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Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? - Islam for Muslims - Nairaland

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Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by aloyemeka1: 12:43am On Nov 23, 2011
Taqiyya and kitman are two forms of lying to unbelievers that are permitted under certain circumstances in Islam. Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences." Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true and Kitman - Lying by omission.


Qur'an (16:106) --Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."  Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.

Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permissible in order to deceive an "enemy."


So does it mean that muslims are permitted to lie?
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by tbaba1234: 1:28am On Nov 23, 2011
Islam is a practical religion,

Lying is haraam in all cases, expect those which are exempted by the Lawgiver-

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “O you who believe! Fear Allaah, and be with those who are true (in words and deeds)” [al-Tawbah 9:119].

In al-Saheehayn and elsewhere it is narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I urge you to be truthful, for truthfulness leads to righteousness, and righteousness leads to Paradise. A man will continue to be truthful and seek to speak the truth until he is recorded with Allaah as speaker of truth (siddeeq). And beware of lying, for lying leads to immorality and immorality leads to Hell; a man will continue to tell lies until he is recorded with Allaah as a liar.”

And it was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood also said: Lying is not appropriate whether in earnest or in jest. Recite if you wish (interpretation of the meaning): “O you who believe! Fear Allaah, and be with those who are true (in words and deeds)” [al-Tawbah 9:119]. Then he said: Do you find any concession allowing that to anyone?

The basic principle concerning telling lies is that it is one of the signs of the hypocrites, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“The signs of the hypocrite are three: when he speaks, he lies, when he makes a promise he breaks it, and when he is entrusted with something he breaks that trust.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 32; Muslim, 89.

But there are some instances in which Islam permits lying, if that serves a greater purpose or wards off a greater harm:

These cases include the following:

1- When a person is intermediating in order to bring about reconciliation between two disputing parties.

2- When a man speaks to his wife, or a wife to her husband, concerning matters that will increase the love between them. (like complementing her)

3- War.

It was narrated from Umm Kulthoom bint ‘Uqbah that she heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “He is not a liar who brings about reconciliation among people, conveys good words and says good things.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2546; Muslim, 2605

It was narrated that Asma’ bint Yazeed said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“Lies are not appropriate except in three cases: when a man speaks to his wife to please her, telling lies at times of war, and lying in order to bring about reconciliation between people.”
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by aloyemeka1: 1:34am On Nov 23, 2011
When a man speaks to his wife, or a wife to her husband, concerning matters that will increase the love between them.

So a cheating wife can always lie about her adulterous affairs to her husband because telling him the truth will reduce the love between them?.
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by tbaba1234: 1:43am On Nov 23, 2011
aloy/emeka:

So a cheating wife can always lie about her adulterous affairs to her husband because telling him the truth will reduce the love between them?.

comon man, in affairs that increase love between them :: Like saying my wife looks gorgeous early in the morning when she actually looks like crap. Or complementing her hair even though i don't care about it. The little things.

That is an extreme example, because adultery is prohibited in the first place so lying doesn't make it any better.
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by aloyemeka1: 1:52am On Nov 23, 2011
tbaba1234:

comon man, in affairs that increase love between them :: Like saying my wife looks gorgeous early in the morning when she actually looks  like crap. Or complementing her hair even though i don't care about it. The little things.

That is an extreme example, because adultery is prohibited in the first place so lying doesn't make it any better.
So can a woman lie to her husband about a friend she keeps even though her husband has warned her against hanging around that woman?
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by tbaba1234: 2:45am On Nov 23, 2011
aloy/emeka:

So can a woman lie to her husband about a friend she keeps even though her husband has warned her against hanging around that woman?

Does that increase the love between them?
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by aloyemeka1: 2:54am On Nov 23, 2011
tbaba1234:

Does that increase the love between them?

The condition given by Allah states that:
If action A is capable of increasing the love between couples, either couple may use that action and its no sin. So if this woman tells her husband that she is still hanging out with her gossip friend, his love for her will decrease but by lying to her husband even though she is doing the opposite, the man is in fools paradise and will continue to love her more. The same instance is given when a man is promising a woman that he will marry her, such lie will make her love him more and give the man a chance to make her shut up and continue servicing him.

Islam is very phenomenal and una Allah prepared every scenario for only the men. Muslim men can Mu'tah any women they see on the road, lie to their wives at home and still be righteous before Allah. Islam rocks for you guys o, abi ki le ni mo so? grin grin grin grin grin
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by tbaba1234: 3:29am On Nov 23, 2011
aloy/emeka:

The condition given by Allah states that:
If action A is capable of increasing the love between couples, either couple may use that action and its no sin. So if this woman tells her husband that she is still hanging out with her gossip friend, his love for her will decrease but by lying to her husband even though she is doing the opposite, the man is in fools paradise and will continue to love her more. The same instance is given when a man is promising a woman that he will marry her, such lie will make her love him more and give the man a chance to make her shut up and continue servicing him.

Islam is very phenomenal and una Allah prepared every scenario for only the men. Muslim men can Mu'tah any women they see on the road, lie to their wives at home and still be righteous before Allah. Islam rocks for you guys o, abi ki le ni mo so? grin grin grin grin grin

This is beyond silly:

The condition between a man and his wife is saying things that will increase their love:

1. A woman lying about her friend does nothing to increase the love between the couple; a woman complementing her husband or a man complementing his wife does. A woman is supposed to respect her husband's wishes just like he is supposed to fulfill his duty to her.

2. Remember this condition is between a man and his wife. Not some kind of prohibited relationship.

Yes, islam is phenomenal for both men and women. Fornication and adultery are frowned at by islam. Men and women are commanded to guard their modesty.

Be careful the way you use Allah because even arab christians use Allah. So that you do not incur sins in your attempt to make fun of a perfectly logical law.

P.S. Come on man, let's engage on an intellectual level, stop making these kinds of ignorant statements.
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by aloyemeka1: 4:00am On Nov 23, 2011
tbaba1234:

This is beyond silly:

The condition between a man and his wife is saying things that will increase their love:

1. A woman lying about her friend does nothing to increase the love between the couple; a woman complementing her husband or a man complementing his wife does. A woman is supposed to respect her husband's wishes just like he is supposed to fulfill his duty to her.

2. Remember this condition is between a man and his wife. Not some kind of prohibited relationship.

Yes, islam is phenomenal for both men and women. Fornication and adultery are frowned at by islam. Men and women are  commanded to guard their modesty.

Be careful the way you use Allah because even arab christians use Allah. So that you do not incur sins in your attempt to make fun of a perfectly logical law.

P.S. Come on man, let's engage on an intellectual level,  stop making these kinds of ignorant statements.



Is the husband not supposed to respect his wife's wishes?. What if wife no 1 asks him whether he loves her less than wife no 2 and even though its true and it will hurt her if he says the truth ,he then decides to tell her that he loves her equally  for the sake of maintaining peace and increasing their love against the wishes of the woman because she really wants to know the truth. So Allah will not count that as a lie?.Simply accept that Allah paved way for muslim men to be panshin women without guilt because flirting comes with lies upon lies and muslim women are more prone to lies because they are largely illiterate, crude and uncivilized.
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by tbaba1234: 5:19am On Nov 23, 2011
aloy/emeka:

Is the husband not supposed to respect his wife's wishes?. What if wife no 1 asks him whether he loves her less than wife no 2 and even though its true and it will hurt her if he says the truth ,he then decides to tell her that he loves her equally  for the sake of maintaining peace and increasing their love against the wishes of the woman because she really wants to know the truth. So Allah will not count that as a lie?.Simply accept that Allah paved way for muslim men to be panshin women without guilt because flirting comes with lies upon lies and muslim women are more prone to lies because they are largely illiterate, crude and uncivilized.

Ofcourse, he is supposed to respect her wishes. however, if they come to an agreement on an issue. Both parties should stick to the agreement.

If you have 3 kids, you probably love one the most. Would you tell one of your kids that you love the other more than him? even if he really wants to know,  Islam is practical,  why cause possible rift between the wives. Your duty is to treat each kid/wife justly according to your means.

The argument that muslim women are largely uneducated is ungrounded. The muslim women, particularly in the arab world are some of the most educated on the world,  Compare literacy rates across muslim countries

Egypt
Youth (15-24 years) literacy rate, 2004-2008*, male
88%

Youth (15-24 years) literacy rate, 2004-2008*, female
82%

Saudi Arabia

Youth (15-24 years) literacy rate, 2004-2008*, male
98%

Youth (15-24 years) literacy rate, 2004-2008*, female
96%

Malaysia

Youth (15-24 years) literacy rate, 2004-2008*, male
98%

Youth (15-24 years) literacy rate, 2004-2008*, female
99%

Indonesia
Youth (15-24 years) literacy rate, 2004-2008*, male
97%

Youth (15-24 years) literacy rate, 2004-2008*, female
96%

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/

Some muslim states do not have such numbers mainly because of poverty not because of islam.

Muslim men are not permitted to flirt with women that are not their wives.
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by aloyemeka1: 11:50am On Nov 23, 2011
tbaba1234:

Ofcourse, he is supposed to respect her wishes. however, if they come to an agreement on an issue. Both parties should stick to the agreement.

If you have 3 kids, you probably love one the most. Would you tell one of your kids that you love the other more than him? even if he really wants to know,  Islam is practical,  why cause possible rift between the wives. Your duty is to treat each kid/wife justly according to your means.

Of course if my child seeks for the truth, I will give it to him/her. It is always better to say the truth than to lie honestly. Even the bible said that only the truth shall set you free. If Allah requires muslims to lie, how are you sure that all He told you in the quran is true?. Could he be lying about the 72 virgins waiting for you in heaven simply to make muslim men feel better?. What other possible lies did Allah tell so as to convince followers and INCREASE the love they have for Him?.


tbaba1234:

The argument that muslim women are largely uneducated is ungrounded. The muslim women, particularly in the arab world are some of the most educated on the world,  Compare literacy rates across muslim countries

Egypt
Youth (15-24 years) literacy rate, 2004-2008*, male
88%

Youth (15-24 years) literacy rate, 2004-2008*, female
82%

Saudi Arabia

Youth (15-24 years) literacy rate, 2004-2008*, male
98%

Youth (15-24 years) literacy rate, 2004-2008*, female
96%

Malaysia

Youth (15-24 years) literacy rate, 2004-2008*, male
98%

Youth (15-24 years) literacy rate, 2004-2008*, female
99%

Indonesia
Youth (15-24 years) literacy rate, 2004-2008*, male
97%

Youth (15-24 years) literacy rate, 2004-2008*, female
96%

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/

Some muslim states do not have such numbers mainly because of poverty not because of islam.

Muslim men are not permitted to flirt with women that are not their wives.






Literacy rate and education rate are not the same. Because the women can read Arabic doesn't automatically make them educated. Did you say that muslim men are not permitted to do what?. Even on nairaland because there are many of them here looking to mingle.
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by tbaba1234: 1:09pm On Nov 23, 2011
aloy/emeka:

Of course if my child seeks for the truth, I will give it to him/her. It is always better to say the truth than to lie honestly. Even the bible said that only the truth shall set you free. If Allah requires muslims to lie, how are you sure that all He told you in the quran is true?. Could he be lying about the 72 virgins waiting for you in heaven simply to make muslim men feel better?. What other possible lies did Allah tell so as to convince followers and INCREASE the love they have for Him?.

Literacy rate and education rate are not the same. Because the women can read Arabic doesn't automatically make them educated. Did you say that muslim men are not permitted to do what?. Even on nairaland because there are many of them here looking to mingle.

Do you live in a fairy world? How do you tell one kid you love him more than the other? Be practical!!
Do you tell your wife she looks ugly because you want to say the truth? Be practical!!
In a war, if you get caught, do you just tell the enemy what they want to know?, Be practical!!

Islam does not say you should lie, It only allows it under strict conditions, Forget your hatred for islam for two seconds and just think. Are you inventing new conditions?

Please provide one Quranic verse that mentions the word 72? otherwise just be mute,

Does secondary school education count?

Indonesia
Secondary school enrolment ratio 2005-2009*, gross, male
75

Secondary school enrolment ratio 2005-2009*, gross, female
74

Malaysia
Secondary school enrolment ratio 2005-2009*, gross, male
66

Secondary school enrolment ratio 2005-2009*, gross, female
71

Saudi Arabia
Secondary school enrolment ratio 2005-2009*, gross, Male
102

Secondary school enrolment ratio 2005-2009*, gross, female
87

Egypt
Secondary school enrolment ratio 2005-2009*, gross, male
82

Secondary school enrolment ratio 2005-2009*, gross, female
77

The rates are still very high,
What muslims do is not equivalent to what islam preaches.

P.S. Please come up with more reasoned responses,
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by aloyemeka1: 8:37pm On Nov 23, 2011
tbaba1234:

Do you live in a fairy  world? How do you tell one kid you love him more than the other? Be practical!!
Do you tell your wife she looks ugly because you want to say the truth? Be practical!!
In a war, if you get caught, do you just tell the enemy what they want to know?,   Be practical!!
If you love one kid more than the other, why not tell the truth no matter who it will hurt?. If we imbibe this culture of lying as stipulated by Muhammad, where will it stop. So you are saying that I should be teaching my kids to lie if the truth will make the next person feel bad?. So if Sweet-Bin-Necta is obese and ask me whether he is obese, I'd better tell him he is thin so as not to make him feel bad?. This is ridiculous o and you didn't answer my initial question which is: If Allah ask you guys to lie when it is convenient, how are you sure that many of the things he told you is the truth?. How are you sure Allah is not lying to you to make you feel better?

tbaba1234:


Please provide one Quranic verse that mentions the word 72? otherwise just be mute,   


In a collection by Imam at-Tirmidhi in his "Sunan" (Volume IV, Chapters on "The Features of Heaven as described by the Messenger of Allah", chapter 21: "About the Smallest Reward for the People of Heaven", hadith 2687) and also quoted by Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir (Qur'anic Commentary) of Surah Quran 55:72, it is stated:It was mentioned by Daraj Ibn Abi Hatim, that Abu al-Haytham 'Adullah Ibn Wahb narrated from Abu Sa'id al-Khudhri, who heard Muhammad saying, 'The smallest reward for the people of Heaven is an abode where there are eighty thousand servants and seventy-two houri, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine and ruby, as wide as the distance from al-Jabiyyah to San'a.
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by tbaba1234: 9:40pm On Nov 23, 2011
aloy/emeka:

If you love one kid more than the other, why not tell the truth no matter who it will hurt?. If we imbibe this culture of lying as stipulated by Muhammad, where will it stop. So you are saying that I should be teaching my kids to lie if the truth will make the next person feel bad?. So if Sweet-Bin-Necta is obese and ask me whether he is obese, I'd better tell him he is thin so as not to make him feel bad?. This is ridiculous o and you didn't answer my initial question which is: If Allah ask you guys to lie when it is convenient, how are you sure that many of the things he told you is the truth?. How are you sure Allah is not lying to you to make you feel better?
In a collection by Imam at-Tirmidhi in his "Sunan" (Volume IV, Chapters on "The Features of Heaven as described by the Messenger of Allah", chapter 21: "About the Smallest Reward for the People of Heaven", hadith 2687) and also quoted by Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir (Qur'anic Commentary) of Surah Quran 55:72, it is stated:It was mentioned by Daraj Ibn Abi Hatim, that Abu al-Haytham 'Adullah Ibn Wahb narrated from Abu Sa'id al-Khudhri, who heard Muhammad saying, 'The smallest reward for the people of Heaven is an abode where there are eighty thousand servants and seventy-two houri, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine and ruby, as wide as the distance from al-Jabiyyah to San'a.

Now, the question for you is to define what houris is? There are many definitions, but no one really knows and that's the point. still waiting for my Quran ayah. maybe a non-muslim can explain it better for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7yaDlZfqrc

Islam doesn't say: Go and lie, It says, if you lie given strict guidelines:: God is merciful and will forgive, The question is what serves the greater good;

telling my wife that she is ugly serves no purpose even if it might be the truth, it could destroy her self confidence and sense of worth. But telling her she is obese and support her to get medical help has a positive.

The basic principle concerning telling lies is that it is one of the signs of the hypocrites, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“The signs of the hypocrite are three: when he speaks, he lies, when he makes a promise he breaks it, and when he is entrusted with something he breaks that trust.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 32; Muslim, 89

That is why there are very strict guidelines.
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by frosbel(m): 11:06pm On Nov 23, 2011
^^^


While I envy your attempts to defend your religion, it is quite deceptive of you to keep twisting the facts, something which is typical of ISLAM.




Summary Answer:

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."

There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman.  These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them. 



The Qur'an:

Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves."

Qur'an (9:3) - ", Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters, "  The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture.  They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

Qur'an (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"  The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.

Qur'an (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths"

Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers."  The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means deceit.  If Allah is deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)
#

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.



From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'"  The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad's men after he "guaranteed" them safe passage (see Additional Notes below).

Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."  Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.

Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permissible in order to deceive an "enemy."

Muslim (32:6303) - ", he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)."

Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence.  The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad.  This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered despite putting up a ferocious struggle for his life.

From Islamic Law:

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) -  "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it.  When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory,  it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression,

"One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie.
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by frosbel(m): 11:06pm On Nov 23, 2011
Additional Notes:

Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them. The two forms are:

Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true.

Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind"wink while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief."

Though not called Taqiyya by name, Muhammad clearly used deception when he signed a 10-year treaty with the Meccans that allowed him access to their city while he secretly prepared his own forces for a takeover. The unsuspecting residents were conquered in easy fashion after he broke the treaty two years later, and some of the people in the city who had trusted him at his word were executed.

Another example of lying is when Muhammad used deception to trick his personal enemies into letting down their guard and exposing themselves to slaughter by pretending to seek peace. This happened in the case of Ka'b bin al-Ashraf (as previously noted) and again later against Usayr ibn Zarim, a surviving leader of the Banu Nadir tribe, which had been evicted from their home in Medina by the Muslims.

At the time, Usayr ibn Zarim was attempting to gather an armed force against the Muslims from among a tribe allied with the Quraish (against which Muhammad had already declared war). Muhammad's "emissaries" went to ibn Zarim and persuaded him to leave his safe haven on the pretext of meeting with the prophet of Islam in Medina to discuss peace. Once vulnerable, the leader and his thirty companions were massacred by the Muslims with ease, belying the probability that they were mostly unarmed, having been given a guarantee of safe passage (Ibn Ishaq 981).

Such was the reputation of Muslims for lying and then killing that even those who "accepted Islam" did not feel entirely safe. The fate of the Jadhima is tragic evidence for this. When Muslim "missionaries" approached their tribe one of the members insisted that they would be slaughtered even though they had already "converted" to Islam to avoid just such a demise. However, the others were convinced that they could trust the Muslim leader's promise that they would not be harmed if they simply offered no resistance. (After convincing the skeptic to lay down his arms, the unarmed men of the tribe were quickly tied up and beheaded - Ibn Ishaq 834 & 837).

Today's Muslims often try to justify Muhammad's murder of poets and others who criticized him at Medina by saying that they broke a treaty by their actions. Yet, these same apologists place little value on treaties broken by Muslims. From Muhammad to Saddam Hussein, promises made to non-Muslim are distinctly non-binding in the Muslim mindset.

Leaders in the Arab world routinely say one thing to English-speaking audiences and then something entirely different to their own people in Arabic. Yassir Arafat was famous for telling Western newspapers about his desire for peace with Israel, then turning right around and whipping Palestinians into a hateful and violent frenzy against Jews.

The 9/11 hijackers practiced deception by going into bars and drinking alcohol, thus throwing off potential suspicion that they were fundamentalists plotting jihad. This effort worked so well, in fact, that even weeks after 9/11, John Walsh, the host of a popular American television show, said that their bar trips were evidence of 'hypocrisy.'

The transmission from Flight 93 records the hijackers telling their doomed passengers that there is "a bomb on board" but that everyone will "be safe" as long as "their demands are met." Obviously none of these things were true, but these men, who were so intensely devoted to Islam that they were willing to "slay and be slain for the cause of Allah" (as the Qur'an puts it) saw nothing wrong with employing Taqiyya in order to facilitate their mission of mass murder.

The near absence of Qur'anic verse and reliable Hadith that encourage truthfulness is somewhat surprising, given that many Muslims are convinced that their religion teaches honesty. In fact, it is because of this ingrained belief that many Muslims are quite honest. When lying is addressed in the Qur'an, it is nearly always in reference to the "lies against Allah" - referring to the Jews and Christians who rejected Muhammad's claim to being a prophet.

Finally, the circumstances by which Muhammad allowed a believer to lie to a non-spouse are limited to those that either advance the cause of Islam or enable a Muslim to avoid harm to his well-being (and presumably that of other Muslims as well). Although this should be kept very much in mind when dealing with matters of global security, such as Iran's nuclear intentions, it is not grounds for assuming that the Muslim one might personally encounter on the street or in the workplace is any less honest than anyone else.


Article
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by tbaba1234: 12:09am On Nov 24, 2011
frosbel:

^^^


While I envy your attempts to defend your religion, it is quite deceptive of you to keep twisting the facts, something which is typical of ISLAM.




Summary Answer:

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."

There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman.  These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them. 



The Qur'an:

Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves."

Qur'an (9:3) - ", Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters, "  The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture.  They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

Qur'an (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"  The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.

Qur'an (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths"

Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers."  The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means deceit.  If Allah is deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)
#

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.



From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'"  The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad's men after he "guaranteed" them safe passage (see Additional Notes below).

Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."  Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.

Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permissible in order to deceive an "enemy."

Muslim (32:6303) - ", he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)."

Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence.  The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad.  This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered despite putting up a ferocious struggle for his life.

From Islamic Law:

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) -  "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it.  When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory,  it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression,

"One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie.


Your ignorance is pervasive:: Now let's quote each verse you have provided>> why didn't you quote the verses?

Qur'an (16:106) - 106. Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their bosom to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.

Now, where does it say you should lie? It simply says that if you uttered a word of disbelief because of being tortured or punished but your heart is firm: That God will forgive you:: Where does it say lie?? Stop clutching at straws, man,

Quran (3:28) 28. Let not the believers Take for auliya Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by
way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you [To remember] Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

Since you know nothing about the Arabic language let me help you,   Awliya is often times translated as "friend". Here i will give a proper understanding of the word and the context in which it was used.

The Quran is actually "THE QURAN", only when it is in the Arabic language and as such, there is no perfect translation. There are two reasons for this, one being the difference between the Latin based "English" and the Semitic based "Arabic." The second reason is a bit more in depth, that being, the Quran means "Allah's Recited Speech to Mankind in the Arabic language" (even then, this does not totally fulfill the whole meaning of "Quran."

Some of the words are arbitrarily translated into English words only because there were not enough choices in English.

Auliya carries a special meaning that must be interpreted according to the teachings of the Quran itself and the teachings of Muhammad, peace be upon him. friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), consider the following and then place them accordingly according to the sentence structure; 1. "protectors and confidents" 2. "intimate darlings" 3. "closest of confessors" 4. "dearest confidents" 5. "most trusted protectors" 6. "trusted guardians"

There are verses like this in the Quran, such as in chapter 5, verse 51 (Surah Al Ma'idah, 5) clearly instructing the Muslims to avoid taking on the Jews and Christians in positions of allies thereby replacing the allegience owed to Allah (see ref. surah Baqarah, 2:257) and thereby offer confidential authority or trusted guardianship (sometimes wrongly translated as "darlings"wink. The word "Auliya" has been simply translated as "friends" in the past, due to a lack of exact translation to English. However, the usage of such a simplistic term would be most inadequate when other verses talking about the relationships between Muslims, Christians and Jews are taken into considerations. This naturally necessitates a more in depth explanation and understanding of the term “auliya” when used in the context of the verse or verses.

Both at the time of revelation and in modern times, we can see clear evidence of what happens to the condition of the Muslims when they turn over control of government and place total confidence of the disposition of their affairs in the hands of others. From the evidences provided by Quran in Arabic and hadith (teachings of Muhammad, peace be upon him), we conclude the best interpretation of the word "waly" is "ally" and "auliya" is "allies." This clearly shows Muslims not to give their pledge of authority and leadership to other than Allah, even if it is to those who are the closest to the Muslims in their faith. See the reference to this relationship in surah Al Imran (3:110) and other places.

It must be mentioned however, this does not preclude assigning key positions to qualified individuals from the Jews and Christians when warranted. This is demonstrated at the time of the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and in the Islamic governments that followed after him, even up until the fall of the last Islamic empire under the Ottomans in 1922.

Quran 9:2-3

2.[i]Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, [as ye will], throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah [by your
falsehood] but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.

3. And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people [assembled]on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve
[treaty] obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a
grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
[/i]

If you read the ayah before, you would discover that the context of the verse is talking of existing treaties than existed between muslims and pagans. The treaties were not renewed at the end. Where is the lying here?

Ibn kathir say about this verse

This Ayah refers to idolators who had indefinite treaties and those, whose treaties with Muslims ended in less than four months. The terms of these treaties were restricted to four months only. As for those whose term of peace ended at a specific date later (than the four months), then their treaties would end when their terms ended, no matter how long afterwards.

So not renewing treaties that ended is lying?

Surah 40:28 28. A believer, a man from among the people of Pharaoh, who had concealed his faith, said: "Will ye slay a man because he says, 'My Lord is Allah'?- when hehas indeed come to you with Clear [Signs] from your Lord? and if he be a liar, on him is [the sin of] his lie: but, if he is telling the Truth, then will fall on you something of the [calamity] of which he warns you:[i] Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies!
[/i]

This verse warns people against lying? what is wrong with you?

Surah 2:224:225
224. And make not Allah's [name] an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; for Allah is One Who heareth and knoweth all things.
225. Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.


Basically, it says here that do not make an oath stop you from doing the right thing and making peace between people,  Because God knows your heart and your intentions.

Stop twisting verses man!!!

Surah 66: 1-2
1. O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most
Merciful.
2. Allah has already ordained for you, the dissolution of your oaths [in some cases]: and Allah is your Protector, and He is Full of Knowledge and
Wisdom.


Allah censures His Prophet for Prohibiting Himself from what He has allowed for Him In the Book ,  The prophet made an oath to stop taking honey, and God told him not to restrict from himself what God has made lawful for consumption the same goes for everyone::

How does this involve lying

Qur'an (3:54)
54. And [the unbelievers] plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

Basically, Man proposes and God disposes



Unfortunately you are too blinded by your hatred of islam to even read the verses you are quoting,  Stop making a fool of yourself ,  These are just ridiculous attempts to spread lies,

The position of lying in islam is simple,  DO NOT DO IT>>>> see my first post

Al-taquiya is only a concept in shia islam:::: The majority of muslims don't even know what that is,  Stop spreading misinformation.
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by frosbel(m): 12:15am On Nov 24, 2011
LIES , LIES and more LIES.
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by tbaba1234: 12:24am On Nov 24, 2011
frosbel:

LIES , LIES and more LIES.

See why there can't be an intellectual discussion with you, Too blinded by hate,
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by LagosShia: 1:10am On Nov 24, 2011
TAQIYYAH AND KITMAN IN THE BIBLE

Genesis 12:10-13
10 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to live there for a while because the famine was severe. 11 As he was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, “I know what a beautiful woman you are. 12 When the Egyptians see you, they will say, ‘This is his wife.’ Then they will kill me but will let you live. 13 Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you.”


2 Kings 9:10-15
“Hazael went to meet Elisha, taking with him as a gift forty camel-loads of all the finest wares of Damascus. He went in and stood before him, and said, "Your son Ben-Hadad king of Aram has sent me to ask, 'Will I recover from this illness?' " 10 Elisha answered, "Go and say to him, 'You will certainly recover'; but the LORD has revealed to me that he will in fact die." 11 He stared at him with a fixed gaze until Hazael felt ashamed. Then the man of God began to weep. 12 "Why is my lord weeping?" asked Hazael. "Because I know the harm you will do to the Israelites," he answered. "You will set fire to their fortified places, kill their young men with the sword, dash their little children to the ground, and rip open their pregnant women." 13 Hazael said, "How could your servant, a mere dog, accomplish such a feat?" "The LORD has shown me that you will become king of Aram," answered Elisha. 14 Then Hazael left Elisha and returned to his master. When Ben-Hadad asked, "What did Elisha say to you?" Hazael replied, "He told me that you would certainly recover." 15 But the next day he took a thick cloth, soaked it in water and spread it over the king's face, so that he died. Then Hazael succeeded him as king”.

Romans 3:7
“But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?”

Philippians 1:18
“But what does it matter? Nothing matters except that, in one way or another, people are told the message about Christ, whether with honest or dishonest motives, and I’m happy about that. [/u]Yes, I will continue to be happy.”

2Corinthians 12:16
“But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, [u]being crafty, I caught you with guile.“
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by frosbel(m): 1:30am On Nov 24, 2011
Romans 3:7
“But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?”

I will respond to just one of your quotes to prove how diabolically deceptive some muslims can be.

Romans 3 : 7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!

You just practised Taqiyya here to deceive the gullible.


Anyway I leave you to wallow in the rest of your lies.
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by tbaba1234: 1:37am On Nov 24, 2011
frosbel:

I will respond to just one of your quotes to proof how diabolically deceptive some muslims can be.

Romans 3 : 7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!

You just practised Taqiyya here to deceive the gullible.


Anyway I leace you to wallow in the rest of your lies.



That is like a kettle calling a pot black:: your lies/ignorance precede you.
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by LagosShia: 1:52am On Nov 24, 2011
frosbel:

I will respond to just one of your quotes to prove how diabolically deceptive some muslims can be.

Romans 3 : 7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!

You just practised Taqiyya here to deceive the gullible.


Anyway I leave you to wallow in the rest of your lies.



From today onward,FROSBEL is a big fool.you don’t even know what is in your bible…….sorry I meant bibles!!!

IT IS EVIDENT BELOW WHO IS NOT EVEN PLAYING TAQIYYAH BUT OUTRIGHTLY LYING AND CONCEALING WHAT IS WRITTEN IN HIS OWN BIBLE.HE IS CHOOSING THE VERSION WITH INTERPOLATION/ADDED WORDS TO MAKE A COVER-UP!!!SHAME ON YOU FROSBEL!!!

Romans 3:7

American Standard Version (ASV)
7 But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?


New International Version (NIV)
7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?”


King James Version (KJV)
7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

New World Translation
Yet if by reason of my lie the truth of God has been made more prominent to his glory, why am I also yet being judged as a sinner?
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by aloyemeka1: 2:10am On Nov 24, 2011
LagosShia:

From today onward,FROSBEL is a big fool.you don’t even know what is in your bible…….sorry I meant bibles!!!

IT IS EVIDENT BELOW WHO IS NOT EVEN PLAYING TAQIYYAH BUT OUTRIGHTLY LYING AND CONCEALING WHAT IS WRITTEN IN HIS OWN BIBLE.HE IS CHOOSING THE VERSION WITH INTERPOLATION/ADDED WORDS TO MAKE A COVER-UP!!!SHAME ON YOU FROSBEL!!!

Romans 3:7

American Standard Version (ASV)
7 But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?


New International Version (NIV)
7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?”


King James Version (KJV)
7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

New World Translation
Yet if by reason of my lie the truth of God has been made more prominent to his glory, why am I also yet being judged as a sinner?

Why are you clearly taking out verse 8 from that sentence?. Verse 8 completes the sentence started prior to verse 7. You are trying so hard to make a sentence out of a phrase. By the way, what has Christianity and the bible got to do with the fact that Allah instructs His followers to lie?. So, all the prophecy by Muhammad were probably deceptive as I have been suspecting. Why does Islam operate on covert deception?.

davidylan:

the epitome of islamic incompetence. They cant tackle the question raised on the thread so what do they resort to? You guessed right . . .

1. lie/twist the question
2. feigned anger
3. Insults
4. Desperate attempts to disparage the bible
5. Play the "bible is equally as bad" game
6. change the subject . . .
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by tbaba1234: 2:51am On Nov 24, 2011
aloy/emeka:

Why are you clearly taking out verse 8 from that sentence?. Verse 8 completes the sentence started prior to verse 7. You are trying so hard to make a sentence out of a phrase. By the way, what has Christianity and the bible got to do with the fact that Allah instructs His followers to lie?. So, all the prophecy by Muhammad were probably deceptive as I have been suspecting. Why does Islam operate on covert deception?.


I didn't bring Christianity/bible up, Why are you still emphasising that muslims are told to lie even after i proved that the evidence says otherwise?

Again i reiterate, there is no point where the quran/authenic hadith tells the muslim to lie, That is the default. God will however have mercy under certain strict conditions.

The Quran states , Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies! (Q40 28)

You guys are incredulous; you believe any lie spread about islam. There can't be a discussion with a door nail.
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by aloyemeka1: 3:20am On Nov 24, 2011
tbaba1234:

I didn't bring Christianity/bible up,  Why are you still emphasising that muslims are told to lie even after i proved that the evidence says otherwise?

Again i reiterate, there is no point where the quran/authenic hadith tells the muslim to lie,  That is the default. God will however have mercy under certain strict conditions.

The Quran states , Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies! (Q40 28)

You guys are incredulous; you believe any lie spread about islam. There can't be a discussion with a door nail.







I was talking about Lagossharia and not you besides, you didn't provide any contrary evidence, rather you confirmed the initial claim that Allah and Muhammad instructs their children to be deceptive as long as they are not deceiving fellow muslims. The watchword here is deception; if you notice the Nigerian Boko Haram senator who was arrested yesterday, he used the same deception as instructed by his Allah to fool Jonathan and the national assembly. Deception is perfectly normal to every muslim from what I understand here.
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by tbaba1234: 3:31am On Nov 24, 2011
aloy/emeka:

I was talking about Lagossharia and not you besides, you didn't provide any contrary evidence, rather you confirmed the initial claim that Allah and Muhammad instructs their children to be deceptive as long as they are not deceiving fellow muslims.

As long as they are not deceiving fellow muslims
Where did i list that condition

Lying is haraam in all cases,

The conditions are only applicable if that serves a greater purpose or wards off a greater harm. . Not if the person is not muslim??

The verse you listed:Qur'an (16:106) - Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their bosom to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.

Now, where does it say you should lie? It simply says that if you uttered a word of disbelief because of being tortured or punished but your heart is firm: That God will forgive you:: Where does it say lie?? Doesn't it show God's mercy?

Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."

A circumstance, in which a person is allowed to lie, is when you want to bring peace between 2 people. Again, does this seem like something evil? If two of your best friends were fighting, and the only way to bring a peace between both of them was to make something up, would you not do it? Of course you would, and many of you have done so.This is something very normal, and logical, and this is something any person would do. Your intention is not to cause problems; rather your intention is to cause good and peace, only a fool would argue saying to lie to make peace is bad. If a lie could bring peace and end wars, or blood-shed, or violence, would you not lie to end it and bring the peace? Only a fool   would say no.


Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “O you who believe! Fear Allaah, and be with those who are true (in words and deeds)” [al-Tawbah 9:119].

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I urge you to be truthful, for truthfulness leads to righteousness, and righteousness leads to Paradise. A man will continue to be truthful and seek to speak the truth until he is recorded with Allaah as speaker of truth (siddeeq). And beware of lying, for lying leads to immorality and immorality leads to Hell; a man will continue to tell lies until he is recorded with Allaah as a liar.”

And it was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood also said: Lying is not appropriate whether in earnest or in jest. Recite if you wish (interpretation of the meaning): “O you who believe! Fear Allaah, and be with those who are true (in words and deeds)” [al-Tawbah 9:119]. Then he said: Do you find any concession allowing that to anyone?

Muslims are not even permitted to lie in jest>,

Show me your evidence that says muslims are supposed to be deceptive when they are not fighting a war?

This will be my last comment because there is no discussion with you guys,  It is like talking to a door-knob,

The Quran states: "(7:199). Hold to forgiveness; command what is right; But turn away from the ignorant."
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by aloyemeka1: 4:31am On Nov 24, 2011
tbaba1234:

As long as they are not deceiving fellow muslims
Where did i list that condition



Did you say I?. The law has nothing to do with you babe. It was handed down to all muslims by Allah. So I do not depend on you to get information about what is written in the quran unless you are ulama who may want to interpret it differently. However, the law pretty much is not inexplicable, even a dolt will understand what Allah said there. Asalaam Alaikum!
 
 
Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by LagosShia: 9:38pm On Nov 24, 2011
aloy/emeka:

Why are you clearly taking out verse 8 from that sentence?. Verse 8 completes the sentence started prior to verse 7. You are trying so hard to make a sentence out of a phrase. By the way, what has Christianity and the bible got to do with the fact that Allah instructs His followers to lie?. So, all the prophecy by Muhammad were probably deceptive as I have been suspecting. Why does Islam operate on covert deception?.

you are funny but stu.pid people.it is really crazy that out of 5 verses from the bible supporting lying i presented,you are only clinging onto one and forgeting the other 47 Someone might argue

LagosShia:

TAQIYYAH AND KITMAN IN THE BIBLE

Genesis 12:10-13
10 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to live there for a while because the famine was severe. 11 As he was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, “I know what a beautiful woman you are. 12 When the Egyptians see you, they will say, ‘This is his wife.’ Then they will kill me but will let you live. 13 Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you.”


2 Kings 9:10-15
“Hazael went to meet Elisha, taking with him as a gift forty camel-loads of all the finest wares of Damascus. He went in and stood before him, and said, "Your son Ben-Hadad king of Aram has sent me to ask, 'Will I recover from this illness?' " 10 Elisha answered, "Go and say to him, 'You will certainly recover'; but the LORD has revealed to me that he will in fact die." 11 He stared at him with a fixed gaze until Hazael felt ashamed. Then the man of God began to weep. 12 "Why is my lord weeping?" asked Hazael. "Because I know the harm you will do to the Israelites," he answered. "You will set fire to their fortified places, kill their young men with the sword, dash their little children to the ground, and rip open their pregnant women." 13 Hazael said, "How could your servant, a mere dog, accomplish such a feat?" "The LORD has shown me that you will become king of Aram," answered Elisha. 14 Then Hazael left Elisha and returned to his master. When Ben-Hadad asked, "What did Elisha say to you?" Hazael replied, "He told me that you would certainly recover." 15 But the next day he took a thick cloth, soaked it in water and spread it over the king's face, so that he died. Then Hazael succeeded him as king”.

Romans 3:7
“But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?”

Philippians 1:18
“But what does it matter? Nothing matters except that, in one way or another, people are told the message about Christ, whether with honest or dishonest motives, and I’m happy about that. [/u]Yes, I will continue to be happy.”

2Corinthians 12:16
“But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, [u]being crafty, I caught you with guile.“




but all the same,i will continue with you as you like because i have the truth and you only follow falsehood.you ask me what has christianity and the bible got to do with this topic? well,someone like you who follows christianity and the bible and is infact explicitly commanded to lie does not have a case against islam to interprete Taqiyyah as lying or being dishonest.you should feel ashame.

as for romans 3,you asked us to take note of verse 8.indeed,we shall examine verse 8 and we shall also examine the entire chapter of romans 3 consisting of 31 verses and take special note to verses 4,7 and 8 and also verse 9-24 and let us see who is trying to play games here:


Romans 3
King James Version (KJV)


Romans 3
1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

8And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17And the way of peace have they not known:

18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Re: Taqiyya And Kitman: Are muslims permitted to lie? by frosbel(m): 10:59pm On Nov 24, 2011
Understanding Taqiyya ― Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah

by Warner MacKenzie

30 April, 2007

Lying and cheating in the Arab world is not really a moral matter but a method of safeguarding honor and status, avoiding shame, and at all times exploiting possibilities, for those with the wits for it, deftly and expeditiously to convert shame into honor on their own account and vice versa for their opponents. If honor so demands, lies and cheating may become absolute imperatives.” [David Pryce-Jones, “The Closed Circle” An interpretation of the Arabs, p4]

“No dishonor attaches to such primary transactions as selling short weight, deceiving anyone about quality, quantity or kind of goods, cheating at gambling, and bearing false witness. The doer of these things is merely quicker off the mark than the next fellow; owing him nothing, he is not to be blamed for taking what he can.” [David Pryce-Jones, “The Closed Circle”, p38]

The word "Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing, precaution, guarding.” It is employed in disguising one's beliefs, intentions, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions or strategies. In practical terms it is manifested as dissimulation, lying, deceiving, vexing and confounding with the intention of deflecting attention, foiling or pre-emptive blocking. It is currently employed in fending off and neutralising any criticism of Islam or Muslims.

Falsehoods told to prevent the denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned in the Qur'an and Sunna, including lying under oath in testimony before a court, deceiving by making distorted statements to the media such as the claim that Islam is a “religion of peace”. A Muslim is even permitted to deny or denounce his faith if, in so doing, he protects or furthers the interests of Islam, so long as he remains faithful to Islam in his heart. (See endnotes)

Like many Islamic practices, taqiyya was formed within the context of the culture of Arab tribalism, expansionary warfare, Bedouin raiding and inter-tribal conflict. Taqiyya has been used by Muslims since the 7th century to confuse, confound and divide 'the enemy’.

A favoured tactic was ‘deceptive triangulation’; used to persuade the enemy that preparations for a raid were not aimed at them but at another tribe altogether. The fate in store for the deceived enemy target was an unexpected plunderous raid, enslavement of the women and death to the post-pubescent males.

The core foundation of hyper-masculine Arab culture is bound up in perceptions of "honour and shame". At all times, he (it's usually a male) must avoid having his face "blackened" by words or actions which are a slight upon, a challenge or affront to, his status in the family or broader social / tribal group. To be open, frank and forthright or to make self-damning admissions in his dealings (particularly with the infidel enemy) is to leave himself open and vulnerable to humiliating shame and to the subsequent disrespect from his peers. Tongues will wag in the bazaar’s coffee shops and rumours will rapidly spread that so-and-so has lost his "manliness" and status. In short, he is no longer worthy of deferential respect; to an Arab, this is worse than death itself.

The higher one is placed in the social order (or rather, on how important the individual perceives himself to be), the more imperative it becomes to strenuously avoid “loss of face”. The male's perceived loss of honour and status, must be redressed and his face "whitened", i.e. his honour regained and restored, at any cost; even to the extent of (as in the honour killing of daughters) murdering the person “responsible” for causing the initial humiliation. When taqiyya is used to avoid making an admission or concession it is simply an essential means of ensuring that ones honour and standing remain intact and untarnished. Blood feuds and vendettas, caused by an ancient humiliation of a long dead ancestor, can persist, fuelled and propelled by shame and honour, for generations. Muhammad, who is promoted as every Muslim’s exemplar, set the precedent for vengeful retaliation when he ordered the murder of those who mocked or satirised him and, as he was an Arab, caused him potential loss of face. [See link, “Muhammad’s Dead Poets Society”]

Outwitting:

Islamic spokesmen commonly use taqiyya as a form of 'outwitting'. The skilled taqiyya-tactician doesn’t want the matter at hand to be debated or discussed; so his opponent must be outwitted or preemptively outflanked by the use of taqiyya. The objective is to divert attention away from the subject through duplicity and obfuscation.

The claim is often made that difficulties in translating from Arabic to English makes the meaning of what they say or write difficult or impossible to convey….this is simply another subterfuge. Keysar Trad has repeatedly claimed that Sheikh Hilali’s obnoxious, inflammatory and misogynistic comments have been “mistranslated”, misquoted or “taken out of context”. The aim of this ploy is to dilute or neutralise public opprobrium. The use of independent translators has, in the past, disproved his assertions. The Sheikh states what he believes to be correct according to Islamic precepts and his “interpreter” reconfigures the statement to make it palatable to the unwitting listener.

Consider the following statement by Mr. Trad on the February 24 2006.

Keysar Trad, president of the Islamic Friendship Association of Australia, told Reuters that Australian Muslims

agreed with Costello's (Australia’s Treasurer, Peter Costello) sentiments about being good, law abiding citizens.

"But to continually single out the Muslim community like this is very unhelpful, it's very divisive and it does stir up Islamophobia”,

Trad said.

"We're proud to be Australian and our religion strongly stipulates that if you make an oath, whether it's an oath of citizenship or any other oath, that you honour it, abide by it."

However, the Prophet Muhammad seems to have a different idea on the subject.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 67, Number 427:

“By Allah, and Allah willing, if I take an oath and later find something else better than that. Then I do what is better and expiate my oath.' "

Role playing as the victim:

When placed under scrutiny or criminal investigation, (even when there is overwhelming, irrefutable evidence of guilt or complicity), the taqiyya-tactician will quickly attempt to counter the allegation by resorting to the claim that it is, in fact, the accused who are the 'the victims'. Victims of Islamophobia, racism, religious discrimination and intolerance. Currently, this is the most commonly encountered form of distraction and 'outwitting'…, Defence by offence.

Manipulative ambiguity and Semantics:

Sheik Hilali and the late Yasser Arafat are both on public record as (a) 'condemning' the 9/11 attacks, in ambiguous terms, to the Western media and (b) praising suicide bombings, or “ martyrdom operations”, to their Arabic speaking audiences .

Islamic spokesmen will rarely unequivocally condemn a specific act of terrorism and direct questions will be skillfully evaded.

(NB: because Muslims regard Islamic attacks as “jihad”, and not terrorism, their spokesmen can truthfully deny any support for terrorism.)

Interviewers would be better advised to ask the more precise question “do you believe in jihad against the unbelievers?

However, a direct question requiring a simple "YES" or "NO" reply is rarely forthcoming and is usually deflected by responding with a tangentially irrelevant rejoinder or, in an attempt to neutralise the original question, counter-challenging with another question such as “are you in favour of killing children in Iraq?”…, Touché and Checkmate!

Diversion, deflection and "tu quoque”:

Questions relating to the 9/11 terrorist attacks will usually be diverted by either making outrageously wild conspiracy claims “the CIA did it to give the U.S. an excuse to attack Muslims,… Mossad was the perpetrator… No Jews came to work at the World Trade Centre on September 11” etc. or by making an irrelevant counter reference to “the plight of the Palestinians”,, Iraqis,, colonialism,, the crusades, or US foreign policy’s support for Israel” as the 'root causes' of terrorism.

Then, of course, there’s the ever popular, specious allegation that George Bush is a bigger terrorist than Osama bin Laden.

Diversionary “tu quoque” response ploys usually start with the words “but” or “what about…?” in an attempt to turn, and transfer an equal culpability back on their interlocutor.

Demanding 'evidence':

Islamic spokesmen practice a form of taqiyya defined in psychology as 'cognitive denial' by repetitive and persistent demands of 'where is the evidence!' and 'prove it!' whenever there is Muslim complicity in terrorist acts, evidence, which they know very well, for security or legal sub-judice restraints, can not be disclosed. If indeed the “evidence” were to be publicly presented, they would then move on to the familiar “prejudicial to the defendant receiving a fair trial--grounds for a mistrial” default position.

Tactical denial:

Rather than admitting that a proposition concerning a subject under discussion can be partly true, an Islamic spokesman will flatly deny a claim or proposition in absolute terms. For example, "It is impossible to be a Muslim and a terrorist”; this semantic argument is purely a matter of definition, because radical Islamists don’t define their violent attacks as terrorism, but jihad. (i.e. holy war in the way of Allah) .Another popular assertion is that 'Islam forbids suicide', which is true, but by virtue once again of definition, irrelevant, because suicide bombings are regarded as “martyrdom operations” and are therefore not forbidden, but on the contrary, admirable and praiseworthy. Muslim spokesmen are also fond of using extreme hyperbole. Their refutations regularly include the word “percent”. e.g. “I am 150% certain that Jews orchestrated September 11”…. “I guarantee the accused is 200% innocent”.

Exploiting cognitive dissonance:

Islamic spokesmen regularly perplex and baffle interviewers and their audiences as they resort to double talk, 'clichés and platitudes' concerning Islam. A state of cognitive dissonance (i.e. holding two contradictory beliefs and attempting to resolve them) is therefore induced in viewers and readers as they attempt to mentally process the claim that Islam is a peaceful religion despite the indisputable evidence before them of Islamist involvement in terrorist acts or criminal conduct.

The Islamic 'defence' script:

Islamic spokesmen repeat the same predictable duplicitous clichés concerning Islam in Europe, as do their counterparts in Australia and America. They appear to follow a well prepared script as they repeat "Islam is tolerant and peace loving”. In instances where they find themselves presented with, and cornered by, undeniable evidence that murderous radicals are indeed guilty as charged the spokesman will then fall back on the old chestnut that the culprits are only a “small minority” and not “true Muslims” anyway. Islamic spokeswomen use taqiyya when making the somewhat Orwellian claim that wearing the hijab, niqab, burqa etc. is “liberating” and “empowering”, and that, for reasons known only to them, these symbols of submissive exclusion offer them more freedom than Western women, thereby implying that women in Muslim countries are somehow 'freer' than women in the West. This ruse is designed to preclude further examination into the well documented inferior status of females in Islamic societies. Being put on the spot, and having to admit their true obedient and subservient status, would be embarrassing and therefore shame inducing so resorting to denial and exaggerative taqiyya is their only option.

There’s a common and oft repeated lie that “Islam” means peace”, it doesn’t, it translates as “submission” (to Allah).

Islamic falsehoods are echoed uncritically by Western politicians and other apologist dupes, for example "A small group of fundamentalists have hijacked a great and noble religion”. This timely, skilful, misleading and diversionary theme of the 'hijacking' of Islam was introduced into public, political and media discourse by an Islamic 'spokesman' in the United States shortly after the 9/11 terrorist attacks and has become an “accepted fact” repeated, ad nauseum, ever since.

The "Islam has been hijacked” myth is now a clichéd media and political reference which serves to deflect attention from the empirical proof of a fourteen hundred year continuity of the doctrinal, political and religious nature of Islamic jihad.

A related theme that “a small minority of Muslims are engaged in terrorism” is utterly irrelevant as terrorism is always perpetrated by 'small minorities' or more accurately small groups or cells. Surveys consistently reveal that between 10-15% of all Muslims sympathise with the aims and methodology of this radical strain of Islam which has been “hijacked”. This means, that within an estimated world population of 1.2 billion Muslims, there are 120-180 million people prepared to fund, facilitate and in general, give moral and financial assistance to the jihadists…, “a small minority”?, you decide!

The indisputable truth is that there has been no “hijacking” of Islam. Islamic extremists can, and do, find ample inspiration, justification and encouragement for their violent ideology in the Quran and Hadith.

Taqiyya as impressions and perception management

Pathos and the tactical use of children:

Australian television viewers may recall that interviews with terrorist suspects raided by ASIO (Australian Security Intelligence Organisation) and AFP (Australian Federal Police) frequently featured women in hijabs holding small children or a crying baby as they plaintively protested their husband's innocence and attested to his innate piety, decency and kind-hearted nature.

Trembling fingers and quavering voices pointed out damage, disruption and disarray to the family home. In some interviews the suspect / father holds the child, whilst denying any involvement in, or knowledge of, radicalism .

Sheikh Hilali’s daughter, in a newspaper interview, played the taqiyya pathos card by claiming that, because the cold northern winter was imminent, her father was travelling to Lebanon to “hand deliver” thousands of blankets to “orphanages” and homeless victims of the war between Israel and Hizbollah.

In the same Israel /Hezbollah war, a photojournalist filmed a Lebanese man, strewing, for the purpose of emotional impact, the contents of a large cardboard box full of children’s stuffed toys amongst the wreckage and debris. This was obviously for the benefit of a large contingent of international TV film crews who were about to be taken on a guided tour of the bombed buildings later that morning.

Photos of carefully placed baby’s bibs and dummies (pacifiers) also appeared to be extraordinarily abundant on the internet, as were “staged” photos of a “body” being removed from the piles of collapsed concrete. One sequence of photos clearly shows the “body” in question, alive and well, walking around with his “rescuers” before and after the “retrieval” of his dusty, “lifeless body”. This is taqiyya by imagery!

The above are examples of taqiyya in the age of impressions and perception management and are designed to, dupe, play on the emotions of, and elicit sympathy from, the compassionate, unwitting public.

Taqiyya and the Deceptive definition of Jihad:

The contemporary political meaning of jihad is clear: it is “Jihad of the sword” and not the peaceful internal struggle for spiritual improvement as their spin-doctors would have us believe. Islamic fundamentalists consider jihad to be the sixth pillar of Islam, a binding duty and integral to the faith. Claiming that Jihad is a subjective and psychological state to become a better person is taqiyya. In contemporary terms, Jihad means – HOLY WAR - against the unbelievers and it is in this context that Al Qaeda training manuals and other radical preachers use and refer to jihad.

The study of taqiyya is crucial to an understanding of Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism. Its use ranges from the issuing of false terrorist threats, operational and strategic disinformation issued by Al Qaeda in the form of 'intelligence chatter' for the purpose of throwing national defence groups into confusion. Terrorist in captivity resort to taqiyya during interrogation. It is most frequently used by Muslim 'spokesmen' whilst intentionally making misleading public statements concerning Islam and terrorism.

The Arabs have a story which exemplifies subtle, semantic dissimulation (taqiyya) perfectly. Legend has it that Mohammed’s nephew, son-in-law and future Caliph, Ali, was sitting on a stool outside his dwelling when one of his allies ran red-faced and gasping into the village and hid in Ali’s home. Perceiving that the man was being pursued, Ali promptly got up and sat on another nearby stool. A few minutes later, a group of angry pursuers ran into the encampment and asked Ali if he had seen the man they were pursuing. Ali responded with the statement “AS LONG AS I HAVE BEEN SITTING ON THIS STOOL I HAVE SEEN NO ONE”

This story demonstrates why nothing an Islamist says can be taken at face value. Every statement and utterance needs to be thoroughly analysed, or “unpacked”.

After yet another violent incident in Sydney, involving “Males of Middle-Easter Appearance”, a spokesman for the Muslim community appeared on a Sydney television evening newscast. In the brief soundbight he defensively declared “our religion teaches us that we must be kind to one another” ….and indeed it does, it simply depends on how we are to interpret the words “one another”, as these verses from the Quran demonstrate:

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. – (Q 48:25)

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.

Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers*. – (Q48:29)

So, was this spokesman lying?

Or was he telling the truth?

The answer is both, YES,… and NO! –Or, perhaps neither, and if you are confused by this apparent contradiction?,. You’re meant to be, because he was practising taqiyya; ……where the devil is ALWAYS in the detail.

* The precise identity of the “unbelievers” in the above references requires no further explanation.

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