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Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by Goshen360(m): 9:28pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
Image123: I didn't throw away any context. The context is "AS ALSO SAITH THE LAW". Then if it is that then you you (Image123) and haibe also follow the content of the law as per that 1 Cor 11? That is the point since the law also say so. Do You? @ Image123, I can also see you are cherry picking after I asked to refute your article and also, don't your denomination also preach trouser for women? Are we to say your Bishop is wrong? Are women kept silence in your denomination also AS SAITH THE LAW? Don't women speak in your church? These questions you also need to answer please. You guys are the ones mixing law (old wine) into the new wine skin (Grace). It doesn't work that way. It is also in the ceremonial that women not enter the temple when menstruating, do you practice that? Kill your wayward children, Are you also practicing that? You guys are simply not getting it. 1 Like |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by Goshen360(m): 9:30pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
Ptolomeus: ~ Hug returned~ |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by Goshen360(m): 9:36pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
Ptolomeus: lolz. I told "haibe" to open a thread about women not speaking in worship places but if he doesn't, I will open it in due season. It's good we trash out this trouser nonsense first. It is obvious the religious spirit is at work. People just read into the scriptures, there is no Christian injunction that women should be silent in churches except they mis-understood Apostle Paul and the other one is women should cover their head. All is being mis-understood but we can trash it by sound teaching. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by Ptolomeus(m): 9:41pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
Goshen360:My dear friend ... I'm always happy to greet you. Indeed. There are biblical passages that say women must cover their heads ... and much more. Orthodox Jews do not allow women to be with men, nor do they speak. The Islamic ... well ... it's a very controversial topic, right? It would be nice to be studied in this thread. I am no expert on the subject, but it is interesting. I'm happy to have saluted! |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by haibe(m): 9:41pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
@Goshen i don't want to draw my attention away from deut 22:5 so i may not answer some of your claims related to some other verses, first of all, the New Testament clearly affirms that as Gentile Christians, we don’t need to bother trying to adapt to the culture of the Jews. We don’t need to eat what they eat, and wear what they wear. This verse is about clothing, so we should note that we don’t have to try to adopt the clothing and culture of the Israelites. But Scripture also affirms, in both the Old and New Testaments, that there are differences between men and women, and that those differences should be maintained. The things that make us distinct should remain distinctions. This starts in Genesis 1:27 (chapters 1-2) where God makes people of 2 sexes, male and female, (maybe even with slightly different roles – Adam naming the animals? authority?). There is divine distinction between the sexes among the Israelites, even among utensils that they used (Ex. 22:6, Lev, 11:32, 13:49). Men and women have different roles among the Israelite people. They continue to dress differently throughout both testaments. In the New Testament, we see some changes. It is especially important to notice that the status of women is lifted up. Jesus treats them differently than the surrounding culture. He values them and treats them as if they are as important as men. And later on, we see that in the church we are all equal before God, and equally gifted for helping God’s Church. In Galatians 3:28, Paul explains that we are all equal in Christ Jesus, receiving his salvation, whether male or female, or Jew or Gentile. We are all united together in the church. But distinctions among the sexes remain. We don’t completely cease to be who we are when we come to Christ. We remain in the cultures we come from, even though how we act changes. We remain slave or free when we come to Christ. We remain Jew or Gentile. We remain man or woman. The distinctions among the sexes don’t go away. And even the different roles for the sexes remained. Men and women have different though very similar roles in marriage (Ephesians 5). They are both supposed to serve each other, but in slightly different ways. And men and women may or may not have different roles in the church. (This is a completely different debate, and I for one believe that women should be allowed to serve as pastors in church leadership. I believe that certain distinctions between gender are timeless principles that were taught in the New Testament, like marriage roles. But I believe that the New Testament is not consistent in saying “No” to women in church leadership, and that in some cases we see in Scripture that they were allowed to be in church leadership(phoebe). The cases where they were told not to teach or lead, I believe are unique. Because of the problems in the church or surrounding city, Paul did not want women to teach just in those cases). One of the most important passages for our purposes is 1 Corinthians 11. This is the passage about women wearing head coverings in church. It is largely ignored by churches because we have mostly forgotten why we don’t literally follow the teachings of this passage. In general though, this passage is about maintaining the cultural distinctions among gender and dress, so that people aren’t offended in the church and surrounding culture. Today, this looks very different and has nothing to do with head coverings as it did for the Corinthian church. (Someday maybe I will give an in depth explanation of 1 Corinthians 11). But it teaches us the principle that Deuteronomy 22:5 teaches, that there are still distinctions among the dress between men and women that need to be upheld. Each culture is different. Some cultures have clothing for men which is similar to clothing for women in our culture. The point is not that all cultures need to be the same. In fact, many of the differences in dress between men and women might be arbitrary. And cultures can slowly change. But in general, we must uphold those differences in dress in a culture, and appear as a man, or appear as a woman. I only quoted some of this passages for references not for you to comment on them i quoted 1 corinthians 11:4-8 to show you that some laws in the OT are still binding on men and women in the NT and also see verses 14-16, we can see how those verses still focuses on gender differences , we see that deut 22:5 is a part. Of the OT and NT doctrine that governs proper relationship between both sexes. What we christians are doing is what Jesus warned the pharises's about, they were making the word of God of none effect(mark 7:13) and we christians also are doing just the same because we don't like that commandment of deut 22:5 Once again, i am not teaching from the knowledge i have gotten from my denomination. I know deutronomy 22:5 is a moral law and we are still obliged to obey it, you can't call it a ceremonial law because its not(i wouldn't want to go too far). But this is an ethical regulation in the interest of morality, wearing what belongs to the opposite sex has always been seen as un-natural and indecent and when something is in-decent, it is not conforming with generally accepted standards of MORALITY(microsoft dictionary), how then can you think deut 22:5 isn't a moral law? And if you agree it is, what stops you from obeying it? The new testament also condemns effeminates, so what then is our problem if even the NT condemns it, i often ask "will it look right if men in Nigeria start wearing skirts? And i receive answers that it will not be right, i.e they will look like girls(effeminate). What then is our problem for God sake, why are we trying to shy away from just a simple moral law? I will ask this Question again to you Goshen, If your Dad start wearing skirts and your mum skirts also, will it make sense in your sight? Talkless of God that calls it an ABOMINATION. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by Ptolomeus(m): 9:50pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
@Haibe In Africa, men wore skirts for hundreds of years! The Jews actually used them! Catholic priests still use the! Which tradition are you talking about? Here the only problem is the woman! "The muejr should cover her head," "women are not pure" "women should be silent" "Women can not learn the Torah" It's no moral issue, however, is a subject IMMORAL, Rules imposed by individuals twisted brain, possibly impotent sexually, and who feel threatened by women ... Let's see ... of individuals who believe that sex is a sin ... what else can we expect, unless the discriminatory treatment of women. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by Goshen360(m): 9:58pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
@ haibe, First, Kindly learn to write in paragraphs. Second, I "think" (am not passing judgment on you though) you are adding the religious spirit of the law into this matter. haibe: @Goshen i don't want to draw my attention away from deut 22:5 so i may not answer some of your claims related to some other verses, first of all, [size=20pt]the New Testament clearly If you agree to this, what then are you arguing about women wearing trouser or this and that. Okay, if you even say women should not wear trouser, how about women kind of trouser abi women are different from men because they have four legs? Is it not same 2 legs abi wetin you dey talk? lolz. Okay, let's put it this way, if it was an abomination in the OT to the Jews, where does it become an abomination in the Gospel abi u forget wetin abomination mean? As for the women covering head and being silent in the church, Kindly open another thread and let's trash it our sir. I will be glad to fellowship with you on those two subject. Also, Paul didn't say ministers should be PAID, I had opened a thread for this before. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by haibe(m): 9:58pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
Goshen360:So if some people don't obey the word of God, what does that have to do with you? (Am not saying am disobeying the word of God), am only showing you that you can't base your obedience to God on men's standard. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by Goshen360(m): 10:04pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
haibe: Am not basing my obedience or teaching on men's standard. We are teaching bible here and it is simply out of NT teaching that women should not wear trouser. In fact, if most of the moral laws are repeated in the NT, why do we still act on it with the spirit of the OT and the spirit of the law? Why? Huh. I tire for una o |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by haibe(m): 10:06pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
Goshen360: @ haibe,Lol why are you picking a verse out of a whole chapter of mine, read my post well to understand the point i gave there. You haven't still understood my posts, that verse says "and all that do so" its an abomination to you and me Still leave other verses for next time let's finish this one , you haven't still answered my question about your Dad wearing skirts. Am waiting. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by haibe(m): 10:12pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
Goshen360: @ haibe,Get the points i gave, don't just pick a verse without understanding the chapter, what you quoted was just an introduction to my post. Read well. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by Goshen360(m): 10:16pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
haibe: So you mean I will condemn my dad if he chose to wear skirts or even gown? I guess you are kidding, lolz. The answer to your "and ALL that do so" is that God who said it to the Jews but left it out to the church or Christians are you wiser than that God? |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by haibe(m): 10:19pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
Ptolomeus: @Haibe Sorry but you lack understanding on this issue, or probably you haven't read our previous posts. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by haibe(m): 10:26pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
Goshen360:Am not saying you should condemn your dad but will you support him if he starts wearing skirts? And are you saying the ALL there refers to the jews only? |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by Goshen360(m): 10:32pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
haibe: See, if within the context of the word of God my dad wear skirts and it is not wrong from the NT where I belong, then I dont see anything wrong in that especially when it concerns wearing it to worship centre. The context of that "ALL" is for the Jews only because they are the ones that law was given to. I can show you many instances in the Bible as to how a context is used. For instance, if we are in a worship centre and the pastor say ALL should stand, Are you telling me that me that listen to that message on the tape or watch the video will also stand up? |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by haibe(m): 10:33pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
Goshen360:Who is acting with the spirit of OT here, simple question, is it a sin and we said yes since its an abomination to God, time doesn't change Gods commandment for you to obey. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by haibe(m): 10:38pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
@Goshen when Jesus tells his disciples to love their neighbours as their self, does he want only christians to love their neighbour as their selves? |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by Ptolomeus(m): 10:39pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
haibe: Believe me I've read enough. People traumatized, sick, disguise their true feelings with alleged moral rules. There are people who condemn se.x, arguing that it is sin, and instead, they are satisfied with pornography ... Twisted thoughts that seek justified on moral or religious rules nonexistent. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by Goshen360(m): 10:46pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
haibe: If you are not acting in the spirit of the OT, and you call it a sin, then you should know and understand that was based on the OT ceremonial laws and never a single verse in the NT repeat such a thing for Christians. This is the reason I said you are acting in the spirit of the OT. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by haibe(m): 10:50pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
Goshen when Gog says something is an abomination to him, what stops it from being an abomination to him in the context of deut 22:5? |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by Goshen360(m): 10:50pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
haibe: @Goshen when Jesus tells his disciples to love their neighbours as their self, does he want only christians to love their neighbour as their selves? lolz. Do you know that Salvation is not originally for the Gentiles but we were ENGRAFTED into the covenant and not limited to a nation only called nation of Israel. I have argued here many times that Matthew to John, the OT was still in effect and even it Jesus said it or not. it is instinctive that we don't hate. Besides, love is all over the NT. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by haibe(m): 10:51pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
Goshen360:Ceremonial what? What is the difference between a moral law and a ceremonial law and what makes deut 22:5 a caremonial law? |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by Goshen360(m): 10:53pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
haibe: Goshen when Gog says something is an abomination to him, what stops it from being an abomination to him in the context of deut 22:5? You still not getting it that Deut 22:5 is NOT for the church. There are other ceremonial laws in that Deut 22, do you also follow them? If it is/was an abomination, that is/was to Jews NOT to the church/Gentiles. This is the simple point or truth you don't want to agree with. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by JeSoul(f): 10:54pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
Ptolomeus, I hid your first 'comment' as its inappropriate in the spirit of this thread. I know you meant no offense brother . Goshen, I admire your patience & humility more than anything. And I thank you for taking the time to respond to the issues scripturally, me I no fit lol, matters like these just prick me the wrong way. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by haibe(m): 10:54pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
Goshen360:You haven't still answered the question |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by Goshen360(m): 10:55pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
haibe: I have explain the difference up there and am not repeating that sir. If you are to follow women not wearing trouser, kindly read the whole of that Deut 22 and also follow other ceremonial laws or ordinances therein. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by JeSoul(f): 10:59pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
Zodiac61: According to the christian and muslim gods, being female is the sin. Ptolomeus:It is truly unfortunate that beliefs like these lead non-christians to arrive at these conclusions - and Zodiac & ptolomeus are 100% right to surmise as they have - in the 'christian' religion being a woman is the problem. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by Goshen360(m): 10:59pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
JeSoul: Ptolomeus, Thank you my sister. One thing I don't like among my Christian people is that, a forum like this should be an avenue where we come and scrutinize our denominational teachings if they were right or wrong and also test all spirits but we have people coming to dump their denominational teachings on the body of Christ and call it sound doctrines. I don't accept a teaching because my church teach it but I prove it from the word and see if it's not a tradition of men. Many things/teachings are going on in the body of Christ. 1 Like |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by JeSoul(f): 11:05pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
Goshen360:And it is very good as you, haibe & image are talking it out - there are many silent readers who will profit from your discussion. And oh, I have discussed the issue of women speaking in church, women wearing make-up etc etc at least twice with snr brother Image in the past so I will just take the back seat on this one . Cheers & Godbless brother. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by haibe(m): 11:06pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
Goshen360:You see where you are getting it wrong. Because God gave his laws to the isrealites doesn't mean the commandments is meant for them only, of course one nation has to be priviledged to be the one to receive the law from God. Because Jesus did not live in nigeria doesn't mean his commandments are not to be obeyed by Nigerians, he is the God of all flesh and his law is universal. So if we were able to obey the law by our power, you think God will regulate only israel? And leave other gentiles to regulate themselves? Please if God doesn't like something, he doesn't . Whether Jew or Gentile, it is still an abomination to him. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by haibe(m): 11:30pm On Jun 20, 2012 |
Albert Barnes, the commentator who said that once the distinction between men and women is gone there would be great "danger to purity" was in fact very prophetic when he wrote those words. What is fruit of all this? GROSS IMMORALITY... just like in the days of Noah. Even the so called females trousers are now also worn by men and they call it SKINNY this SKINNY that, so can we now see that we are heading to a world where there wouldn't be gender distinctiveness, i know the arguments of some people will be that females trousers are different in that they are tighter or so but they fail to realise that boys have also made theirs tighter and calling it SKINNY trousers, its only someone with spiritual mind that will understand the threat of satan. Things like this will even encourage same gender sex, you might not all understand yet but just don't be surprised when you see great evil and sins start happening as a result of breaking deut 22:5. |
Re: Is Wearing Of Trousers By Female A Sin? by SailorXY: 12:00am On Jun 21, 2012 |
Goshen360: it hurts me to say this, but you are a very confused being... are you in that congregation that permits masturbation? hair perming? you sound very much like one... interpreting the scriptures based on your own understanding SMH |
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