I saw a mad man lying dead on the road, what came to my mind was, where could he be now (heaven or hell).

Islam shows Mercy by this saying;

the pen is lifted for three;

1] a child until he/she reaches puberty.

2] a person who is unconscious until he/she regains consciousness.

3] a mad person until he/she is mentally sound.

Good question. I think something similar to what Sweetnecta is used in Christianity.
.

^^^^^ that eliminates original sin.

Sweetnecta:

Islam shows Mercy by this saying;

the pen is lifted for three;

1] a child until he/she reaches puberty.

2] a person who is unconscious until he/she regains consciousness.

3] a mad person until he/she is mentally sound.

Interesting. Are there any verses that these are based on? or is it more of a general accepted teaching without supporting verses? Thanks.

whats bad though, is that the society will not attend to this lifeless body, and accords it some human dignity.

he needs to be buried instead of allowing him to be there decaying and thereby suffering and offending the sight of the community.

@JeSoul; the first about young until puberty is in Nisaa where Allah talks about maturing to become a spouse, because that is when responsibility begins. That responsibility includes making daily Salah, fasting in ramadhan, etc.

all of them are expressed in the ahadith.

for sure ahadith expalins a verse or verses of the Quran

JeSoul:

Interesting. Are there any verses that these are based on? or is it more of a general accepted teaching without supporting verses? Thanks.

"There is not upon the blind any guilt or upon the lame any guilt or upon the ill any guilt [for lacking behind]. And whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger - He will admit him to gardens beneath which rivers flow; but whoever turns away - He will punish him with a painful punishment".(Holy Quran 48:17)

the above is further explained in hadiths,as "Sweetnecta" rightly pointed three groups of people that are totally not held accountable for their deeds.

however,regarding the madman,his deeds that he committed before he went mad,he may be held accountable for them depending on his peculiar situation which God will judge.but for certain the deeds of the mad,the child and the unconscious when they are in those particular states are not accounted for.

Sweetnecta:

@JeSoul; the first about young until puberty is in Nisaa where Allah talks about maturing to become a spouse, because that is when responsibility begins. That responsibility includes making daily Salah, fasting in ramadhan, etc.

all of them are expressed in the ahadith.

for sure ahadith expalins a verse or verses of the Quran

Thanks for the answer. So the responsibility begins at puberty? what about rare cases where children (7, 8, 9 yrs old) commit crimes or do things that are terribly bad? what would you say is Islams approach to dealing with such cases?

LagosShia:

"There is not upon the blind any guilt or upon the lame any guilt or upon the ill any guilt [for lacking behind]. And whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger - He will admit him to gardens beneath which rivers flow; but whoever turns away - He will punish him with a painful punishment".(Holy Quran 48:17)

the above is further explained in hadiths,as "Sweetnecta" rightly pointed three groups of people that are totally not held accountable for their deeds.

however,regarding the madman,his deeds that he committed before he went mad,he may be held accountable for them depending on his peculiar situation which God will judge.but for certain the deeds of the mad,the child and the unconscious when they are in those particular states are not accounted for.

Thanks also and see my question to Sweetnecta  . . .

JeSoul:

Thanks for the answer. So the responsibility begins at puberty? what about rare cases where children (7, 8, 9 yrs old) commit crimes or do things that are terribly bad? what would you say is Islams approach to dealing with such cases?

i dont think it is wise to generalize on such rare cases.i may give you for example the case of child soldeirs in sierra leone and the congo and may be other countries too.those children were forced to commit horrible crimes.therefore the blame and guilt lie on those responsible for making those children commit those crimes.

i think it is best to take them case by case.

even outside islam in a place like america,children below 18 are not tried in the same courts as adults.there are special courts.Islam have made it easier by putting the age at puberty when a child is exposed to the use of his Cores or starts having wet dreams and the likes.

also,it all depends on how God will judge each and every human be him a child or adult as at death.islamically in our practical world under our own reach and control,when we talk about the age of puberty when a child become a "baligh",before that children are not obliged to pray 5 times a day or fast.if they do not observe the duties of religion,it is not sin.there are verses in the Quran about children and puberty as "Sweetnecta" also pointed out.

Thanks also and see my question to Sweetnecta  . . .

you're welcome.i saw it.

Sweetnecta « #1 on: Today at 02:40:00 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Islam shows Mercy by this saying;

the pen is lifted for three;

1] a child until he/she reaches puberty.

2] a person who is unconscious until he/she regains consciousness.

3] a mad person until he/she is mentally sound.

Gbam, This is exactly the well known position of Islam, no more no less. This is why muslims disagree with the concept of original sin. 


Jesoul
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting. Are there any verses that these are based on? or is it more of a general accepted teaching without supporting verses? Thanks.

The Pen is Lifted From Three
The Messenger of Allah (صلي الله عليه وسلم) said: “The Pen is lifted from three (i.e., their deeds are not recorded):

a child until he reaches puberty;
an insane man until he comes to his senses;
one who is asleep until he wakes up.”
[Recorded in Abu Dawud #4403, and Ibn Majah #2041]

LagosShia:

i dont think it is wise to generalize on such rare cases.i may give you for example the case of child soldeirs in sierra leone and the congo and may be other countries too.those children were forced to commit horrible crimes.therefore the blame and guilt lie on those responsible for making those children commit those crimes.

i think it is best to take them case by case.

even outside islam in a place like america,children below 18 are not tried in the same courts as adults.there are special courts.Islam have made it easier by putting the age at puberty when a child is exposed to the use of his Cores or starts having wet dreams and the likes.

also,it all depends on how God will judge each and every human be him a child or adult as at death.islamically in our practical world under our own reach and control,when we talk about the age of puberty when a child become a "baligh",before that children are not obliged to pray 5 times a day or fast.if they do not observe the duties of religion,it is not sin.there are verses in the Quran about children and puberty as "Sweetnecta" also pointed out.

 I totally agree that it all matters on a case by case basis. I am not sure however that in instances of child soldiers, 100% of the blame falls on the adults who placed the guns in their hands. There are stories where some children were killed for refusing to kill others, they knew it was wrong and hence refused to do it and were killed for it . . . what do you say about that? Also we know children do have a sense of wrong and right . . . even though it is a basic and under-developed one, they still have it. Which is why a child will hide or run when be breaks a plate or breaks the neighbors window - he/she knows they did something wrong.

And excellent point about the justice system trying children under a different level - that is true and well noted. There have also been many cases where the prosecutor has petitioned the court to try teenagers as adults - due to the severity of the crime. Because there are some crimes you look at and see that though a 'child' (according to the societal definition) committed it, and you can no longer just call them a 'child'. A true child should not be able to commit such a crime.

you're welcome.i saw it.

thanks.

---

omo alaro:

Sweetnecta « #1 on: Today at 02:40:00 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gbam, This is exactly the well known position of Islam, no more no less. This is why muslims disagree with the concept of original sin. 


Jesoul
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Pen is Lifted From Three
The Messenger of Allah (صلي الله عليه وسلم) said: “The Pen is lifted from three (i.e., their deeds are not recorded):

a child until he reaches puberty;
an insane man until he comes to his senses;
one who is asleep until he wakes up.”
[Recorded in Abu Dawud #4403, and Ibn Majah #2041]

I guess this is at the heart of my query . . . what is Islam's position or should I say counter-argument to the concept of 'original sin'?

JeSoul:

 

---

I guess this is at the heart of my query . . . what is Islam's position or should I say counter-argument to the concept of 'original sin'?

please review the below thread as we muslims do not believe in anything called "original sin" or anything that attribute us humans a sinful nature or guilt at birth based on what we did not commit:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-551599.0.html

LagosShia:

please review the below thread as we muslims do not believe in anything called "original sin" or anything that attribute us humans a sinful nature or guilt at birth based on what we did not commit:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-551599.0.html

Thanks for the link. I just looked at it & it answers my question.

If you have the time please address my last post. Gracias.

Have to prepare again my thoughts on this one!

JeSoul (f)« #11 on: Today at 03:36:35 PM »

I guess this is at the heart of my query . . . what is Islam's position or should I say counter-argument to the concept of 'original sin'?

“…No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another…” (Quran 6:164)

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” (Deuteronomy 24:16)

None can reject that in these two verses, the first from the Quran and the second from the Bible, is an allusion to the same meaning: that the Just God will never punish people for the sins of others.
Christianity alleges that God created humans to live eternally in Heaven, and that when Adam ate from the tree from which he had been forbidden, God punished him through death and banishment from Heaven. They further assert that as death was inherited by his progeny, so too was the sin of their father, which was a permanent stain on the hearts of humanity, never to be removed except through a sacrifice so great that it would oblige God to forgive humanity. This sacrifice would be nothing other than the sacrifice of God himself, incarnate in His “son” Jesus. Therefore Christianity deems all of humanity as damned to Hell for the sin of Adam from which they could never be cleansed, except through the belief that God became incarnate and died for Adam’s sin, ritualized as Baptism, through which Christians are ‘born again’ into the world, but this time free of sin. So we see that the theory of ‘Original Sin’ forms the basis of various Christian beliefs, from the crucifixion of Jesus to the concept of salvation and savior from Hell. It forms the very basis for the mission of Jesus himself.
So the questions arise, is humanity guilty for the sin which Adam committed by eating from the tree he was forbidden? Must we all repent from that great sin? In what way is one to repent? And if so, what is the fate of those who did not?
Islam strictly promotes the notion that the punishment of sins will only be faced by those who commit them. Sin is not a hereditary trait or ‘stain’ passed to one’s progeny one generation to another. All people will be accountable to what only they themselves did in this life. Therefore, even though the Quran mentions the sin of Adam and how he was banished from the Garden, it places no responsibility on the shoulders of his progeny. None of the Prophets before Jesus were known to have preached this concept, nor were any other beliefs or rituals based upon this belief. Rather, salvation from Hell and attainment of Paradise was achieved through the belief in One God and obedience to His commandments, a message preached by all prophets, including Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, as well.
The Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful
As for the sin of Adam, the Quran tells us that he repented for his sin. God revealed to him words with which to repent, which he then accepted from him.
“Then Adam received Words (of forgiveness) from his Lord, and he accepted his repentance. Verily, He is the One Who repeatedly accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.” (Quran 2:37)
Through God’s acceptance of Adam’s repentance, Adam was cleansed of the sin which he committed. God in the Quran repeatedly ascribes to Himself attribute of mercy and forgiveness. He also mentions that from His Names are The Oft-Forgiving, The Most Merciful, the Accepter of Repentance, and others, all of which emphasize the All-Encompassing Mercy of God. Even to those who have sinned much and may lose hope in the forgiveness of God, He says:
“Say: ‘O My slaves who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of God, indeed God forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.’” (Quran 39:53)
If a person sins, all they need to do is truly repent from their heart, and they will find God Ever Merciful. Adam did sin, and the sin did stain his heart, but it was removed through his repentance. The Prophet Muhammad said:
“Indeed if a believer sins, a black spot covers his heart. If he repents, and stops from his sin, and seeks forgiveness for it, his heart becomes clean again. If he persists (instead of repenting), it increases until covers his heart…” (Ibn Maajah)
Even if we were to say that Adam did not repent, that stain is not passed on to further generations. Therefore, we see that God does not need any physical sacrifice in order to forgive sins, and that no sin is too great for His Mercy; to say so would be to ascribe deficiency to His Excellence and Perfection. The Prophet Muhammad relates to us that God said:
“O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.” (Al-Tirmidhi)
God says in the Quran in regards to sacrifice, that it is the intention of the person when offering the sacrifice which is of importance, and not the actual sacrifice itself.
“It is neither their meat nor their blood that reaches God, but it is piety from you that reaches Him, ” (Quran 22:37)
If we were to implement this verse in regards to the original sin and God incarnate sacrificing himself in order to forgive all of humanity, we see that even without seeking repentance for Adam’s sin, God forgave human beings due to His Own Sacrifice. Could He not have forgiven them without such a sacrifice?
It is also mentioned in the bible:
[b]“To what purpose (is) the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? Saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; (it is) iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear (them). And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.”[/b]


The Divine Will of the Perfect God

So Adam sought forgiveness for His sin, and God accepted it from Him. Another crucial point which must be mentioned is that God created humans with a free will, and He knew that humanity would sin. For this reason, no human is expected to be perfect, but rather, God knows that they will sin. What is expected from humans is that they repent from their sin. The Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, said:
“All children of Adam repetitively make mistakes, but the best of those who make mistakes are those who repent.” (Ibn Maajah)
The Prophet also said:
“By Him in Whose Hand is My soul (i.e. God), if you did not commit sins, God would do away with you and come with a race which committed sins. They would seek forgiveness from God and He would forgive them. (Saheeh Muslim #4936)
So here we see that it was in the Great and Wise plan of God that Adam sin and that God forgive him for that sin, and to say that Adam went against the Universal Will of God by sinning is a blasphemy against the All Encompassing Knowledge, Power, and Will of God. Christianity goes so far as to say that God even repented from the creation of humans! May God be free from all defects people attribute to Him. In Genesis 6:6, it says to quote:
“And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart”
To agree to this would mean that Adam did something which was out of the Will, Power, and Knowledge of God, and that God regretted His creation of humans. God is All-Perfect and so are His deeds, and there is no defect or shortcoming in them; He does nothing except with total and complete perfection and wisdom. Islam in no way agrees to this belief and, as we mentioned, all of what occurred in the story of Adam was within the perfect plan of God. The Prophet said:
“Indeed God put everything into its proper measure fifty thousand years before the creation of the heavens and the earths.” (Al-Tirmidhi)
God mentions in the Quran what took place between the angels when He announced the creation of humans, and from this we see that it was known to God and part of His Great and Divine Plan that humans would sin. God says:
“And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: ‘Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth.’ They said: ‘Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks and sanctify You.’ He (God) said: ‘Indeed I know that which you do not know.’” (Quran 2:30)
It is also clear from these verses that God did not create humans as immortal, and that death was prescribed for them from the beginning of their creation. As for the consequences of the sin of Adam, which was his extradition from the Garden, this was felt by those to come after him and this is only natural. If one was to become drunk and have a car accident, and some of the passengers die, the sin of driver effects the passengers in their death, but that does not mean that the passengers are to be held to account for the sin of the driver.
The Innocent
Another question which must be dealt with is the fate of those who came before the claim that God became incarnate and sacrificed himself for the sins of humanity, as well as the fate of those who were not baptized, as baptism is the rite which all Christians must perform in order to be cleansed of Original Sin. In Christian belief, all humans previous to the incarnation of God, including the Prophets and infants usually regarded as sinless, are not free from the Original Sin of Adam, and therefore cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, As Augustine said: “Do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin.” Only until recently, non-baptized infants were not buried in consecrated ground because they were believed to have died in original sin.
Also, we know that the verse in the Apostles’ Creed, “… and (Jesus) descended into Hell”, is said to mean that Jesus descended to Hell to free the righteous souls who were there due to the sin of Adam. This leads us to believe that all those before the coming of Jesus are in Hell, even if they were from the righteous. Paul mentioned this himself in Galatians:
“… a man is not justified by the works of the law , for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16)
Here it is clear that adherence to the commandments of God is not enough for salvation, even for those before Jesus. This also holds true to all those who have not received the message of Christianity. We must ask; why did not the Prophets before Jesus call to this notion of original sin? Did they lie when they said that it was enough to Worship One God and obey His commandments to achieve Paradise? Why did not God come and free humanity from sin at the time of Adam so that the righteous and others would not be in Hell due to his sin? Why are infants, humanity before Jesus, and others who have not heard about Christianity, held accountable for a sin they never committed, nor have knowledge about how to remit themselves from it? The truth of the matter is that the notion of “Original Sin”, as many others, was one introduced by Paul and later expounded on by Christian scholars and councils.
“The Old Testament says nothing about the transmission of hereditary sin to the entire human race… the main scriptural affirmation of the doctrine is found in the writings of St. Paul…”
This concept though, was expounded by Augustine of Hippo, one of the most prominent Christian scholars in History. The basis of this concept is that “the deliberate sin of the first man (Adam) is the cause of original sin.” The Second Council of Orange (529 C.E.) declared, “One man has transmitted to the whole human race not only the death of the body, which is the punishment of sin, but even sin itself, which is the death of the soul.”
The concept of original sin is one which has no basis in previous scriptures regarded as divine by Christianity. None of the Prophets before Jesus were known to have preached this concept, nor were any other beliefs or rituals based upon them. Rather, salvation from Hell was achieved through the belief in One God and obedience to His commandments which was preached by all prophets, including the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, may God praise them.

Summary
In Islam, the key to salvation is the belief in and worship of the One True, Unique and Perfect God and obedience to His commandments, the same message brought by all Prophets. Islam preaches that a person must work righteousness and avoid sin to attain Paradise, and that if one sins, that they seek repentance for it from their heart. Through this and the Mercy and Grace of God, they will enter Paradise. Islam does not deem that all those before the advent of Muhammad are doomed to Hell, but rather that each nation was sent a prophet by the same One God, and it was upon them to follow His commandments. Those who have not heard of the message are not held liable to follow Islam, and God will deal with them with His Perfect Justice on the Day of Judgment. Infants and children of both Muslims and disbelievers alike are in enjoyment in Paradise upon death. Due to the infinite Justice of God:
“No one laden with burdens can bear another’s burden. And We never punish (people) until We have sent (to them) a Messenger (to give warning).” (Quran 17:15)

@JeSoul
i think you are refering to the below quoted as your "last post" you want me to treat.i actually did not bother to reply anything on that part because based on what i said and also what you've said,i can simply say "Allah knows best" and you will agree with me.these are things we cannot judge because we do not have the right to do that.however this situation about children being involved in crime should not be misunderstood with "original sin".they are different situations and cases.there is no justification in Islam to believe that a child that is born today has a sinful nature or is guilty of sin because of the sin Adam committed,which he had no knowledge of.a child is not even guilty of his own biological father's sin,talkess of accusing him of Adam's sin.

so even if i am to agree with you for instance that children can be guilty of sin which they commit,and as you agreed with me the cases must be examined one by one and the final judgement is with God,it still does not cover "original sin"."original sin" is totally different.they are different because "original sin" holds man responsible from birth for a sin he did not commit which is injustice.

in islam,children are said to be innocent because they do not have the ability to properly reason or draw judgement before acting.this is also one of the reasons present in the SHIA Islamic school of thought for totally absolving Adam of sin and still maintaining his infallibility (this is explained more in the thread on "original sin" i earlier presented to you).Adam when he ate from the tree was not exposed to certain environmental conditions and situations.so his innocence is still maintained (as his intention was not on the purpose to revolt against God) and God actually did not punish him but rather blessed him with offsprings and used that incident to teach him right from wrong and who his main enemy is (i will present some very enlightening youtube lectures on Adam and his infallibility from the SHIA Islamic view in my next post).on this note,i must say there are times an adult may do something wrong that he could be punished for it because his action is deemed sinful and punishment come after sin,but if a child does the same thing,he would not be punished because he is deemed not to have committed an act of sin but a mistake out of ignorance or misjudgement due to lack of knowledge,without purpose to be or do evil/sin which therefore does not call for punishment!!!

assuming a child does commit an act which he was able to properly reason and make judgement of its sinfulness,then judgement rest with God and also it depends on the evidence available in the court of law.ofcourse,such a situation is very rare and should not be used to make general conclusions.caution should be taken.

JeSoul:

 I totally agree that it all matters on a case by case basis. I am not sure however that in instances of child soldiers, 100% of the blame falls on the adults who placed the guns in their hands. There are stories where some children were killed for refusing to kill others, they knew it was wrong and hence refused to do it and were killed for it . . . what do you say about that? Also we know children do have a sense of wrong and right . . . even though it is a basic and under-developed one, they still have it. Which is why a child will hide or run when be breaks a plate or breaks the neighbors window - he/she knows they did something wrong.

And excellent point about the justice system trying children under a different level - that is true and well noted. There have also been many cases where the prosecutor has petitioned the court to try teenagers as adults - due to the severity of the crime. Because there are some crimes you look at and see that though a 'child' (according to the societal definition) committed it, and you can no longer just call them a 'child'. A true child should not be able to commit such a crime.
thanks.

mummy3:

I saw a mad man lying dead on the road, what came to my mind was, where could he be now (heaven or hell).

He didn't have a law to have sin against. But if he was not born insane. He will be judged by the level of truth he was exposed to before he became mad.

(ALL LECTURES BELOW ARE IN ENGLISH BY Shia Muslim SCHOLARS)

Infallibility of Prophets & Imams - Professor Hassanain Rajabali

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXuuNBIl31E


Was Prophet Adam Infallible - Part 1/2 - Professor Hassanain Rajabali

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAUj2hwEa_I&feature=related


Was Prophet Adam Infallible - Part 2/2 - Professor Hassanain Rajabali

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0bYB6pb_2s&feature=related


Rational & Quranic Proofs of Infallibility of the Prophets - Dr. Sayyed Khalil Tabatabai

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehY6W0ws63A


Infallibility of Prophet Adam (A.S.) - Dr. Sayyed Khalil Tabatabai

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Koo1ZgZGI7k


Infallibility of Prophet Noah (A.S.) - Dr. Sayyed Khalil Tabatabai

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKDsF4irJrE


The Infallibility of Sayyeda Fatimah Al-Zahra (A.S.) - Dr. Sayyed Khalil Tabatabai

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCiteNXxEUI


Did Prophet Adam Commit a Sin?(Refuting the "Original Sin" - Sheikh Safdar Razi (part 1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_X6wfswGQ8&feature=related

Part 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUJnnWuSFpU&feature=related



Refuting the "Original Sin" & "Crucifixion"-Professor Hassanain Rajabali

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqAy0805dFQ

@omo alaro
Great post. Thank you. A few qualms here and there, but on the whole, great post.

omo alaro:

JeSoul (f)« #11 on: Today at 03:36:35 PM »


“…No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another…” (Quran 6:164)

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” (Deuteronomy 24:16)

None can reject that in these two verses, the first from the Quran and the second from the Bible, is an allusion to the same meaning: that the Just God will never punish people for the sins of others.
Christianity alleges that God created humans to live eternally in Heaven, and that when Adam ate from the tree from which he had been forbidden, God punished him through death and banishment from Heaven. They further assert that as death was inherited by his progeny, so too was the sin of their father, which was a permanent stain on the hearts of humanity, never to be removed except through a sacrifice so great that it would oblige God to forgive humanity. This sacrifice would be nothing other than the sacrifice of God himself, incarnate in His “son” Jesus. Therefore Christianity deems all of humanity as damned to Hell for the sin of Adam from which they could never be cleansed, except through the belief that God became incarnate and died for Adam’s sin, ritualized as Baptism, through which Christians are ‘born again’ into the world, but this time free of sin. So we see that the theory of ‘Original Sin’ forms the basis of various Christian beliefs, from the crucifixion of Jesus to the concept of salvation and savior from Hell. It forms the very basis for the mission of Jesus himself.
So the questions arise, is humanity guilty for the sin which Adam committed by eating from the tree he was forbidden? Must we all repent from that great sin? In what way is one to repent? And if so, what is the fate of those who did not?
Islam strictly promotes the notion that the punishment of sins will only be faced by those who commit them. Sin is not a hereditary trait or ‘stain’ passed to one’s progeny one generation to another. All people will be accountable to what only they themselves did in this life. Therefore, even though the Quran mentions the sin of Adam and how he was banished from the Garden, it places no responsibility on the shoulders of his progeny. None of the Prophets before Jesus were known to have preached this concept, nor were any other beliefs or rituals based upon this belief. Rather, salvation from Hell and attainment of Paradise was achieved through the belief in One God and obedience to His commandments, a message preached by all prophets, including Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, as well.
The Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful
As for the sin of Adam, the Quran tells us that he repented for his sin. God revealed to him words with which to repent, which he then accepted from him.
“Then Adam received Words (of forgiveness) from his Lord, and he accepted his repentance. Verily, He is the One Who repeatedly accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.” (Quran 2:37)
Through God’s acceptance of Adam’s repentance, Adam was cleansed of the sin which he committed. God in the Quran repeatedly ascribes to Himself attribute of mercy and forgiveness. He also mentions that from His Names are The Oft-Forgiving, The Most Merciful, the Accepter of Repentance, and others, all of which emphasize the All-Encompassing Mercy of God. Even to those who have sinned much and may lose hope in the forgiveness of God, He says:
“Say: ‘O My slaves who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of God, indeed God forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.’” (Quran 39:53)
If a person sins, all they need to do is truly repent from their heart, and they will find God Ever Merciful. Adam did sin, and the sin did stain his heart, but it was removed through his repentance. The Prophet Muhammad said:
“Indeed if a believer sins, a black spot covers his heart. If he repents, and stops from his sin, and seeks forgiveness for it, his heart becomes clean again. If he persists (instead of repenting), it increases until covers his heart…” (Ibn Maajah)
Even if we were to say that Adam did not repent, that stain is not passed on to further generations. Therefore, we see that God does not need any physical sacrifice in order to forgive sins, and that no sin is too great for His Mercy; to say so would be to ascribe deficiency to His Excellence and Perfection. The Prophet Muhammad relates to us that God said:
“O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.” (Al-Tirmidhi)
God says in the Quran in regards to sacrifice, that it is the intention of the person when offering the sacrifice which is of importance, and not the actual sacrifice itself.
“It is neither their meat nor their blood that reaches God, but it is piety from you that reaches Him, ” (Quran 22:37)
If we were to implement this verse in regards to the original sin and God incarnate sacrificing himself in order to forgive all of humanity, we see that even without seeking repentance for Adam’s sin, God forgave human beings due to His Own Sacrifice. Could He not have forgiven them without such a sacrifice?
It is also mentioned in the bible:
[b]“To what purpose (is) the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? Saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; (it is) iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear (them). And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.”[/b]


The Divine Will of the Perfect God

So Adam sought forgiveness for His sin, and God accepted it from Him. Another crucial point which must be mentioned is that God created humans with a free will, and He knew that humanity would sin. For this reason, no human is expected to be perfect, but rather, God knows that they will sin. What is expected from humans is that they repent from their sin. The Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, said:
“All children of Adam repetitively make mistakes, but the best of those who make mistakes are those who repent.” (Ibn Maajah)
The Prophet also said:
“By Him in Whose Hand is My soul (i.e. God), if you did not commit sins, God would do away with you and come with a race which committed sins. They would seek forgiveness from God and He would forgive them. (Saheeh Muslim #4936)
So here we see that it was in the Great and Wise plan of God that Adam sin and that God forgive him for that sin, and to say that Adam went against the Universal Will of God by sinning is a blasphemy against the All Encompassing Knowledge, Power, and Will of God. Christianity goes so far as to say that God even repented from the creation of humans! May God be free from all defects people attribute to Him. In Genesis 6:6, it says to quote:
“And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart”
To agree to this would mean that Adam did something which was out of the Will, Power, and Knowledge of God, and that God regretted His creation of humans. God is All-Perfect and so are His deeds, and there is no defect or shortcoming in them; He does nothing except with total and complete perfection and wisdom. Islam in no way agrees to this belief and, as we mentioned, all of what occurred in the story of Adam was within the perfect plan of God. The Prophet said:
“Indeed God put everything into its proper measure fifty thousand years before the creation of the heavens and the earths.” (Al-Tirmidhi)
God mentions in the Quran what took place between the angels when He announced the creation of humans, and from this we see that it was known to God and part of His Great and Divine Plan that humans would sin. God says:
“And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: ‘Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth.’ They said: ‘Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks and sanctify You.’ He (God) said: ‘Indeed I know that which you do not know.’” (Quran 2:30)
It is also clear from these verses that God did not create humans as immortal, and that death was prescribed for them from the beginning of their creation. As for the consequences of the sin of Adam, which was his extradition from the Garden, this was felt by those to come after him and this is only natural. If one was to become drunk and have a car accident, and some of the passengers die, the sin of driver effects the passengers in their death, but that does not mean that the passengers are to be held to account for the sin of the driver.
The Innocent
Another question which must be dealt with is the fate of those who came before the claim that God became incarnate and sacrificed himself for the sins of humanity, as well as the fate of those who were not baptized, as baptism is the rite which all Christians must perform in order to be cleansed of Original Sin. In Christian belief, all humans previous to the incarnation of God, including the Prophets and infants usually regarded as sinless, are not free from the Original Sin of Adam, and therefore cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, As Augustine said: “Do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin.” Only until recently, non-baptized infants were not buried in consecrated ground because they were believed to have died in original sin.
Also, we know that the verse in the Apostles’ Creed, “… and (Jesus) descended into Hell”, is said to mean that Jesus descended to Hell to free the righteous souls who were there due to the sin of Adam. This leads us to believe that all those before the coming of Jesus are in Hell, even if they were from the righteous. Paul mentioned this himself in Galatians:
“… a man is not justified by the works of the law , for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16)
Here it is clear that adherence to the commandments of God is not enough for salvation, even for those before Jesus. This also holds true to all those who have not received the message of Christianity. We must ask; why did not the Prophets before Jesus call to this notion of original sin? Did they lie when they said that it was enough to Worship One God and obey His commandments to achieve Paradise? Why did not God come and free humanity from sin at the time of Adam so that the righteous and others would not be in Hell due to his sin? Why are infants, humanity before Jesus, and others who have not heard about Christianity, held accountable for a sin they never committed, nor have knowledge about how to remit themselves from it? The truth of the matter is that the notion of “Original Sin”, as many others, was one introduced by Paul and later expounded on by Christian scholars and councils.
“The Old Testament says nothing about the transmission of hereditary sin to the entire human race… the main scriptural affirmation of the doctrine is found in the writings of St. Paul…”
This concept though, was expounded by Augustine of Hippo, one of the most prominent Christian scholars in History. The basis of this concept is that “the deliberate sin of the first man (Adam) is the cause of original sin.” The Second Council of Orange (529 C.E.) declared, “One man has transmitted to the whole human race not only the death of the body, which is the punishment of sin, but even sin itself, which is the death of the soul.”
The concept of original sin is one which has no basis in previous scriptures regarded as divine by Christianity. None of the Prophets before Jesus were known to have preached this concept, nor were any other beliefs or rituals based upon them. Rather, salvation from Hell was achieved through the belief in One God and obedience to His commandments which was preached by all prophets, including the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, may God praise them.

Summary
In Islam, the key to salvation is the belief in and worship of the One True, Unique and Perfect God and obedience to His commandments, the same message brought by all Prophets. Islam preaches that a person must work righteousness and avoid sin to attain Paradise, and that if one sins, that they seek repentance for it from their heart. Through this and the Mercy and Grace of God, they will enter Paradise. Islam does not deem that all those before the advent of Muhammad are doomed to Hell, but rather that each nation was sent a prophet by the same One God, and it was upon them to follow His commandments. Those who have not heard of the message are not held liable to follow Islam, and God will deal with them with His Perfect Justice on the Day of Judgment. Infants and children of both Muslims and disbelievers alike are in enjoyment in Paradise upon death. Due to the infinite Justice of God:
“No one laden with burdens can bear another’s burden. And We never punish (people) until We have sent (to them) a Messenger (to give warning).” (Quran 17:15)

Chei! Omo alaro you try oh! lol. Thank you for the very detailed response. I'm short on time now to properly reply but I hope to do so soon. Just one quick observation.

I appreciate the way you laid out the persuations of Islam on the subject, I am learning some good stuff. I do however see some shortcomings with the position you attributed to the christian faith ie, 'original sin' being insinuated as a rogue Pauline doctrine, problems itself with what is associated with and the implications of 'original sin', a lack of acknowledgement of especially OT examples who were 'righteous' in the sight of God without etc etc. Maybe someone else will beat me to it & reply before I'm able to.

Thanks!

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LagosShia:

@JeSoul
i think you are refering to the below quoted as your "last post" you want me to treat.i actually did not bother to reply anything on that part because based on what i said and also what you've said, i can simply say "Allah knows best" and you will agree with me.these are things we cannot judge because we do not have the right to do that.however this situation about children being involved in crime should not be misunderstood with "original sin".they are different situations and cases.there is no justification in Islam to believe that a child that is born today has a sinful nature or is guilty of sin because of the sin Adam committed,which he had no knowledge of.a child is not even guilty of his own biological father's sin,talkess of accusing him of Adam's sin.

so even if i am to agree with you for instance that children can be guilty of sin which they commit,and as you agreed with me the cases must be examined one by one and the final judgement is with God,it still does not cover "original sin"."original sin" is totally different.they are different because "original sin" holds man responsible from birth for a sin he did not commit which is injustice.

in islam,children are said to be innocent because they do not have the ability to properly reason or draw judgement before acting.this is also one of the reasons present in the SHIA Islamic school of thought for totally absolving Adam of sin and still maintaining his infallibility (this is explained more in the thread on "original sin" i earlier presented to you).Adam when he ate from the tree was not exposed to certain environmental conditions and situations.so his innocence is still maintained (as his intention was not on the purpose to revolt against God) and God actually did not punish him but rather blessed him with offsprings and used that incident to teach him right from wrong and who his main enemy is (i will present some very enlightening youtube lectures on Adam and his infallibility from the SHIA Islamic view in my next post).on this note,i must say there are times an adult may do something wrong that he could be punished for it because his action is deemed sinful and punishment come after sin,but if a child does the same thing,he would not be punished because he is deemed not to have committed an act of sin but a mistake out of ignorance or misjudgement due to lack of knowledge,without purpose to be or do evil/sin which therefore does not call for punishment!!!

assuming a child does commit an act which he was able to properly reason and make judgement of its sinfulness,then judgement rest with God and also it depends on the evidence available in the court of law.ofcourse,such a situation is very rare and should not be used to make general conclusions.caution should be taken.

Fair enough sir. I will say though that I think that is also a bit of a cop out . . . I would like to know what YOU, LAGOSSHIA thinks . . . without having to refer back to a religious text or resign with the phrase that 'Allah knows best". But, fair enough thanks.

JeSoul:

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Fair enough sir. I will say though that I think that is also a bit of a cop out . . . I would like to know what YOU, LAGOSSHIA thinks . . . without having to refer back to a religious text or resign with the phrase that 'Allah knows best". But, fair enough  thanks.

you're welcome Madam!

my thoughts and beliefs are guided by what Islam teaches me.I have tried to the best of my ability to explain matters in simple terms.I hope that helps everyone.

"Allah knows best" is the answer Islam teaches us on matters that is not within our control but the power of God.so therefore,we cannot predict God especially when it comes to His judgement.we believe in Him and therefore accept He is Just and Merciful.we are also humbled by His greatness and power and therefore do not predict His judgement.otherwise,it would be arrogant of us and arrogance does impart divine wrath.that is the reason why no matter how devout or righteous a Muslim might be,he can never tell others that he will make it to paradise because that amounts to claiming divine perfection and will.for example,even Jesus and Muhammad (as) refused to predict when the Hour of Judgement would be.instead they told us that the decision/will is in God's hand.that is the example of humility and sincerity and subservience to God we Muslims must follow to attain the pleasure of Almighty God.not like some people who are so arrogant and claim to know more than the great teachers of religion in the history of mankind.

mummy3:

I saw a mad man lying dead on the road, what came to my mind was, where could he be now (heaven or hell).

He didn't have a law to have sin against. But if he was not born insane. He will be judged by the level of truth he was exposed to before he became mad.

Joagbaje:

He didn't have a law to have sin against. But if he was not born insane. He will be judged by the level of truth he was exposed to before he became mad.

Thanks joagbaje, u've just answered my question.

we are also humbled by His greatness and power

But you refuse to submit to him , tell me why

why no matter how devout or righteous a Muslim might be,he can never tell others that he will make it to paradise because that amounts to claiming divine perfection and will

You made my day !!!

How can you worship a GOD , who among the least of things cannot even assure you of your salvation. So you carry on with your religious chores hoping to make it by a gamble or should we say chance.

Sorry if God cannot confirm you are his child in the here and now, it means you are not his, simple.

for example,even Jesus and Muhammad (as) refused to predict when the Hour of Judgement

In addition Muhammad was not sure where he was headed after death !!!!

would be.instead they told us that the decision/will is in God's hand.

I will come to this

that is the example of humility and sincerity and subservience to God we Muslims must follow to attain the pleasure of Almighty GodAllah

Yeah we all know what the pleasure of your god is , subduing the infidels for ALLAH

not like some[b] people who are so arrogant[/b] and claim to know more than the great teachers of religion in the history of mankind.

can you remind me who the Quran calls the 'most proud one '.

This question lies in many ways at the heart of human responsibility and the moral question. Perhaps I limit it, and should actually say – the spiritual question, or more precisely, the question of spiritual responsibility.

A first analogy may suffice to set the principle that I believe is apt: and I derive that principle from the realm of human law, that realm whence I earn my daily bread – although I should be quick and first to name and state the fact that that is not a realm always apt for spiritual law.

At common criminal law, one of the elements necessary to ground a crime is the Mens Rea – which essentially roughly equates to the evil intention, the motive, that negative purposefulness and deliberation involved in setting out to commit a crime. My university professor used to simply state it to be “the wicked mind.”

To be exact, “Mens rea” is Latin for "guilty mind"  In criminal law, it is viewed as one of the necessary elements of a crime.

The presumption of the law in this regard is that full responsibility rests and devolves upon that actual intention – that negative deliberation, the Mens Rea – as opposed to say, something that happens per accident, or without pre-meditation – such as an instinctive action which occurs in the heat of extreme provocation or perhaps self defense.

I have already stated that not all elements in the realm of human law apply exactly to the spiritual law, but the basic principle elucidated above, I believe may give some direction in this matter – for it is within the collective and intuitive sensing of all human beings that no one may blame a man, or more precisely – punish a man, for that which he is not aware of.

Aware. Awareness.

Consciousness.

Is a child aware. Is a mad man aware. Is an unconscious man aware.

Morally aware, that is.

I have two separate thoughts regarding these questions, and essentially these are (x) that on some level each case will determine itself according to its peculiarity and (y) Karma will determine it all.

I think I need to elucidate my thoughts on these a little.

I’ll start with (x) – namely that each case will sing its own song. At the outset it might appear that it is ludicrous that a child, a mad person, or an unconscious person will bear any liability for that which he does. But I do not see this as a nuanced view.

Children
There are certainly children that act in full awareness of the evil that they do – none of us can claim that as children we were not aware at very early ages that this or that action was wrong or bad. A child however, remains a growing being with its consciousness not fully developed. Thus even where a child is aware of the wrong that it does, it may not consciously and fully appreciate its import. Thus I will be inclined to think that the deeds of children will be weighed in terms of Karma in relation to their individual level of maturity, consciousness and awareness of that which they do – and this is something that varies from person to person.

The Insane
Still on the first view – that is (x) which I mentioned above – and now in relation to the insane. The question again remains – awareness – that is – consciousness of the deeds that they do. Can we in all sincerity state that ALL insane people have no knowledge or awareness or consciousness of that which they do? I do not think that that is a nuanced view. There are a great many types and degrees of psychological infirmity and it will be a sweeping and hasty generalization, I think, to state that all such people are not aware of their deeds or the import and moral implications of their deeds. The truth will rather lie in between – there will be those who on account of their state of mind have little or no awareness of what they do, and there will be those who in spite of their state of mind, have EVERY consciousness of what they do, along with the moral implications of such actions. Along the spectrum of different cases, as I stated with the varying level of consciousness of children, the varying levels of moral awareness of these people will also serve to judge them precisely.

The unconscious

At first sight this one may seem like a ridiculous case. How can an unconscious man do wrong? How can an unconscious man even do ANYTHING? How can he be aware of what he is doing?

Again, I believe that the truth lies in greater nuance. How many times are we perfectly asleep and within a dream and yet in that dream about to take some action or the other – and even then in the dream state – we feel a pang of conscience about that deed. . . what does this mean, what does this tell us?

It tells us that there is a sub-conscious, and that moral unction also exists at the level of the subconscious. Indeed, if anything, the psychological postulations of Sigmund Freud urge us to think more carefully about the subconscious mind. It is not nothing. It exists. And if I may pursue Freudian thinking a little, I will state further that it is actually the Unclad mind. That mind which speaks and acts itself devoid of the societal impression of the Ego or Super Ego  - that mind which Freud called the Id.

It is the Id, I believe, that each man will be judged on first.

For it is the Unclad man.

Now having said all this, I also said that (y) – Karma will have its way. One could write and quote generations of whole books on this matter, But I will leave it this simple: God’s grace will fall on people. People who have a positive karma, even in sleep, childhood or mental insanity will avoid certain evils which their karma does not permit, and people who have a negative Karma will certainly fall into such evils even when conscious, adult, or mentally sound.

The ONE God, bless, and help us all.

@frosbel

your head is padlocked so you wont understand many things.they are beyond your understanding and i wont bother to enter into your narrow mind and argue with you.you make things up and then you believe them.

God praised the Prophet (sa) in many places in the Holy Quran and promised him paradise and great reward.i have presented you with the verses before from the Quran to answer your lie but you keep repeating it.it is easy to lie because you can come up with anything and propagate it.but it is not as easy to spread the truth and keep researching and presenting evidence to expose falsehood.that requires more time and effort.so you can keep lying and cling on to that.all i can tell is God will punish you for it severely because you are bent on deceiving people and also provoking others through the lies you propagate.

there is no human being on earth that is sure of salvation.this life is a test.the test continue till you breath your last.the moment to become an unbeliever all your past goodness is worth less than peanuts.so if you think you are assured of salvation,it is unfortunate you cannot prove it.wait till you die first!

DeepSight  I see you. And it is good to see you .

Some good stuff in your post . . . lemme deal with one small matter first . . .

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omo alaro:

[s]JeSoul (f)« #11 on: Today at 03:36:35 PM »


“…No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another…” (Quran 6:164)

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” (Deuteronomy 24:16)

None can reject that in these two verses, the first from the Quran and the second from the Bible, is an allusion to the same meaning: that the Just God will never punish people for the sins of others.
Christianity alleges that God created humans to live eternally in Heaven, and that when Adam ate from the tree from which he had been forbidden, God punished him through death and banishment from Heaven. They further assert that as death was inherited by his progeny, so too was the sin of their father, which was a permanent stain on the hearts of humanity, never to be removed except through a sacrifice so great that it would oblige God to forgive humanity. This sacrifice would be nothing other than the sacrifice of God himself, incarnate in His “son” Jesus. Therefore Christianity deems all of humanity as damned to Hell for the sin of Adam from which they could never be cleansed, except through the belief that God became incarnate and died for Adam’s sin, ritualized as Baptism, through which Christians are ‘born again’ into the world, but this time free of sin. So we see that the theory of ‘Original Sin’ forms the basis of various Christian beliefs, from the crucifixion of Jesus to the concept of salvation and savior from Hell. It forms the very basis for the mission of Jesus himself.
So the questions arise, is humanity guilty for the sin which Adam committed by eating from the tree he was forbidden? Must we all repent from that great sin? In what way is one to repent? And if so, what is the fate of those who did not?
Islam strictly promotes the notion that the punishment of sins will only be faced by those who commit them. Sin is not a hereditary trait or ‘stain’ passed to one’s progeny one generation to another. All people will be accountable to what only they themselves did in this life. Therefore, even though the Quran mentions the sin of Adam and how he was banished from the Garden, it places no responsibility on the shoulders of his progeny. None of the Prophets before Jesus were known to have preached this concept, nor were any other beliefs or rituals based upon this belief. Rather, salvation from Hell and attainment of Paradise was achieved through the belief in One God and obedience to His commandments, a message preached by all prophets, including Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, as well.
The Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful
As for the sin of Adam, the Quran tells us that he repented for his sin. God revealed to him words with which to repent, which he then accepted from him.
“Then Adam received Words (of forgiveness) from his Lord, and he accepted his repentance. Verily, He is the One Who repeatedly accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.” (Quran 2:37)
Through God’s acceptance of Adam’s repentance, Adam was cleansed of the sin which he committed. God in the Quran repeatedly ascribes to Himself attribute of mercy and forgiveness. He also mentions that from His Names are The Oft-Forgiving, The Most Merciful, the Accepter of Repentance, and others, all of which emphasize the All-Encompassing Mercy of God. Even to those who have sinned much and may lose hope in the forgiveness of God, He says:
“Say: ‘O My slaves who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of God, indeed God forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.’” (Quran 39:53)
If a person sins, all they need to do is truly repent from their heart, and they will find God Ever Merciful. Adam did sin, and the sin did stain his heart, but it was removed through his repentance. The Prophet Muhammad said:
“Indeed if a believer sins, a black spot covers his heart. If he repents, and stops from his sin, and seeks forgiveness for it, his heart becomes clean again. If he persists (instead of repenting), it increases until covers his heart…” (Ibn Maajah)
Even if we were to say that Adam did not repent, that stain is not passed on to further generations. Therefore, we see that God does not need any physical sacrifice in order to forgive sins, and that no sin is too great for His Mercy; to say so would be to ascribe deficiency to His Excellence and Perfection. The Prophet Muhammad relates to us that God said:
“O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.” (Al-Tirmidhi)
God says in the Quran in regards to sacrifice, that it is the intention of the person when offering the sacrifice which is of importance, and not the actual sacrifice itself.
“It is neither their meat nor their blood that reaches God, but it is piety from you that reaches Him, ” (Quran 22:37)
If we were to implement this verse in regards to the original sin and God incarnate sacrificing himself in order to forgive all of humanity, we see that even without seeking repentance for Adam’s sin, God forgave human beings due to His Own Sacrifice. Could He not have forgiven them without such a sacrifice?
It is also mentioned in the bible:
[b]“To what purpose (is) the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? Saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; (it is) iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear (them). And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.”[/b]


The Divine Will of the Perfect God

So Adam sought forgiveness for His sin, and God accepted it from Him. Another crucial point which must be mentioned is that God created humans with a free will, and He knew that humanity would sin. For this reason, no human is expected to be perfect, but rather, God knows that they will sin. What is expected from humans is that they repent from their sin. The Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, said:
“All children of Adam repetitively make mistakes, but the best of those who make mistakes are those who repent.” (Ibn Maajah)
The Prophet also said:
“By Him in Whose Hand is My soul (i.e. God), if you did not commit sins, God would do away with you and come with a race which committed sins. They would seek forgiveness from God and He would forgive them. (Saheeh Muslim #4936)
So here we see that it was in the Great and Wise plan of God that Adam sin and that God forgive him for that sin, and to say that Adam went against the Universal Will of God by sinning is a blasphemy against the All Encompassing Knowledge, Power, and Will of God. Christianity goes so far as to say that God even repented from the creation of humans! May God be free from all defects people attribute to Him. In Genesis 6:6, it says to quote:
“And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart”
To agree to this would mean that Adam did something which was out of the Will, Power, and Knowledge of God, and that God regretted His creation of humans. God is All-Perfect and so are His deeds, and there is no defect or shortcoming in them; He does nothing except with total and complete perfection and wisdom. Islam in no way agrees to this belief and, as we mentioned, all of what occurred in the story of Adam was within the perfect plan of God. The Prophet said:
“Indeed God put everything into its proper measure fifty thousand years before the creation of the heavens and the earths.” (Al-Tirmidhi)
God mentions in the Quran what took place between the angels when He announced the creation of humans, and from this we see that it was known to God and part of His Great and Divine Plan that humans would sin. God says:
“And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: ‘Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth.’ They said: ‘Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks and sanctify You.’ He (God) said: ‘Indeed I know that which you do not know.’” (Quran 2:30)
It is also clear from these verses that God did not create humans as immortal, and that death was prescribed for them from the beginning of their creation. As for the consequences of the sin of Adam, which was his extradition from the Garden, this was felt by those to come after him and this is only natural. If one was to become drunk and have a car accident, and some of the passengers die, the sin of driver effects the passengers in their death, but that does not mean that the passengers are to be held to account for the sin of the driver.
The Innocent
Another question which must be dealt with is the fate of those who came before the claim that God became incarnate and sacrificed himself for the sins of humanity, as well as the fate of those who were not baptized, as baptism is the rite which all Christians must perform in order to be cleansed of Original Sin. In Christian belief, all humans previous to the incarnation of God, including the Prophets and infants usually regarded as sinless, are not free from the Original Sin of Adam, and therefore cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, As Augustine said: “Do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin.” Only until recently, non-baptized infants were not buried in consecrated ground because they were believed to have died in original sin.
Also, we know that the verse in the Apostles’ Creed, “… and (Jesus) descended into Hell”, is said to mean that Jesus descended to Hell to free the righteous souls who were there due to the sin of Adam. This leads us to believe that all those before the coming of Jesus are in Hell, even if they were from the righteous. Paul mentioned this himself in Galatians:
“… a man is not justified by the works of the law , for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16)
Here it is clear that adherence to the commandments of God is not enough for salvation, even for those before Jesus. This also holds true to all those who have not received the message of Christianity. We must ask; why did not the Prophets before Jesus call to this notion of original sin? Did they lie when they said that it was enough to Worship One God and obey His commandments to achieve Paradise? Why did not God come and free humanity from sin at the time of Adam so that the righteous and others would not be in Hell due to his sin? Why are infants, humanity before Jesus, and others who have not heard about Christianity, held accountable for a sin they never committed, nor have knowledge about how to remit themselves from it? The truth of the matter is that the notion of “Original Sin”, as many others, was one introduced by Paul and later expounded on by Christian scholars and councils.
“The Old Testament says nothing about the transmission of hereditary sin to the entire human race… the main scriptural affirmation of the doctrine is found in the writings of St. Paul…”
This concept though, was expounded by Augustine of Hippo, one of the most prominent Christian scholars in History. The basis of this concept is that “the deliberate sin of the first man (Adam) is the cause of original sin.” The Second Council of Orange (529 C.E.) declared, “One man has transmitted to the whole human race not only the death of the body, which is the punishment of sin, but even sin itself, which is the death of the soul.”
The concept of original sin is one which has no basis in previous scriptures regarded as divine by Christianity. None of the Prophets before Jesus were known to have preached this concept, nor were any other beliefs or rituals based upon them. Rather, salvation from Hell was achieved through the belief in One God and obedience to His commandments which was preached by all prophets, including the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, may God praise them.

Summary
In Islam, the key to salvation is the belief in and worship of the One True, Unique and Perfect God and obedience to His commandments, the same message brought by all Prophets. Islam preaches that a person must work righteousness and avoid sin to attain Paradise, and that if one sins, that they seek repentance for it from their heart. Through this and the Mercy and Grace of God, they will enter Paradise. Islam does not deem that all those before the advent of Muhammad are doomed to Hell, but rather that each nation was sent a prophet by the same One God, and it was upon them to follow His commandments. Those who have not heard of the message are not held liable to follow Islam, and God will deal with them with His Perfect Justice on the Day of Judgment. Infants and children of both Muslims and disbelievers alike are in enjoyment in Paradise upon death. Due to the infinite Justice of God:
“No one laden with burdens can bear another’s burden. And We never punish (people) until We have sent (to them) a Messenger (to give warning).” (Quran 17:15)
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Alas, omo alaro, I must withdraw my last post to you, seeing you neglected to mention the above post was not yours but rather copypasted from this site . . . http://www.chatislamonline.org/chat/Document.aspx?id=68&lang=2  or maybe one of the other 10 I also found? Perhaps you simply forgot to include the link.

 You must forgive me, but I prefer to talk to people, rather than at articles .

LagosShia:

you're welcome Madam!

[b]my thoughts and beliefs are guided by what Islam teaches me.[/b]I have tried to the best of my ability to explain matters in simple terms.I hope that helps everyone.

"Allah knows best" is the answer Islam teaches us on matters that is not within our control but the power of God.so therefore,we cannot predict God especially when it comes to His judgement.we believe in Him and therefore accept He is Just and Merciful.we are also humbled by His greatness and power and therefore do not predict His judgement.otherwise,it would be arrogant of us and arrogance does impart divine wrath.that is the reason why no matter how devout or righteous a Muslim might be,he can never tell others that he will make it to paradise because that amounts to claiming divine perfection and will.for example,even Jesus and Muhammad (as) refused to predict when the Hour of Judgement would be.instead they told us that the decision/will is in God's hand.that is the example of humility and sincerity and subservience to God we Muslims must follow to attain the pleasure of Almighty God.not like some people who are so arrogant and claim to know more than the great teachers of religion in the history of mankind.

Point taken. And this is true for all of us by the way, we are guided by one thing or another. For some it is religion, some experience, some something else.

Your point that we should not insert ourselves in a position of judgement over others is seconded and that isn't what I was trying to ask per se. Sometimes when we're asked difficult questions we retreat behind our religion, when there may be an obvious but difficult answer. God has given us wisdom and intellect and His spirit - and I believe He intends for us to use it. Specific examples of such cases evade me now but just as a general point. Hope that makes sense?

Deep Sight:

                                                         
This question lies in many ways at the heart of human responsibility and the moral question. Perhaps I limit it, and should actually say – the spiritual question, or more precisely, the question of spiritual responsibility.

A first analogy may suffice to set the principle that I believe is apt: and I derive that principle from the realm of human law, that realm whence I earn my daily bread – although I should be quick and first to name and state the fact that that is not a realm always apt for spiritual law.

At common criminal law, one of the elements necessary to ground a crime is the Mens Rea – which essentially roughly equates to the evil intention, the motive, that negative purposefulness and deliberation involved in setting out to commit a crime. My university professor used to simply state it to be “the wicked mind.”

To be exact, “Mens rea” is Latin for "guilty mind"  In criminal law, it is viewed as one of the necessary elements of a crime.

The presumption of the law in this regard is that full responsibility rests and devolves upon that actual intention – that negative deliberation, the Mens Rea – as opposed to say, something that happens per accident, or without pre-meditation – such as an instinctive action which occurs in the heat of extreme provocation or perhaps self defense.

I have already stated that not all elements in the realm of human law apply exactly to the spiritual law, but the basic principle elucidated above, I believe may give some direction in this matter – for it is within the collective and intuitive sensing of all human beings that no one may blame a man, or more precisely – punish a man, for that which he is not aware of.

  The above is just fantastic. And hints at the point I was trying to make to LagosShia - certain things we do not need a religious text to tell us, the inherent nature of God in all of us speaks this to our hearts clearly. 

Aware. Awareness.

Consciousness.

Is a child aware. Is a mad man aware. Is an unconscious man aware.

Morally aware, that is.

I have two separate thoughts regarding these questions, and essentially these are (x) that on some level each case will determine itself according to its peculiarity and (y) Karma will determine it all.

I think I need to elucidate my thoughts on these a little.

I’ll start with (x) – namely that each case will sing its own song. At the outset it might appear that it is ludicrous that a child, a mad person, or an unconscious person will bear any liability for that which he does. But I do not see this as a nuanced view.

Children
There are certainly children that act in full awareness of the evil that they do – none of us can claim that as children we were not aware at very early ages that this or that action was wrong or bad. A child however, remains a growing being with its consciousness not fully developed. Thus even where a child is aware of the wrong that it does, it may not consciously and fully appreciate its import. Thus I will be inclined to think that the deeds of children will be weighed in terms of Karma in relation to their individual level of maturity, consciousness and awareness of that which they do – and this is something that varies from person to person.

A better articulated version of the below . . .

JeSoul:
Also we know children do have a sense of wrong and right . . . even though it is a basic and under-developed one, they still have it. Which is why a child will hide or run when be breaks a plate or breaks the neighbors window - he/she knows they did something wrong.

The Insane
Still on the first view – that is (x) which I mentioned above – and now in relation to the insane. The question again remains – awareness – that is – consciousness of the deeds that they do. Can we in all sincerity state that ALL insane people have no knowledge or awareness or consciousness of that which they do? I do not think that that is a nuanced view. There are a great many types and degrees of psychological infirmity and it will be a sweeping and hasty generalization, I think, to state that all such people are not aware of their deeds or the import and moral implications of their deeds. The truth will rather lie in between – there will be those who on account of their state of mind have little or no awareness of what they do, and there will be those who in spite of their state of mind, have EVERY consciousness of what they do, along with the moral implications of such actions. Along the spectrum of different cases, as I stated with the varying level of consciousness of children, the varying levels of moral awareness of these people will also serve to judge them precisely.

The unconscious

At first sight this one may seem like a ridiculous case. How can an unconscious man do wrong? How can an unconscious man even do ANYTHING? How can he be aware of what he is doing?

Again, I believe that the truth lies in greater nuance. How many times are we perfectly asleep and within a dream and yet in that dream about to take some action or the other – and even then in the dream state – we feel a pang of conscience about that deed. . . what does this mean, what does this tell us?

It tells us that there is a sub-conscious, and that moral unction also exists at the level of the subconscious. Indeed, if anything, the psychological postulations of Sigmund Freud urge us to think more carefully about the subconscious mind. It is not nothing. It exists. And if I may pursue Freudian thinking a little, I will state further that it is actually the Unclad mind. That mind which speaks and acts itself devoid of the societal impression of the Ego or Super Ego  - that mind which Freud called the Id.

It is the Id, I believe, that each man will be judged on first.

For it is the Unclad man.

Now having said all this, I also said that (y) – Karma will have its way. One could write and quote generations of whole books on this matter, But I will leave it this simple: God’s grace will fall on people. People who have a positive karma, even in sleep, childhood or mental insanity will avoid certain evils which their karma does not permit, and people who have a negative Karma will certainly fall into such evils even when conscious, adult, or mentally sound.

The ONE God, bless, and help us all. 

Infact I can find no issue whatsoever with any of the above. You have addressed the extremes & middle ground, knowing nothing is ever truly black or white, and God alone recognizes these 'nuanced' shades - and the righteous Jugde will give grace & punishment justly.

Welcome Back DS! Great post to make ur comeback.

JeSoul:

Point taken. And this is true for all of us by the way, we are guided by one thing or another. For some it is religion, some experience, some something else.

  Your point that we should not insert ourselves in a position of judgement over others is seconded and that isn't what I was trying to ask per se. Sometimes when we're asked difficult questions we retreat behind our religion, when there may be an obvious but difficult answer. God has given us wisdom and intellect and His spirit - and I believe He intends for us to use it. Specific examples of such cases evade me now but just as a general point. Hope that makes sense?

your point that God has blessed us with intellect and we must use it is seconded.

i am totally in support of that.it is not that i am unable to answer or my religion,Islam has not given good answers to difficult questions.Islam has given answers to everything.rather,i refrained from answering on the particular subject you raised because i do not want to play God and the decision rests in the hand of God.i can only make explanations to understand the intricacies involved and what to do and not to do in order to please God and attain salvation.but judgement rests with God.i cannot sentence anyone to hell fire or reward anyone with paradise because that is above me or any human being for that matter.

JeSoul:

DeepSight I see you. And it is good to see you .

Some good stuff in your post . . . lemme deal with one small matter first . . .

---

Alas, omo alaro, I must withdraw my last post to you, seeing you neglected to mention the above post was not yours but rather copypasted from this site . . . http://www.chatislamonline.org/chat/Document.aspx?id=68&lang=2 or maybe one of the other 10 I also found? Perhaps you simply forgot to include the link.

You must forgive me, but I prefer to talk to people, rather than at articles .

He he. I wanna learn how to crawl the web and burst people too. Any tips, JeSoul?