honesttalk21:
Islam recognizes Zakaria as a prophet and it seems there are narrations of 2 of them in the Bible. Howbeit in the book of Ezekiel 45
1.When you allot the land as an inheritance, you are to present to the Lord a portion of the land as a sacred district, 25,000 cubits long and 20,000 cubits wide; the entire area will be holy.
2 Of this, a section 500 cubits square is to be for the sanctuary, with 50 cubits around it for open land.
3 In the sacred district, measure off a section 25,000 cubits long and 10,000 cubits wide. In it will be the sanctuary, the Most Holy Place.
4 It will be the sacred portion of the land for the priests, who minister in the sanctuary and who draw near to minister before the Lord. It will be a place for their houses as well as a holy place for the sanctuary.

1. Islam recognise Zachariah as prophet But he isn't. He is just a Priest. Why is he a prophet? You don't know, do you?

What you read in Ezekiel 45 describes the Quarters for the Priests NOT the temple. No one lives in the Temple of Jerusalem.

honesttalk21:

Women not being permitted explains why Mary's mother preferred a boy child.

Permit my including the views of the role religion has played in patriarchy.

Going on, according to Jewish religious law, women were allowed in every area of the Temple precincts in which men were allowed. The Mishnah specifies areas within the Temple that non-priests were not allowed to enter, but it does not differentiate between men and women.

More so Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the LORD, as it is written in the LORD’s Torah: “Every first-born male is sanctified to the LORD as stated in Luke 2:22-23

What is your evidence that Mary's mother preferred a boy than a girl?
Please site it according to Islam!

Ok

I replied with emboldened with regards to your point 2. Is the book of Ezekiel 45 wrong?[quote author=TenQ post=125089986]
1. Islam recognise Zachariah as prophet But he isn't. He is just a Priest. Why is he a prophet? You don't know, do you?

What you read in Ezekiel 45 describes the Quarters for the Priests NOT the temple. No one lives in the Temple of Jerusalem.

4. It shall be the holy portion of the land. It shall be for the priests, who minister in the sanctuary and approach the LORD to minister to him, and it shall be a place for their houses and a holy place for the sanctuary.


What is your evidence that Mary's mother preferred a boy than a girl?

3:35. (Remember) when the wife of `Imran said: “O my Lord! I have vowed to You what is in my womb to be dedicated for Your services, so accept this from me. Verily, You are the All-Hearer, the All-Knowing.
36. Then when she gave birth to her, she said: “O my Lord! I have given birth to a female [/b]child, ـ and Allah knew better what she bore, ـ “[b]And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Maryam, and I seek refuge with You for her and for her offspring from Shaytan, the outcast

honesttalk21:
Accepting that Anna was barring, do you however identify who her husband was?

The name of her husband wasn't mentioned as he died more than 60 years before the time in question.

Luk 2:36-37:
"And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day."

honesttalk21:

Could you tell me who is documented as the mother of Mary?

Genealogy amongst the Jews is through patriarchal line. Therefore the mother of Mary wasn't mentioned but her Father was mentioned

honesttalk21:

Then about Psalm 110:1 may be subject for review. This is to understand how the old testament son of man is referred to as either Adonai or Adoni which are names used with Yahweh for God.

It calls for some concern really.
The priests not asking Jesus further questions could be that they had concluded either positively or negatively about him.

Did the Jewish leaders not accuse Jesus of blasphemy in Matthew 26:57-68

1. The Jews did not recognise Jesus as the Messiah
2. The Jews know that the Messiah would be a descendant of David
3. Jesus asked the Jews a technical Question :
If the Messiah was the Son of David, why then does David call Him Lord?

This Question thy couldn't answer! How could they ask further questions when the only one he asked them they couldn't answer.
Mat 22:46:
"And no man was able to answer him a word, neither dared any man from that day forth ask him any more questions."


Yes, Jesus was the Messiah : as the Word of God, David called Him LORD. But in His Humanity, he is the Son of David.

honesttalk21:
Eleazar (Mt 1:15) had two children, the one Mathan (Mt 1:15), and the
other Jotham. Joseph is descended from Mathan and Mary from Jotham.
Eleazar’s son Mathan begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Joseph. And Eleazar’s
son Jotham begot Zadoq, and Zadoq begot Mary by his wife Dina, who is
the sister of Elisabeth, the wife of Zechariah. For this reason it is written
that the Angel said to Mary, «Behold, Elisabeth your relative has con-
ceived» (Lk 1:36) — that is, the sister of your mother. Now Mary from her
father’s side was from the tribe of Judah, but from her mother’s side, from
the tribe of Levi.

Mary, of course, does not feature at all in the genealogies given in Mat-
thew 1 and Luke 3. Earlier commentators were more interested in providing
explanations for the apparent contradictions between the two lists (exempli-
fied by Joseph’s father being Jacob in Matthew and Eli in Luke).

Wrong sir!
Can you please show me how Mary was a descendant of Jotham?

Can you show me how Zadoq is the Father of Mary and Dina is the Mother of Mary?


Mathew gave the Legal genealogy of Jesus through Joseph his supposed Father. Joseph was from the tribe of Judah.
Mat 1:16:
"And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."
The Father of Joseph was Jacob




Luke gave the biological genealogy of Jesus through Mary with Joseph being the Son-in-Law to Heli the Father of Mary. Mary was also from the tribe of Judah.

Luk 3:23:
"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being as was supposed the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

honesttalk21:
I can only refer you to Q5:118 where Jesus is prophesied to say in response to questions Allah will ask him
If You punish them, they belong to You after all.But if You forgive them, You are surely the Almighty, All-Wise.

You did not answer the questions

I said: If this is the case
1. The Sabians worship the stars and constellations, why would they enter Paradise?

2. We Christians believe that God is Trinity, why would we enter Paradise?

3. I don't know the Offence of the Jews, why would they enter Paradise?


A. Jesus could not be prophesied to say anything in Quran 5:118 because the Qur'an was written 700 years after the death and Resurrection of Jesus.
B. Jesus was not responding to the Jews, Sabians and Christians I Qur'an 5:118, was He?

honesttalk21:
22:17 Verily, those who believe (in Allah and in His Messenger Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and the Sabians [wa’l-sabi-in], and the Christians, and the Majus, and those who worship others besides Allah; truly, Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Verily, Allah is over all things a Witness

No one is exempt from judgement. I pray Allah grants me mercy in his judgement and all that truly believe in him.

Is this a contradiction?

satmaniac:


Muslim clerics said this and muslim clerics said that. You amuse me ooo. You are the one that said the prophet even forbade the writing of Hadith and here you are quoting the words of those who insist on following what does not have the approval of God and his messenger, in order to make sure I agree with you that they are worth following.
Look what you should know is that in any ideology be it secular or theological, people tend to always corrupt and change it to fit their prejudices. It happened with the children of Israel, especially when Moses left them to be with God almighty, it take them just forty days to introduce worshipping of the calf. You can imagine what will happened after a long period of time. It happened with the Christian so much that a convention was held to determine what the right doctrines are. Yes I am talking about the nicene convention. It happened with the Muslim after the prophet was gone too. Thus, you have the Hadiths and most of the things that were foreign to Quran. It is nothing new. But what is important is God truth is there for everyone who care to find out in all of these scriptures that were written down. For example, an honest reading of the bible will tell you that Jesus Christ is not a God and also the term son of God was not literal.
You said:
But I think your argument should be applicable to the Qur'an too. Why should we trust the RECITATION of Hafs when we have written Qur'an dating far back in time.

This shows you are not paying attention to the point I have been making. You just wish to force Hadith down my throat. When did I say I trust either of the Hadith. I am just pointing that for you to see them as the fabrication that they are. And no there is no how you are going to apply the argument to the Quran. The Quran was a speech from God to the prophet and as soon as it was revealed it got written down, with the prophet permission, unlike the hadith nobody ever authorised it. So if you are being sincere there should be no copy of Hadith then. Mind you the earliest collection of Hadith you see me referring to, were even collected long after the prophet was gone and like I said most of the Hadith did not have the prophet name in them. So how do you compare the two?
By written Quran written way back, you mean that one at Birmingham right? Because that is the oldest Quran so far? I will want you to point the differences between that Quran and the hafs Quran?

I am not forcing down the Hadiths down your throat. I know that some Muslims call themselves Qur'an-Only-Muslims and in dealing with them, I want to use just the Qur'an only
BUT
1. I expect that all their judgement would be from the Literal interpretation of the Qur'an.
2. I also want them to know that it is hypocritical of them to follow the teachings of the hadiths while condemning them at the same time.
3. I want them to note that (because they are minorities with this view), casting away such a huge volume of hadith irrespective of their grade is a proof that the vast majority of Muslims who wrote or narrated or transmitted the hadiths are untrustworthy and fraudulent liars.
4. One of your arguments was that the hadiths were compiled much later: true. But the Recitation of Hafs too was a Recitation before it was written. If the memory of those who document the hadiths could be questioned, the memory of those of recite the Qur'an should also be questioned

I don't ask you to adopt the Hadiths by force.

By the way,
1. Do you subscribe to the Sira and Tafsir?

honesttalk21:
I replied with emboldened with regards to your point 2. Is the book of Ezekiel 45 wrong?

3:35. (Remember) when the wife of `Imran said: “O my Lord! I have vowed to You what is in my womb to be dedicated for Your services, so accept this from me. Verily, You are the All-Hearer, the All-Knowing.
36. Then when she gave birth to her, she said: “O my Lord! I have given birth to a female [/b]child, ـ and Allah knew better what she bore, ـ “[b]And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Maryam, and I seek refuge with You for her and for her offspring from Shaytan, the outcast

This is no evidence my dear.

This was written 700 years after the event in Question had been finalised. How can it be called evidence?

Can you take what I write against Islam and Mohammed as EVIDENCE?
I can only support my writings with appropriate evidence not the other way round

Genealogy is given by the paternal side however the mother of John the Baptist is known as Elizabeth, Bethsheba the mother of Solomon, Hannah the mother of Samuel, Jochebed the Mother of Moses, is it not strange that the name of an important figure like Mary wouldn't be mentioned even if lineage is giving by name of the father.

I found on gotquestions that The Bible does not mention King David’s mother by name but from Jewish legend she is named as Nitzevet, but there is no biblical confirmation of that name. Now it is obviously clear where our disagreement seems to stem from.
The book is an apocryphal Gospel of James which states that Mary was the daughter of Joachim and Anne. Before Mary's conception, Anne had been barren and was far advanced in years.

Definitely we were speaking of separate Annes. The parents of Mary are even reverred as being Saints Ann and Joachim.

Are we to call the Apocryphal the equivalents of hadith in Christianity or because there have been 7 canonifications of the Bible this has been prevented?

Furthermore you have not said anything on the established fact that there are/were living quarters in the Jewish temples?

Did you not ask for evidence from the Quran?

TenQ:

This is no evidence my dear.

This was written 700 years after the event in Question had been finalised. How can it be called evidence?

Can you take what I write against Islam and Mohammed as EVIDENCE?
I can only support my writings with appropriate evidence not the other way round

I guess we'll continue our discussions on another day.

No. Is it not essentially stating that everyone will be judged. How else do you expect the all Just to give justice?

TenQ:

Is this a contradiction?

honesttalk21:
Genealogy is given by the paternal side however the mother of John the Baptist is known as Elizabeth, Bethsheba the mother of Solomon, Hannah the mother of Samuel, Jochebed the Mother of Moses, is it not strange that the name of an important figure like Mary wouldn't be mentioned even if lineage is giving by name of the father.

I found on gotquestions that The Bible does not mention King David’s mother by name but from Jewish legend she is named as Nitzevet, but there is no biblical confirmation of that name. Now it is obviously clear where our disagreement seems to stem from.
The book is an apocryphal Gospel of James which states that Mary was the daughter of Joachim and Anne. Before Mary's conception, Anne had been barren and was far advanced in years.

Definitely we were speaking of separate Annes. The parents of Mary are even reverred as being Saints Ann and Joachim.

Are we to call the Apocryphal the equivalents of hadith in Christianity or because there have been 7 canonifications of the Bible this has been prevented?

Are you saying that I am free to use books by the heretical Ahmadiya or the Shia Muslims for you and you will accept that it represents Islam?

Do you subscribe to the books and doctrines of the Ismailis or the Nusayris (Alawites) or the Murji'ites ?

If you don't, why do you expect me to adopt your apocryphal Gospel of James?

If the parents of Mary were referred to as saints in the book, it is a glaring proof that they were very recent book far away from the time of the apostles. Why?
Mary was just an ordinary disciple and very ordinary even in Jewish standard of those days. The book was trying hard to venerate Mary.

Interesting standards won't you say? Isn't David allegedly giving prophesy about Jesus more likely after judgement in paradise. The verses from 5:116 are a discussion on judgement day. That will be about the trinitarian belief of Christians, reverrence of Mary by the Catholics or is it Jews. You must have come across Arianism in Christianity.

Do you think all the Sabians equally worshipped the stars?

I don't know in full detail where the almighty finds me wanting let alone another person.
Allah will judge by himself and no one will on his behalf on judgement day and he has the final say on who enters paradise. Who can challenge him if he pardons or punishes anyone?

TenQ:

You did not answer the questions

I said: If this is the case
1. The Sabians worship the stars and constellations, why would they enter Paradise?

2. We Christians believe that God is Trinity, why would we enter Paradise?

3. I don't know the Offence of the Jews, why would they enter Paradise?


A. Jesus could not be prophesied to say anything in Quran 5:118 because the Qur'an was written 700 years after the death and Resurrection of Jesus.
B. Jesus was not responding to the Jews, Sabians and Christians I Qur'an 5:118, was He?

honesttalk21:
No. Is it not essentially stating that everyone will be judged. How else do you expect the all Just to give justice?

One verse says everyone will be judged
The other verse say Jews, Christians and Sabians will enter Paradise.

It didn't say
Some of the Jews or
Some of the Christians or
Some of the Sabians

Allah is precise in speech isn't he?

If Allah is precise, then it is a contradiction.

As written in
THE GENEALOGY OF THE VIRGIN MARY[b]
IN SINAI SYR. 16
Jotham begot Zadoq, and Zadoq begot Mary by his wife Dina, who is the sister of Elisabeth, the wife of Zechariah. For this reason it is written that the Angel said to Mary, «Behold, Elisabeth your relative has conceived» (Lk 1:36) — that is, the sister of your mother.

TenQ:

Wrong sir!
Can you please show me how Mary was a descendant of Jotham?

Can you show me how Zadoq is the Father of Mary and Dina is the Mother of Mary?


Mathew gave the Legal genealogy of Jesus through Joseph his supposed Father. Joseph was from the tribe of Judah.
Mat 1:16:
"And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."
The Father of Joseph was Jacob




Luke gave the biological genealogy of Jesus through Mary with Joseph being the Son-in-Law to Heli the Father of Mary. Mary was also from the tribe of Judah.

Luk 3:23:
"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being as was supposed the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,"

honesttalk21:
Interesting standards won't you say? Isn't David allegedly giving prophesy about Jesus more likely after judgement in paradise. The verses from 5:116 are a discussion on judgement day. That will be about the trinitarian belief of Christians, reverrence of Mary by the Catholics or is it Jews. You must have come across Arianism in Christianity.

Do you think all the Sabians equally worshipped the stars?

I don't know in full detail where the almighty finds me wanting let alone another person.
Allah will judge by himself and no one will on his behalf on judgement day and he has the final say on who enters paradise. Who can challenge him if he pardons or punishes anyone?

David said the prophecy of the Messiah 1700 years before Jesus. He was speaking of the future and not the past, hence a prophecy.


The problem is that both the author of the Qur'an and Mohammed are confused about the Trinity.

When Jubril became a perfect man, did he stop being an angel?
Is an Angel a man?

1. The Qur'an say that we Christians say that Allah is the Messiah : is this true or false?
If Alkah is the Messiah, who then are the Trinity according to the Qur'an?

2. Again, Allah says he asked Jesus if he told his people to make Himself, His Mother as partner with Allah?

Which of these is the doctrine of Trinity?

Is the Quran not confused?

honesttalk21:
As written in
THE GENEALOGY OF THE VIRGIN MARY[b]
IN SINAI SYR. 16
Jotham begot Zadoq, and Zadoq begot Mary by his wife Dina, who is the sister of Elisabeth, the wife of Zechariah. For this reason it is written that the Angel said to Mary, «Behold, Elisabeth your relative has conceived» (Lk 1:36) — that is, the sister of your mother.

Is this True according to Islam?

honesttalk21:
I guess we'll continue our discussions on another day.

No problem sir.

Have a good night rest

David's prophecy of 1700 years including the almighty God (Adoni) and Son of God (Adonai) sitting side by side and David reverencing them? I don't understand where this has happened though I recall reference to spirit. Have you seen a spirit before?

Where is it stated in the Quran that Jibril came down as a man? How many people saw him and if they did was he ever said to have eaten, relieved himself or slept as a human would?

1. Do you deny referring to Jesus as God?
The Quran doesn't explicitly define trinity but
admonishes in 4:171 ........ and do not speak of a ‘Trinity’—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.
(Inferred that Jesus is part of the claimed trinity)

5:72 Those who say, “God is the Messiah, son of Mary,” have defied God. The Messiah himself said; “Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.” If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers
5:73 Those who said: 'Allah is one of the Three', certainly they disbelieved, ........
5:116 And when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ? .....
(It is countered by Catholics that they don't worship Mary but they pray to Mary and some lay the excuse that Jesus loved and honored his mother, and so they too, love and honor her) How much interaction between Jesus and Mary is documented in the Bible. Though I haven't read the Catholic bible before. if they pray to her doesn't that make her like God. They however call her mother of God but Allah begets not nor was he begotten.
19:88 They say: “(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!” Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous.

Furthermore in Jewish culture, a Davidic King would have his mother as Queen rather than his wife, because he rarely had one wife, but many wives. Sharing power with many wives would be much too difficult, but he had only one mother and she was given the title of Queen.

Almost every time a new king is introduced in 1 and 2 Kings, the king’s mother is mentioned. She was a member of the royal court, wore a crown, sat on a throne, and shared in the king’s reign (2 Kings 24:12, 15; Jer. 13:18–20).
She acted as counselor to her son (Prov. 31), an advocate of the people, and as an intercessor for the citizens of the kingdom (1 Kings 2:17–20). Since Jesus is a King based on the order of David, it makes sense that His mother would be called Queen.
REV.12:1
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
And then to specifically designate who this woman is,
REV12:5
She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but..

You won't know what all past and present groups of Christians has worshipped and perhaps since the early centuries the Arian Christians have been against the concept of trinity.

TenQ:

David said the prophecy of the Messiah 1700 years before Jesus. He was speaking of the future and not the past, hence a prophecy.



The problem is that both the author of the Qur'an and Mohammed are confused about the Trinity.

When Jubril became a perfect man, did he stop being an angel?
Is an Angel a man?

1. The Qur'an say that we Christians say that Allah is the Messiah : is this true or false?
If Alkah is the Messiah, who then are the Trinity according to the Qur'an?

2. Again, Allah says he asked Jesus if he told his people to make Himself, His Mother as partner with Allah?

Which of these is the doctrine of Trinity?

Is the Quran not confused?

The stand of Islam is clearly stated in the Quran. I am looking from within your books and authentic history for proof.

TenQ:

Is this True according to Islam?

The honoring of Mary as the Mother of God can be traced back to the Council of Ephesus in 431. By the 7th century, January 1st was observedas a celebration of the Maternity of the Blessed Virgin Mary. In the 13th century, the Feast of the Circumcision of Christ had come to replace the feast honoring Mary. However, in 1751, Pope Benedict XIV allowed Portugal’s churches to devote a feast to Mary on the first Sunday in May. This was because of a push in Portugal for an official feast day celebrating Mary’s divine maternity. Eventually, the feast was expanded to include other countries.

Mary, the New Testament Ark of the Covenant

Revelation 11:19-12:1:Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Mary's body is in heaven

Revelation 12:1:And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Mary is Queen of Heaven

Revelation 12:1:And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Obtained from Catholic bible 101

honesttalk21:
David's prophecy of 1700 years including the almighty God (Adoni) and Son of God (Adonai) sitting side by side and David reverencing them? I don't understand where this has happened though I recall reference to spirit. Have you seen a spirit before?

Where is it stated in the Quran that Jibril came down as a man? How many people saw him and if they did was he ever said to have eaten, relieved himself or slept as a human would?

[b]Qur'an 19:18
Then We sent to her Our angel, ˹Gabriel,˺ appearing before her as a man, perfectly formed.[/b]

Sahih al-Bukhari 50

Sahih al-Bukhari 4777

honesttalk21:

1. Do you deny referring to Jesus as God?
The Quran doesn't explicitly define trinity but
admonishes in 4:171 ........ and do not speak of a ‘Trinity’—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.
(Inferred that Jesus is part of the claimed trinity)

5:72 Those who say, “God is the Messiah, son of Mary,” have defied God. The Messiah himself said; “Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.” If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers
5:73 Those who said: 'Allah is one of the Three', certainly they disbelieved, ........
5:116 And when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ? .....
(It is countered by Catholics that they don't worship Mary but they pray to Mary and some lay the excuse that Jesus loved and honored his mother, and so they too, love and honor her) How much interaction between Jesus and Mary is documented in the Bible. Though I haven't read the Catholic bible before. if they pray to her doesn't that make her like God. They however call her mother of God but Allah begets not nor was he begotten.
19:88 They say: “(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!” Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous.

How can you tell me to do that which you don't even understand and mixup.
What is Trinity according to Islam: you are confused about it at best.

honesttalk21:

Furthermore in Jewish culture, a Davidic King would have his mother as Queen rather than his wife, because he rarely had one wife, but many wives. Sharing power with many wives would be much too difficult, but he had only one mother and she was given the title of Queen.

Almost every time a new king is introduced in 1 and 2 Kings, the king’s mother is mentioned. She was a member of the royal court, wore a crown, sat on a throne, and shared in the king’s reign (2 Kings 24:12, 15; Jer. 13:18–20).
She acted as counselor to her son (Prov. 31), an advocate of the people, and as an intercessor for the citizens of the kingdom (1 Kings 2:17–20). Since Jesus is a King based on the order of David, it makes sense that His mother would be called Queen.

Half knowledge kills is the only response I have for you here. I wish you read all the scripture post you wrote up here and ask questions according to the instruction of Allah if you don't understand anything.
So the Jews have the post of the Queen!?
The Queen-mother act as counsellor to her son!?
A member of the royal courts!?

honesttalk21:

REV.12:1
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
And then to specifically designate who this woman is,
REV12:5
She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but..

You won't know what all past and present groups of Christians has worshipped and perhaps since the early centuries the Arian Christians have been against the concept of trinity.

Who is this woman?
You think she is Mary!?

The book of Revelation is symbolic and the woman described in the passage you mentioned is interpreted as a symbol rather than a specific historical or individual figure.

The Woman is the Nation of Israel with the 12 Tribes as stars and her Son as the Messiah. The Dragon is satan.
The woman fled to the wilderness (challenging times) where she is protected in isolation by God Himself for a long time.

Rev 12:4-6:
"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up to God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score days."

honesttalk21:
The stand of Islam is clearly stated in the Quran. I am looking from within your books and authentic history for proof.

The question is simple

Is this True according to Islam?

honesttalk21:
The honoring of Mary as the Mother of God can be traced back to the Council of Ephesus in 431. By the 7th century, January 1st was observedas a celebration of the Maternity of the Blessed Virgin Mary. In the 13th century, the Feast of the Circumcision of Christ had come to replace the feast honoring Mary. However, in 1751, Pope Benedict XIV allowed Portugal’s churches to devote a feast to Mary on the first Sunday in May. This was because of a push in Portugal for an official feast day celebrating Mary’s divine maternity. Eventually, the feast was expanded to include other countries.

Unfortunately, only Catholics honour Mary as Mother of God

honesttalk21:
Mary, the New Testament Ark of the Covenant

Revelation 11:19-12:1:Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Mary's body is in heaven

Revelation 12:1:And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Mary is Queen of Heaven

Revelation 12:1:And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Obtained from Catholic bible 101

These is according to the Catholics not according to the mainstream Christians!

Mary was an ordinary woman. She didn't even have any role during the time of the Apostles with the Believers. She joined the Believers in worship just as any other Christian

Acts 1:14:
"All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers."


The veneration of Mary by the Catholics and the veneration of the Black stone by you Muslims is exactly at par!

Very interesting submissions Mr.
The Catholic Church, also known as Roman Catholicism, is the largest branch of Christianity with more than 1.345 billion adherents worldwide.

2. For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God (Exodus 34:14).

Veneration of the Black stone?
Who prays to the black stone or praises the black stone? Is the black stone included in any prayers? The hail Mary has been since the 6th century though Christians justify it from their Bible book of Luke. Note the second part added 400 years after the start.

Is the praise of the Black stone mentioned in the Quran?
Why try to equate it to Mary after even going as far as saying Catholics are not Christians? Are you speaking on both sides?

TenQ:

These is according to the Catholics not according to the mainstream Christians!

Mary was an ordinary woman. She didn't even have any role during the time of the Apostles with the Believers. She joined the Believers in worship just as any other Christian

Acts 1:14:
"All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers."


The veneration of Mary by the Catholics and the veneration of the Black stone by you Muslims is exactly at par!

I have answered presenting different types of examples about how others worshipped along with Allah or Almighty God if you prefer.

My answer is not restricted to God father, God Son and God spirit but all association of God with another.

Doesn't your God say he is jealous in Ex 34:14, Ex 20:4-6 and many more?

2. The angel appearing before Mary in human form was to deliver a message from Allah? Did he not appear to her in your Bible?
You fail to recognise that in these appearances he did not stay to eat with her or any other person like a human would.

I have shared the justification of actions towards Mary put forward by some of those who do. These are not my sayings but what they do and why they say they do?

Is that difficult for you to comprehend?

TenQ:


[b]Qur'an 19:18
Then We sent to her Our angel, ˹Gabriel,˺ appearing before her as a man, perfectly formed.[/b]

Sahih al-Bukhari 50

Sahih al-Bukhari 4777




How can you tell me to do that which you don't even understand and mixup.
What is Trinity according to Islam: you are confused about it at best.





Half knowledge kills is the only response I have for you here. I wish you read all the scripture post you wrote up here and ask questions according to the instruction of Allah if you don't understand anything.
So the Jews have the post of the Queen!?
The Queen-mother act as counsellor to her son!?
A member of the royal courts!?




Who is this woman?
You think she is Mary!?

The book of Revelation is symbolic and the woman described in the passage you mentioned is interpreted as a symbol rather than a specific historical or individual figure.

The Woman is the Nation of Israel with the 12 Tribes as stars and her Son as the Messiah. The Dragon is satan.
The woman fled to the wilderness (challenging times) where she is protected in isolation by God Himself for a long time.

Rev 12:4-6:
"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up to God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score days."

honesttalk21:
Very interesting submissions Mr.
The Catholic Church, also known as Roman Catholicism, is the largest branch of Christianity with more than 1.345 billion adherents worldwide.

2. For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God (Exodus 34:14).

Veneration of the Black stone?
Who prays to the black stone or praises the black stone? Is the black stone included in any prayers? The hail Mary has been since the 6th century though Christians justify it from their Bible book of Luke. Note the second part added 400 years after the start.

Is the praise of the Black stone mentioned in the Quran?
Why try to equate it to Mary after even going as far as saying Catholics are not Christians? Are you speaking on both sides?

I laugh in Chinese Language.
Mohammed kissed the black stone as an act of worship because on the day of judgement, the stone would be given a mouth to intercede for you Muslims. Is that not the same kind of Idolatry the Catholics practice?

The Catholics have the image of Mary in their place of Worship AND all you Muslims pray facing towards the back stone in the Kaaba: is this not the same idolatry.

The Catholics believe that Mary will intercede for them And you Muslims believe that the black stone will intercede for you: is this not idolatry!

Please come off it!
Idolatory is idolatry in whatever form you make it.
Why do you Muslims kiss the black stone?
Because your prophet kissed it!
Why did Mohammed kissed the black stone?

honesttalk21:
I have answered presenting different types of examples about how others worshipped along with Allah or Almighty God if you prefer.

My answer is not restricted to God father, God Son and God spirit but all association of God with another.

Doesn't your God say he is jealous in Ex 34:14, Ex 20:4-6 and many more?

2. The angel appearing before Mary in human form was to deliver a message from Allah? Did he not appear to her in your Bible?
You fail to recognise that in these appearances he did not stay to eat with her or any other person like a human would.

I have shared the justification of actions towards Mary put forward by some of those who do. These are not my sayings but what they do and why they say they do?

Is that difficult for you to comprehend?

Until you define properly Trinity according to Allah, you CANNOT present your own warped Strawman and insist on it.

1. If Christians say that Allah is the Messiah, tell me, who are they worshipping as PARTNER with Allah?

I showed you from your Qur'an that Jubril appeared to Mary as a perfect man didn't I?

2. If you agree with Allah that Jubril appeared as a Perfect man to Mary,
a. Does Jubril have a tongue?
b. Does Jubril have a kidney?
c. Does Jubril has a penis?

3. When Jubril became a Man, did he stop being an Angel?

4. Is an Angel a Man?

You wouldn't answer this because it betrays the ignorance in your doctrine.
Please just 4 Questions if you are truthful!