We can argue till thy kingdom come, but the truth is simple.

The world is becoming a smaller place  and there is competition everywhere. . . And if the Nigerian government doesn't step up or at least try to move in that direction sooner than later, Nigerian doctors who get the opportunity and scale the hurdles required will continue to relocate to greener pastures.

After all, don't we all look for the best of things in life

Kobojunkie:

lol . . . . You didn't even notice how he SWITCHED this to Doctors DURING RESIDENCY( not really considered graduates in most all countries until AFTER RESIDENCY).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residency_(medicine)

Medical students, during residency still, live on better wages than their PHD counterparts --- PHD average is still at about $28000 a year in most states here. The average doctor (non-resident student) according to reports available online earn upwards of $80,000 both in Europe and America( in UK the start is at about $35 k and above which is well over $80000). In the US, a friend who recently completed residency and is now out in the job market, signed an over  $100,000 a year contract in the city. Good research will reveal this is no special case at all.

Anyways, it is more than obvious that this original article says NOTHING of resident doctors/medical students but fully licensed doctors and nowhere in developed countries do they earn what anyone can consider little money if the facts are considered.

@kobo
Say what you know please. . . Not what you think!!!

oyb:

frosbel, unless you come back to nigeria to work as a civil servant, you have NO business commenting on the choices of other not to serve their fatherland

you also had a 'free UI education". so come and give back to your fatherland, go and work in the civil service

nonsense


the funny thing is that so many of the people blathering about doctors WILL ALWAYS TRY TO GET OUT OF PAYING DOCTORS THEIR BILLS

this is the same reason why many private hospitals insist on deposit before treatment

i should know, doctors have very big hearts and nigerians (even the rich ones) love taking advantage of this. i have lost count of the number of people who will troop to my dad's clinic for treatment and start dodging when its time to pay.

Thank you jare.

My dad served for more than 35 yrs and where's the appreciation? The govt would owe them and use the same money to send their children abroad. Why are they not humanitrian? Why take from govt coffers and plunder? Why amass wealth for your family alone at the expense of the whole society. If everyone believed in this humanitarian thing would they have starved my secondary school of teachers and fund?


If Frosbel's parents believed this humanitarian crap he would be somewhere in Jalingo today as he would not be able to afford travel ticket abroad.

He's talking shyyyyyyte!

i should know, doctors have very big hearts and nigerians (even the rich ones) love taking advantage of this. i have lost count of the number of people who will troop to my dad's clinic for treatment and start dodging when its time to pay.

Yeah, you are right. It got to a stage my brother concluded that those who begged in the name of Jesus, etc were the ones who would not pay.

Lines like "ah, doctor, I am a pastor. I will pay you. Next month. Please, help us". They were the ones who never paid.



Is it not funny that churches (that Frosbel represents) spend much time preaching about prosperity and not humanitarian efforts?

My position is fairly simple.

A) I don't want to sink massive amounts of money in subsidizing someone to be a doc only for them to leave. And this isn't really about doctors either specifically, it applies to almost any field. I'm anti massive university subsidies, period (with a few exceptions.)
B) However, if they've "paid back" (either explicitly or implicitly) the money used, then they are free to do whatever they like. Private practice in Nigeria (where I guess they'll be able to make a lot more money), go to Saudi, Yankee, etc.
C) I believe that if doctors feel that they are underpaid in Nigeria, they should be free to raise their rates if in private practice, or leave public service for private practice assuming condition B is met.
D) I don't believe in essential public workers striking (i.e., doctors working for the government.)

Basically, both sides should view it as a business. Nobody should be really doing favors for anyone else (except for D).

I'm not anti-doctor, anti-people-making-as-money-as-they-can-earn (I'm essentially a free market guy).

I don't view doctors as slaves or people who must serve the greater good (again, subject to condition D).

And FWIW, my little sister plans on being a doctor, and my cousin is a dentist in Lagos right now.

Ola one:

Thank you jare.

My dad served for more than 35 yrs and where's the appreciation? The govt would owe them and use the same money to send their children abroad. Why are they not humanitrian? Why take from govt coffers and plunder? Why amass wealth for your family alone at the expense of the whole society. If everyone believed in this humanitarian thing would they have starved my secondary school of teachers and fund?


If Frosbel's parents believed this humanitarian crap he would be somewhere in Jalingo today as he would not be able to afford travel ticket abroad.

He's talking shyyyyyyte!

Yeah, you are right. It got to a stage my brother concluded that those who begged in the name of Jesus, etc were the ones who would not pay.

Lines like "ah, doctor, I am a pastor. I will pay you. Next month. Please, help us". They were the ones who never paid.



Is it not funny that churches (that Frosbel represents) spend much time preaching about prosperity and not humanitarian efforts?

I simply mentioned that your brother is not a bank and you are all over the place.

Calm down brother

frosbel:

I simply mentioned that your brother is not a bank and you are all over the place.

Calm down brother

Just embark on your humanitarian mission and see how the same people you intend to serve will end up up making jest of how poor you are.

Try it.

ekt_bear:

My position is fairly simple.

A) I don't want to sink massive amounts of money in subsidizing someone to be a doc only for them to leave. And this isn't really about doctors either specifically, it applies to almost any field. I'm anti massive university subsidies, period (with a few exceptions.)
B) However, if they've "paid back" (either explicitly or implicitly) the money used, then they are free to do whatever they like. Private practice in Nigeria (where I guess they'll be able to make a lot more money), go to Saudi, Yankee, etc.
C) I believe that if doctors feel that they are underpaid in Nigeria, they should be free to raise their rates if in private practice, or leave public service for private practice assuming condition B is met.
D) I don't believe in essential public workers striking (i.e., doctors working for the government.)

Basically, both sides should view it as a business. Nobody should be really doing favors for anyone else (except for D).

I'm not anti-doctor, anti-people-making-as-money-as-they-can-earn (I'm essentially a free market guy).

I don't view doctors as slaves or people who must serve the greater good (again, subject to condition D).

And FWIW, my little sister plans on being a doctor, and my cousin is a dentist in Lagos right now.

Private practice is not all that in Nigeria. My brother once told me there're more than 50 private hospitals in a small part of Surulere alone - all vying for the same market where oko oloyuns make more money.

Even in the Western world, that is a record for an area of that size.




And, above all, what if you intend to serve this govt and they don't want you? Many doctors are now jobless in Nigeria. Many!

Go to the same UCH this useless report is all about, find out how easy it is to get a job there as a doctor if you didn't graduate from UI.

tHERE IS NOOOOOOOOO job THERE.

tHEN, TRY LUTH and Lagos General. No job either if you are not highly connected. So, what do you expect these doctors to do?




Sometimes, it is better for some people not to comment on something they do not really understand

*shrug*

Like I said, I view it as a business. It isn't by force for the government to hire every doctor who wants a government job.

And if private practice doesn't pay you enough, then unfortunate, but it is what it is.

Nobody owes anyone else a living in Nigeria, not to talk of doctors specifically.

ziga:

@kobo
Say what you know please. . . Not what you think!!!

go bother someone else!

ekt_bear:

*shrug*

Like I said, I view it as a business. It isn't by force for the government to hire every doctor who wants a government job.

And if private practice doesn't pay you enough, then unfortunate, but it is what it is.

Nobody owes anyone else a living in Nigeria, not to talk of doctors specifically.

Yep, it is what it is if they moved abroad as well. The Nigerian govt diddn't give them their brains.

End of.

The One:

Can someone explain how 35,000 pounds is greater than 80,000 dollars? Abi na nite school I go?

Is there a reason why you keep jumping all over the place but never really addressing questions asked? So far, we have assumed that Pounds 35000(UK) is about $80,000(US). Why are you now trying to pretend this is now again being questioned in some way??

Who are you arguing with? As the post you quoted but evidently didn't read states, I'm not opposed to doctors (or anyone else, for that matter) leaving. Assuming they've paid back money one way or another.

All in all, you need to calm down.

^^^^Okay, now they have refused to pay back, why not go and take their certificates away from them?

Kobojunkie:

Is there a reason why you keep jumping all over the place but never really addressing questions asked? So far, we have assumed that Pounds 35000(UK) is about $80,000(US). Why are you now trying to pretend this is now again being questioned in some way??

I hope you had a proper look at his Usename. Ola one IS NOT the same username as 'the one'.


Check again oo

Of what relevance is that? What is your point? If you have no point, then keep it moving.

@Kobowuruwuru

lol . . . . You didn't even notice how he SWITCHED this to Doctors DURING RESIDENCY( not really considered graduates in most all countries until AFTER RESIDENCY).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residency_(medicine)

Medical students, during residency still, live on better wages than their PHD counterparts --- PHD average is still at about $28000 a year in most states here. The average doctor (non-resident student) according to reports available online earn upwards of $80,000 both in Europe and America( in UK the start is at about $35 k and above which is well over $80000). In the US, a friend who recently completed residency and is now out in the job market, signed an over  $100,000 a year contract in the city. Good research will reveal this is no special case at all.

Anyways, it is more than obvious that this original article says NOTHING of resident doctors/medical students but fully licensed doctors and nowhere in developed countries do they earn what anyone can consider little money if the facts are considered.

Mayne you said starting salary and you use $. Fair assumption to think you are talking about the states- in the states residents are considered graduates. You and your wuruwuru and dabaru dabaru tactics.

When you now add tax+the loans you take out of medical school, the only time you will break through is when you are 32+.  And also consider the work hours are very high pressure.


Corporate lawyers at BigLaw firms earn 120,000 dollars straight out of law school most of them in their mid 20s. PhDs make crap pay as post-docs but those who go straight into industry can decently make 80,000-120,000 dollars a year. Quite a decent number of PhDs go and work in Finance/Management Consulting at least a lot I know and they start off with six figures, most have their PhD completed by 26/27.

Insert Quote
Can someone explain how 35,000 pounds is greater than 80,000 dollars? Abi na nite school I go?

35,000 pounds=56,000 dollars

56,000 dollars is roughly equal to 80,000 dollars

Kobomatics principle.

Getting a job at BigLaw is pretty hard, though. It isn't something your typical law school graduate gets.

So that isn't a valid comparison, if you are trying to compare against typical doctor salaries.

ekt_bear:

Who are you arguing with? As the post you quoted but evidently didn't read states, I'm not opposed to doctors (or anyone else, for that matter) leaving. Assuming they've paid back money one way or another.

Well, i think i understand your point. But thing is, it affects everybody who had their education in Nigeria and not only doctors. Education is subsidized, but students basically go through hell to fill in the gaps that the "subsidized education" leaves them with. I will try not to go into the details.

So, how much more would be fair tuition to Nigerian students, for the current educational system that is provided.

Bottom line is, the problem is multi-factorial, so trying to fix one thing wouldn't change nothing.

^-- Agreed. The problem is actually larger than doctors and medical school education. The entire education system probably needs to be revamped. . . isn't as if I'm trying to pick on doctors alone.

Ola one:

^^^^Okay, now they have refused to pay back, why not go and take their certificates away from them?


I hope you had a proper look at his Usename. Ola one IS NOT the same username as 'the one'.


Check again oo

my mistake . . ,  I thought that was you now questioning the continued reference to Pounds 35000(UK) and $ 80000 (US), we have been using all this while. 

Not necessary we engage in the silly circular debates on here too . . . .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residency_(medicine) -- tells anyone lacking all they need to know of what resident doctor really refers to.

Again, Beyond TRAINING then you talk of Doctors who are out in the field, seeking for companies/institutions to hire em. Again, what the original document centers on(Doctors who were trained at UCH but found work abroad afterwards) are not residents but actual doctors out in the field, looking for work where they are most appreciated, and this happens to be abroad.

But wait o . . . you never answer my question oo. . . .

Kobojunkie:

Who mentioned Manchester? What has Moss side living to do with getting an Entry-level job that pays you Pounds 35, 000 a year? Do all doctors have to live in the high-brow areas of any city or town? You say some nurses earn close to Pounds 35000, I ask you after how many years of working in the field, do these nurses get to their Pounds 35,000 or thereabouts, pay you speak of? I don't think you are being reasonable here at all.

ola one


the nigerian situation is bad, granted, but its a bit unrealistic to expect someone to be able to cater for the whole family right out of medical school or indeed any school.


men often have that burden, but this is caused by the nigerian economic environment which is poor.

i think the high wages paid by the oil companies have led to unrealistic salary expectations back home.


in addition, i doubt most western trained doctors can adapt well to practicing medicine in nigeria, simply because in nigeria what we have is mainly tropical medicine, and more of hand on experiences where you learn to tailor your medical practice to what you see on ground.

i'm not saying the health infrastructure in nigeria is good- dont get me wrong.

as per the housemanship conditions- yes, your brother should have bought a new mattress and bug spray.

or simply moved somewhere else.


if he had problems adapting why didnt he network with any corpers in his area and find out how they were coping.

@ the issue of people being unable to pay their medical bills- yes, quite a lot of patients cant afford to.

nigeria is a third world country.


and about the lagos hospital thingy- dont know what happened there but why didnt he try other govt hospitals or go for a residency.

i'm sure not every doctor working in lagos hospitals is originally from lagos?

even the general public sector is full of non-indigenes how much more other areas.

tinubu- originally osun or ogun

aregbesola- osun/ondo state- former lagos commissioner.

ben akabueze- igbo and a lagos commissioner

joe igbokwe- igbo and govt spokesperson- cant even remember his exact position



and the list goes on.

jakande- originally from kwara i believe. Former governor of lagos.

tpia@:

ola one


the nigerian situation is bad, granted, but its a bit unrealistic to expect someone to be able to cater for the whole family right out of medical school or indeed any school.


men often have that burden, but this is caused by the nigerian economic environment which is poor.

i think the high wages paid by the oil companies have led to unrealistic salary expectations back home.


in addition, i doubt most western trained doctors can adapt well to practicing medicine in nigeria, simply because in nigeria what we have is mainly tropical medicine, and more of hand on experiences where you learn to tailor your medical practice to what you see on ground.

i'm not saying the health infrastructure in nigeria is good- dont get me wrong.

as per the housemanship conditions- yes, your brother should have bought a new mattress and bug spray.

or simply moved somewhere else.


if he had problems adapting why didnt he network with any corpers in his area and find out how they were coping.

If doctors are to have such big responsibilities in terms of taking care of sick people and being humanitarian about it, then, i don't think it is unfair/unpatriotic for them to go to places where they would be better appreciated/remunerated.

Especially if they have to go through all these hoops and still be humanitarian about caring for other human lives.

The average Nigerian doesn't value healthcare. . . That is why life expectancy is low, that is why you can walk into a chemist to pickup whatever medicine you want, and that is also why we are having this argument.

You have to take good care of the few people who take care of all the other sick people. . . Truth is some things are supposed to be more important than others. . . And i think health is somewhere on top of the list.

that is why you can walk into a chemist to pickup whatever medicine you want,

most non-western countries have this option.

tpia@:

ola one


the nigerian situation is bad, granted, but its a bit unrealistic to expect someone to be able to cater for the whole family right out of medical school or indeed any school.


men often have that burden, but this is caused by the nigerian economic environment which is poor.

i think the high wages paid by the oil companies have led to unrealistic salary expectations back home.


in addition, i doubt most western trained doctors can adapt well to practicing medicine in nigeria, simply because in nigeria what we have is mainly tropical medicine, and more of hand on experiences where you learn to tailor your medical practice to what you see on ground.

i'm not saying the health infrastructure in nigeria is good- dont get me wrong.

as per the housemanship conditions- yes, your brother should have bought a new mattress and bug spray.

or simply moved somewhere else.


if he had problems adapting why didnt he network with any corpers in his area and find out how they were coping.

Couldn't av said it any better

I don't need anyone in here to preach to me. Leave whereever you are and go and preach to your leaders and the whole society that remains unfair. See how none of you in here has addressed why a doctor who didn't write this test got his letter? The same crap at UCH. nO JOBS WITHOUT CONNECTION.
If the govt had taken good care of civil servants maybe we wouldn't have relied on him. Moreover, he didn't complain. So?


Besides, by God's grace we are okay today. Really okay - all on our own. And God. So?
The Nigerian govt didn't train him after all. Yet he came back and did all that was expected of him. He didn't complain about doctors salary. He wanted a job and the opportunity to do his consultancy. None of you commented about their request for his compound, ehn, in Lagos  . Imagine that. He was born there. He's Yoruba. What would they have done to an Igbo doctor then? Abeg, guys, make una forget that side

All I know is let no one complain. You're seeing nada yet. We are not here to contribute nada as we didn't take nada from no govt. The system will continue as it is.

It is survival of the fittest out there. So, let's do it.

We don't need any of you in here. Sorry about that. If you need healthcare, put some spoon in you mouth abeg

Thank you Ola One,
it is a total disgrace to nigeria as a country and it is as if nigeria is under a curse.what concerns the history of your compound in interview for medical job?it is nothing but MOCKERY OF CERTIFICATE AND SKILL!those interviewers must be daft and senseless.May they not have peace of mind and God punish them in their night time of life.They and the owner of the work will die a painful death at the end of their life,for them to have done such to a lame man who has suffered enough and denying him of his RIGHT!!!!
They can withhold their work but what is the meaning of molestation and mockery.Assuming there is no other way for that young man,what would have happen to him?after long years of sufferness and deprivation.
My friend experienced a similar situation in one of the interviews at one of the most popular hospitals,telling a 31 YEAR old plus doctor that he is too young to start residency in paediatrics,whereas a son of a Legged idiot got the same position at 24 years!!!!.May God punish them all!!

I strongly advice doctors to leave Nigeria and find a greener pasture because the country is a black leg among its counterpart countries and it has no plan for you,your circumstances,your present and your future and that you are just a figure on nigerian population commission chart!!!!Except one is a thief who knows how to steal money very well!!!

Even if it is Ghana,your life as a Doctor is more and extensively valuable and appreciated than in Nigeria!!!


GOOD DAY!!!

^^applying for a residency position doesnt automatically mean you'll be accepted for the position.

reason why it's advisable to apply to more than one place.


regardless if you're overseas or in nigeria.


people also hear funny things abroad too, if you dont know.

let's stop acting as if everything is only nigeria.

i'm not against people seeking greener pastures, but it seems there's a general mindset which is sort of one track.

and yes, connections matter most of the time, back home.

in most fields, not only healthcare.

Good morning,
So many comments by all the 'honorary doctors' in the house
Doctors are human and will obey the laws of a market economy, It's survival of the fittest

The starting salary for a doctor in the UK isn't 35k, it's about 25k but that's besides the
Point. The cost of living is much higher in the UK regarding things like transport, housing etc so don't expect your salary to afford you a life of luxury

Your NYSC in Nigeria is payback as far as I'm concerned, if you want more then you can ask the government to change the rules. While you are at it, can you ask them to improve the quality of the educational system, the salaries of Drs etc then more doctors will stay. Doctors in Nigeria are not asking for pop star wages but they want a salary commensurate with what they do, better living conditions and a good life work balance, but then don't we all. You fight your corner and we will fight ours.

If you have got mouths to feed and a family in need your altruistic instincts go out the window, you will seek greener pastures too.

I can't think of any medical school that has more than 50% of its graduates working in Nigeria.
Nigerian doctors abroad do contribute to Nigeria, though not all, some are highly disillushioned with their experiences in nigeria and have disowned nigeria, i hope temporarily.
Do you think it's only Yahoo boys sending money home? Do you know how much money is remitted home every month by Nigerians abroad? So we do contribute to the economy in different ways

Nigerian doctors generally leave to seek better training and stay as they are swayed by the attractive salaries on offer. You're more likely to be given a job on merit than which compound you grew up in and which state you're from.
There are so many issues here but lets not forget doctors are human too, Why don't you donate half your salary to charity as a start?

Most Nigerian doctors were top of their class so they are smart, if they were smart in their young, don't expect them to be silly in later life. If they see an opportunity they will take it just like you. Nigerian doctors are not asking for charity, they take pride in their profession and they want to do it properly, a quote of mine " I'm a doctor not a hospital" I can give you advice treat you etc but I need to right equipment, the government needs to invest in healthcare. Medical care is not cheap
To set up a simple diagnostic suite in Nigeria I require in my particular speciality will cost me over £300,000.
That's not adding the cost of installation, maintenance etc it's actually cheaper to set up the same unit in Zambia as I don't have to pay extortion fees to any government official. They are happy to have me and it's not about the money it's about the service and commitment. Otherwise I'd buy myself a nice car and go on fancy holidays so please don't question the motives of Nigeria doctors we know where we are from and we think of Nigeria everyday

And before you ask
yes I graduated in nigeria
Yes I work abroad
Yes I earn a comfortable salary, I'm not ashamed of that
Yes I do come home and contribute to the system, twice a year
Yes I am appalled at the state of healthcare in Nigeria but one man cannot build a nation

So I am more than qualified to join the debate and answer your questions too

Have a nice day, I will it's my first half day off this year

N80,000/ month - Fresh doctors salary @ OSUTH
N2,000,000/month - Fresh doctor with PLAB doing locum work @ any UK hospital

Which one you go choose?