ooman: ^^^what is certain is that if there is no god in the observed world, then there is no god in the parts we have not observed.

But we arent certain that there is no God. I like to think of the existence of God as a theory yet to be verified or, more precisely put, proved. Take dark matter for instance, which itself is still a theory at the moment (although I hope they find proof for it soon and I have faith in science). In the case of dark matter, scientists realised that there was a great discrepancy between the observable universe and what their equations was giving them. Hence they came up with dark matter to account for the unobservable. It is still a theory at the moment. Gravity was a theory at one time too. So we need conclusive proofs before we adopt or refute a theory. And in the case of God we dont have it yet.

ooman:
I love to take this argument with deists than with xtians, even xtians now abandon their bible and take deistic position this days.

Personally, I think christians should drop their bibles and ask questions nowadays. the world has moved beyond blindly quoting from old books without looking at the context and the motives behind the books.
P.S The foregoing applies to rational christians though. There are too many dumb people hiding behind the guise of christianity to perpetuate buffoonery

PhenomenonVFX: But we arent certain that there is no
God. I like to think of the existence of
God as a theory yet to be verified or,
more precisely put, proved. Take dark
matter for instance, which itself is still a
theory at the moment (although I hope
they find proof for it soon and I have
faith in science). In the case of dark
matter, scientists realised that there was
a great discrepancy between the
observable universe and what their
equations was giving them. Hence they
came up with dark matter to account for
the unobservable. It is still a theory at
the moment. Gravity was a theory at one
time too. So we need conclusive proofs
before we adopt or refute a theory. And
in the case of God we dont have it yet.

Talk of dichotomy, the perfect between "someone" and "something". God is not dark matter that doesnt have intelligence. God is a conscious entity that in fact want us to find him as we are told. Therefore if god exist, he wont be so elusive to find because he is someone not something. Hope you understand that.

God is not a needle in a haystack, he is supposed to be the most obvious one in the universe.

The fact that god is so difficult to find disproves his existence to begin with. We may continue this if you wish

ooman:

Talk of dichotomy, the perfect between "someone" and "something". God is not dark matter that doesnt have intelligence. God is a conscious entity that in fact want us to find him as we are told. Therefore if god exist, he wont be so elusive to find because he is someone not something. Hope you understand that.

God is not a needle in a haystack, he is supposed to be the most obvious one in the universe.

The fact that god is so difficult to find disproves his existence to begin with. We may continue this if you wish

Ur premise is based on a false assumption. U assume that God wants to be found. What if He doesnt? That is the centrality of deistic beliefs. The aloof God. The apathetic God. That is why I am a deist not a theist. Ur arguments will better resonate with the theists.

By logical syllogism, if the bolded assumptions are false, then ur conclusion in red is false too.

PhenomenonVFX: The problem with these sorts of arguments is that it is limited by our understanding and observations of the universe. No one can really say for sure. But I like the fact that most scientists and atheists keep an open mind as to the origin of the universe unlike the religious who just makes weird claims based on century old parchments.

All arguments are limited by our understanding and observations of the universe that is why questions based on science have answers that are generally provisional.

PhenomenonVFX:
If we say there is no God, that leads to classic Argumentum ad ignorantiam, a fallacy. Because we cant prove the existence of something doesnt mean that God does not exist. Because something is unobservable doesnt render the existence of such a thing null. So there is an argument to be made for the existence of God considering the pattern and design that we see.

Not really. It depends on the type of God we have in mind. I think it is pretty clear that the type of God referenced by many religions doesn't exist.

PhenomenonVFX:
But if we say there is God, that leads to an infinite regress. Why should there be God? because we couldnt have come by chance (out of nothing). Ok, agreed. Then that leads to the question: who created God? And what created what created God? Hence we run into an infinte regress where one proposition has to be backed up by another propostion. And if we say that God couldnt have been created by anyone, He is all in all, bla bla bla, this gives power to the atheists' argument. Why cant it be that the universe created itself? aawhy cant it be that we are an expression of the universe sprung out of nothingness? Could it be that we are all a part of what we call God? The questions abound

Can nothing actually exist? I don't know about you but when religious people talk about God, they have a certain entity in mind that is quite different from us.

PhenomenonVFX:
Personally I believe in Intelligent Design since I am a Deist. But one thing I dont believe is that folktale written in the bible about the origin of the world and that the world is 6000-8000 years old.

You believe in intelligent design of what? Humans, all of life, the entire universe, the cosmos? What exactly?

.

PhenomenonVFX:

Ur premise is based on a false assumption. U assume that God wants to be found. What if He doesnt? That is the centrality of deistic beliefs. The aloof God. The apathetic God. That is why I am a deist not a theist. Ur arguments will better resonate with the theists.

By logical syllogism, if the bolded assumptions are false, then ur conclusion in red is false too.

Am sorry. Am so used to theists than to deists when debating, this is why I seem to shift to a theistic argument.

From a deistic point of view, you may be right, what if this Intelligent Designer ID, does not want to be found? What if he is just some aliens with sophisticated technology to make a universe?

What ifs and even more what ifs are not answers, they are assumptions and we know from observation that there is a great difference between automated works of intelligence and nature. I used 'automation' since the deistic point of view is that the IDner started everything and allow it to continue itself or is that right?

Intelligent automation follows a particular algorithm, deviation from this stops the system from functioning, but in nature, in living systems now, we do not see such algorithms, instead, we see spontaneous occurrences based on changing environment and we also document appearance of new organisms. We see favorable traits occuribg by chance and every other thing provable in nature are chances and spontaneity that could terminate the whole of everything that exist.

We know that the sun will blow in some 10billion years and earth will be destroyed.
We also know the universe cannot exist forever.

This makes one ask questions about what intelligence would start something he/she wouldn't finish? what is the aim of this designer since everything designed could self destruct and in fact will self destruct with time?

Works of intelligence always have purposes, life and the universe seem to lack purpose, aim and objective. This is why an intelligent designer couldn't have made nature, except if what we now debate is How much intelligent is this designer?? If that is, then at some points, it still wont add up for any designer in nature.

The only thing that completely add up is that there is no god, or IDner at all in nature. The only thing that adds up is atheism.

ooman From what I can see now, the both of us are in no disagreement that the god personified by most religions is spurious. Where we disagree is that u choose to believe there is NO God at all but I believe there MAY BE God. I am afraid it will take us the lifetime of the universe to agree on that part as long as there remains no conclusive evidence to prove or refute either claim.

PhenomenonVFX: ooman From what I can see now, the both of us are in no disagreement that the god personified by most religions is spurious. Where we disagree is that u choose to believe there is NO God at all but I believe there MAY BE God. I am afraid it will take us the lifetime of the universe to agree on that part as long as there remains no conclusive evidence to prove or refute either claim.

What is darkness except lack of light.
What is spontaneity except lack of automation.

The evidence for the absense of god is conclusive enough.

ooman:

What is darkness except lack of light.
What is spontaneity except lack of automation.

The evidence for the absense presence of god is conclusive enough.

Now u sound exactly like a christian I discussed with once.

PhenomenonVFX:
Now u sound exactly like a christian I discussed with once.

Well, you edited my comment - this crime is as serious as impersonation.

While my mind is open enough, I dont do very well with ifs and coulds when it comes to spirits.

In my own field - life science - God cannot exist.

over and over and over and over again... ad nauseum... those who claim God doesnt exist seem to park their brains here in the very section that discusses His existence.

ooman: ^^^what is certain is that if there is no god in the observed world, then there is no god in the parts we have not observed.

I love to take this argument with deists than with xtians, even xtians now abandon their bible and take deistic position this days.

this makes absolutely zero sense. I mean you know for a certain that the lack of a God in the observed world means there is none in the world YOU have not observed?

I think people of Faith have rejected and forsaken an objective truth that God exists, in order to opt for faith (a subjective reality) through which God lives.

Kay 17: I think people of Faith have rejected and forsaken an objective truth that God exists, in order to opt for faith (a subjective reality) through which God lives.

This is another senseless comment. Christianity is a FAITH... no one has ever denied that so you "thinking" it just makes me wonder if you've been living under a rock all these while. Your point is?

^^ ok I edit it as "people of faith . . ."

Kay 17: ^^ ok I edit it as "people of faith . . ."

That is just as bad. Why do you think "people of FAITH" embrace "faith"? Perhaps because they is what they ARE? you dont seem to have a cogent thought. It seems to me that some of you just post without really thinking deep.

davidylan:

this makes absolutely zero sense. I mean you know for a certain that the lack of a God in the observed world means there is none in the world YOU have not observed?

God is a person not a thing. If he exist, he wont be so elusive to find.

davidylan:

This is another senseless comment. Christianity is a FAITH... no one has ever denied that so you "thinking" it just makes me wonder if you've been living under a rock all these while. Your point is?

Dude I wanted to reply that guy. But when I saw ur reply to him, I couldnt help LMAO.......still laughing.
U for take am easy with d guy na

davidylan:

That is just as bad. Why do you think "people of FAITH" embrace "faith"? Perhaps because they is what they ARE? you dont seem to have a cogent thought. It seems to me that some of you just post without really thinking deep.

By people of Faith, I meant Christians, Muslims and other religious bodies that take Faith asa central tenet. And that's the general meaning of "People of Faith"

ooman:

God is a person not a thing. If he exist, he wont be so elusive to find.

A God is not a Person (in Paganism). A God is a Siritual Force.

ooman:

God is a person not a thing. If he exist, he wont be so elusive to find.

well keep searching now...

Kay 17:

By people of Faith, I meant Christians, Muslims and other religious bodies that take Faith asa central tenet. And that's the general meaning of "People of Faith"

Dude you're in the incoherent babble zone now. Of course people of faith see faith in a deity as the central tenet of their religious conviction... that has been so for over 6000 yrs. Are you just noticing that people of faith embrace faith?

@phenomenonVFX, pls I just want to plead with you not to loose your faith based on physical fact.
The major difference between a Theist & an Atheist is "Spirituality" though majority of Christians today have followed the physical fact of scientists and neglecting the Spiritual aspect.

Before Jesus went to heaven, He said "He will send a comforter.." which is the 'Holy Spirit'.
Then as a Christian have you found out whether there is something call Holy Spirit or not?
If a christian fail or yet to discover the presence of the Holy Spirit he/she is nothing like an atheist base on physical fact of matters

Creationists and evolutionists, Christians and non-Christians, all have the same facts. Think about it: we all have the same earth, the same fossil layers, the same animals and plants, the same stars—the facts are all the same.
The difference is in the way we all interpret the facts. And why do we interpret facts differently? Because we start with different presuppositions;

Though the evidence of God is all around us we have His word(The Bible), mountains, oceans e.t.c but the point is how can you explain the existence of God through the help of the Holy Spirit.

"God is a spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit" this is far beyond any physical means of searching for God.

ooman:

God is a person not a thing. If he exist, he wont be so elusive to find.

LOL you're a little bit confuse here because some of your past post read "the fact is God doesn't exist"

wirinet: The DNA molecule

The DNA is the most important molecule in the universe. Its beautiful double helix spiral pattern make life possible and is in fact life itself.

Now the key question is can this pattern be formed from chance after trillions and trillions of trial and error or it must require a thoroughly thought out process by an intelligent designer to arrange the molecular pattern in very precise order.

Waiting for comments from atheists and theists.

How about intelligent designers not designer ? I think our planet is an oasis in a galaxy of stars. It will be arrogant of humans to think they are the only ones in the universe. Perhaps some advance beings came over to make sure man's evolution was a success. I am not talking about the bible God here pls,so no unnecessary bible quote in case anyone want to reply me.

Looking at the way humans presently carry out research on animal behaviours,cross breed etc......other beings may have done the same to us.

Emusan:

LOL you're a little bit confuse here because some of your past post read "the fact is God doesn't exist"

My point simply buttress the fact that he does not exist, how is that confusing to you??

ifeness:

How about intelligent designers not designer ? I think our planet is an oasis in a galaxy of stars. It will be arrogant of humans to think they are the only ones in the universe. Perhaps some advance beings came over to make sure man's evolution was a success. I am not talking about the bible God here pls,so no unnecessary bible quote in case anyone want to reply me.

Looking at the way humans presently carry out research on animal behaviours,cross breed etc......other beings may have done the same to us.

@bold- dreams and delusions

davidylan:

Dude you're in the incoherent babble zone now. Of course people of faith see faith in a deity as the central tenet of their religious conviction... that has been so for over 6000 yrs. Are you just noticing that people of faith embrace faith?

Wrong!!!

Oldest religious artifact dates back to 50 000- 70 000 years

davidylan:

well keep searching now...

You mean I should keep searching for god like a needle in a haystack?? ?? I'd rather search for a needle in the ocean

ooman:

Wrong!!!

Oldest religious artifact dates back to 50 000- 70 000 years

Well if you calmed down long enough to READ... OVER 6000 yrs ago means 50000 yrs is in frame no?

ooman:

You mean I should keep searching for god like a needle in a haystack?? ?? I'd rather search for a needle in the ocean

Well then what are you doing parked here?

davidylan:

Well then what are you doing parked here?

am telling you to stop believing in santa so that Africa can progress. people like yourself, the shameless adults who believe in bogeyman are delaying our success