jason123:

@Beaf
The article below is an example of what I was saying. Are the Binis wrong? If they are, why did the supreme court give them the land?
Anyone can PASS ON an oral "detailed" history for generations. For example, the on-going controversy between Binis and Yorubas. Who are 'we' to say the Binis are right and Yorubas are wrong and vis-versa?

The above has nothing to do with matters at hand, lets not stray into emotional issues.

The reason we are having this argument is the absolutely ridiculous Itsekiri claim to being marginalised in Delta state, whereas the governor of the state is an Itsekiri man. Lets have that in mind.

The reason I brought the Bini into the argument is that, Ginuwa the founder of the Itsekiri kingdom was an Edo prince; they have his history, the itinerary of his travels when he left Benin, as well as the dates.
The most interesting aspect of their account is Ginuwa's itinerary.

[size=14pt]Intro to Ginuwa, founder of the Itsekiri kingdom[/size]

Some titbits to get us rolling. . .

"Prior to the advent of the Bini Ginuwa (i.e 1480), the territory now known as the Kingdom of Itsekiri or Iwere, was inhabited by three tribes, namely, the Ijaws, Sobos (Urhobo) and Mahins (Ilajes)
. . .
(The Sobos) occupied the hinterland, while the Ijaws occupied the coastline, and the Mahins (llajes) squatted on the sea-shore near the Benin River
. . .
the Mahins (Ilajes) hailed from Akoko and Ikale in the province of Ondo, Nigeria."
- History of Itsekiri, 1970, William Moore (an Itsekiri man)

Ginuwa was the eldest son of Oba Olua, but he was hated by the Bini's for his pride and meanness, so Oba Olua decided to send him away.

He had made arrangements in advance for Ijaw men to take Iginua and his retinue in their canoes to their destination

- A Short History of Benin, 1968, P. 21, Chief Dr. Egharevba.

Igbo migrated west across the Niger River it is not the other way around. Anioma and Anambra subgroups are not from the Bini empire and share no blood ties nor did they originate from there. The Igbo people's of Anambra existed prior to the Edo city states and migrated southward and westward.

No Igbo town was directly or indirectly or produced from Bini. If you wish to speak of Agbor, the people of Agbor and the Ikas are Igbos who
Migrated from east of the Niger and settled in what is today Delta State. Agbor does have significant Bini influence in that it bordered the extremes of the then Bini empire but it was not founded by an Edo or etc.
Words such as Oba, Obi etc does not necessarily mean that a kingdom came from the other. Certain languages are influenced by equally Significant neighbors and words/ideas are shared between the two. Such as Oseblua means virtually the same thing in Igbo and Edo (correct me if I'm wrong).

So please when speaking only speak about what you're sure of and of what concerns your people not mine. Thank you

odumchi:

Igbo migrated west across the Niger River it is not the other way around. Anioma and Anambra subgroups are not from the Bini empire and share no blood ties nor did they originate from there. The Igbo people's of Anambra existed prior to the Edo city states and migrated southward and westward.

No Igbo town was directly or indirectly or produced from Bini. If you wish to speak of Agbor, the people of Agbor and the Ikas are Igbos who
Migrated from east of the Niger and settled in what is today Delta State. Agbor does have significant Bini influence in that it bordered the extremes of the then Bini empire but it was not founded by an Edo or etc.
Words such as Oba, Obi etc does not necessarily mean that a kingdom came from the other. Certain languages are influenced by equally Significant neighbors and words/ideas are shared between the two. Such as Oseblua means virtually the same thing in Igbo and Edo (correct me if I'm wrong).

So please when speaking only speak about what you're sure of and of what concerns your people not mine. Thank you

Dude, buzz off. I have little time for emotional arguments they always lead to stup!dity:

Onitsha was known as Ado N'Idu by citizens who departed from the vicinity of the Kingdom of Benin near the far western portion of Igboland (near what is now Agbor), after a violent dispute with the Oba of Benin that can be tentatively dated to the early 1500s.[8] Traveling eastward through what is now Western Igboland (and various towns also called "Onitsha", for example Onicha-Ugbo, "farmland-Onitsha", the Onitsha, led by one CHIMA eventually crossed the Niger River and settled on the east bank in their current location

-Nnamdi Azikiwe, Fragments of Onitsha History. The Journal of Negro History (The Journal of Negro History, Vol. 15, No. 4) 15 (4): 474)

Beaf:

From the Isedani lineage of Kolokuma, led by Opumakuba and [size=13pt]Alagbariye (alias Kala-Beni)[/size], a migration to the eastern delta coast founded the Ibeni or Ibani clan now known as Bonny early in the 12/13th century.

What does the the part in bold mean?

What does Kala mean in Ijaw?

vicenzo:

i was hoping that this thread wil be educative,[b]with physics posting his half page post,[/b]and beaf defending his assertion,no such luck at all.

I'm here to find answers, not to debate merely based on what I knew prior to this thread.

odumchi:

Igbo migrated west across the Niger River it is not the other way around. Anioma and Anambra subgroups are not from the Bini empire and share no blood ties nor did they originate from there. The Igbo people's of Anambra existed prior to the Edo city states and migrated southward and westward.

No Igbo town was directly or indirectly or produced from Bini. If you wish to speak of Agbor, the people of Agbor and the Ikas are Igbos who
Migrated from east of the Niger and settled in what is today Delta State. Agbor does have significant Bini influence in that it bordered the extremes of the then Bini empire but it was not founded by an Edo or etc.
Words such as Oba, Obi etc does not necessarily mean that a kingdom came from the other. Certain languages are influenced by equally Significant neighbors and words/ideas are shared between the two. Such as Oseblua means virtually the same thing in Igbo and Edo (correct me if I'm wrong).

So please when speaking only speak about what you're sure of and of what concerns your people not mine. Thank you

Migrations can go both ways. Doesn't necessarily have to be a one way thing.

That said, I think there is evidence that the Anioma area is predominantly Igbo culturally and with a few exceptions (Oza nogogo, Alilehan, etc.), of mainly Igbo origin historically.

Beaf:

Dude, buzz off. I have little time for emotional arguments they always lead to stup!dity:

-Nnamdi Azikiwe, Fragments of Onitsha History. The Journal of Negro History (The Journal of Negro History, Vol. 15, No. 4) 15 (4): 474)

Whenever an Igbo man or woman is involved, their replies are automatically labelled "emotional" and "sentimental" regardless, am I right? Nothing in my post had a tinge of emotion not to talk of sentiment, but digress. My point to you is that you should never say things about a group or groups you are not familiar with (such as the Igbos). Your knowledge of ethnic and cultural history, based on what I've seen does not exceed Delta State.

PhysicsQED:


What does the the part in bold mean?

What does Kala mean in Ijaw?

I'm not familiar with Ijaw. Urhobo and Itsekiri are the two languages I'm familiar with in the Warri area.
I really don't have a clue about what Kala means.

odumchi:

Whenever an Igbo man or woman is involved, their replies are automatically labelled "emotional" and "sentimental" regardless, am I right? Nothing in my post had a tinge of emotion not to talk of sentiment, but digress. My point to you is that you should never say things about a group or groups you are not familiar with (such as the Igbos). Your knowledge of ethnic and cultural history, based on what I've seen does not exceed Delta State.

Are there no Igbo's in Delta state? Yet when I say you are emotional, you start arguing.

In fact, some of the Igbo's in Delta state have Urhobo/ Isoko ancestry (and vice-versa). I've also given you Onitsha history according to Zik and they are from Benin. So whats your point?

Dude, I'm not interested in any closed minded, emotional arguments.
Scram.

Beaf:

I'm not familiar with Ijaw. Urhobo and Itsekiri are the two languages I'm familiar with in the Warri area.
I really don't have a clue about what Kala means.

I was just wondering whether there was some deeper meaning behind it. I thought that beni might be bene (which apparently means water in Ijaw). But I"m not sure. And I still wouldn't know what Kala meant.

I read this same basic account elsewhere earlier:

http://www.ijawland.com/history-and-culture/190-ibani-bonny-a-opobo-ibe-.html

And I was curious about how Kala-Beni became Alagbariye or vice versa, what the name Kala-Beni meant in Ijaw.

PhysicsQED:

I was just wondering whether there was some deeper meaning behind it. I thought that beni might be bene (which apparently means water in Ijaw). But I"m not sure. And I still wouldn't know what Kala meant.

I read this same basic account elsewhere earlier:

http://www.ijawland.com/history-and-culture/190-ibani-bonny-a-opobo-ibe-.html

And I was curious about how Kala-Beni became Alagbariye or vice versa, what the name Kala-Beni meant in Ijaw.

No, I can't help with that. The area you are talking about is between Bayelsa and Rivers, perhaps we should rope in someone with some knowledge from the Ijaw side (like Ibime) to help with wider Ijaw questions.

Kala-Beni means Small Beni; Kala means Small.

Thanks.

If beni is interpreted as water (although that's probably incorrect), it could mean "small water" (little water). I'm really intrigued by the name, though and I would like to hear from an Ijaw how the name switched from Kala-Beni to Alagbariye or why Alabgariye had that nickname/alias.

No problem. Regarding the first part of your post (the "small water" interpretation), that holds for Central Delta Ijo, but for Eastern Ijo (Bonny, Opobo, etc.) water is "mingi" or "minji". So there is a some discrepancy regarding that name. Maybe Ibime or any other Ijo could come and clear that up, as well as the significance of the alias, though I've got my own thoughts on the name Kala-Beni.

PhysicsQED:

Thanks.

If beni is interpreted as water (although that's probably incorrect), it could mean "small water" (little water). I'm really intrigued by the name, though and I would like to hear from an Ijaw how the name switched from Kala-Beni to Alagbariye or why Alabgariye had that nickname/alias.

I'm inclined to think it means "small Bonny," but its just a guess.

Am so dumb on Niger Delta tribes cultures except Benin and Itshekiri

Maybe it means "small Bini" (Benin) maybe some of the ijo there are Migrants from Benin, maybe Bonny actually means Benin and got corrupted by ijo migrants and Portuguese and English translators.

Maybe they are just fishermen from various hinterland groups that chose to live close to their trade and developed a common loosely related lingua in the process.

BTW, These languages sound too similar to me, Ijaw, Igbo, Yoruba dialects( Ikale, Ilaje, Ijebu, Ondo, Akoko, Irele) Itshekiri, Urhobo, Isoko, Ishan, Owan, Edo, Lukumi, Etsako, Igbira. They all sound the same 

Maybe they are all from the same place: Benin, Yoruba, Igbo, Itshekiri, Urhobo, ijo, Ilaje, Akoko, Igbira e.t.c

okada_man:

Maybe it means "small Bini" (Benin) maybe some of the ijo there are Migrants from Benin, maybe Bonny actually means Benin and got corrupted by ijo migrants and Portuguese and English translators.

Maybe they are just fishermen from various hinterland groups that chose to live close to their trade and developed a common loosely related lingua in the process.

BTW, These languages sound too similar to me, Ijaw, Igbo, Yoruba dialects( Ikale, Ilaje, Ijebu, Ondo, Akoko, Irele) Itshekiri, Urhobo, Isoko, Ishan, Owan, Edo, Lukumi, Etsako, Igbira. They all sound the same 

Maybe they are all from the same place: Benin, Yoruba, Igbo, Itshekiri, Urhobo, ijo, Ilaje, Akoko, Igbira e.t.c

Isoko and Urhobo are basically Edo's (same goes for Ishan, Owan, Edo, Etsako, Akoko etc).
Edo, Igbo, Ijaw, Yoruba all have a common root. They all started out as a single language that branched out.

Lukumi are from Cuba. No?

seanet02:

Am so dumb on Niger Delta tribes ethnic groups cultures except Benin Edo and Itshekiri Itsekiri

You're so dumb about everything, bro.

Beaf:

Isoko and Urhobo are basically Edo's (same goes for Ishan, Owan, Edo, Etsako, Akoko etc).
Edo, Igbo, Ijaw, Yoruba all have a common root. They all started out as a single language that branched out.

My thoughts too.

Lukumi are from Cuba. No?

Is half of Cuba not from Nigeria  sef? 

I once read this article by Aluko. I suspect the Lukumi are from Nigeria, Igbo or Yoruba

We are probably just the same people fighting ourselves, down south especially.

A Yoruba enclave in the heart of Igboland * Story of Ugbodu, others in Delta State
Written by Banji Aluko
Sunday, October 24, 2010


Deep in the heart of the Igbo-speaking people in Aniocha North Local Government Area of Delta State are Ugbodu and three other communities where Oluku mi, a derivative of Yoruba language, is the language of the people. BANJI ALUKO, who visited the communities, examines how close Oluku mi actually is to the Yoruba language and traces how the people came about the language.


Oloza's palace

HELLO, this writer said, while knocking at the door, and a young lady, emerging from the building, replied, ta ni yen? When the writer heard the reply, he taught it was a mere coincidence or that his ears were deceiving him. Of course, he had every reason to be surprised since he was not anywhere near the Yoruba enclave where such a reply can only be anticipated. After all, he was more than 100 kilometres away from the nearest Yoruba community; he was in Ugbodu, a town in Aniocha North Local government Area of Delta State.


While trying to decipher why the lady gave such a reply, what further followed put the writer in a more confused position. A girl of about five appeared and said, "mo fe ra biscuit." Perhaps, the people are part of the Yoruba community living in the town, the writer guessed as he tried to find out from the lady.


"Are you a Yoruba woman; what is the meaning of ta ni yen?" The writer asked the questions at once. Reluctantly, she answered, "I am not Yoruba o, I am just speaking my language." Apparently, she was not unaware of the similarity between her language and Yoruba language. The lady refused to entertain any further question about her language and asked him to go to the king's palace or to the elders if he wanted to know more about the language.


At the palace, the elders still would not talk about the similarity between their language and Yoruba. They asked the writer to wait for the arrival of the king, who they said can only speak on the people, their language and their history.


The period of waiting for the king afforded one time to listen to the conversation and the discovery was nonetheless remarkable. Following closely the conversation between some elderly men and with a deep knowledge of Yoruba, one could establish a nexus between their speech and actions. In fact, some words and expressions could be understood.


Following their conversation with rapt attention, expressions such as Gbemu wa-bring palm wine, me wa nani-I didn't come yesterday, me ri e-I didn't see you, mu beer oka wa-bring one beer etc could be heard, albeit with an intonation slightly different from that of the Yorubas.


Seeing the desire of this writer to follow their talk, one man finally volunteered to explain the similarity between their language and Yoruba. "I believe you are a Yoruba man," he said. He continued: "We are Oluku mi speakers but we speak a language that is very similar to Yoruba." This he demonstrated by pointing out some words and expressions in their language (Oluku mi) which denote the same meanings as Yoruba.


He gave some examples such as ita-pepper, ogede lila-plantain, ogede keke-banana; ku wu se-what are you doing; ule house; osa - market; oma-child; o dowuo-see you tomorrow, e bo-welcome. After explaining some similarities between the languages, he still refused to talk about how the people of Ugbodu, in the middle of other Igbo speaking neighbours, came about Oluku mi. Like others, he maintained that only the traditional ruler of the town can speak about how Oluku mi became their language.


But after waiting endlessly for the king, his brother, Prince Adebowale Ochei, who later arrived the scene, volunteered to speak on behalf of the king, H.R.M. Ayo Isinyemeze, the Oloza (Obi) of Ugbodu. According to him, history gave it that the Ugbodu Oluku mi speaking people migrated from Owo/Akure axis in the present Ondo State between 9th and 11th century AD to settle down in Benin during the reign of King Ogiso of Benin.


He continued: "At this period in the history of the Benin Kingdom, the most neglected of the wife of the Ogiso gave birth to the heir apparent to the throne. After the woman gave birth to the child, a male, the nobles consulted the oracle and said that the oracle told them that the child should be killed for peace to reign in Benin Kingdom. At the end, the child was not killed as it was said that the child was too handsome to be killed, so a fowl was killed in his place."


According to Ochei, this was the reason the Ugbodu people left Benin. "They felt that if a crown prince could be ordered for execution just like that, they could do worse things to strangers in their midst. As a result, they left Benin and came to Ewohimi, an Ishan speaking community in Edo State. Due to intra-tribal wars, they later left the place to settle down here in Ugbodu which is a shortened form of Ugbodumila, which means bush saved me in English Language."


He further pointed out differences between Oluku mi and Yoruba. He said one notable difference is the changing of letter "j" in Yoruba words to "s" in Oluku mi as seen in words like oloja or oja which are rendered as olosa or osa and joko as soko.


With the movement of the people was the consequent change in their language as shown in their names. According to records compiled by Prince Humphrey Ojeabu Ochei, the immediate Olihen of Ugbodu, the first six Olozas bore Yoruba names namely Adeola, Aderemi, Ariyo, Odofin, Adetunji and Oyetunde. These early kings bore typical Yoruba names years and decades after the establishment of the Ugbodu Kingdom.


As the people gradually lost contact with their kinsmen back home, they began to gravitate towards the Benin and Edo communities. The resulting acculturative process gradually led to the adoption of Edo names among the people. Hence names such as Ogbomon, Ozolua, Izebuwa, Ogbelaka, Izedonwen, Osakpolor, Esigie Igbinadolor, Osaloua, Osamewamen and Ebor emerged as Olozas.


Since Ugbodu is surrounded by the Igbo-speaking Aniomas, it did not take much time before the Igbo Language started to interfere greatly on the people's language. Accordingly, Igbo influence steadily and progressively made what has now become permanent inroad and considerable impact on the socio-cultural life as well as linguistic orientation of the Ugbodu people. With this, the Edo influence began to wane, resulting in the adoption of Igbo names in preference to Edo names. Thus from the middle of the 19th century, the general shift was from Edo to Igbo names. This can be seen in the names of Olozas, who ruled between the middle of the 19th century and late 20th century such as Dike, Ochei, Ezenweani and Isinyemeze.


Investigations conducted revealed that Ugbodu is not the only community where Oluku mi is spoken in Aniocha North Local Government as the language is also spoken in Ukwu-Nzu (Eko Efun), Ubulubu and Ogodo.


At Ukwu-Nzu, only few kilometres away from Ugbodu, the language is not also different. Although, the people are less emphatic about their history, nonetheless, the similarity between their language and Yoruba is evident in their names and greetings. "Oju e ma won ke," meaning your face is scarce in Yoruba, was what a man said to his friend he accosted on the road. When Sunday Tribune approached the man, who gave his name as Ayo Oke, he shed light on his language and provided more examples between Oluku mi and Yoruba Language.


He said that "instead of saying e kaabo, we say e bo, meaning welcome and wa ni we yi, meaning come here;" He also gave example of words which virtually have the same meanings as the Yoruba language. Some of these include obe-stew; oni-today; ola-tomorrow; otunla-next tomorrow etc.


Another elder in the town, who spoke with Sunday Tribune, said that the name of Ukwu-Nzu before the Igbo Language "infiltrated" their language was Eko Efun (efun means chalk in Yoruba Language). He also attributed the efun in the name of their town to the rich prescence of white chalk in the town which he said the community was richly blessed with.


Presently, the biggest challenge for the people of Ugbodu and other Oluku mi-speaking communities is how to protect their language and culture in general. According to a native of Ugbodu, "the elders are more connected to the original Olukumi language than the youth. In fact, we have lost the real Oluku mi and what we have now is an Oluku mi that has been greatly altered by Igbo language. Most of the people who can really speak the language right now are the elders. Ordinarily, the real Oluku mi is like the Yoruba that is spoken in Owo in Ondo State. Someone from that place is expected to understand the language perfectly but right now someone from Owo might not be able to understand more than 50 per cent of our language. This language may die if care is not taken," he said.


Another factor that also contributed to the decline of Olukumi, according to findings, is that there was a time in the past when an understanding of the Edo or Igbo language, was considered as a status symbol. According to an elder in the town, "An Oluku mi who spoke the two languages then was considered superior to others because it meant that he had travelled wide. This was the inferiority complex our people unwittingly created for themselves which we are trying to correct now."


In protecting their language which is gradually being threatened, a revival process has been started. Part of this is that some of them now choose to give their children Oluku mi names and to sing and say prayers in Oluku mi. In some cases, some radical reformers and revivalists changed the names given to them by their parents from Igbo to Olukumi. The climax of the restoration process of their linguistic ethos and identity was the christening of the incumbent Oloza with an Olukumi name, Ayo.


Reacting to efforts aimed at protecting Oluku mi, Prince Adebowale said, "I am an Oluku mi man and I am proud of my language. I am not happy that Igbo language is interfering with our language. We are trying our best to correct the situation and part of that is what my brother (the Oloza) is doing by organising an Oluku mi reciting competition. We want to know the people who can speak the real Oluku mi without mixing it with Igbo or English." As laudable as the task of protecting Oluku mi by the people of Ugbodu(mila) is, only time will tell how far they can go.


http://odili.net/news/source/2010/oct/24/609.html

okada_man:

Maybe it means "small Bini" (Benin) maybe some of the ijo there are Migrants from Benin, maybe Bonny actually means Benin and got corrupted by ijo migrants and Portuguese and English translators.

I had thought about that, but the way Benin is pronounced doesn't really drop the n. Anyway, they (Ijaws) didn't claim that that particular individual (Alagbariye) came from Benin.

BTW, These languages sound too similar to me, Ijaw, Igbo, Yoruba dialects( Ikale, Ilaje, Ijebu, Ondo, Akoko, Irele) Itshekiri, Urhobo, Isoko, Ishan, Owan, Edo, Lukumi, Etsako, Igbira. They all sound the same 

Maybe they are all from the same place: Benin, Yoruba, Igbo, Itshekiri, Urhobo, ijo, Ilaje, Akoko, Igbira e.t.c

I actually don't think those languages all sound very similar, but they are part of the same larger language family.

Can those Olukimi ppl pack their belongings and head back to Ondo state?

Do any of these non-Ijaw groups acknowledge being given land by the Ijaw?

If so, when do they claim it happened, and where do they claim to have migrated from?

On my side of the ND, no group I know of acknowledges Ijo giving anyone land. In fact traditions are clear that the groups were already settled before any Ijo moved in.

I have one serious question though that I'm hoping Physics or anyone capable could answer. A number of people's traditions claim migrating from Benin/Edo, and many of them claim so right around the same time. What I want to know is, what is the time frame that these claimed migrations happened. Which centuries?

Every ethnic group in the vicinity of Warri was given land by the Ijaws, namely the Oporoza family from Gbaramatu. I am waiting for anybody to dispute this.

ChinenyeN:

I have one serious question though that I'm hoping Physics or anyone capable could answer. A number of people's traditions claim migrating from Benin/Edo, and many of them claim so right around the same time. What I want to know is, what is the time frame that these claimed migrations happened. Which centuries?

For the Western ND, that task is quite simple.

The Edo annals are quite detailed about when outward migrations took place and where they went. That is the first place to look.
The Ijaws also have detailed histories of who came in and where they came from. An accurate picture can be built up by cross checking Edo and Ijaw annals, they both agree quite well, except for smaller details which one side might be aware of and the other not.

Of course, we would need to go to local traditional authorities to obtain the tiniest details of our histories. However due to political colourations, these tiny details might be wrong or even 100% concocted (as will be proven if the challenge in my last post is taken up). I've already made some telling quotes on this thread here, https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-758155.96.html#msg9149559

How does this "Ijaw" giving land jibe with them being fishermen in ancient days? How could they have given away land that they weren't even using and was probably not even populated by them?

Or were they also settled farmers or something too back in the day?

Even the Ijo gave land to the rest of Nigeria sef, what on earth are they going to do about it? I beg make them stay put for hear something else.

ekt_bear:

Or were they also settled farmers or something too back in the day?

Traditions are pretty clear on Ijo settlements. Not to say they never farmed though. They did, but compared to traditional settlements it is almost negligible.

WOW!
Big ups to Bear who proved his FOES wrong by providing FACTS. Yet they couldn't even concede to their defeat but simple shy away.

Bear is not even Ijaw yet he knows these truths about Ijaws. May God the father of truth bless you!

Anyway, watch out for my conprehensive exposé on how Ijaws accomodated foreign tribes (essentially giving them land- since thats the context used here). Ijaws also founded somes towns, clans and kingdoms of people that are today seen as non-Ijaws.

For now, just be at peace.
SHALLOM!