tbaba1234: Look at it this way, every thing you have is a prize or a provision, Even on the earth... Everything you have is a gift, Does that objectify your wife or kids which have been given to you as gifts from your lord?

I guess that’s where we differ in perspectives. I don’t view my family as “prizes” I view them as priceless.

maclatunji: women were created to be companions of men and you lot are objects of our desire and sources of pleasure for us here on earth.

Now can you tell me why man was created?

Does the bolded prevent you from being all you want to be and from positively impacting on the world?

No but what you have asserted in bold has defined all that a houri is to be...I’m not a houri - the purpose of my existence is not to satiate another man...I have no obligation to men.
Which makes me ponder....do the “pious” men lust or love these houris?

Don't shy away from your femininity, embrace it. Islam accords women a place of esteem and honour at all times and that includes Houris as well.

Please define femininity? What makes you think I shy away from it?

emöfine2:

I guess that’s where we differ in perspectives. I don’t view my family as “prizes” I view them as priceless.

Your family is a provision from the creator; If you hold them in such high esteem then you should hold the one who has given you your family in even greater esteem. you do not make the choice to be born or what kind of family to be born into...

I think your problem is the fixation with the word 'prizes'... With that mentality, you family is also a prize because you do not make a conscious decision to be part of that family. You are a prize to them as they are to you.

Why? because the decision to belong to a family is independent of you or them.... We own nothing... Not even our families...

Everything is a provision... Everything is a prize (using your terminology).

Houris and not the “pious” are the “rewards”. Some people keep on stressing that houris will be a recipient of pleasure from their companion as much as they provide their companion with pleasure but that does not subtract from the detail that the houris are the prize and the believer thus the winner of such prizes. Or can one say that the believers are also as “prize” to the Houris?

You keep talking from one perspective; We only talk from the perspective of the pious who makes paradise. The Houris are a creation; they were created to be companions of the pious... Humans have a purpose on earth, our purpose is to serve the master, owner, nourisher and sustainer of all that exists.

What exactly are the houris? There are few definitions, the most common translation is probably : maidens with large, dark eyes. They would be spouses to the righteous in paradise... We do not fully understand what they are: The Quran says one of the gifts bestowed on the devoted in heaven is “Beautiful Eyes”. What are these “Beautiful Eyes”? No one really knows.

hur al-ein.”

ein = eye al-ein = the eye
HUR could mean the black of the iris, which is so intense, that it makes the white part of the eye stand out so sharply, and the total effect is very beautiful and seductive.

Other commentaries on the Koran relate HUR to HAYRA (confusion, bedazzlement), i.e., their beauty is so ravishing, you are literally entranced.


How does Allah describe spouses of this world in the Quran?

"They (your spouses) are your garment and you are a garment for them" (Noble Quran 2:187)

As much as you need them, they need you...

A prize? Every provision from your lord is a prize.......

What constitutes as a prize? What are prizes made for? An incentive? Without any wiling participants a prize's value will thus depreciate. If there was no participants there’ll be no use for prizes. What is the value of these Houris then if they exist to gratify others? If there were no male believers in Paradise would Houris still exist?

Value is dependent on the holder... I could have a million dollars and put little value to it.. another would consider it to be a great treasure. Humans are incentive driven creatures... That is our nature. Some people study to get a better job while others study because of the passion they have. For each person, that is the incentive.

The Job or the satisfaction from engaging in that study are prizes from your creator as well. Your whole existence is filled with prizes but most of mankind is ungrateful. The Quran says:

Surah 16:78

It is God who brought you out of your mothers’ wombs knowing nothing, and gave you hearing and sight and minds, so that you might be thankful. (Surah 16:78)

Your mind, hearing and sight are 'prizes' too... you didn't ask for them..

Everything is a provision, Everything is a prize...

What is the value of your hearing if there was no sound? your mind if we didn't have to reason? or your sight if it was all dark?

That is the question you are asking... Everything is a provision. The duty is to be thankful for our provisions...

The fact that houris are said to be perpetual virgins (correct me if I’m wrong) will always make me think twice about the alleged remark about equivalent pleasure.

For the most part...On Earth women unlike houris have a choice. We can decide if we want male companions unlike houris who are obligated in their “roles” which serves as a reward for another.


Which leads me to ask...will females be subservient to men in Paradise?

Perpetual virgins?? where did you get that from? I would suggest you learn about Islam from Islamic sources... The only thing said about the houris is that

a. creatures with large, dark eyes
b. Neither Men or Jinn have touched them.

Where does perpetual virgin come from ??

The earth is imperfect, Paradise will be perfect, The houris shall perform what they were created for and would be happy. Just like everyone in paradise.

No one will be subservient in paradise;

emöfine2:

I guess that’s where we differ in perspectives. I don’t view my family as “prizes” I view them as priceless.



Now can you tell me why man was created?

emöfine2: No but what you have asserted in bold has defined all that a houri is to be...I’m not a houri - the purpose of my existence is not to satiate another man...I have no obligation to men.
Which makes me ponder....do the “pious” men lust or love these houris?

Now, this particular bolded comment proves that you have not yet fully embraced your femininity. It doesn't matter what you achieve as a woman, if you like become President/Queen of the world. You would not have fulfilled your full potential if you don't have a man you look up to for support and whom you would be willing to give-up virtually everything for. A good-enough example is the Queen of England, despite the hype that surrounds her, she has remained level-headed and respectful of her husband. Going by what you are subtly inferring, she probably would have had him kicked-out after some years and could easily have had her way- isn't she the British monarch? I am not married, but there are ladies whom if they told me to "do this" or "not to do that" on issues that have no contradictions to Islamic injunctions, I would find it difficult to say "No", some are much older, some are my mates- I hold their opinions and views in high esteem not because they seek to be "Amazons" but because they have truly embraced what it is to be a woman and my God! It does bring them much distinction in my view.

emöfine2: Please define femininity? What makes you think I shy away from it?

Femininity is being true to yourself as a woman- this means being a 'good' daughter, sister, wife and mother. 'Good' in that definition means being a source of joy, inspiration, support. In addition, it means being a care-giver, an adviser, a partner, a friend, a stabilizing influence and so much more.

Surely, emofine. You don't expect me to teach you how to be a woman.

maclatunji:
Now, this particular bolded comment proves that you have not yet fully embraced your femininity.

Nonsense !!

It doesn't matter what you achieve as a woman, if you like become President/Queen of the world. You would not have fulfilled your full potential if you don't have a man you look up to for support and whom you would be willing to give-up virtually everything for.

Hmm. Islam again with Male Chauvinism


so she should give everything up for her husband which also includes her intelligence, is she a slave, what a backward logic.

A good-enough example is the Queen of England, despite the hype that surrounds her, she has remained level-headed and respectful of her husband.

But she is at the same time a co-equal with the husband and is treated as such.

Going by what you are subtly inferring, she probably would have had him kicked-out after some years and could easily have had her way- isn't she the British monarch?

Flawed logic yet again , how can she kick him out when many of these marriages end up as marriages of convenience.

I am not married, but there are ladies whom if they told me to "do this" or "not to do that" on issues that have no contradictions to Islamic injunctions, I would find it difficult to say "No", some are much older, some are my mates- I hold their opinions and views in high esteem not because they seek to be "Amazons" but because they have truly embraced what it is to be a woman and my God! It does bring them much distinction in my view.

You are yet to define what it means to be a woman

Femininity is being true to yourself as a woman- this means being a 'good' daughter, sister, wife and mother. 'Good' in that definition means being a source of joy, inspiration, support. In addition, it means being a care-giver, an adviser, a partner, a friend, a stabilizing influence and so much more.

Now you are talking

Surely, emofine. You don't expect me to teach you how to be a woman.

She needs to learn how to be a woman without the restrictive, demeaning and oppressive Islamic injunctions.


Peace and please do not reply as I know you won't

emöfine2: @LagosShia + tbaba

First of all my emphasis was not even on sex it was on the role of the houris.

When a list is drawn up of some of the pleasures to be found or experienced in Paradise, Houris will definitely feature.

Thus my question follows: what is the purpose of their existence? Or maybe I should say...Are the Houris just one of the many pleasurable provisions to be made in Paradise?

The way I look at it...the Houris existence (at the very least part of their existence) is largely for the purpose of satisfying another – their companion.
They form part of the rewards to be found in Paradise. They are thus “prizes” - at least they are presented as such.
Hence my questions - Are these female characters objectified?....Afterall they exist for what? To gratify another or to add to another’s pleasure?



Oh so they are also the [i]consolation [/i]prize?

in religion,the emphasis of the purpose of creation is to serve God in many ways possible.

animals on earth are created for what purpose? is it as a "consolation prize"? are they created to satisfy man? and what about them being in God's plan?

your very own "lord and saviour" who was a man and the supposed "begotten son of God",what is his role on earth and why did God send him for? was it not to replace rams being slaughtered and take the role of animal sacrifice,according to christianity and become a "human sacrifice",that christians believe is the only way to salvation?so someone who has a "lord and saviour" taking the role of a sacrificial animal and died to save animals from being slaughtered,should find it easy if women have certain roles in society or even in paradise which include to take care of their husbands and satisfy their needs as companions.after all the very bible says that a woman's head is the crown of her husband's glory.

a woman has the role of companionship to play.her role in society is clear or she may have many roles to play.

logicboy:

My god, am I at a hip-hop concert? The remixing that is done here is just epic!


See Tbaba, LagosShia and Maclatunji remixing and spinning their way out of a problem in the Quran.

The houri represent a very problematic issue for Islam.

-What if muslim husband and wives make it to Jannah? Concubinage with houri?

-Why are only the men promised houri? What is the reward for women? The houri are female deigns " 55:56 Therein are those of modest gaze, whom neither man nor jinni will have touched before them"

-If Muhammad and followers are in Jannah, what is Muhammad's need for houri? Aisha and Khadija not enough?


Sorry, but the Houri is one controversial topic in islam

in Islam polygamy is an option.those that do not want it will not be forced to do it.

paradise is a place of residence for eternity.you can settle with your wife if both of you make it and want so.but what about those like young martyrs who never had wives on earth? would they share another man's wife? there is no problem when you view this as an optional provision and something desirable but not needed.if i did not practice polygamy on earth,do you think i'd want to practice it in paradise after both i and my have made it? and do you think those (male and female) who make it to paradise are any less beautiful than the houris? we are promised perpetual youthfulness and health and transformed bodies.

LagosShia:

in Islam polygamy is an option.those that do not want it will not be forced to do it.

paradise is a place of residence for eternity.you can settle with your wife if both of you make it and want so.but what about those like young martyrs who never had wives on earth? would they share another man's wife? there is no problem when you view this as an optional provision and something desirable but not needed.if i did not practice polygamy on earth,do you think i'd want to practice it in paradise after both i and my have made it? and do you think those (male and female) who make it to paradise are any less beautiful than the houris? we are promised perpetual youthfulness and health and transformed bodies.

1) Are there not single females that will go to heaven as well?

2) In Jannah, Muhammad and his followers would be in spirit form. Last time I checked spirits do not need food or sex. Does Allah need companionship?

tbaba1234: Your family is a provision from the creator; If you hold them in such high esteem then you should hold the one who has given you your family in even greater esteem. you do not make the choice to be born or what kind of family to be born into...

I think your problem is the fixation with the word 'prizes'... With that mentality, you family is also a prize because you do not make a conscious decision to be part of that family. You are a prize to them as they are to you.

Why? because the decision to belong to a family is independent of you or them.... We own nothing... Not even our families...

Everything is a provision... Everything is a prize (using your terminology).

Even though we're both using the same term “prize” I think in our minds we may have a different definition.

Prize is not the same as gift. A gift is freely given, a prize is won thus is conditional. I don’t regard my family as a prize.

The Houris are a creation; they were created to be companions of the pious...

Hence my point. If no male believers were to make it to Paradise they are thus redundant.

Perpetual virgins?? where did you get that from? I would suggest you learn about Islam from Islamic sources... The only thing said about the houris is that

a. creatures with large, dark eyes
b. Neither Men or Jinn have touched them.

Where does perpetual virgin come from ??

The earth is imperfect, Paradise will be perfect, The houris shall perform what they were created for and would be happy. Just like everyone in paradise.

Ok, pardon me. I was informed that their virginity doesn't expire even after being deflowered...but yeah I agree with you I should study all this first hand.

No one will be subservient in paradise;

So houris and other females are not subordinate to men in Paradise?

maclatunji: Now, this particular bolded comment proves that you have not yet fully embraced your femininity.

Declaring that the purpose of my existence does not revolve around satisfying men means I haven’t embraced my femininity? Are the houris the epitome of femininity?

It doesn't matter what you achieve as a woman, if you like become President/Queen of the world. You would not have fulfilled your full potential if you don't have a man you look up to for support and whom you would be willing to give-up virtually everything for.

Is the person that I by all accounts have to look up to for support and one I’m willing to sacrifice everything for have to be a man? Soley because they are from the opposite sex? So I’m not complete without allowing a man to assume that role?
Maclatunji, if justifiable I can very well look up to a man but not because that person happened to be male...it would be due to the calibre of such person’s character/role and not due to the person’s gender.

A good-enough example is the Queen of England, despite the hype that surrounds her, she has remained level-headed and respectful of her husband. Going by what you are subtly inferring, she probably would have had him kicked-out after some years and could easily have had her way- isn't she the British monarch?

What am I subtly inferring? It’s exactly because she’s the British monarch she’s deliberate in her actions (I’m not saying that’s bad per se) but everything she does is considered and as already mentioned such marriage (which were even often arranged at least back then) are marriages of convenience. So I can guarantee you that she remaining with her husband is not largely because she’s “respectful of her husband”.

I am not married, but there are ladies whom if they told me to "do this" or "not to do that" on issues that have no contradictions to Islamic injunctions, I would find it difficult to say "No", some are much older, some are my mates- I hold their opinions and views in high esteem not because they seek to be "Amazons" but because they have truly embraced what it is to be a woman and my God! It does bring them much distinction in my view.

So basically you find ladies that have views in line with Islam to be ones that have embraced their womanhood?

Femininity is being true to yourself as a woman- this means being a 'good' daughter, sister, wife and mother. 'Good' in that definition means being a source of joy, inspiration, support. In addition, it means being a care-giver, an adviser, a partner, a friend, a stabilizing influence and so much more.

Surely, emofine. You don't expect me to teach you how to be a woman.

You see all that you have described here is not pertaining to an exclusive role... there is so much any man and woman can fulfil here on earth ...and both are not necessarily or only inter-dependent on another but even with those of the same gender....
The irony is all that you have purported femininity to be doesn’t really summarise a houri....who does she inspire in her sole role?

Anyway you skipped my question...are houris to be loved or lusted?

LagosShia:

in religion,the emphasis of the purpose of creation is to serve God in many ways possible.

animals on earth are created for what purpose? is it as a "consolation prize"? are they created to satisfy man? and what about them being in God's plan?

your very own "lord and saviour" who was a man and the supposed "begotten son of God",what is his role on earth and why did God send him for? was it not to replace rams being slaughtered and take the role of animal sacrifice,according to christianity and become a "human sacrifice",that christians believe is the only way to salvation?so someone who has a "lord and saviour" taking the role of a sacrificial animal and died to save animals from being slaughtered,should find it easy if women have certain roles in society or even in paradise which include to take care of their husbands and satisfy their needs as companions.after all the very bible says that a woman's head is the crown of her husband's glory.

a woman has the role of companionship to play.her role in society is clear or she may have many roles to play.

Are you mistaking me for someone else on this thread? I don’t remember telling you that Jesus was my lord and saviour.

emöfine2:

Declaring that the purpose of my existence does not revolve around satisfying men means I haven’t embraced my femininity? Are the houris the epitome of femininity?

At the moment, your world may not revolve around a man. However, if by your middle age, your husband and kids are not the locus of your world- you do have a problem.

emöfine2:
Is the person that I by all accounts have to look up to for support and one I’m willing to sacrifice everything for have to be a man? Soley because they are from the opposite sex? So I’m not complete without allowing a man to assume that role?
Maclatunji, if justifiable I can very well look up to a man but not because that person happened to be male...it would be due to the calibre of such person’s character/role and not due to the person’s gender.

I know, but seriously you will at least have to find a man that you would choose because of his gender or don't you want to get married?

emöfine2:
What am I subtly inferring? It’s exactly because she’s the British monarch she’s deliberate in her actions (I’m not saying that’s bad per se) but everything she does is considered and as already mentioned such marriage (which were even often arranged at least back then) are marriages of convenience. So I can guarantee you that she remaining with her husband is not largely because she’s “respectful of her husband”.

It is, if not he goes!

emöfine2:

So basically you find ladies that have views in line with Islam to be ones that have embraced their womanhood?



You see all that you have described here is not pertaining to an exclusive role... there is so much any man and woman can fulfil here on earth ...and both are not necessarily or only inter-dependent on another but even with those of the same gender....
The irony is all that you have purported femininity to be doesn’t really summarise a houri....who does she inspire in her sole role?

Anyway you skipped my question...are houris to be loved or lusted?



Are you mistaking me for someone else on this thread? I don’t remember telling you that Jesus was my lord and saviour.

The women I say I respect aren't all Muslims. Femininity oozes from ladies that have it, one can tell. My purported definition of femininity may not match a Houri because there is variation in earthly living and paradise. Women on earth have to earn paradise. Houris are a part of paradise.

Houris are meant to be loved now. Which do you prefer to be loved or lusted over.

maclatunji: At the moment, your world may not revolve around a man. However, if by your middle age, your husband and kids are not the locus of your world- you do have a problem.

Why does it seem that the goal post seems to be changing?

That is only if I choose to have a husband and child(ren)...if I don’t I wouldn’t be redundant as I exist in my own right. If such was to happen then yes they would be my priority of course. My focus would have shifted and they would be thus another reason for me to live to see each new day but still they would not be the purpose for my existence which is what I’ve been highlighting over and over again. I exist in my own right unlike a houri - which is what I was saying all along.
I can decide not to marry, not to have a companion etc but houris don’t have that choice...because they were made for such, the basis for their existence thus they are mere provision.

I know, but seriously you will at least have to find a man that you would choose because of his gender or don't you want to get married?

I knew you were referring to marriage I was just waiting for you to come out and say it.
In the case of marriage then of course each partner will look for such quality in an individual before considering such person as a spouse but if one hasn’t married yet or even decides not to get married then whoever may assume that role doesn’t have to be gender specific. Admittedly marriage is not a personal ambition of mine.

The women I say I respect aren't all Muslims. Femininity oozes from ladies that have it, one can tell. My purported definition of femininity may not match a Houri because there is variation in earthly living and paradise. Women on earth have to earn paradise. Houris are a part of paradise.

Yes I gathered that the women you respect aren’t necessarily Muslim but those that unsurprisingly have “issues that have no contradictions to Islamic injunctions” ...if it was the opposite would you still render those women as the epitome of “femininity” and respect them as such?

Is there only one role one has to cater to in Paradise – that role being to be a companion?

Houris are meant to be loved now. Which do you prefer to be loved or lusted over.

Hhmm they sound like objects to be lusted over .

P.S.

tbaba1234: No one will be subservient in paradise;

So if paradise is a perfect abode...so in a perfect habitat no woman will be subservient to a man?

emöfine2: P.S.



So if paradise is a perfect abode...so in a perfect habitat no woman will be subservient to a man?

is it only men that enjoy $ex?

i think God have made us both enjoying our nature.i do not think there is any subservience in that.

logicboy:


1) Are there not single females that will go to heaven as well?

and who says they won't have the option of marrying/husbands? my Quran says the believers,both men and women,would be rewarded and given their wishes in paradise.

2) In Jannah, Muhammad and his followers would be in spirit form. Last time I checked spirits do not need food or sex. Does Allah need companionship?

you are very silly!

Islam taches us that there would be a physical paradise.who says we would be spirits?are you a spirit on earth for you to be raised a spirit in the hereafter?

@emofine2
As tbaba rightly said, women wouldnt be subservient to men in paradise... I'll like to believe i understand you properly now hence this response...
Islamically, humans and jinns are the only creation of Allah given the free will to make decisions as u have already made yours in regards to marriage. Still, Allah has given us the guidelines to attaining salvation, explaining the acceptable and not acceptable. Emofine2, if there were no pious to inhabit paradise then there would be no houris awaiting them...all is in the master plan. Unlike humans, the houris in paradise are creation given their role by Allah and are well contended and satisfied with such role they are to play; for there isnt any narration to state otherwise...such is the case of the angels too. Permit me to also want to state my opinion after much thought in regards to females attaining paradise and what will become of them. As rightly stated from d Qur'an by lagosshia, male and female in paradise shall receive thier rewards in full, given whatsoever h/she wishes for. I believe it true that a woman who attains paradise without a husband perhaps she died young or her husband didnt make it to paradise will be rewarded with whatever she wishes for; being on her own or with a companion...we all know that human naturally are inclined to companionship.
Now the paradise we talking about is perfect, there is no competition with friends or foes, no house chores or babies to care for, no filth will come from you, may i also mention there will be male servants at your beck and call with cups made of silver and gold, you recline on lofty cushions underneath perpetual shades, your wants and needs are instantaneously catered for...how can you then be subservient to anyone?

^emofine2 is suffering from the effects of western indoctrination. It is the classic case of believing that men and women must always be treated the same- which is a very popular farce, I have given examples before of how this is a big fat lie but she cannot kick the idea out of her head. A woman that enters paradise will have all that she desires and will not have time to be worried about whether men have Houris or not. There are many things she cannot understand. For example, does she know that angels never take the form of a female whether human or animal? I guess she would find that offensive too. In the real world equity is the ideal not equality- for all intent and purposes we are not the same although a man is not inferior to a woman and vice versa. I know we have said virtually everything that needs to be said on this issue. It is up to emofine to take it or leave it.

LagosShia:

is it only men that enjoy $ex?

i think God have made us both enjoying our nature.i do not think there is any subservience in that.

*sigh*

I reiterate again, my emphasis was not on sex and my previous reply which you responded to betrayed nothing of the sort.
The purpose of the houris being created and whether they are being objectified was what I was focusing on.

Sino I appreciate your response, thanks.

maclatunji: ^emofine2 is suffering from the effects of western indoctrination. It is the classic case of believing that men and women must always be treated the same- which is a very popular farce, I have given examples before of how this is a big fat lie but she cannot kick the idea out of her head.

Amusing...Whilst your basking in the effects of Islamic indoctrination?
Maclatunji do you think I don’t know that women and men have differences?....even any two men or two women cannot really be treated identical...however our differences should be equally respected. Being created to be a man or a woman’s trophy is demeaning and objectifying hence my line of questioning because that is how I perceived the houris to be. And like I said in my opening post, the same question still applies if there are male versions reserved for any female believers.

And no you haven't given me (maybe you're mistaking me with someone else) any examples of how this is a big fat lie so I don't understand where you derived your last conclusion from.

A woman that enters paradise will have all that she desires and will not have time to be worried about whether men have Houris or not.

That's good for her but I was specifically discussing the nature and purpose of the houris not the other female cast.

There are many things she cannot understand. For example, does she know that angels never take the form of a female whether human or animal?
I guess she would find that offensive too.

offensive too? Do you think that I was inspired to ask my earlier questions because I was offended on behalf of the houris?

Actually I'm not offended that angels supposedly take the male form it just makes me wonder why it must be gender specific...

In the real world equity is the ideal not equality- for all intent and purposes we are not the same although a man is not inferior to a woman and vice versa.

Maclatunji some of your conclusions about me is premature because I am of the same opinion regarding what you have written above.

emöfine2: Does the presence of Houris in Paradise as a heavenly reward cater to the objectification of females?

Is the sole purpose of the creation of the Houris to pleasure the men who’ll inhabit heaven?

If so then doesn’t this serve to objectify females?

And if there are male characters that are reserved for the women who’ll inhabit heaven (as I’ve been told) my questions still stands as vice versa.

even though late on this thread, and some of my thoughts already expressed, I see a need to make my position clear.

First, you cant term whatever happens to the houris objectification. If you do that then you may have to question why angels are the way they are, never with free will and always following the commands of Allah-would you term that objectification of angels?.how about animals, allowed to be killed, used for farm work, means of tranportation, etc. Next would be to question why some are born rich and others poor. It could even get as ridiculous as why a part of clay was used in creating Adam and the rest tramped on by Adam and his offspring. know please that Allah is God, the creator and the doer of whatever pleases him. Continuous questioning of his ways lead to knowwhere good. And thank God you are a religious person. To an atheist, the terms would av bn different.

Houris av roles and are not provided the kinds of thoughts that makes humans reject\accept the words of God. There's no jealousy in their hearts and are satisfied with their position with Allah.

In addition to that, women are not the only creations in paradise. The Qur'an describes the presence of young boys who serve as servants too. They are described as pearls.wouldnt you see that as a beautiful description too?

and concerning the arguments with regards the position of women in a marriage. I av said it times without number that some people use their cultural background to present the position Islam puts women and then religion capitalists can call islam a religion that tramples on their right.

Women arent objects for his sexual gratification. She plays the role as much as he does it. A woman is even allowed to divorse the man on the grounds that he cannot satisfy her intimate needs.I expect this to be enough proof to that effect.

maclatunji: ^emofine2 is suffering from the effects of western indoctrination. It is the classic case of believing that men and women must always be treated the same- which is a very popular farce, I have given examples before of how this is a big fat lie but she cannot kick the idea out of her head. A woman that enters paradise will have all that she desires and will not have time to be worried about whether men have Houris or not. There are many things she cannot understand. For example, does she know that angels never take the form of a female whether human or animal? I guess she would find that offensive too. In the real world equity is the ideal not equality- for all intent and purposes we are not the same although a man is not inferior to a woman and vice versa. I know we have said virtually everything that needs to be said on this issue. It is up to emofine to take it or leave it.

So says Imam maclatunji, all I can say is thank God our Igbo women are not subject to this nonsense !!!

Now do what you do best , delete - typical Sharia proponent

Bottom line is that in your brand of ISLAM I like to imagine, women are not treated equally, I see many Muslims women in the UK living miserable lives - Fact !!

emöfine2: Sino I appreciate your response, thanks.



Amusing...Whilst your basking in the effects of Islamic indoctrination?
Maclatunji do you think I don’t know that women and men have differences?....even any two men or two women cannot really be treated identical...however our differences should be equally respected. Being created to be a man or a woman’s trophy is demeaning and objectifying hence my line of questioning because that is how I perceived the houris to be. And like I said in my opening post, the same question still applies if there are male versions reserved for any female believers.

And no you haven't given me (maybe you're mistaking me with someone else) any examples of how this is a big fat lie so I don't understand where you derived your last conclusion from.


That's good for her but I was specifically discussing the nature and purpose of the houris not the other female cast.



offensive too? Do you think that I was inspired to ask my earlier questions because I was offended on behalf of the houris?

Actually I'm not offended that angels supposedly take the male form it just makes me wonder why it must be gender specific...



Maclatunji some of your conclusions about me is premature because I am of the same opinion regarding what you have written above.

Awwww, do I detect a slight tone of hurt there? Ok, I am truly sorry but trust me, Houri's aren't objects and are happy with what God has created them to be. I know that you are somebody I can always argue with without it degenerating so I don't want you to feel offended. I have an article that we might all find helpful. I will post soon.

Superiority of Muslim Women over Hoors (Hoor al-
ayn/Hurs/Houris)* in Jannah (Paradise) in light of the Holy Quran
and Hadiths:

Praise be to Allah (Subhaanahu Wa' Ta’aalaa); Allâh (SWT) says in the Holy Quran: "Houris (beautiful, fair females) restrained in pavilions ...With Whom no man or jinn "yatmithhunna" (has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse) before them." [Sura Ar-Rahmân (55):72,74] According to Ibn Kathir (died 1373 CE) in his Koranic commentary (Tafsir) of above mentioned Surah Al-Rahman (55), verse 72: "The Prophet Muhammad (ملسو یلع لا لص ہ ہ ) was heard saying: ‘The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a [Yemen]’." At-Tirmizi, vol. 2 states on page 138: The Prophet Muhammad (ملسو یلع لا لص ہ ہ ) s aid "Every man who enters paradise shall be given 72 (seventy-two) houris; no matter at what age he had died,when he is admitted into paradise, he will become a thirty-year-old, and shall not age any further. A man in paradise shall be given virility equal to that of one hundred men".

Narrated from Anas (R.A.) that the Prophet Muhammad (ملسو یلع لا لص ہ ہ ) said: “A believer man will have 73 wives in heaven. We asked him (ملسو یلع لا لص ہ ہ ): Will he able to do (i.e. have sex with all of them) this? And He (ملسو یلع لا لص ہ ہ ) replied: He will be given power of 100 (men).” [Abu Na’eem Sifat al-Jannah] Now many people want to know that: who will be superior the Muslim women of this world or the Houris (hoor al-Ayn/hur ul-Ayn/hoors/hurs) in Islamic Paradise? If you too want to know then you can read this whole article till the end.

Houris (hoor al-ayn/hurs/hoors) are completely a different creation and are unmatched when compared with the Muslim women of this world: *Definition of Houris (hoor al-Ayn/hur ul-Ayn/hoors/hurs) from Noble Quran: "Very fair females created by Allah as such not from the off-spring of Adam, with intense black irises of their eyes and intense white scleras". [Noble Quran; Glossary; Houris] So it is obvious that houris (hoor al-Ayn) will be different from the off-springs of the Prophet
Adam (A.S.), and as humans are the most superior creation of Allah (SWT) so Muslim women are superior to houris just like we as humans are superior to Jinns, Angels and all other creatures of Allah (SWT) that exist. So a hoori who is one of the delights of Paradise, she has only been created in Paradise for the sake of someone else, and has been made the reward for the believing man for his righteous deeds. But for Muslim women, they themselves are from the off-springs of Adam and the rewards of Paradise are created for them and on the contrary houris (hoor al-Ayn) themselves are from the rewards of Paradise. Therefore, the houris (hoor al-Ayn) are not from the offsprings of Adam (A.S.) and have their own attributes and are living in Paradise since it was created. But righteous women of this world will enter Paradise after surviving the pains, hardships and performing righteous deeds in this world.

A superior recreation and high status of Muslim women in the Hereafter (in Paradise): Allah (SWT) mentions that He will recreate Muslim women in Paradise in the following verse of Quran: "Lo! We have created them a (new) creation. And made them virgins…" [Sura Al-Waqi`ah (56): 35-36] That is, Allah will recreate the elderly women and make them virgins; the same will be done for old men, Allah will make them youth. This is also mentioned in the following Hadith: Al-Hasan Al-Basri says that: "An old woman came to the messenger of Allah and made a request, O’ Messenger of Allah make Dua that Allah grants me entrance into Jannah. The messenger of Allah replied, O’ Mother, an old woman cannot enter Jannah. That woman started crying and began to leave. The messenger of Allah said, Say to the woman that one will not enter in a state
of old age, but Allah will make all the women of Jannah young virgins (forever)." [At-Tirmizi] It is also mentioned in the Hadith that the women of this worldly life have superiority over houris(hoor al-Ayn) due to the acts of worship and obedience that they performed in this world.

Therefore, the believing women will enter Paradise just like the believing men. If a woman had a number of husbands, she, upon entering Paradise with them, would choose among them the one with the best character and behavior.

(To be continued)

Continuation

The following Hadiths confirms the fact stated above: Umme Salamah (Radiahallahu Anha) narrates that she said to the Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) "O Rasûlullah, are the women of this world superior or the hûrs (of Paradise)?" He replied, "The women of this world will have superiority over the hûrs (houris) just as the outer lining of a garment has superiority over the inner lining." Umme Salamah R.A then asked, "O Rasûlullah, what is the reason for this?" He answered, "Because they performed salâh, fasted, and worshipped [Allah]. Allah will put light on their faces and silk on their bodies. [The human women] will be fair in complexion and will wear green clothing and yellow jewelry. Their incense-burners will be made of pearls and their combs will be of gold. They will say, 'We are the women who will stay forever and we will never die. We are the women who will always remain in comfort and we will never undergo difficulty. We are the women who will stay and we will never leave. Listen, we are happy women and we will never become sad. Glad tidings to those
men for whom we are and who are for us.'" [Tabrânî]

Al-Qurtubi said: Abu Bakr ibn al-Najjaad said: Ja’far ibn Muhammad ibn Shaakir told us,‘Uba yd ibn Ishaaq al-‘Attaar told us, Sinaan ibn Haaroon told us, from Humayd from Anas that: Umm Habeebah the wife of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “O Messenger of Allaah, if a woman had two husbands in this life, then they all died and came together in Paradise, with which of them would she be – the first or the last?” He said: “With the one whose attitude and conduct with her was best, O Umm Habeebah; a good attitude brings one the best of this world and the Hereafter.”[Al-Tadhkirah fi Ahwaal al-Mawtaa wa’l-Aakhirah,
2/278]

Imam Qurtubi in his "at-Tadhkirah fi-Ahwalil Mawta wa'l-Akhirah (in Remembrance of the Affairs of the Dead and Doomsday)" and Ibn Kathir in his "al-Bidaya wa'n-Nihaya (Kitabu’l- Fitan wa’l-Malahim) the Termination of the Afflictions and Fierce Battles" tell the story of the songs of houri in heaven: “Houri will sing for their own husbands, songs are so marvelous that every hearer will be so pleased. Houri will say: “We are Houri who has not had a sin.” The women of this world will reply them saying: “We are the fasters (who keep fast), and you are not, we are the prayers, but you are not and we are the givers of charity but you are not.”

And there is another narration which is famous with the name "Hadith of Soor" narrated from Abu Hurayrah (R.A.) that the Prophet Muhammad (ملسو یلع لا لص ہ ہ ) said that: “Every man in heaven will go to 72 of the creatures of Allah (houris) and 2 of the women of mankind, these two
women are superior to the creatures of Allah (houris) with their worshipping (good deeds) they
had performed in this world.” [Bayhaqi, al-Bas wa’n-Nushur; Tabari, Tafsir; Abu Yala, Ibn Hajar,
Fathu’l-Baari, Tabarani and others]

So it is clear that Muslim women will not feel jealous of the houris (hoor al-Ayn) as righteous women of this world will be much more superior and beautiful than houris (hoor al-Ayn), in Jannah (Paradise). Thus the situation of the believing woman in Paradise will be better than the situation of the houris (hoor al-Ayn); she will be higher in status and more beautiful. If a righteous woman from among the people of this world enters Paradise, then she will do so as a reward for her righteous
deeds and as an honor from Allah to her for her religious commitment and righteousness. As for the houri who is one of the delights of Paradise, is an immortal woman, who does not age. She speaks softly and does not raise voice at her man; she is always reconciled with him. Having been brought up in luxury, she is a luxury herself, she has only been created in Paradise for the sake of someone else, and has been made the reward for the believing man for his righteous deeds. There
is a great difference between one who enters Paradise as a reward for her righteous deeds and the one who was created as a reward for one who did righteous deeds. The former is a queen and a princess, and the latter, no matter how beautiful she is, is undoubtedly lower in status than a queen, and she (houri) is subject to the command of her believing master (man) for whom Allah created her as a reward.

One Important Note (Must Read): Some Non-Muslims point out to verses in the Qur'an, which speak about how Muslim men would
be able to have sex with the Houris in paradise. Then they exclaim that this is immorality or fornication. However, we must pay close attention to what the Quran actually says...

Allâh (SWT) says in the Holy Quran: So (it will be), and We shall marry them toHouris (female fair ones) with wide, lovely eyes. [Surah Ad-Dukhân (44):54] "But those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh - Islâmic Monotheism) and do deeds of righteousness, We shall admit them to Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise), abiding therein forever. Therein they shall have Azwâjun Mutahharatun [purified mates or wives (having no menses, stools, urine, etc.)] and We shall admit them to shades wide and ever deepening(Paradise)." [Sura An-Nisâ' (4): 57]

The word used here isAZWAAJ. In Arabic, it means spouse. Notice, the key word, SPOUSES. The houris (hoors/hurs) will be the wives of Muslim men in Paradise. If a man has sex with his wife, is that fornication? No, of course not, she is his spouse. So, if a man can legitimately have sex with his spouse here on earth, then why can't a man legitimately have sex with his spouse in paradise.

Having said that, the gretest reward for the Muslim believers, men and women, in Jannah(Paradise) will be to view the Countenance (Apperance) of Allah (SWT). And for the believers there will be nothing more delightful than looking at Him;

This is mentioned in the following Hadiths: Imam Ahmad recorded from Suhayb ibn Sinan ar-Rumi: The Messenger of Allah recited, (the words meaning), “For those who have done good is the best and even more.” [Sura Yunus, 26] He said, “When the people of Paradise enter Paradise, a caller will say: `O people of Paradise, Allah has promised you something that He wishes to fulfill.' They will reply: `What is it Has He not made our Scale heavy Has He not made our faces white and delivered us from Fire?' He (the narrater) said:"Allah will then remove the veil (from their eyes), and they will look at the Countenance (Appearance) of Allah, the Mighty, the Majestic.” He said, “By Allah, they have not been given anything dearer to them and more delightful than looking at Him.” [Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Muslim] Narrated Suhayb ibn Sinan ar-Rumi: The Apostle of Allah said: "When those deserving of Paradise would enter Paradise, the Blessed and the Exalted would ask: Do you wish Me to give you anything more? They would say: Has You not brightened our faces? Has You not made us enter Paradise and saved us from Fire? He (the narrator) said: He (God) would lift the veil (from their eyes), and of things given to them nothing would be dearer to them than the sight of their Lord, the Mighty and the Glorious." [Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Number 0347] Doubtless we, the men and women, are promissed to have what we want in Paradise (Jannah); Allâh (SWT) says in the Holy Quran: "Therein you shall have (all) that your inner selves desire, and therein you shall have (all) for which you ask for.” [Sura Fussilat 41:31-32]

End

Source: http://www.scribd.com/doc/4851831/Superior...Jannah-Paradise

The bolded shows two things:

1. Houri have a mind of their own.

2. Whether Houri or daughter of Adam, women will always be women. Imagine the heavenly sparring there.

You ladies should stop trying so hard to prove yourselves. We know your worth and we value you for what and whom you are. Just stop feeling insecure for crying-out loud! 'To be a woman is beautiful and a good thing', you women should stop trying to define yourselves by comparing yourselves to men all the time- it is a defeatist mentality.

deols: And thank God you are a religious person. To an atheist, the terms would av bn different.

Lol I’m not religious actually but not an atheist I’m just curious.

even though late on this thread, and some of my thoughts already expressed, I see a need to make my position clear.

Thanks for expressing your thoughts all the same.

maclatunji:

Awwww, do I detect a slight tone of hurt there? Ok, I am truly sorry but trust me, Houri's aren't objects and are happy with what God has created them to be. I know that you are somebody I can always argue with without it degenerating so I don't want you to feel offended. I have an article that we might all find helpful. I will post soon.

Haha I’m not a fan of assumptions but worse things have been directed at me on this site. I know you mean no harm so I’m never offended when in dialogue with you even when we may disagree...no need for apologies I just hope I haven’t offended you during the course of our discussion sha.

emöfine2:

Lol I’m not religious actually but not an atheist I’m just curious.



Thanks for expressing your thoughts all the same.




Haha I’m not a fan of assumptions but worse things have been directed at me on this site. I know you mean no harm so I’m never offended when in dialogue with you even when we may disagree...no need for apologies I just hope I haven’t offended you during the course of our discussion sha.

You have O, by saying you are an Atheist, I know you will grow out of it- youthful exuberance, I says.

maclatunji:

You have O, by saying you are an Atheist, I know you will grow out of it- youthful exuberance, I says.

Assumptions...assumptions...tut...tut....read my response to deols

emöfine2:

Assumptions...assumptions...tut...tut....read my response to deols

Oh dear! It is either my eyesight is rather bad or I really need a vaction. I read that and saw "I’m not religious actually but an atheist I’m just curious."

. I have to write a book! I have to write a book!! I have to write a book!!!

emöfine2:

Lol I’m not religious actually but not an atheist I’m just curious.



Thanks for expressing your thoughts all the same.




Haha I’m not a fan of assumptions but worse things have been directed at me on this site. I know you mean no harm so I’m never offended when in dialogue with you even when we may disagree...no need for apologies I just hope I haven’t offended you during the course of our discussion sha.

i hope u'd entertain my curiosity as well.
If u arent atheist and not religious, what is ur religious belief

deols:

i hope u'd entertain my curiosity as well.
If u arent atheist and not religious, what is ur religious belief

Do you mean what is my belief about religion or what is my "religious belief" or simply what are my beliefs?

hmmn sorry.

What is your belief about religion
and

what are your beliefs