This is not an attack on Christianity so please do not take it as such. I hope i can learn from you.

I would prefer logical answers based on your scripture (Jesus sayings preferably).

If Jesus(AS) comes today, would he recognize even the most devout christian as his follower? Are you really christ-like?

1. Jesus said:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus lived like a Jew and followed the laws meaning

i. He did not eat pork
ii. He did not consume Usury
iii. He prayed like an orthodox jew three times a day

To mention  a few,

But christians have abandoned all of that today or at least most of it. Christian Churches still collect tithes which was part of the Law.

Who decides what part of the law to adopt? Are you not supposed to be like christ? Are the actions of Jesus Unimportant? Is the Old testament a forgotten book? Why is it that parts of the law like avoiding usury was practiced by early christians but has been effectively abandoned now? Do you drop the laws as you move along?

2. Jesus makes statements throughout the new testament that shows some kind of vulnerability, why does it seem like Christians ignore him? and ascribe qualities he denied to him.

3. Paul never met Jesus and there were many doctrines of Christianity during his time. The roman empire adopted Paul's doctrine,  That is why it is followed by most Christians today.

Question: what if another doctrine was adopted by the roman empire? Paul essentially abolished the law,  So how do we know it was the will of Jesus or his message adopted by the romans was the right message?  How can you convince Us of that?

Would you say honestly say that Christianity today was started by Jesus or by Paul?

I would like a useful discussion, so let's engage,

Jesus lived like a Jew and followed the laws meaning

i. He did not eat pork

Where is it mentioned that Jesus did not eat pork, show me where this is in the bible.?

Matthew 15:10-20 - Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.” Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. Leave them; they are blind guides.[d] If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”


Peter’s Vision

Acts 10 : 9 - 17 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
“Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.” [/b]The voice spoke to him a second time, [b]“Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven. While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon’s house was and stopped at the gate. 18 They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.


Jesus Christ hit the nail on the head when he said the emphasis is on the purity of the heart of man and not his outward actions.

Imagine you eat pork and pass it out as dung after the digestive process has run it's course, no big deal , what impact does it have on your character , for example , does it make you a less righteous person for eating pork, does it make you less kind, less humble or less loving.

NO is the answer.

Many liars , thieves, perverts , murderers and so and so forth, refuse to eat pork, yet they will not hesitate to take a live at the slightest provocation or tell a lie or even steal.

For Jesus who saw through the human heart, the crux of the matter was the heart, outward works meant nothing and were at best hypocritical. When I say outward works, I mean praying 3 times a day like the Jews did, washing of hands, rejecting certain meats etc.

If you also apply this to the story of Peter's vision, you see quite clearly that Christ rebuked Peter for calling the so called impure meals as unclean.

ii. He did not consume Usury

Absolutely !!!

In fact Jesus Christ chased out the money changers from the temple and constantly rebuked lovers of money and covetous people.

"He who does not put out his money at usury, Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved." (Psalm 15:5)

"One who increases his possessions by usury and extortion Gathers it for him who will pity the poor." (Proverbs 28:8 )

Christians do not practise usury is the implied meaning here.

You have to differentiate this from the laws of the state and the banking sector ethics which are all based on secular , non-religious principles.

With this in mind, a business does not exist for charity but to make money, so if these secular banks charge a reasonable interest to it's customers for a profit, i see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Jesus never denied his jewish identity.

What he said was he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfil it.

Others who are not jews either by birth or by conversion, still have a place in his plan.

Physical practices arent necessarily what constitutes religion. Your heart is more important because that's what determines your actions.

Not everyone can understand these things.

iii. He prayed like an orthodox jew three times a day

Again , how do you know that Jesus prayed 3 times a day like the Jews, this is your verdict on unsubstantiated facts.

How did Christ teach is to pray :

Matthew 6:5-13 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.  But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.


“This, then, is how you should pray:

“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.[b]’


In other words, we do not have to face Jerusalem or Mecca to pray , we do not have to pray in public places for all to see , we do not have to keep repeating certain verses or passages of scripture, we simply go into our closets and pray to God.

You will do well to learn the Lord's prayer above.

tbaba12345:


But christians have abandoned all of that today or at least most of it. Christian Churches still collect tithes which was part of the Law.

Indeed and that is why you see so many articles on here rebuking such teaching.

Who decides what part of the law to adopt? Are you not supposed to be like christ? Are the actions of Jesus Unimportant? Is the Old testament a forgotten book? Why is it that parts of the law like avoiding usury was practiced by early christians but has been effectively abandoned now? Do you drop the laws as you move along?

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." - Matthew 5:17

The old testament is a pointer to Christ Jesus and is therefore perfectly valid.

2. Jesus makes statements throughout the new testament that shows some kind of vulnerability, why does it seem like Christians ignore him? and ascribe qualities he denied to him.

Example please

3. Paul never met Jesus and there were many doctrines of Christianity during his time. The roman empire adopted Paul's doctrine,  That is why it is followed by most Christians today.

he did , on the road to Damascus

Question: what if another doctrine was adopted by the roman empire? Paul essentially abolished the law,  So how do we know it was the will of Jesus or his message adopted by the romans was the right message?  How can you convince Us of that?

how did Paul abolish the Law , explain.

Would you say honestly say that Christianity today was started by Jesus or by Paul?

Christianity was a name, derogatory in nature used to refer to Christians in the early church.

Let us just say , Jesus Christ came to save mankind from sin and not to start another religion.

But since we are referred to as Christians because we follow Christ , no qualms with that.

Paul did not start Christianity , Jesus did.

















[quote][/quote]

I dont even think Jesus prayed three times a day.

He prayed as often as he thought necessary and once embarked on a forty day fast.

He also went on retreats by himself.

Just before he was crucified, he withdrew somewhere to pray and his disciples were sleeping, so he prayed alone. No mention of any set times.

And where exactly in the old testament is it specified to pray three times a day.

Just curious.

tpia@:

And where exactly in the old testament is it specified to pray three times a day.

Just curious.

Only once.


"Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before." - Daniel 6:10

But trust our brother to generalise it for all Jews  .

Do they even read the bible like we read their Quran, nope , they regurgitate what their Imams tell them.

tbaba12345 we are waiting ooooo

Jesus was a koroko Jew. and it was a shame on the family for Jewish men not to get married. An unmarried jewish man had no friends, and no company. So Jesus had to marry Mary Magdalene.

Paul is just like these Pastors of nowadays (Adeboye, Ofedepo, Oyakhilome etc). Paul created his own doctrine from excitement. You can see that today many christians have conflicting issues between Jesus teachings and Paul's doctrine.

frosbel:

Where is it mentioned that Jesus did not eat pork, show me where this is in the bible.?

Matthew 15:10-20 - Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.” Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. Leave them; they are blind guides.[d] If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them.  “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, intimate immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.  These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”


Peter’s Vision

Acts 10 : 9 - 17 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray.  He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance.  He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
“Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.” [/b]The voice spoke to him a second time, [b]“Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven. While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon’s house was and stopped at the gate. 18 They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.


Jesus Christ hit the nail on the head when he said the emphasis is on the purity of the heart of man and not his outward actions.

Imagine you eat pork and pass it out as dung after the digestive process has run it's course, no big deal , what impact does it have on your character , for example , does it make you a less righteous person for eating pork, does it make you less kind, less humble or less loving.

NO is the answer.

Many liars , thieves, perverts , murderers and so and so forth, refuse to eat pork, yet they will not hesitate to take a live at the slightest provocation or tell a lie or even steal.

For Jesus who saw through the human heart, the crux of the matter was the heart, outward works meant nothing and were at best hypocritical. When I say outward works, I mean praying 3 times a day like the Jews did, washing of hands, rejecting certain meats etc.

If you also apply this to the story of Peter's vision, you see quite clearly that Christ rebuked Peter for calling the so called impure meals as unclean.

The verses prohibiting swine are as follows

"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you".

"Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you."
[Leviticus 11:7-8]

Pork is also prohibited in the Bible in the book of Deuteronomy

"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass."
[Deuteronomy 14:8]

It is very unlikely that Jesus broke these laws because we see in Acts, that some kinds of meat was avoided by his followers:

Acts 15:29

You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things

Now the bible didn't state that  he did eat pork but an educated guess would suggest he didn't.

Let's look at the passage shall we? (New James Version)

Jesus' disciples are condemned  for not washing their hands
Mat 15:1  Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Mat 15:2  Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
Mat 15:3  But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Jesus does not accept the traditions of the scribes and pharisees
Mat 15:4  For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5  But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6  And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7  Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8  This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Jesus condemns the scribes and Pharisees tradition with a parable,
Mat 15:10  And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
Mat 15:11  Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Mat 15:12  Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
Mat 15:13  But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Mat 15:14  Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Jesus explains his parable
Mat 15:15  Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
Mat 15:16  And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
Mat 15:17  Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18  But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19  For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20  These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

So did Jesus make previously unclean food clean by this passage?

No, He was talking of eating with unclean hands.

The abolishment of the biblically unclean foods prohibitions was simply not under discussion in the context of the passage. It was simply about a tradition of eating with unclean hands.

The disciples of Jesus were condemned by the scribes and pharisees for not washing their hands, They implied that they were defiled  because they did not follow the tradition of their elders. Jesus rebuked the scribes and Pharisees, saying that nothing a man puts into his mouth defiles the heart, defilement which He defined as "evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, [and] blasphemies". The scribes and Pharisees, and Jesus, were speaking on two entirely different levels, the scribes and Pharisees were concerned with the cleanliness of the hands, and Jesus the cleanliness of the heart.

So this has nothing to do with the prohibition of Pork, Jesus would have been called a heretic there if  he  was talking about the laws of food .

Even in the vision by peter his response was "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean" (Acts 10:14)

Meaning years after Jesus, he maintained and kept the law,

God made the food laws for a reason, I am sure you agree that Obedience is a big part of righteousness,

frosbel:

Absolutely !!!

In fact Jesus Christ chased out the money changers from the temple and constantly rebuked lovers of money and covetous people.

"He who does not put out his money at usury, Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved." (Psalm 15:5)

"One who increases his possessions by usury and extortion Gathers it for him who will pity the poor." (Proverbs 28:8 )

Christians do not practise usury is the implied meaning here.

You have to differentiate this from the laws of the state and the banking sector ethics which are all based on secular , non-religious principles.

With this in mind, a business does not exist for charity but to make money, so if these secular banks charge a reasonable interest to it's customers for a profit, i see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

You and I know that Profit making is different from Usury, Business is permissible, Usury is not. Money can be used to make investments for profit.

I agree that most laws are secular but for the most part, christian groups and churches take these usury-based loans, Most christians did not take interest until the 16th century.

It is a violation of biblical laws,

frosbel:

Again , how do you know that Jesus prayed 3 times a day like the Jews, this is your verdict on unsubstantiated facts.

How did Christ teach is to pray :

Matthew 6:5-13 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.  But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.


“This, then, is how you should pray:

“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.[b]’


In other words, we do not have to face Jerusalem or Mecca to pray , we do not have to pray in public places for all to see , we do not have to keep repeating certain verses or passages of scripture, we simply go into our closets and pray to God.

You will do well to learn the Lord's prayer above.

From all indications,Jesus was an observant Jew, so he most likely prayed like a Jew,

The lords prayer is a supplication, It does not preclude the possibility that he prayed the obligatory Jewish prayer,

Jesus simply asked his followers not to pray like hypocrites,

We can drop this point instead of speculating

frosbel:


how did Paul abolish the Law , explain.

Christianity was a name, derogatory in nature used to refer to Christians in the early church.

Let us just say , Jesus Christ came to save mankind from sin and not to start another religion.

But since we are referred to as Christians because we follow Christ , no qualms with that.

Paul did not start Christianity , Jesus did.

Paul rejected many parts of the law

1. Circumcision

2.Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. Galatians 5:2-4

2. Dietary Laws and Jewish Festival Calendar

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.Galatians 4:10-11

2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Romans 14:2-3

Rom 6:14-15 Paul says that believers have died to the Law, and now serve God in the new way of the Spirit. These two ways of serving God are mutually exclusive in Paul's understanding.

There are so many statements where paul rejects the law,

So on One hand Jesus is observing the law
and on the other Mr Paul is rejecting everything

Example of vulnerability

By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. John 5:30

Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. Mark 10:18

There are many many other verses

tbaba12345:

Paul rejected many parts of the law

1. Circumcision

2.Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. Galatians 5:2-4

Cirumcision of the male organ while medically adviseable and health approved, is our effort to make ourselves acceptable unto God, and does nothing to change the heart of man or alter his self-destructive ways.

We still have many circumcised killers, perverts and even rapists. Of what value then is circumcision if it has no impact on the inward man.

God has always wanted man to be circumcised of heart , the physical circumcision was the seal of a promise between Abraham and God.

"Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. [10] This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. " - Genesis 17:9



But what was the real type of circumscion God wanted, lets consider the following verses :


"The LORD your God will[b] circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants[/b], so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live." - Deuteronomy 30:6

Romans 2:29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, circumcise your hearts, you men of Judah and people of Jerusalem, or my wrath will break out and burn like fire because of the evil you have done--burn with no one to quench it.


Romans 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference.


This circumcision implied that the Holy Spirit worked in the heart of man to remove all the filthiness and wickedness of his ways, and to make him acceptable in God's sight.


"And I will give them singleness of heart and put a new spirit within them. I will take away their stony, stubborn heart and give them a tender, responsive heart," -Ezekiel 11:19


In summary, the circumcision we should be focused on , is the regeneration of our hearts through the power of God.

2. Dietary Laws and Jewish Festival Calendar

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.Galatians 4:10-11

2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Romans 14:2-3

We are not bound by dietary laws, sabbaths and the likes, these were meant for the Jews in the old dispensation and have all been abolished on the cross.

Again I make a distinction between the physical and the spiritual, God's concern is not what we eat or what holiday we observe but the state of our hearts before HIM.

" Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, [/b]2 because through Christ Jesus[b] the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. " - [b]Romans 8:1

The 10 commandments were not abolished, however we could not in the FLESH obey and keep God's laws perfectly. No matter how we tried , our righteousness was not up to the measure of God's standard.

"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away".- Isaiah 64:6


The Law of sin and death ' simply means that the Law reveals to us our sinfulness and spiritual condition which is seperation from God , hence the word death , because we cannot keep God's law perfectly in the flesh , when we sin we die ( spiritually ).

The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus means that we can now keep the LAW ( 10 Commandments not dietray laws etc )  by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit , and no longer by human effort which was incapabale of meeting God's righteous requirements.

So we still keep the LAW, only this time, it is done not by observing and adhering stricly to any number of laws , but by walking in the Power of the spirit. If we walk in the flesh we cannot keep the law of God and we die ( spirituallly speaking ).

To further buttress my point, kindly consider the scripture below :

"Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. [/b]7 [b]The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. " - Romans 8 :5-8

From all indications,Jesus was an observant Jew, so he most likely prayed like a Jew,

The lords prayer is a supplication, It does not preclude the possibility that he prayed the obligatory Jewish prayer,

Jesus simply asked his followers not to pray like hypocrites,

We can drop this point instead of speculating

What was the obligatory Jewish prayer ?

Jesus brought us a new and living way, in fact let us look at this beautiful scripture that will hammer the point home, hopefully.

"When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?”  (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)
The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])

!!! data removed for brevity

“Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet.  Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”  - John 4:7-26  ( Hallelujah)   -


Here was a samaritan women explaining to Jesus how and where they worshipped God , the Jews in Jerusalem, listen to Jesus's response

"a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth,

We are in the time of the Spirit and Truth, we do not need to follow any strict set of rules on how to pray and where to face.

We can pray walking, sitting, lying on our bed, driving, on a mountain , in a valley , anywhere and everywhere. GOD be praised forever !!!!

The verses prohibiting swine are as follows

"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you".

"Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you."
[Leviticus 11:7-8]

Pork is also prohibited in the Bible in the book of Deuteronomy

"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass."
[Deuteronomy 14:8]

Old testament dietary laws applicable to Jews only.

It is very unlikely that Jesus broke these laws because we see in Acts, that some kinds of meat was avoided by his followers:

Acts 15:29

You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from intimate immorality. You will do well to avoid these things

Now the bible didn't state that  he did eat pork but an educated guess would suggest he didn't.

Not true.

Food sacrificed to animals does not mean pork , meat of strangled animals could be that of a cow, chicken or even a pig.

But you keep talking about pork, for the life of me, has your refraining from the eating of pork made you a better person , a more loving muslim or even more pleasing in the sight of God 

Of course not !!

Jesus' disciples are condemned  for not washing their hands
Mat 15:1  Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Mat 15:2  Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
Mat 15:3  But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Jesus does not accept the traditions of the scribes and pharisees
Mat 15:4  For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5  But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6  And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7  Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8  This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Jesus condemns the scribes and Pharisees tradition with a parable,
Mat 15:10  And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
Mat 15:11  Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Mat 15:12  Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
Mat 15:13  But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Mat 15:14  Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Jesus explains his parable
Mat 15:15  Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
Mat 15:16  And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
Mat 15:17  Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18  But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19  For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20  These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

So did Jesus make previously unclean food clean by this passage?

No, He was talking of eating with unclean hands.

It was also a Jewish tradition to eat with clean hands , it is obvious that Jesus ignored this nonense law because it meant nothing spiritually and contributed zilch towards the spirituality of man.

The abolishment of the biblically unclean foods prohibitions was simply not under discussion in the context of the passage. It was simply about a tradition of eating with unclean hands.

It did , read this again, "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."

You tell me , what goes into a man if not food.

Also bearing in mind that Jesus Christ told Peter in a vision,  that he was not to call any meat unclean since God created them all.

,

The disciples of Jesus were condemned by the scribes and pharisees for not washing their hands,  They implied that they were defiled  because they did not follow the tradition of their elders. Jesus rebuked the scribes and Pharisees, saying that nothing a man puts into his mouth defiles the heart, defilement which He defined as "evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, [and] blasphemies". The scribes and Pharisees, and Jesus, were speaking on two entirely different levels, the scribes and Pharisees were concerned with the cleanliness of the hands, and Jesus the cleanliness of the heart.


So this has nothing to do with the prohibition of Pork,  Jesus would have been called a heretic there if  he  was talking about the laws of food .

So how does eating a PIG defile a man, please tell me 

I love my roast PORK , preferably grilled with some nice tasty potato wedges to match 

Even in the vision by peter his response was "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean" (Acts 10:14)

Meaning years after Jesus, he maintained and kept the law,

God made the food laws for a reason,  I am sure you agree that Obedience is a big part of righteousness,

Not true, you left out the response of Christ to Peter which is :

” The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven. "Acts 10 : 15-16

You and I know that Profit making is different from Usury,  Business is permissible, Usury is not. Money can be used to make investments for profit.

I agree that most laws are secular but for the most part, christian groups and churches take these usury-based loans,  Most christians did  not take interest until the 16th century.

It is a violation of biblical laws, 

There is no law in the bible against Christians or Churches taking usury based loans from banks or lending houses, though there is no reason why they should , many who do either do not manage their finances well or are in the prosperity pimping gang.

I hope the church at large ,  vehemently discourage these groups from taking these sorts of loans.

But God is against debt in general , because the borrower will always be a slave to the lender.

God's primary reason for frowning on this practise was because it pushed the poor including Christians or Church groups  into impoverishment, something which God hates.

Also on the part of the lender it exhibits greed and covetousness.

But to say that Churches and or Christians lend loans at usury levels is simply not true, maybe in this day and age , a few off the rails churches ,but definitely not a common thing.

frosbel:

Cirumcision of the male organ while medically adviseable and health approved, is our effort to make ourselves acceptable unto God, and does nothing to change the heart of man or alter his self-destructive ways.

We still have many circumcised killers, perverts and even rapists. Of what value then is circumcision if it has no impact on the inward man.

God has always wanted man to be circumcised of heart , the physical circumcision was the seal of a promise between Abraham and God.

"Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. [10] This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. " - Genesis 17:9



But what was the real type of circumscion God wanted, lets consider the following verses :


"The LORD your God will[b] circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants[/b], so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live." - Deuteronomy 30:6

Romans 2:29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, circumcise your hearts, you men of Judah and people of Jerusalem, or my wrath will break out and burn like fire because of the evil you have done--burn with no one to quench it.


Romans 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference.


This circumcision implied that the Holy Spirit worked in the heart of man to remove all the filthiness and wickedness of his ways, and to make him acceptable in God's sight.


"And I will give them singleness of heart and put a new spirit within them. I will take away their stony, stubborn heart and give them a tender, responsive heart," -Ezekiel 11:19


In summary, the circumcision we should be focused on , is the regeneration of our hearts through the power of God.

The point has not been addressed , What gives Paul the Justification to reject the laws of God, The Laws Jesus himself followed, The laws also include the ten commandments.

I am saying all of the laws should be followed as Jesus (AS). did. How can you be christ-like when you decide which law is better than the other?

Jesus says

King James Version (KJV)
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So Jesus is clearly telling paul and christians that those laws are important.

You can't justify Paul's words by quoting paul's verses, The laws says gets circumcised, the law also say do not kill, Don't you think it is just logical to follow both? Even if you consider one more important than the other.

Again Paul contradicts Jesus,

frosbel:


We are not bound by dietary laws, sabbaths and the likes, these were meant for the Jews in the old dispensation and have all been abolished on the cross.

Again I make a distinction between the physical and the spiritual, God's concern is not what we eat or what holiday we observe but the state of our hearts before HIM.

" Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, [/b]2 because through Christ Jesus[b] the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. " - [b]Romans 8:1

The 10 commandments were not abolished, however we could not in the FLESH obey and keep God's laws perfectly. No matter how we tried , our righteousness was not up to the measure of God's standard.

"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away".- Isaiah 64:6


The Law of sin and death ' simply means that the Law reveals to us our sinfulness and spiritual condition which is seperation from God , hence the word death , because we cannot keep God's law perfectly in the flesh , when we sin we die ( spiritually ).

The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus means that we can now keep the LAW ( 10 Commandments not dietray laws etc )  by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit , and no longer by human effort which was incapabale of meeting God's righteous requirements.

So we still keep the LAW, only this time, it is done not by observing and adhering stricly to any number of laws , but by walking in the Power of the spirit. If we walk in the flesh we cannot keep the law of God and we die ( spirituallly speaking ).

To further buttress my point, kindly consider the scripture below :
tead of paul
"Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. [/b]7 [b]The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. " - Romans 8 :5-8

Another pauline doctrine, Did Jesus clearly state that the dietary laws are hereby abolished for my followers?

I would prefer we use Jesus statement to justify these anomalies instead of paul, quoting paul in my arguments against him defeats the purpose, quote a statement by Jesus that justifies paul's stance on the dietary laws.

We know that most of the apostles still prayed in the synagogue after Jesus and kept the laws, There are some churches today that keep those laws.

So why did paul abolish 'the commandents'? He was not even a messenger from God. Again i quote:

King James Version (KJV)
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

^^^^^


Sorry , but I have no time for ISLAM and it's circular logic, I just explained the verses , you purposely skipped through my explanations , we are now back to square one,

You guys should try and put on some honesty , stop rushing blind through the facts to come to what I will like to refer to as illiogical conclusions. 

Maybe some other brothers with some free time can bother to help.

frosbel:

What was the obligatory Jewish prayer ?

Jesus brought us a new and living way, in fact let us look at this beautiful scripture that will hammer the point home, hopefully.

"When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?”  (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)
The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])

!!! data removed for brevity

“Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet.  Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”  - John 4:7-26  ( Hallelujah)   -


Here was a samaritan women explaining to Jesus how and where they worshipped God , the Jews in Jerusalem, listen to Jesus's response

"a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth,

We are in the time of the Spirit and Truth, we do not need to follow any strict set of rules on how to pray and where to face.

We can pray walking, sitting, lying on our bed, driving, on a mountain , in a valley , anywhere and everywhere. GOD be praised forever !!!!

I agree God be praised!!

But there are still major problems with your arguments, even then the Jews prayed anywhere,

The Jew's
Tephillat reshut prayer  can be said limitless times a day, you can use any words to pray

So even within the law, there is a provision for that kind of prayer,

So what makes this provision different from what already obtains in the law?

frosbel:

^^^^^


Sorry , but I have no time for ISLAM and it's circular logic, I just explained the verses , you purposely skipped through my explanations , we are now back to square one,

You guys should try and put on some honesty , stop rushing blind through the facts to come to what I will like to refer to as illiogical conclusions. 

Maybe some other brothers with some free time can bother to help.

I appreciate your contributions

Thanks

^^^^

Thank you Sir.