Enigma:

^^^ And with these we begin to head in the direction of being able to unlock Jesus' statement 'except your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees . . . .'

In terms of "fastidiousness", whose "righteousness" can exceed that of the Pharisees? And in terms of "holiness" who is really "holy" (except in the sense of being set apart)?

Of course, the righteousness that exceeds the "righteousness" of the Pharisees is the righteousness of Christ.

So true.Let's shout it from the top of our roofs.

aletheia:

^
My, how you do like man-made labels. . ."Calvinist"? Why tie yourself up in knots?   I believe those labels prevent you from seeing beyond your preconceived notions.

Of course the soul that sins will die. That is the judgment pronounced on all men. . .for all have sinned.

But
. . .I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
[Rom 1:16-17]

The last six words in the verse above are as OT as the one in your post above.

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. [Rom 10:3]

God's righteousness is bestowed upon those who have acknowledged their sins, felt godly sorrow and repented of these sins.

Only then do we become the righteousness of God in Christ. We are saved by grace through faith in our understanding that God has forgiven our sins through the blood that was poured out , by the sacrificial death of Christ Jesus. This in essense is the atonement.

After this great miracle, we are then required to move on to perfection and not to draw back unto perdition. There is mention that not a hint of intimate immoraility should be seen in our lives after this 'born again ' experience. We begin to show outward our inward faith , by obedience to the word of God and living holy lives.

There are instances however ( increasingly so ) that cause believers to fall into some sin or the other, at this stage there is hope. Forgiveness and repentance are the key. But if this sin becomes a habit , the bible says quite explicitly that "their latter end is worse than the beginning" , akin to a dog returning to it's vomit.

We are either progressing unto salvation or regressing back to destruction.

The righteouness of God is ONLY for the former.

It is deceptive to suggest that they were never of us, as John was here referring to true believers, who like Judas were saved, but went back into sin. Hence their hearts were never in it ( the race ) in the first place.

I have see first hand many Christians shipwreck their faith due to one vice or the other.

Let us not presume upon the mercy and grace of God.

frosbel:


Justification by Faith is only the first half and for SALVATION.

But faith without works is dead.

To suggest that because Christ has forgiven us our sins, we are now free to indulge the flesh at will is False.

We are ONLY saved if we endure to the end and hold on to our faith.

Imputed Righteousness is a false doctrine.

So, in your estimation, the second half is by works? Can the whole of salvation be by grace , while a part is by works?

^^

2Peter 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Only those who endure to the end will be saved.

There is an enduring to be acted out as a measure of our patience in reaction to the diverse temptations and tribulation of the saints.

"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." - Acts 14:22

Our part is quite simple, abide in the Vine.

Any branch that does not abide, is cut off , withers and ends up in the fire.

Let me end with this verse of scripture :

[b]1st Cor 6:9-1[/b]0 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

God is no respecter of persons !

A thousand words but no answer to my question.

[Quote]

Romans 11

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.[/b]
[/Quote]

The above verses are a complete refutation of salvation by faith and works.

^

You were obviously not reading !

Read what I wrote again.

Nite Nite.

frosbel:

^

You were obviously not reading ! 

Read what I wrote again.

Nite Nite.

I can't understand this post, be more explicit when next you post.
Also your post (#5) needs some clarification in the light of this one.
Bye, for now.

aletheia:

Any one who continues to sin after being "born again" deceives himself and was not born again to start with.

com'oon, how can you say a thing like this? The person could have been sincere in his/her decision to become born again. What i read you say is that only those that made it to heaven were actually saved at the time they took the decision to become born again. It's like working from the answer to the question I don't think there would have been a need for series of letters written by the Apostles to the early Christians, there will be no need for the pastors to preach on Sundays. If the apostles did a good job of making a true born again out of unbelievers, there will be no need for the reminders, exhortations e.t.c

aletheia:

So a "born-again" man who somehow dies and goes to hell has been lost. . .meaning God was simply unable to save him, contrary to what scripture teaches.

What do you expect? if the man refuse to submit himself for salvation nko salvation no be by force na

frosbel:

It is deceptive to suggest that they were never of us, as John was here referring to true believers, who like Judas were saved, but went back into sin. Hence their hearts were never in it ( the race ) in the first place.

Thank you jare

Zikkyy:

com'oon, how can you say a thing like this? The person could have been sincere in his/her decision to become born again.

A sincere decision to become born again will not save one. He needs to be given a new nature by God. The 1st chapter of John demolishes this premise of yours that one can decide to become born again? To put it in human terms: did you decide that your parents should give birth to you.

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [Joh 1:13]

That sincere decision to become born again falls under the will of the flesh, the will of man

frosbel:

. . .who like Judas were saved, but went back into sin. Hence their hearts were never in it ( the race ) in the first place.

^So Judas was saved?. . .No. Here is what Jesus said:
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. [Joh 6:70-71]
According to Jesus: Judas Iscariot was a devil. . .are devils saved?

frosbel:

It is deceptive to suggest that they were never of us, as John was here referring to true believers

^But the verses are plain enough: if they were true believers ab initio, can you explain these underlined words:
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 Jn 2:19
You say they were "true believers" but John's words shows otherwise:
1. they were not of us: if they were "true believers", they would be of us.
2. if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: if they were "true believers", they would have continued with us.
3. their leaving us makes it evident that they were not of us and therefore not "true believers" to start with.
The meaning and language is clear but your doctrinal lenses distort the meaning.
Even the OT account of Israel out of Egypt provides a typology of this very situation.
And [i][b]a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle. [Exo 12:38][/b][/i]

frosbel:

After this great miracle, we are then required to move on to perfection and not to draw back unto perdition. There is mention that not a hint of intimate immoraility should be seen in our lives after this 'born again ' experience. We begin to show outward our inward faith , by obedience to the word of God and living holy lives.

^
I would respectfully ask you to consider the meaning of these words of yours: We begin to show outward our inward faith , by obedience to the word of God and living holy lives. Even these tell you that habitual willful disobedience means there is no inward faith to start with.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [1 Jn 3:9]

Two earlier posts from December 5. . .

#1

---

Zikkyy:

So what is our role in the process? How then do we get to the state/stage that makes us eligible for this gift? this implies that we should not be held responsible for our actions if we don't have a say in the process.

It is God's sovereign choice. Just as you did not decide for your parents that you should be born; even so we have no input into being born from above. Or how do you read John 1:13. If it says born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.. . .what then can be our role in the process?

Zikkyy:

. . .this implies that we should not be held responsible for our actions if we don't have a say in the process.

Some might chose to reason that way. And Christians have struggled with this through the ages. But there are pertinent Bible verses that speak to this issue. . . .For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:23
Since it's a gift and unearned; nothing we do can be sufficient payment for eternal life.

Consider this:

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:28-30

When we truthfully examine ourselves, can we say in all conscience that we have loved the Lord God with all our heart, and with all our soul, and with all our mind, and with all our strength. There have been times when our minds wandered, our hearts faltered and our strength waned (including today). . .at such times weren't we in transgression of this command. And being in transgression of this command everyday of our lives (because our love for God is not perfect), what can save us except the atoning blood of Jesus?

Also prayerfully consider the following words:

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Rom 9:13-16

Zikkyy:

This assumes that Christians are designed to function like robots. So what about the people being addressed in the James letter? If the ability for good works have been hard-coded into their DNA, then there won't be need for James writings.

Not robots. Christians are saved. That is the critical distinction. When a child is born. . .the neural pathways that will enable him to walk and run are present, but it needs to learn how to walk and run from the examples of others around him. Barring any untoward incident, the child will walk. He has to. And that's how it is with the Christian. He has been transformed. Dying in Christ and being born anew with a new, divine and holy nature. What is written in James etc are exhortations, reminders, examples for Christians to see and learn from. . .which is why the word "grow" occurs in the Bible.

As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:2
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:14-15

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:11
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Rom 15:4

And so it is with the Christian. Like a newborn babe he is created by the Father. . .and like the newborn he needs to learn to walk in holiness. It is the walk in holiness that is characterized as works. . .but we know that this only arises because he has been made holy.

Still using the illustration of the child. He is dressed in a clean white robe which has already been washed spotless. He puts it on and goes out into the daily grind amidst admonitions to keep it unsoiled (what we see in scriptures). The truth is that the child's best efforts (his works) cannot keep the robe clean, rather only the One who cleaned it can keep it spotless.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:5

#2

---

Zikkyy:

You made a distinction between 'genuine faith' and other type of 'faith' here. I hope you don't mind my asking, what makes a faith genuine? I am just trying to understand how it links up with the second bit of the post (i.e. "then the God-ordained works of righteousness will follow".

The answer lies in the origin or source of that faith. Genuine faith comes from God as a gift. It cannot be willed into existence by men. So we see. . .

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Rom 12:3

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Eph 4:7

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:12-13

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:37

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:37

And so when you consider the parable of the wheat and tares. . .

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:24

The seed did not sow themselves but the man (representing Jesus Christ) sowed [size=14pt]good[/size] seed. The bearing of [size=14pt]good[/size] fruit (representing works) is hard-coded into the [size=14pt]good[/size] seed's DNA. The seed therefore has no choice but has a genetic imperative to bear [size=14pt]good[/size] fruit.

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:37-38

Since it is the Son of Man that sows the good seed; whence comes the men claiming responsibility for the faith they possess. We understand from scripture that no one is good except God.

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Mar 10:18

We are therefore given to understand that He is the source of the good seed. And even more directly we see. . .

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 15:16

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:4-5

For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 2:11

. . .it says "they who are sanctified" (some versions read: "he who makes holy and those who are made holy". How does He make holy? I believe you know the answer to that. As Jesus told Nicodemus: You must be born again.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 2:20-21

aletheia:

A sincere decision to become born again will not save one. He needs to be given a new nature by God. The 1st chapter of John demolishes this premise of yours that one can decide to become born again?

I don't know why you keep doing this to me You take a position on my behalf and argue against it I can't remember saying one is saved based on any decision

aletheia:

A sincere decision to become born again will not save one. He needs to be given a new nature by God.

We know the decision will not save, it's a part of the process, a step in the right direction.

aletheia:

The 1st chapter of John demolishes this premise of yours that one can decide to become born again?

So how do one become born again? what is the process like? Don't avoid this question ooh i need response from you.

aletheia:

To put it in human terms: did you decide that your parents should give birth to you.

No basis for comparison here. There was previously no form of existence prior to physical birth. If there was and people were given the ability to reason, nobody will want to come through a family in mushin or ajegunle, not when you have the rich options like Bill Gates, Buffet, Dangote, Otedola, GEJ, even pastor oyedepo

aletheia:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [Joh 1:13]

That sincere decision to become born again falls under the will of the flesh, the will of man

Yes, they were born of the will of God, no wahala. You referred to John 1:13 also consider John 1:11-12

John 1:11-12 (KJV)
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12[b]But as many as received him[/b], to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

So my question is this; who makes the decision to receive or not to receive him?

aletheia:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [1 Jn 3:9]

One question; is it possible for somebody that is born of God to disown him/her self, to enable him engage in those activities the father would not permit I need answers oooh don't avoid this one.

Zikkyy:

I don't know why you keep doing this to me You take a position on my behalf and argue against it I can't remember saying one is saved based on any decision

^Will you please clarify this:

Zikkyy:

The person could have been sincere in his/her decision to become born again.

---

Zikkyy:

We know the decision will not save, it's a part of the process, a step in the right direction.

So how do one become born again? what is the process like? Don't avoid this question ooh i need response from you.

^The process has zero input from us:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. [Joh 3:6-8]

Zikkyy:

No basis for comparison here. There was previously no form of existence prior to physical birth. If there was and people were given the ability to reason, nobody will want to come through a family in mushin or ajegunle, not when you have the rich options like Bill Gates, Buffet, Dangote, Otedola, GEJ, even pastor oyedepo

^
Good. Now look at the part bolded above. The spiritual parallel is this: We were spiritually dead before being created anew. Can a dead man will himself to life?

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved [Eph 2:5]

Zikkyy:

Yes, they were born of the will of God, no wahala. You referred to John 1:13 also consider John 1:11-12

John 1:11-12 (KJV)
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12[b]But as many as received him[/b], to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

So my question is this; who makes the decision to receive or not to receive him?

^
He came unto his own, and his own received him not<<===The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? [Joh 6:41-42]

So my question is this; who makes the decision to receive or not to receive him?<<===Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, [size=14pt]EXCEPT[/size] THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day. [Joh 6:43-44]

Do you see the answer to your question: NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, [size=14pt]EXCEPT[/size] THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME DRAW HIM

Zikkyy:

One question; is it possible for somebody that is born of God to disown him/her self, to enable him engage in those activities the father would not permit I need answers oooh don't avoid this one.

^
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [Gal 5:24]

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [1 Jn 3:8-9]

Note the underlined portions above. So the Bible's answers your question. Some one who is born of God will not "disown him/her self, to enable him engage in those activities the father would not permit. Any one who"disowns him/her self, to enable him engage in those activities the father would not permit" deceives him/her self, and was never born again to start.

So you use the phrase: born of God. You do understand that this means we are partakers of the divine nature through Jesus Christ. God does not sin and thus partakers of his divine nature, of God's righteousness are not a party to sin. This is manifestly clear in John's epistle:
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Also consider these OT verses:
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

aletheia:

^Will you please clarify this:

To acknowledge your sin and need of salvation.

aletheia:

The process has zero input from us:

aletheia:

Do you see the answer to your question: NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, [size=14pt]EXCEPT[/size] THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME DRAW HIM

No one dispute the fact that no man can come to Christ except the father draw him. How you interpret that verse is what I want to understand. Nobody argues the fact that eternal life is a gift (beyond our control). One cannot come to Christ except he is drawn by the Father. What are the criteria for one to be eligible? Is the selection arbitrary? Yes God can influence our decisions, but does it take away our ability to make choices? My interpretation of your post is this; it is God that determines those that will ultimately believe and those that will die in unbelief.

I need your thoughts on the following instances where we find a display of belief/faith:

Matthew 9:21-22 (KJV)
21For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole. 22But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

The woman was made ‘whole’ base on her faith. Was the woman pushed to exercising such faith or was it a conscious decision or both?

Matthew 9:28-29 (KJV)
28And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.  29Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

If it was God deciding those that will believe, do you think there would really be a need for Christ wanting confirmation?

Consider the case of the Centurion below

Luke 7:9(KJV)
  9When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Why should Jesus marvel at the display of faith? He should know it was not of the Centurions doing

Consider the verse (below) from John 14

John 14:1(KJV)
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

It appears that disciples can still make conscious decision. What do you think?

Also consider Cornelius . . .

. . . . . . 2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. Acts 10:2 (KJV)

Do you think Cornelius was operating on auto pilot/cruise control?

Peter made reference to the case of Cornelius in Act 15 (below)

Acts 15:7-8 (KJV)
7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.  8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

Help me out here, what is Peter saying when he stated “and God, which knoweth the hearts . . . “

Consider also the case of the jailer

Acts 16:30-34(KJV)
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. 34And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

The question in verse 30, can we say it was not the jailer talking, or say it was not of his own desire to be saved? Why would the apostles tell him to believe if the jailer has no control over such act?

Paul before King Agrippa (below). . . . .

Acts 26:17-18 (KJV)
17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Paul was sent to the Gentiles to open their eyes. How?

aletheia:

Good. Now look at the part bolded above. The spiritual parallel is this: We were spiritually dead before being created anew. Can a dead man will himself to life?

I believe your question should be "can a spiritually dead man will himself to life?". We are discussing choice and not the outcome of the choice. 'Willing himself to life' implies control over the outcome of the choice.

Zikkyy:

We are discussing choice and not the outcome of the choice. 'Willing himself to life' implies control over the outcome of the choice.

OK. Can a dead man chose anything?

I 'll respond to the other post later.

Zikky thanks a million for defending the faith that was once delivered unto the saints.

Calvinism abdicates a believer from his responsibility of living a holy life and pleasing God. In essence we become robots , incapable of choosing right from wrong, God does it all for us, we are just babies to milk our father dry and give nothing in return to show our loyalty or appreciation.

It is strange that people actually follow Calvin who was a murderer and also Tyrant in direct contrast to the teachings of Christ Jesus.

I will rather follow Jesus than all these isms that complicate the simplistic message of salvation.

^
It seems you are hung up on labels. "Calvinism'! Calvin is not the focus of discussion here but rather the Scriptures - so I fail to see of what relevance are his alleged crimes. Please respond to the verses put up and stop muddying the waters by bandying man-made labels. . .that seems to be your new tactic seeing as your first line of propping up straw men doesn't seem to be working.

Didn't you say Judas was "saved". Do you still stick to that position?

Now please explain these verses and stop hiding behind labels:
I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. [Joh 17:6]

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. [Joh 6:37]
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [Joh 6:39]

Clearly we have established that no man can come to Jesus except the Father draws him. Since it is the Father that draws men to Jesus; whence comes personal effort? It is of no effect because the natural, carnal mind is at enmity with God and unless God directly intervenes no man will be saved. The reason we struggle with this is because we have a romanticized view of sin. . .not realizing that unsaved men are dead and enthralled to sin and cannot come to faith unless God intervenes in their hearts.

Moreover the verses above directly show that:
1. All that come to Jesus are given to Him by the Father out of the world.
2. All that come to Jesus cannot be lost by him

Note the second point which comes directly from John 6:39: Since all that come to Jesus cannot be lost by him. Why then do you suggest that some truly born-again children of God can be lost by Jesus. . .especially when John in his letter affirms that:
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [1 Jn 3:8-9]
I notice how you have avoided addressing this verse. Come on, tell us what you understand by 1 John 3:9. It says: he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

aletheia:

^
It seems you are hung up on labels. "Calvinism'! Calvin is not the focus of discussion here but rather the Scriptures - so I fail to see of what relevance are his alleged crimes. Please respond to the verses put up and stop muddying the waters by bandying man-made labels. . .that seems to be your new tactic seeing as your first line of propping up straw men doesn't seem to be working.

John Calvin was not a good role model !

Anyway  let us go back to the scriptures as you mentioned.

Didn't you say Judas was "saved". Do you still stick to that position?

imo, Judas was saved , in the sense that he was among the disciples that went preaching from house to house, city to city ,  but also casting out demons and healing the sick.

Now please explain these verses and stop hiding behind labels:
I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. [Joh 17:6]

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. [Joh 6:37]
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [Joh 6:39]

Clearly we have established that no man can come to Jesus except the Father draws him. Since it is the Father that draws men to Jesus; whence comes personal effort? It is of no effect because the natural, carnal mind is at enmity with God and unless God directly intervenes no man will be saved. The reason we struggle with this is because we have a romanticized view of sin. . .not realizing that unsaved men are dead and enthralled to sin and cannot come to faith unless God intervenes in their hearts.

Moreover the verses above directly show that:
1. All that come to Jesus are given to Him by the Father out of the world.
2. All that come to Jesus cannot be lost by him

We agree that it is GOD that draws men to himself through the Holy Spirit, but how ?

When we preach the word of God to a soul, the Holy Spirit waters that word and brings conviction of sin, righeousness and judgement.

The light of Christ is shed into the heart of such a person, revealing their deplorable state of sin and utter need of a saviour.

The individual has 2 options :

1. Refuse to repent of sin and continue on the broadway of sin.

2. Repent of sin and is baptised into the body of Christ and walk on the narrow path to eternal life.


Regarding option 2, this individual can after a while when things get rough , draw back to perdition as mentioned by beloved brother Paul and the second by Christ himself.

Consider very carefully the following verses of scripture :

"And my righteous ones will live by faith. But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away. But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved " - Hebrews 10: 38-39

"Then Jesus said to them, “, some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy.  But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19 but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown.” - Mark 4:13-20

Note the second point which comes directly from John 6:39: Since all that come to Jesus cannot be lost by him. Why then do you suggest that some truly born-again children of God can be lost by Jesus. . .especially when John in his letter affirms that:
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [1 Jn 3:8-9]
I notice how you have avoided addressing this verse. Come on, tell us what you understand by 1 John 3:9. It says: he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Again , those who abide in Jesus Christ can never be lost. For us to be lost we have to wilfully turn away from Christ and back to sin, even at that , God still gently strives with us through the Holy Spirit for repentance, but if we continually spur his good gestures we will be lost eternally.

"Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me . Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned." - John 15:4 & 6

And it is funny that you mentioned the first part of that statement regarding a Child of God not sinning and left out the complete sentence.

Let us examine the entire context :

"the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3 :8-9

Here we see clearly that if a believer who was once in victory over sin, backslides into perpetual sin, the Holy Spirit leaves him and he becomes of the devil.

Finally to wrap this up, examine the following verses.

"Now when the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and does not find it."Then it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came'; and when it comes, it finds it unoccupied, swept, and put in order.Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation." Matthew 12 : 43-45

"Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe."- Jude 1:5

Stumbled on this thread. A quick reading, it was a blessing.

5solas:
The world hates this doctrine, as it hates that of Justification By Faith, Without Works.

You should worry less about the world that you are actually a part of since you cling to the doctrines and traditions of men instead of the teachings of Jesus Christ.