[size=13pt]17.Genesis 13:2
And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold. Note that his riches in cattle, in silver, and in gold predates the tithe of war booty Abraham gave to Melchizedek
The Bible tells us that Abraham was very rich in cattle, silver and in gold, but apart from the tithe on the spoils of war he did not pay any other tithe. This is an indication that tithe before the law was not as it is practiced in churches today, if it was then the Bible would have told us that Abram paid tithes on his cattle, silver and gold before he went to war and returned with the booty of war he pay tithe on. Let no pastor deceive you that you are robbing God by not paying tithes of your income to them, these pastors are the ones robbing you. Be free in Christ, God loves a cheerful giver.[/size]

Really, any argument to support "tithing" other than saying people may do it as part of their voluntary giving and maybe in part to assist with "church" expenses simply cannot be supported from the Bible without sleight of hand.

Justifying institutionalised
tithing the way it is preached and practised in the church today from Abram's one off example of tithing from war booty is the most hypocritical, fraudulent, daft and poor excuse for tithing today. How many of Abram's practises do we copy today sef? Do we offer burnt sacrifices? Do we allow our wives to sleep with pharaohs to protect ourselves? Are we even as christians called to follow the examples of Abram rather than christ? Please let's stop this fraud, anybody dolt can quote any scripture from the bible and manipulate it to suit whatever evil agenda he has. As christians we are followers of christ and we are meant to follow his teachings and not examples of every single character in the bible many of which are not even relevant to our Lord's gospel.

Why are they not tithing "slaves" if they are following Abram? After all Abram's spoils of war seemed to include slaves? Why are they not tithing anything other than money ---- after all Abram's spoils of war included several things that were not money.

In fact the argument that tithing is based on Abram's example is definitely one of the most dangerous because it is much easier to fail to see the fraud ultimately underlying it. It is easier to see through the fraud of tithing preaching based on Malachi, Leviticus, Deuteronomy etc. That is why tithe mongers have now shifted to the Abram chicanery.

Another important point: some of us will ALWAYS continue to fight the tithing fraud as necessary.

The reason? It is at the fulcrum of an important spiritual battle!

If a person is taken in by the tithing scam, he is more susceptible to other false or heretical doctrines that are being spread widely these days.

If a person sees through the tithing scam, he is less susceptible to other false or heretical doctrines that are being spread widely these days.

MrBible:

[size=13pt]17.Genesis 13:2
And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.

The Bible tells us that Abraham was very rich in cattle, silver and in gold, but apart from the tithe on the spoils of war he did not pay any other tithe. This is an indication that tithe before the law was not as it is practiced in churches today, if it was then the Bible would have told us that Abram paid tithes on his cattle, silver and gold before he went to war and returned with the booty of war he pay tithe on. Let no pastor deceive you that you are robbing God by not paying tithes of your income to them, these pastors are the ones robbing you. Be free in Christ, God loves a cheerful giver.[/size]

And how did you know Abraham did not ?

Enigma:

Another important point: some of us will ALWAYS continue to fight the tithing fraud as necessary.

The reason? It is at the fulcrum of an important spiritual battle!

If a person is taken in by the tithing scam, he is more susceptible to other false or heretical doctrines that are being spread widely these days.

If a person sees through the tithing scam, he is less susceptible to other false or heretical doctrines that are being spread widely these days.

i think you need to chill and watch a movie or something.

you're obviously very tense.

get yourself a cold drink while you're at it.

or some hot tea if you live in a cold climate.

you sound like you're caught up in swallows and amazons.

MrBible:

[size=13pt]17.Genesis 13:2
And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.

The Bible tells us that Abraham was very rich in cattle, silver and in gold, but apart from the tithe on the spoils of war he did not pay any other tithe. This is an indication that tithe before the law was not as it is practiced in churches today, if it was then the Bible would have told us that Abram paid tithes on his cattle, silver and gold before he went to war and returned with the booty of war he pay tithe on. Let no pastor deceive you that you are robbing God by not paying tithes of your income to them, these pastors are the ones robbing you. Be free in Christ, God loves a cheerful giver.[/size]  

This is like asking: Why are Christians not taking their offerings to altars in Jerusalem exactly as it is done in the Levitical system? Afterall, Paul used the Law of Moses to justify Christian giving to support ministers, did he not?

1 Corinthians 9:13-14
Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

If you want to read the Old Testament in a legalistic manner, then it won't be difficult to ask questions in the same manner.

tpia@:


i think you need to chill and watch a movie or something.

you're obviously very tense.

get yourself a cold drink while you're at it.

or some hot tea if you live in a cold climate.

you sound like you're caught up in swallows and amazons.

What is the matter with this one?

wordtalk:

This is like asking: Why are Christians not taking their offerings to altars in Jerusalem exactly as it is done in the Levitical system? Afterall, Paul used the Law of Moses to justify Christian giving to support ministers, did he not?

1 Corinthians 9:13-14
Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

[size=13pt]But Jesus did not say that on this "Rock I will build My Temple" . The church is not a temple, so your example is not relevant to this topic. The true believers of Jesus are the Church He was referring to.
Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.[/size]

MrBible:

[size=13pt]17.Genesis 13:2
And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.

The Bible tells us that Abraham was very rich in cattle, silver and in gold, but apart from the tithe on the spoils of war he did not pay any other tithe. This is an indication that tithe before the law was not as it is practiced in churches today, if it was then the Bible would have told us that Abram paid tithes on his cattle, silver and gold

Joagbaje:

And how did you know Abraham did not ?

Abraham did not tithe his cattle, silver and Gold cos there were no priest/pastor to receive the tithe no temple/church to deliver the tithe and we are not told he gave it to Angels

MrBible:

[size=13pt]But Jesus did not say that on this "Rock I will build My Temple" . The church is not a temple, so your example is not relevant to this topic. The true believers of Jesus are the Church He was referring to.
Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.[/size]

Please stay on course. I don't see the relevance of your argument in that - because it is like seomeone trying to argue that Jesus never taught about 'GRACE' just because in all His preaching He never once mentioned the word "grace". If your argumentis shifting to whether we are the Temple of God, there's enough in the NT to confirm that the Church is the Temple of God (I Cor. 3:16; 6:19; II Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21) - so the idea that just because Jesus did not say that He would build His 'Temple' does not therefore deny the fact that the Church is His Temple.

wordtalk:

Please stay on course. I don't see the relevance of your argument in that - because it is like seomeone trying to argue that Jesus never taught about 'GRACE' just because in all His preaching He never once mentioned the word "grace". If your argumentis shifting to whether we are the Temple of God, there's enough in the NT to confirm that the Church is the Temple of God (I Cor. 3:16; 6:19; II Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21) - so the idea that just because Jesus did not say that He would build His 'Temple' does not therefore deny the fact that the Church is His Temple.

[size=13pt]I think it is better you write your own bible Since you have your own explanation for everything the Bible says. Have you asked yourself why chucrh was never mentioned in the Old Testament[/size]

Edited:

MrBible:

[size=13pt]I think it is better you write your own bible Since you have your own explanation for everything the Bible says. Have you asked yourself why chucrh was never mentioned in the Old Testament[/size]

Have you been reading another book? Is it not the same Bible that I have been showing you what you read in my posts? You may not find the word "church" in the Old Testament - but in Acts 7:38, was Stephen not referring to the people of God in the OLD TESTAMENT when he spoke of Moses among them? Hear Stephen: "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness. . . ". The church in the wilderness was referring to people in the Old Testament.

Living the Christian life is not about trying to find certain words which occur or did not occur in the Old Testament or New Testament. It is when people become so occupied with that kind of exercise that questions begin to emerge like the ones you ask!

in the bible, wasnt judas the one who was always shouting about offering?

wordtalk:

Edited:

Have you been reading another book? Is it not the same Bible that I have been showing you what you read in my posts? You may not find the word "church" in the Old Testament - but in Acts 7:38, was Stephen not referring to the people of God in the OLD TESTAMENT when he spoke of Moses among them? Hear Stephen: "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness. . . ". The church in the wilderness was referring to people in the Old Testament.

Mr bible what sayest thou ? Or do we change your name to Mr paper?

^^^ So was that "church" or were the people in that "church" born again or not?

tpia@:

in the bible, wasnt judas the one who was always shouting about offering?

Lol, I wonder! And he was the one who was also loudest to tell others how money should be spent "for the poor" - whereas the guy had no heart whatsoever for "the poor" (John 12:5-6).

wordtalk:

Edited:
You may not find the word "church" in the Old Testament - but in Acts 7:38, was Stephen not referring to the people of God in the OLD TESTAMENT when he spoke of Moses among them? Hear Stephen: "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness. . . ". The church in the wilderness was referring to people in the Old Testament.

[size=13pt]Church is not a temple, church in other Bible translations is a congregation or assembly of believers, while temple is a place of worship. So by saying that those who work in the temple eat from the temple has no relevance to a church.[/size]

MrBible:

[size=13pt]Church is not a temple, church in other Bible translations is a congregation or assembly while temple is a place of worship. [/size]

1 Corinthians 3:16 from a few English translations/versions

ESV ^^ "Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? "

CEV ^^ "All of you surely know that you are God's temple and that his Spirit lives in you."

EMTV ^^ "Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"

ERV ^^ "You should know that you yourselves are God's temple. God's Spirit lives in you."

GNB ^^ "Surely you know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you!"

GW ^^ "Don't you know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?"

KJV ^^ "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

NIV ^^ "Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?"

NLT ^^ "Don’t you realize that all of you together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in you?"

ASV ^^ "Know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

AMPLIFIED -
"Do you not discern and understand that you [the whole church at Corinth] are God's temple (His sanctuary), and that God's Spirit has His permanent dwelling in you [to be at home in you, collectively as a church and also individually]?"


Dear MrBible, these are a few that make the matter clear. The Church is God's Temple - yet, Christians have places of worship where they gather together for worship. This is not even an issue at all as it is one of the elementary things that believers should know.

tpia@:

in the bible, wasnt judas the one who was always shouting about offering?

[size=13pt]Wasnt judas also in charge of the money bag just as you pastors are in charge of your temple's money bag today [/size]

wordtalk:

Lol, I wonder! And he was the one who was also loudest to tell others how money should be spent "for the poor" - whereas the guy had no heart whatsoever for "the poor" (John 12:5-6).

[size=13pt]Wasnt judas also in charge of the money bag just as you pastors are in charge of your temple's money bag today [/size]

^^my post said shouting about.

i hope you get the difference.

shouting about offering isnt the same thing as being in charge of offering, dear.

besides, there are committees handling these things, as i've endlessly pointed out before.

the main thing here is the grumbling.

if you feel your pastor is misappropriating your money, then you're free to take whatever action you deem fit with[b] your [/b] money.

however, this blanket approach of just lambasting anyhow, doesnt seem necessary, imo.

wordtalk:

1 Corinthians 3:16 from a few English translations/versions

AMPLIFIED -
"Do you not discern and understand that you [the whole church at Corinth] are God's temple (His sanctuary), and that God's Spirit has His permanent dwelling in you [to be at home in you, collectively as a church and also individually]?"

Dear MrBible, these are a few that make the matter clear. The Church is God's Temple - yet, Christians have places of worship where they gather together for worship. This is not even an issue at all as it is one of the elementary things that believers should know.

[size=13pt]When Paul said those who work in the temple eat from the temple, which you quoted before, he was referring to the physical temple and not the spiritual temple which true believers are today.[/size]

tpia@:

^^my post said shouting about.
i hope you get the difference.
shouting about offering isnt the same thing as being in charge of offering, dear.
besides, there are committees in charge of these things, as i've endlessly pointed out before.

[size=13pt]Who is in charge of these committees in churches that collect tithes is it not the pastor . Aslo who is always shouting if you don't pay your tithes that you are robbing  God Do these pastor care about the needs of those that cannot pay tithes and even the ones that do[/size]

^^who is supposed to be in charge of any committee in the church?

i dont think you get my point because we seem to be arguing in circles.

as per your complaint- case by case basis, if you dont mind.

you made a blanket statement which cant be verified.

[size=13pt]The main reason for collecting tithes is mind control and financial gain, which pastors are very happy about. Ones you can control people into handing over 10% of their income to you other controls will follow.[/size]

the ones arguing over what others should do with their money, are also trying to control them.

the fact of the matter remains even if you decide to not pay tithe [or whatever] because some people are arguing against it, God can raise someone to replace you [might not even be a christian] if that's his will.

tpia@:

the ones arguing over what others should do with their money, are also trying to control them.

the fact of the matter remains even if you decide to not pay tithe [or whatever] because some people are arguing against it, God [s]can raise someone to replace you to set people free [might not even be a christian] if [/s] has raised me to set people free because that's his will.

[size=13pt]The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, for he has anointed me to bring Good News to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim that captives will be released, that the blind will see and that those in bondage will be set free from the tithe collectors we have today. [/size]

cool.

What I have noticed reading through some of these threads is that there is a tendency for posts to go off topic and the original point that started the thread gets losts in the point scoring exercise that follow.

To the original poster, before the Law of Moses there was no commandment given by God for anyone to pay a tithe to anybody. If there was such a commandment someone must have deleted it from the original Bible. In the absence of such a commandment Abraham gave a voluntary tithe (tenth) of the spoils he recovered in the war to rescue Lot etc. As far as we know, Abraham left his possessions in another land and it was on his way back from the war he met Melchizedek (the king priest of Salem) and gave him a tenth of the spoils. There is nothing in scripture which tells us Abraham regularly gave a tenth of his income/increase to Melchizedek or anyone else. This therefore should not be used by the church to force the church to give a tenth of their weekly or monthly income to the church. Church members should give what they purpose in their own hearts "voluntarily", not out of compulsion or out of necessity.

[size=13pt]<sup>The reason Abraham gave a tenth was because of God's deliverance from his enemies. We would call this tenth, "a thank offering" according to the bible . Tithing was never a part of the Abrahamic covenant.

Abraham did not give tithe to Melchizedek from his personal possessions but from the spoils of war after rescuing Lot. Therefore we can see that Abraham was not following an unwritten tithe law when he gave tithe to the King of Salem. And besides, the Levitical tithe law did not include "spoils of war." Tithing was not a part of Abrahamic covenant. See, Gen 17.

Christian Church leaders often hold up the examples of Abraham and Jacob to get their members to tithe. If we look at the record, we will see that there was not a tithe law commanded by God till Sinai. Why then did Abraham and Jacob give a tenth?</sup> [/size]

Is this ogaga?
Has someone stolen ur ID?