I feel you on that one. And I'll observe accordingly.

Blessings.

ok,

Could it be that it was because Christ foresaw what could happen later about Catholics and others emphasising MAry that he decided to start rebuking Mary openly? In several instancs he rebuked her openly so that people would not think that she has a special place in his heart?

@Cgift,

Do you think that Christ rebuked Mary and He still went ahead to do her request - turning water into wine? Christ didn't want to show Himself at that period, and that was why she said "woman my hour has not come." But because of Mary He had to perform His first miracle, and it was against Christ's wish. Yet He had to listen to His mother - demonstrating the obedient you are to give to your parents.

Let me break your back my catholic friends:

http://www.chick.com/reading/books/153/153_01.asp.

[color=#006600]You guys do not know your history. If you do, you wont remain there a second and would be blaming yourself why you had remained in that religion all this while. You have the opportunity to know the truth that you Pope and bishops wont tell you. Read the whole book for yourselves beginning with the frst chapter. The history is babaric to say the list.

I commit you to the hands of God.[/color]

I have carefully gone through this thread and read every single word from every commentator till the last one, but i do have some reservations about the authors of this thread. Am a full blooded catholic and remain one till i die. The aim of this post is for all catholics to be here and share experiences in the catholic doctrine and find other ways of branching out. I take exceptional anger at Oby for replying any of the rascalities thrown on this thread to diminish the actual aim of the thread. Non catholics who are supposed to come and fellowship on this thread are casting aspertations and indignant remarks and repeating the same old mantra of

1. We pray to mary

2. No where in the bible did it say mary should be a mediatrix

3. we worship idols and bow to them

4. we believe in purgatory which is non existent

5. blah blah blah

It's beginning to sound like a broken record and the more Oby and ebo continue to defend the faith, the more we probably acceed to their demands and follow their doctrines or whatever they are trying to do on this thread.

Remember it's our fellowship to help each other understand the doctrine more and not engage in endless debates with people who for the next 2 million years will still be asking you the same questions despite your concrete defences. Remember the bible said " they will be like roaring lions roaming the earth looking for who to devour". Even if we switch to another thread to protect our sanctity, they will still follow you to make fun, mock you, provoke you and claim they want answers to their questions and ask you the same old mantra.

So what do you do? You ignore! And the more they see that this thread is basically dealing with catholic issues that affects catholics alone, quitely, they will leave and search for other threads to show their superior knowledge of the bible which they believe is bestowed only upon them to save souls that we supposedly dim witted catholics with wools in our eyes can't comprehend. So please Oby and Ebo, keep up the good work and let's face the thread squarely.

Once again, no matter how your provoked into answering their provocating questions, remember the aim of this thread and if need be, transfer the defence to another thread that would be suitably apt for logical reasoning.

So going back to your original question Oby, i just recently joined the st. rita fellowish group and so far so good, a lot of good stuffs has been happening. Hope to hear more from you and Ebo and a host of other catholics and let this original conversation flow.

Remember the magic word IGNORE!

YOUR BOTH BLESSED AND MAY THE PEACE OF THE LORD BE WITH YOU. AMEN!

@Lawyer,

I think we have to ignore any post(s) that insult Catholic Church, but anyone that truly want explanation on why this and that in Catholic Church should be given attention. Though, the person may not have to agree, but we will try our best to respect a mature mind.

I don’t like engaging in any debate in Nairaland because they can easily insult, but after my debate with Pilgrim 1 in one of the threads, I found out that she is different from most people who insult easily – though, she may not agree with your point(s), but at least her civility is what enticed me most. Cgift is another person that has displayed his maturity in any of our discussions. It was that scoundrel called Backslider & co who came and showed what they are made of – uncivil and scalawag to the core. The only site you can debate with people and be sure of no insult is vanguard poll. That is where I like to have a debate chiefly on politics and our contributions are published occasionally for Nigerians to read.

Sincerely speaking, I do not see Pilgrim and Cgift being rude, but know beforehand that Pilgrim’s chances of believing you is just 15% . The rest of 85% is NO GO AREA. I can offer explanation on Catholic faith and that of Papacy on a cordial discussions. It could be dangerous to remain 100% silent when Catholic is castigated, because we have some Catholics who doesn’t know their left and right, and these people can easily be deceived if no explanation is given to convince them. That is why I find it a bit difficult to keep complete silent.

Some people can change tactics – that they were Catholics but when they discovered the truth, they now left and joined the living church. But the truth of the matter is that, these people might not be Catholics even for a day or they were such Catholics of Sunday, Sunday medicines. Now check out the implication of that statement to fellow Catholics who doesn’t read their bibles – then keeping complete quiet may not be helpful.

Cgift,

What you do not ask yourself is this, who wrote those histories that condemned Catholic Church? The enemies of the Catholic (the true Church of Christ) wrote them. So, you don’t expect anything good from them. That is the very reason I don’t like reading them. Have you taken your time to read Jehovah witness magazine? They always write rubbish against Catholic Church – deceiving people. So, you have to disregard such books. They are evil.

Did anyone take time to read what i said? What are y'all arguing about? The post said "The Real Catholics" in part. Those of y'all defending the faith never said anything about that. Who are the real catholics? The "Catholics" or the "Roman Catholics"? If the Catholics say they're the "real", then what about the Roman Catholics? Are they fakes?

@Lawyer
I see you're a real lawyer, no offence man . but, to me:

1. I don't think you guys really pray to Mary, but rather, pray through Mary.

2. Bowing doesn't necessarily mean "dipping your head until it is in line with your waist". Dipping your head however slightly, is still bowing.

In the light of those two, i wish to say that all i've said now and before isn't to say that Catholics are not 'Real' or 'Fake'. They've been said based on what i've seen and not what i've heard. I don't expect a reply on this, but,

Like i said earlier ebo, ignoring them is still the best thing to do on this thread. How long do you want to explain the obvious? We'll keep on repeating the same thing till you get to page 500 on this thread but they will still be asking the same questions and making rude remarks about the catholic church.

If a catholic is on this thread and needs to know more on this thread, what is too hard in identifying themselves? And if new people that are curious about the catholic faith pose intelligent questions to know more, is that also a difficult thing to be civil about it. Take for example the Dr lorenzo chap, he queried the catholic church in earlier pages of this thread and you guys tried to give him an answer and still yet, he's still trying to wind you up with the same remarks about the catholic church. How long do you need to engage in a religious banter with someone that is hell bent on making fun of the catholics?

So if you think silence is a dangerous thing, we should weigh the differences and uphold the aim of this thread.

Bless ma brother!

@lawyer,

ebos:

I don’t like engaging in any debate in Nairaland because they can easily insult, but after my debate with Pilgrim 1 in one of the threads, I found out that she is different from most people who insult easily – though, she may not agree with your point(s), but at least her civility is what enticed me most.

Perhaps you could not see what others have the decency to observe. No wahala. I've always made it plain that the greatest mistake anyone could make on Nairaland is address pilgrim.1 in a manner that they can hardly bear in return, lol. But not to worry - discussing is one thing; learning is quite another. Some schooling up for you when I reply your 'epistle' in the other thread.

Warmest regards.

lawyer:

Remember the bible said " they will be like roaring lions roaming the earth looking for who to devour".

Bros the Lawyer, how far now ? Even though i've not participated in this thread, i don't think the devil has either (at least not in person). None of the people i've seen here (on both sides of the debate) fills the criteria for being indirectly referred to as the devil. Abi you don forget the subject of that quote (1Pet. 5:8 )? Na the devil naa, abeg Pilgrim and co no be devil o bros.

lawyer:

Remember the magic word IGNORE!

While it is good not to indulge in unprofitable arguments, i think it is also wise to note that there are some things one should NOT ignore. Please, no matter from which direction the Word of God is coming, as long as it is His Word, one must not ignore it (Balaam's case is a noteworthy example). You can ignore insults (if there are), you can ignore taunts or whatever but please don't ignore Baba's Word.
Like Paul said; "If (anyone) ignores this (Word), he himself will be ignored." (1Cor.14:38 - words in parenthesis mine). So whilst you are preaching ignorance, sorry, ignor-ing, don't let yourself by ignored.

If your purpose is to restrict this thread to a catholic-only thread, no qualms. However, people must engage and be engaged with the TRUTH. Debates must continue. Cheers .

Hi ebos,

How bodi?    I just want you to observe the decorum you've maintained from the very first instance we began discussing issues. It's true we may not agree on so many points (15% to 85% is quite a wide margin   ). . . but your cordiality is much appreciated. I'd just ask that you ignore my responses to lawyer's for the moment, because you might have cause to read stuff that would make you scratch and twist.

I'll be lenient with him, though. . . in consideration of my few Catholic friends on the Forum.

Enjoying your weekend, I trust? More to you. Cheers.

A-ha!! Oga pata-pata ricadelide!! Where wert thou all this years?

ricadelide:

Bros the Lawyer, how far now ? Even though i've not participated in this thread, i don't think the devil has either (at least not in person). None of the people i've seen here (on both sides of the debate) fills the criteria for being indirectly referred to as the devil. Abi you don forget the subject of that quote (1Pet. 5:8 )? Na the devil naa, abeg Pilgrim and co no be devil o bros.

Hehe. . . simply consider that as "signs of the times". Actually, I really like to tease lawyer. . . because (oh gosh, I'm laughing soooooo hard! ). . because he was really being mild! I only wanted him to quote the verse where he read that the bible said "they will be like roaring lions roaming the earth looking for who to devour"! Which translation or Vulgate be that?!?

ricadelide:

While it is good not to indulge in unprofitable arguments, i think it is also wise to note that there are some things one should NOT ignore. Please, no matter from which direction the Word of God is coming, as long as it is His Word, one must not ignore it (Balaam's case is a noteworthy example). You can ignore insults (if there are), you can ignore taunts or whatever but please don't ignore Baba's Word.
Like Paul said; "If (anyone) ignores this (Word), he himself will be ignored." (1Cor.14:38 - words in parenthesis mine). So whilst you are preaching ignorance, sorry, ignor-ing, don't let yourself by ignored.

I no fit laugh finish! Maybe I should log out first and then come back to tease him more!

ricadelide:

If your purpose is to restrict this thread to a catholic-only thread, no qualms. However, people must engage and be engaged with the TRUTH. Debates must continue. Cheers .

I hope he who has ears to hear with use them well! (Okay, that's my own paraphrase O! ).

How bodi? Trust all's well.

Regards.

@lawyer,

lawyer:

I take exceptional anger at Oby for replying any of the rascalities thrown on this thread to diminish the actual aim of the thread. . .


So please Oby and Ebo, keep up the good work and let's face the thread squarely.

Wetin dey bite you? On the one hand, you dey take "exceptional anger" at Oby1 while on the other hand commending her! Bros, cool down - I don't bite!

Pilgrim, I’m fine and enjoying my weekend. Hope you too? Meanwhile, any assail against Lawyer is absolutely not acceptable. Lawyer has made some good points.

I'm not going to assail him. . . just cool down. I'm laughing so hard (and thankful that nobody is here with me in the office)!

You know me - I don't bite. . . I just sink my teeth somewhere soft and juicy - and I munch . . . g-r-a-d-u-a-l-l-y!! When I'm done, I toss the remains to Poseidon!

@pilgrim,

pilgrim.1:

A-ha!! Oga pata-pata ricadelide!! Where wert thou all this years?

You don come o - oga ke? pata-pata? Haba!
Don't mind me - i should be here (considering i spent the first fourteen or so years of my life in the roman catholic church - before Baba rescued me), however i kind of get spurts of free time to show up. Hopefully soon i'd be less choked. However, reading is less demanding than posting so i'm usually still around.

pilgrim.1:

Hehe. . . simply consider that as "signs of the times". Actually, I really like to tease lawyer. . . because (oh gosh, I'm laughing soooooo hard! ). . because he was really being mild! I only wanted him to quote the verse where he read that the bible said "they will be like roaring lions roaming the earth looking for who to devour"! Which translation or Vulgate be that?!?

Lawyer's faulty argument translation (LFAT) 

pilgrim.1:

I no fit laugh finish! Maybe I should log out first and then come back to tease him more!

Unfortunately for me, my teasing abilities tend to border on the sarcastic, hence i have to refrain ever so often to keep from being labelled as spewing "rascalities" .
_{Oh God, help, i've done it again}

pilgrim.1:

I hope he who has ears to hear with use them well! (Okay, that's my own paraphrase O! ).

Don't worry i wont assail you 

pilgrim.1:

How bodi? Trust all's well.

Regards.

Very well actually. And you? Enjoy your weekend. Cheers

why do u non catholics spend so much time attacking catholics,get up and faceit, if u don't beliv,live with it but as for me and my family we will honour our MOTHER MARY THE MOTHER OF GOD till we die.do any of ya have any problem with that,hide under your locker and please this forum is for spiritual upliftment and not criticisms.how does your life reflect CHRIST.LEAVE CATHOLICS ALONE AND DO MORE LOVING OF GOD S OWN PEOPLE.


CATHOLIC FOR LIFE

[b]seskee,

[/b]Be careful. Many have gone.

Several thousands of people who made same remarks and are today on th other side? When God catch you, you go sabi say you dey miss.

Do not take refuge in Mary. Seek refuge in Christ. The ones that are far more knowledgeable than you in this game of Catholicism cannot tell us whose example they are following in the same bible (they profess to have compiled for the protestants) by honouring Mary. They cannot tell us why they have killed and burnt people alive who refused to acknowledge that the bread and wine being used in their communion was the real flesh and blood of Jesus but only symbolic. They have not told us whom they have copied amongst the Apostles (even if it their first proclaimd pope, "Peter) how to make graven images.

Too many things left unproven. You do not know things down here. You need to go to th Vatican to learn that the Vatican is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Dont get offended. Just ask me for proofs if you care to learn more.

It’s like each time Catholic is mentioned, epilepsy go catch some people for mouth and hand. Dem no fit control their mouths again. Na carry go for their yarns, one way, ahead, ahead. But for their hands, dem no fit control it again for keyboard. No wahala, e no stop de love we get for una. But na only God go open una eyes, and heal the epilepsy wey dey make una mouth no close against Catholic.

Lol. . . Hi ebos,

Nobody dey shake for mention of 'Catholic'. We dey kampé. . and we need answers from una!

@seskee,

seskee:

why do u non catholics spend so much time attacking catholics,get up and faceit, if u don't beliv,live with it

We are not attacking 'Catholics' by asking you to open the Bible and find answers there instead of ignoring what God has said.

"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" (Galatians 4:16)

seskee:

but as for me and my family we will honour our MOTHER MARY THE MOTHER OF GOD till we die.

Lol. . . we know that Catholics have been misled by their Popes to ALWAYS put ALL their trust and hope in Mary whom they call the theotokos ("Mother of God". Rather than put your trust in a creature, it is always safer to trust in the Creator!

[list]
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD,

choose you this day whom ye will serve;
whether the gods which your fathers served
that were on the other side of the flood,
or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell:

but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15)[/list]

Perhaps, it is not by co-incidence that we read the following verse (maybe as a prophetic warning) that may well speak of the Vatican, of whom it is written as concerning those. . ."Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen." (Rom. 1:25).


It pays to put your trust in the LORD God and in Him alone, even as godly saints have testified: "It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man." (Psa. 118:8). No one (not even Mary in whom Catholics have always put ALL their hope and trust) is deserving of the prayers of the saints. Praying to Mary is making her what God never intended for her to be - and that is the sad case of disobedience by which the Vatican has bound itself.

@seskee,

seskee:

do any of ya have any problem with that,hide under your locker and please this forum is for spiritual upliftment and not criticisms.

How have you sought to practice what you preach?   Asking people not to criticize when you have done the very same thing by asking them to hide in their locker is another sign of 'unity' that Catholics offer others.

seskee:

how does your life reflect CHRIST.

John 14:15 - "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

[list]Can Catholics show us where Christ commanded us to pray to Mary?
Can Catholics show us where Christ commanded us to bow down to statues of Mary and the Pope?
Can Catholics show us where Christ commanded us to put ALL our trust and hope in Mary as Catholics have ALWAYS done?[/list]

Wetin we go do if Catholics no fit find where Christ "commanded" them to practice Mariolatry?

seskee:

LEAVE CATHOLICS ALONE AND DO MORE LOVING OF GOD S OWN PEOPLE.

Because we love "God's own people", we continue

- to pleade with you,
- to love you,
- to pray for you,
- to show you what God has said in the Bible,
- to encourage you to read it for yourself,
- to obey His WORD.

Acts 5:29
"Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men."

Are Catholics merely "honouring" Mary or actually PRAYING TO her? What does it mean to "pray to" someone - especially in a religious sense of the word "to pray"?

We've heard so many times from Catholics who proffer that they only "honour" Mary. Ask them to clarify the meaning of such 'honours' to Mary, and they're not likely to oblige further answers. Is it possible that there's a Holy Spirit conviction in their hearts already that praying to Mary is actually deifying her? And is it possible that many who come under the conviction of God's Spirit in their hearts are simply not willing to listen to Him because of their dread to leave age-old unfounded traditions of the Vatican?

Let's sample a few of such "honours" to Mary - and then see if these are not actually PRAYERS TO Mary and deifying her to a status that God nowhere accords any creature:

[list]"O Mary, Virgin most powerful and Mother of mercy, Queen of Heaven and Refuge of sinners,
we consecrate ourselves to thine Immaculate Heart.
We consecrate to thee our very being and our WHOLE life;
all that we have, all that we love, all  that we are.
To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls;
to thee we give our homes,  our families, our country. . .

Finally, we promise thee, O glorious Mother of God and loving Mother of men,
to devote  ourselves whole-heartedly to the service of thy blessed cult,
in order to hasten and assure,  through the sovereignty of thine Immaculate Heart,
the coming of the kingdom of the Sacred  Heart of thine adorable Son,
in our own hearts and in those of all men, in our country and in all  the world,
as in heaven. so on earth. Amen."[/list]

Source: (http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/Consecration_mary.htm)


Was the above an example of "honouring" Mary - or it has gone over that to actually PRAYING TO her? Who is being addressed in that PRAYER? And if it was merely an "honour", what is the word "Amen" doing at the end of that address to the cult?

Catholics, this is not an attack. We need answers to show us WHY Protestants are wrong for not praying to Mary; and HOW exactly we are disobeying God for not practicing Mariolatry.

Cheers. 

Pilgrim, I don’t know if I will leave you for now to avoid stirring a sleeping lion? Before I go begin hear ‘na my own I dey jeje when dem no gree Pilgrim 1 rest. I get to flow with you well later on a good frame of mind. Because, if you set yourself in battle array right now – the kind of bomb you will drop will make that of Hiroshima or Nagasaki a child’s play. It will be devastating. Though, still appreciate you.

ebos:

Pilgrim, I don’t know if I will leave you for now to avoid stirring a sleeping lion? Before I go begin hear ‘na my own I dey jeje when them no gree Pilgrim 1 rest. I get to flow with you well later on a good frame of mind. Because, if you set yourself in battle array right now – the kind of bomb you will drop will make that of Hiroshima or Nagasaki a child’s play. It will be devastating. Though, still appreciate you.

@ebos

When i tell you before say make you ignore, and let's face the original aims of this thread, you say e no good to keep silent. Make we try educate them. Educate what? People that would continue to taunt catholics till the end of time? people that would continue to tell you what your doing is wrong and you should follow theirs? No matter what you say and do, you, there would continue to be more questions than answers for them.

The more you try to offer explanations, the more they see the fallacies that you explained to them.

The more you remain civil, the more they bring out your violent side

Dont you get it ebos, they are trying to wind you up and not seek a healthy discuss on this thread. Are you an expert on theological matters? Your duty is to obey the words of God and do his bidding. You have no duty of care to debate God's words with other fellow christians. People will always take pot shots at catholics, but does it mean catholics will vanish from the planet. Catholics will always be a threat to them and it's their duty to make it extinct. So the more you exchange banters with them and you cave in to their excuses that " we are only trying to show you that you should follow the words of the scripture and not the vatican crap that it spews daily"

If i choose to ask mary as my intercessor, whose bloody business is it?

If i choose to bow down to the cruxific, whose business is it?

If i choose to say the mysteries of the rosary, whose business is it?

Did i come to their houses and force them to do it with me?

Likewise, when they are are doing their miracle crusades, how does that affect me?

when they are doing their praise worship and speaking in tongues, how does it affect the way i sleep?

How does the church behind my house that does it's nightly 5 days virgil affect me from doing my work?

We all continue to criticize and claim my denomination is better and i know the right passage of the bible better than you and i want you to be saved. Question, who beg you!!!!

The way they talk about being the wisest in scriptural matters, simply means that catholics can not get to heaven ever because according to them, we are idol worshippers. Okay i tell them bluntly " I de worship idols according to them", shoot me now! shebi Efcc of idolatory and mariolatory don enter town!

Brother men, please, i ask once again, let's go back to the origin of this thread and face it squarely. There is so much, catholics can learn from each other instead of wasting endless time helping anti catholics answer their jamb questions when no they ever get answer.

Peace y'all

ebos:

Pilgrim, I don’t know if I will leave you for now to avoid stirring a sleeping lion? Before I go begin hear ‘na my own I dey jeje when them no gree Pilgrim 1 rest. I get to flow with you well later on a good frame of mind. Because, if you set yourself in battle array right now – the kind of bomb you will drop will make that of Hiroshima or Nagasaki a child’s play. It will be devastating. Though, still appreciate you.

Lol, ebos. . .

For your sake, I'll forebear. You wow me many times by your cool attitude in the wave of the debates so far - and that's commendable. Me, na my own I just dey jeje when. . .! Okay, I shut up! You've a rare foresight - because I was actually going to post something close to rattling the nerves of any hard-nosed Catholic on the Forum wey no go let pilgrim.1 rest.

But no. . . enough for now. I go just jeje leave una my song again:

_{Angels are singing. . You are worthy O LORD, You are worthy O LORD!
[img]http://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~cs644/Godfried/2005/Fall/burgoyne/sonWest.gif[/img]
Angels are singing. . You are worthy O LORD, You are worthy O LORD!}


I value your friendship, ebos (nevermind my rascally behaviour recently).

"ageless" pilgrim . How you dey today? [b]Lawyer [/b]don give you name. How is Moses and Abraham doing, they seem to b your friend.

Just forbear, pilgrim. We will be comfortable and feel happy if you only encourage us with your song. However, your being rascally never outweighed your civility, and will never have your slight shift in mind. You were a Muslim, and I guess you were just converted. Probably, less than two years? So, feel fine always.

cgift:

"ageless" pilgrim . How you dey today? [b]Lawyer [/b]don give you name. How is Moses and Abraham doing, they seem to b your friend.

@cgift,

Lol. . . wetin I for do? Well, Abraham and Moses dey kampé - and dem salute us plenty. Dem just say make we behave ourselves down here and to remember that we have 'so great a cloud of witnesses' plus 'the spirits of just men made perfect' who are ever encouraging us before Jesus returns (Heb. 12:1-2, 23). More than that, Moses say make I take a chill pill - or he go change im rod to something wey I no expect! So, I don chill small!

ebos:

Just forbear, pilgrim. We will be comfortable and feel happy if you only encourage us with your song. However, your being rascally never outweighed your civility, and will never have your slight shift in mind. You were a Muslim, and I guess you were just converted. Probably, less than two years? So, feel fine always.

@ebos,

Hehe. . there's nothing more I can do for now than as you recommended: encourage you with songs. I get them plenty. There's the song of Moses (Exo. 15:11) - them even sing another one again for Revelation 15:3! I no see Mary inside that song when them begin sing am sha -


<sub>Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?||. . .

[img]http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:9_gRERpD1TookM:http://ecmc.rochester.edu/ecmc/docs/score11/Fig04.gif[/img] . . .||

Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.</sub>



Even sef, David join the massive choir - with all the harps and psaltery! Kai! . . ebos, you suppose dey there to hear music for your soul!