

Three, you can fight the deception battles when needed but it’s a war that can only be lost.

KnownUnknown:

Cancer can shorten life and suicide(because of unbearable pain from the cancer) can shorten life. Which one is a sin since you defined sin as anything that shortens life.

Cancer is an illness. It can be caused by not living right which I would call a sin. If I commit the sin (another word for which is error) of smoking, for instance, I may get throat cancer, or if I sit on my ass all day I might get cancer of the ass.

Suicide is the result of the sin of being weak and unable to bear pain, which can easily be overcome with knowledge that empowers one.

KnownUnknown:
War shortens life. Who is the sinner between the Russian and the Ukrainian?

It is my own opinion that Russia, the instigator, is the sinner here, but recognise opinions differ.

budaatum:

You should really ask how those created in God's image could possibly have been made to be ignorant in the first place.

Created in God’s image. What does that mean?
What is God? What is God’s image?

budaatum:

After all, the God who created in its image could not possibly have been ignorant or it couldn't have possibly created anything.

Hey, you can’t tell. If you say this God created in its image, this could very well be a foolish design as far as “creation” is concerned. I mean God’s contemporaries could be laughing and pointing at God’s creation.

budaatum:

To me, knowledge can not possibly be "not something to be desired or eschewed". And if you placed me in the Garden of Eden my only food would be the fruit of the tree of the knowledge, and God please do your damned worst!

Because you are not ignorant of knowledge like the naked drones in the story.

budaatum:

That lovely snake, lol. Do you seriously expect the story to read "and Eve the woman used her own mind to think for herself"?
I don't think men who wrote a book to convince the woman she was a rib would want her to discover her own mind.

Funny thing to say when your whole interpretation is based on the woman in the story using her “senses”. It’s like you are arguing against your own position now.

budaatum:

I don't think I'd know what "die" means if I were ignorant. So I'd ask the person who told me I'd die what the heck die meant, wouldn't I, since I'm too ignorant to know. And then I'd go check what the person meant instead of merely believing what I'm told.

How would you know to ask questions if you are ignorant and don’t know that one of the ways to procure knowledge is by asking questions?

You really can’t praise or denigrate Adam and Eve based on “knowledge”.

KnownUnknown:

One, people have been deceived since time immemorial.

That is no reason to allow oneself to be deceived, or you would have joined them in their deception by now!

KnownUnknown:
Two, I think the deception is necessary because people are animals one step removed from the harshness of nature. I’ll rather they keep staring at the shadows in the cave.

I do not accept that "people are animals one step removed from the harshness of nature" because that is not what I have experienced.

You have been conversing with me awhile today and there's nothing yet to suggest to me that you are "people are animals one step removed from the harshness of nature", and I know I am not "people are animals one step removed from the harshness of nature". And I am not prepared to create some crappy unverified belief that "people are animals one step removed from the harshness of nature" because such a stupid belief would be untrue and would only self prophecy itself.

Please know that deception is not necessary for me. I would rather not be deceived, and I see no merit for myself in me deceiving others

KnownUnknown:
Three, you can fight the deception battles when needed but it’s a war that can only be lost.

Unknown. First please note that I have not asked you to join my army to fight in a war against deception that may likely be lost. Jesus fought this same deception and lost. We read that they killed the bugger, then they try to deceive many that he died for their sin, when anyone with eyes would see he was teaching people to overcome their sins. He is indeed the one who stepped out the cave and returned to teach those inside the cave only to have his head bashed in, the poor sod.

There are others we read about who fought wars against deception and did not lose. One should learn from them too and not only from Jesus Christ, especially if one really wants to successfully fight against ignorance and deception.

budaatum:

Cancer is an illness. It can be caused by not living right which I would call a sin. If I commit the sin (another word for which is error) of smoking, for instance, I may get throat cancer, or if I sit on my ass all day I might get cancer of the ass.

Cancer does not depend on “not living right”. Breast cancer does not depend on “not living right”
Sickle cell anemia does not depend on “not living right”.
“Not living right” is a cop out. They all shorten life, are they sins or not?

budaatum:

Suicide is the result of the sin of being weak and unable to bear pain, which can easily be overcome with knowledge that empowers one.

Who are you to tell someone how much pain is bearable? Can you feel another person’s pain or know when it becomes unbearable?

budaatum:

It is my own opinion that Russia, the instigator, is the sinner here, but recognise opinions differ.

The question wasn’t about the instigator. Both sides are at war and war shortens life, instigator or otherwise.

budaatum:

That is no reason to allow oneself to be deceived, or you would have joined them in their deception by now!

It’s not about me.

budaatum:

I do not accept that "people are animals one step removed from the harshness of nature" because that is not what I have experienced.

You have been conversing with me awhile today and there's nothing yet to suggest to me that you are "people are animals one step removed from the harshness of nature", and I know I am not "people are animals one step removed from the harshness of nature". And I am not prepared to create some crappy unverified belief that "people are animals one step removed from the harshness of nature" because such a stupid belief would be untrue and would only self prophecy itself.

Please know that deception is not necessary for me. I would rather not be deceived, and I see no merit for myself in me deceiving others

Mankind has made significant strides from living in the wild and being wild but history bears witness to what I wrote.

budaatum:

Unknown. First please note that I have not asked you to join my army to fight in a war against deception that may likely be lost. Jesus fought this same deception and lost. We read that they killed the bugger, then they try to deceive many that he died for their sin, when anyone with eyes would see he was teaching people to overcome their sins. He is indeed the one who stepped out the cave and returned to teach those inside the cave only to have his head bashed in, the poor sod.

Isn’t the whole purpose of the story is for them to kill the bugger?
What “sins” was he teaching them to overcome?
What was said in the story that was new and hadn’t been heard before?

budaatum:

There are others we read about who fought wars against deception and did not lose. One should learn from them too and not only from Jesus Christ, especially if one really wants to successfully fight against ignorance and deception.

They weren’t fighting a war about the foundation of society itself. Besides, the lies have become the comfortable truth.

KnownUnknown:

Created in God’s image. What does that mean?
What is God? What is God’s image?

It means whatever you understand it to mean to you, Unknown. You've after all read what this God was supposed to be capable of doing before it created anything in its own image to go and do likewise.

As for what God may be, please read here my opinion here
https://www.nairaland.com/4357359/what-god

KnownUnknown:

Hey, you can’t tell. If you say this God created in its image, this could very well be a foolish design as far as “creation” is concerned. I mean God’s contemporaries could be laughing and pointing at God’s creation.

A foolish design that we read in Genesis 1 created the universe and all the things therein?

Then let me be foolish like that too please, for if I do a millionth of that I'd be very pleased with myself.

KnownUnknown:

Because you are not ignorant of knowledge like the naked drones in the story.

And that's because I daily consume fruits of knowledge, Unknown, or I would be ignorant too.

KnownUnknown:
Funny thing to say when your whole interpretation is based on the woman in the story using her “senses”. It’s like you are arguing against your own position now.

Have you considered it is you who does not understand my position here? I mean, though you and I have touched on this in the past, this really is the first time I recall when you've held me to task this much, so it's not as if you fully understand me yet.

Be patient. Give yourself time. You sound intelligent enough to understand what I mean, is my own opinion.

KnownUnknown:
How would you know to ask questions if you are ignorant and don’t know that one of the ways to procure knowledge is by asking questions?

Now, this is what causes me the most pain about this whole entire thing. The Nigerian education system does not teach one to ask questions, is what I find, whereby my own education started with who and what and why and where and when and how too.

I guess I never got placed naked in some Garden of Eden.

KnownUnknown:

You really can’t praise or denigrate Adam and Eve based on “knowledge”.

I can do whatever I want, Unknown, and very easily too since the story of Adam and Eve has a tree of knowledge in it already, and wisdom, and eyes opening too.

Go on. You try it and see if the heavens fall on your head. I assure you my own head is 'heaven fall on' proof.

KnownUnknown:

Mankind has made significant strides from living in the wild and being wild but history bears witness to what I wrote.

And those "strides" are sufficient evidence of you being wrong, at least as far as I am concerned.

KnownUnknown:
Isn’t the whole purpose of the story is for them to kill the bugger?

How can the whole purpose of a story be for them to kill the bugger, Unknown, when the story itself is telling you the bugger was killed?

KnownUnknown:
What “sins” was he teaching them to overcome?

The sin of ignorance, which is the greatest of human sins.

KnownUnknown:

What was said in the story that was new and hadn’t been heard before?

Heard before by whom, Unknown, and not knew to whom?

Are you ignoring the millions around you to whom the story is so new that they don't even understand it yet?

KnownUnknown:
Besides, the lies have become the comfortable truth.

I don't quite know for whom you are claiming "the lies have become the comfortable truth".

I've hopefully left you in no doubt that lies are not the comfortable truth for me.

KnownUnknown:

Cancer does not depend on “not living right”. Breast cancer does not depend on “not living right”
Sickle cell anemia does not depend on “not living right”.
“Not living right” is a cop out. They all shorten life, are they sins or not?

Not knowing how to deal with having them can be considered sin.

Just yesterday I heard of an individual with sickle cell who left UK for Nigeria and died there of the sin of lack of proper medical care.

KnownUnknown:

Who are you to tell someone how much pain is bearable? Can you feel another person’s pain or know when it becomes unbearable?

And where did I tell anyone how much pain anyone should bear or not bear, Unknown?

KnownUnknown:

What the question wasn’t about the instigator. Both sides are at war and war shortens life, instigator or otherwise.

I've expressed my opinion. You hopefully don't mind me expressing it.

2 Peter 3: 8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With YHVH a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

So, yes, Adam indeed died the day he disobeyed his Maker and ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Apt.

Sublime.

KnownUnknown:

What makes you think he taught that?

This is a profound question, KnownUnknown.

It's not so much about what he taught however, but what one learns from reading what is written about him.

Same as I learn from the story of the Garden of Eden to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as opposed to what many appear to learn, which is, eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil will surely kill them. And that, despite it's opposite stated clearly in the same Bible.

It should be very obvious that those who do not eat fruits of knowledge can not possibly "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth". And when such malnourished people say, "Let there be light", the response is more likely to be "NEPA!" As opposed to "And there was Light".