Where are the dead, and what is their condition?" Are the dead immortal and in a conscious state either in heaven or in a subterranean vault known as hell? Or are the dead in the grave, awaiting resurrection, knowing nothing? Here are two diametrically opposite views. One says, "Thou shalt not die, but you will just change form and become like gods." The other says, "The soul that sinneth it shall die" and "he is both dead and buried."

Let us examine some of the Bible texts which concern the intermediate state, the condition of those who have died and await the bodily resurrection of the dead.

First Corinthians 15:52, 53, records, "In a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Commenting on this verse, the Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary says, "Here only, besides 1 Timothy 6:16, the word 'immortality' is found. Nowhere is immortality of the soul, distinct from the body, taught; a notion which many erroneously have derived from heathen philosophers. Scripture does not look for the anomalous state brought about by death, as the consummation to be earnestly looked for (2 Cor. 5:4), but the resurrection." This comment acknowledges that the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is pagan in origin. It acknowledges that resurrection, not death, is the time of change and reward for the believer.

Some interpreters make an artificial distinction between soul and body, and maintain that these verses refer only to the body of the believer. Such a distinction is not seen in Scripture, for the body is part of the soul. God "breathed into his nostrils the breath [or spirit] of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen. 2:7). Notice, not a living body; not that the soul entered the body and he became a living man; but God breathed spirit into the body and "man became a living soul."

Other church leaders have stated their beliefs on the state of man in death: "In AD 150, Justin Martyr wrote, 'If you meet some that are called Christians, who say there is no resurrection of the dead, but immediately when they die their souls are received up into heaven, take care that you do not look on these as Christians.' " Justin was a recognized leader in the first century after Christ, a man still known to have been firm in the true Christian faith.

S. D. McConnell, in his book, "The Evolution of Immortality," states: "Of the early Christians, those who were Greeks brought to the new religion the Platonic idea that the soul was indestructible, and the Greek influence gained the domination in the early church. The Platonic doctrine (doctrine of Plato) of natural immortality came to be accepted. The notion was withstood from the very beginning as being subversive of the very existence of Christianity.

"Theopholis, Irenius, Hacses, Clement of Alexandria, and, most weighty of all, Athanasius, all fought strenuously against it as pagan error which brought to nought the work of Christ."

These men were all pastors in the early church, recognized leaders, who resisted as pagan philosophy, and unscriptural, the idea that man continues a conscious existence between death and the resurrection yet to come.

William Tyndale who, with Coverdale, translated the Bible from Hebrew and Greek into English for the first time in 1535, said this, when debating with a Roman priest about resurrection: "Ye, in putting departed souls in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection. If there should be a heaven, tell me why they are not in as good care as the angels be, and then what cause is there of a resurrection?" The same error causes people today to ask- "If the dead are already in a blissful paradise, why must there yet be a resurrection?" If, however, we accept the Bible truth that the dead know not anything, that they sleep in death, then the resurrection at Jesus' return assumes the importance the Bible places upon it.

John Wesley, founder of the Methodist Church, said in a sermon on Luke 16:31, "It is indeed generally supposed that the souls of good men as soon as dislodged from the body, go directly to heaven, but this opinion has not the least foundation in the oracles of God."

"At the Council of Lateran, in 1513, Pope Leo X first pronounced the doctrine of the immortality of the soul to be a Christian doctrine." It was this dogma, along with other errors, which enraged Martin Luther and caused him to post his 95 theses four years later.

We are in good company when we stand firmly upon the Bible truth that man is a mortal creature, who sleeps in death, and whose only hope for conscious existence after death is in resurrection to immortality when Jesus comes again. This company includes the prophets, Jesus, the apostles, the leaders of the early church, Luther, Tyndale, and John Wesley. These are only a few of the leaders who have resisted the devil's lie; "Thou shalt not surely die."

What does the Bible say about the place and state of the dead? Let us take the example of David, a good man. The Apostle Peter, speaking on the Day of Pentecost, a few days after Jesus' ascension, tells us about David who had then been dead about a thousand years.

Peter said first, "Let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day" (Acts 2:29). This tells where David is: he is dead and buried. Notice the present tense -" he is" both dead and buried - not "he was." Remember, this was 47 days after Jesus\rquote resurrection and a week after his ascension.

It is a popular theory that when David and other good men of pre-Christ days died, they went into a compartment of Hades known as paradise. Then when Jesus ascended to heaven they all ascended with him. However, a week after Jesus' ascension, Peter said that David is still dead and buried. Then Peter went even further and said, in Acts 2:34, "David is not ascended into the heavens." David, like all those who have died, sleeps in death, awaiting the resurrection to come when Jesus returns to earth. David said, "I will be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness" (Psa. 17:15).

Immortality is a condition for which men seek, not a condition into which they are born. Romans 2:7 reads, "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life." We seek for it now! Immortality will be bestowed at the resurrection as we already have read in 1 Corinthians 15:53, and as Jesus promised when He said in Luke 18:29, 30: "There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world [or age] to come life everlasting." Now that life is "hid with Christ in God" (Col. 3:3). It is accounted to us now but, "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Cot. 3:4).

There are those who will say, "But I have always been taught I will go to heaven as soon as I die and that is what I want to believe." Eve wanted to believe that too. She hoped against hope that sin would not result in death but in translation to a new state of existence. The devil encouraged her. Why not forget this devil's lie, and the pagan philosophies of men, and the popular theories of modern religionists, and return to the Word of God to see what it says about the state of the dead?

http://www.resurrectionhope.org/what.htm

Sorry to repeat this topic here my noble brethren, it is for a purpose, to wipe away the lies many have held unto for eons including me.

I was a catholic for many years and even when I became born again still believed in many protestant doctrines that were actually catholic in origin.

As a very inquisitive person I have read countless articles and scripture and shocked to find how deep the deception is.


I have good news for you - if you know of anyone who is dead , either a friend, relative etc , they are not in HELL now , they are asleep in the dust of the earth


The bad news is that on the day of resurrection, those who died in their sin will be destroyed in the lake of fire forever and ever.

Nice article, i am totally in agreement with all the points.
I would like to know if your position on the immortality of the soul and eternal toture is new or wether you have had this view for some years.

dorox: Nice article, i am totally in agreement with all the points.
I would like to know if your position on the immortality of the soul and eternal toture is new or wether you have had this view for some years.

I never gave a second thought to it, always believed whatever I was told ,especially as preaching on fire and brimstone was seen as been tough on sin.

To be honest my view changed about 2 weeks ago, initially I was sceptical but decided to do what the Bereans did, compare scores of scripture from old to new testament.

Remember the bible says God is a Spirit and those that worship him should do so in Spirit and Truth. Also he makes his angels spirits and his servants a flame of fire.

Man is not spirit but flesh, the spirit which is the breath of GOD is what makes man a living soul.

The Hebrew word spirit is represented by רוּחַ pronounced ruwach [/b]and which means breath , or in this instance the breath of GOD.

"the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." - [b]Genesis 2:7

[img]http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/image.cfm?_00EED9BCE55332D0D6C67F2063ED652E2007113F3E95430C15CAAA522F1F052E9DF42E5BD81A98127AA8D1BEABD6A3A69042089A88189F785128A1DFF39095E05[/img]

Therefore we only live because of God's breath in us which males us alive, when we die , it goes back to him.

"and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." - Ecclesiastes 12:7

Psalm 146:4 When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.
רוּחַ

Same thing I did for tithes and prosperity gospel last year.

The deception is deep, and if we do not read our bibles prayerfully with the wisdom of GOD, we will continue with false doctrine.

"'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring." - Acts 17:28

Just to summarise, Man is a mortal living soul because of the breath of GOD in him.

Mathematically,

If Body + ruwach = Living SOUL

Body - ruwach - Dead Body

Therefore Man is mortal not immortal


God bless

Now what about all these peeps who say they'v seen souls in hell n heaven nd what about books like "dying testimonies of saved nd unsaved"by s.b. Shaw?They unequivocally refute this belief.I guess u'll say the bible's supreme.

Beretta92: Now what about all these peeps who say they'v seen souls in hell n heaven nd what about books like "dying testimonies of saved nd unsaved"by s.b. Shaw?They unequivocally refute this belief.I guess u'll say the bible's supreme.

1. Scams
2. Hallucinations
3. Demonic origin
4. Some visions of a hell , may actually be true but in a metaphorical sense to drive home a point or in the case of many Muslims, a revelation of the lake of fire, BUT it will never be like the so called nonsense we hear about , such as different levels in hell with degrees of torture , 23 minutes in hell, 40 days in hell and Jesus taking them on a tour of hell.


Many Muslims and Catholics have had dreams of this same place called Hell .

So the Jehovahs witÑesses have been right all along on this issue

Nice write up frosbel......

Even some who claimed that Jesus's parable of the rich man and lazarus showed abrahÀm was in heaven.....

But Jesus used his own mouth to say no man had ascended into d heavens except d son of man who descended.....

frosbel:

I never gave a second thought to it, always believed whatever I was told ,especially as preaching on fire and brimstone was seen as been tough on sin.

To be honest my view changed about 2 weeks ago, initially I was sceptical but decided to do what the Bereans did, compare scores of scripture from old to new testament.

Remember the bible says God is a Spirit and those that worship him should do so in Spirit and Truth. Also he makes his angels spirits and his servants a flame of fire.

Man is not spirit but flesh, the spirit which is the breath of GOD is what makes man a living soul.

The Hebrew word spirit is represented by רוּחַ pronounced ruwach [/b]and which means breath , or in this instance the breath of GOD.

"the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." - [b]Genesis 2:7

[img]http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/image.cfm?_00EED9BCE55332D0D6C67F2063ED652E2007113F3E95430C15CAAA522F1F052E9DF42E5BD81A98127AA8D1BEABD6A3A69042089A88189F785128A1DFF39095E05[/img]

Therefore we only live because of God's breath in us which males us alive, when we die , it goes back to him.

"and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." - Ecclesiastes 12:7

Psalm 146:4 When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.
רוּחַ

Same thing I did for tithes and prosperity gospel last year.

The deception is deep, and if we do not read our bibles prayerfully with the wisdom of GOD, we will continue with false doctrine.

"'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring." - Acts 17:28

Just to summarise, Man is a mortal living soul because of the breath of GOD in him.

Mathematically,

If Body + ruwach = Living SOUL

Body - ruwach - Dead Body

Therefore Man is mortal not immortal


God bless

Nice explanation....

U just said it all.......

I have always told many that d soul is d person.....


Gods breath is what makes us living souls if not we are as good as dead.....

Even animals are souls......

. . .just one problem with the OP's premise:

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(Luk 16:22-26)

. . .it is clear from Jesus' words that both men died and were buried. Jesus shows us what transpired between these two after death. If a choice be made between Jesus' actual words and some other conjecture, it is clear where the truth lies.

P.S. That one is named John Wesley or William Tyndale does not make one's words Holy Writ.

aletheia: . . .just one problem with the OP's premise:

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(Luk 16:22-26)

. . .it is clear from Jesus' words that both men died and were buried. Jesus shows us what transpired between these two after death. If a choice be made between Jesus' actual words and some other conjecture, it is clear where the truth lies.

P.S. That one is named John Wesley or William Tyndale does not make one's words Holy Writ.

Jesus Christ often spoke in parables, this story was one among a number , which he told in the same chapter.

To now suggest that the rest are parables while this is a true story is not correct.

Besides the bible says that it is appointed unto man to die once , and after that judgement. Even Paul says nothing should be judged before the time.

"So don't make judgments about anyone ahead of time--before the Lord returns. For he will bring our darkest secrets to light and will reveal our private motives. Then God will give to each one whatever praise is due." - 1 Corinthians 4:5

Judgement happens at the final resurrection and after that sentencing and subsequent punishment.

Shall not the judge of the earth do right - Genesis 18:25

That an earthly judge will defer punishment until after judgement means that God has a higher standard of justice and it will take it's due course when the right time arrives.

frosbel:
Jesus Christ often spoke in parables, this story was one among a number , which he told in the same chapter.

To now suggest that the rest are parables while this is a true story is not correct.

^
Are Jesus' parables untrue stories? Your assumption that if it's a parable, then it's untrue is incorrect. Here is a story told by Jesus that mentions two people by name and is a quite clear rendition of what transpires following the death of two men. His disciples had no difficulty understanding this story and did not allegorize it. . .whence cometh thine confusion?

aletheia:
^
Are Jesus' parables untrue stories? Your assumption that if it's a parable, then it's untrue is incorrect. Here is a story told by Jesus that mentions two people by name and is a quite clear rendition of what transpires following the death of two men. His disciples had no difficulty understanding this story and did not allegorize it. . .whence cometh thine confusion?

Is the 'Rich Man ' a name ?

frosbel:

Is the 'Rich Man ' a name ?

^
Calm down and stop hastening to reply. Lazarus and Abraham. . .makes "two people by name".

aletheia:
^
Calm down and stop hastening to reply. Lazarus and Abraham. . .makes "two people by name".

what is the rich man's name ?

frosbel:

1. Scams
2. Hallucinations
3. Demonic origin
4. Some visions of a hell , may actually be true but in a metaphorical sense to drive home a point or in the case of many Muslims, a revelation of the lake of fire, BUT it will never be like the so called nonsense we hear about , such as different levels in hell with degrees of torture , 23 minutes in hell, 40 days in hell and Jesus taking them on a tour of hell.


Many Muslims and Catholics have had dreams of this same place called Hell .

Dont 4get dat also many of our vision-seers re charlatans,imposters n blatant liars;claiming dey saw things dey neva saw in d 1st place,knwing fully well dat several gullible n ingenuous xtians will swallow their lies without ever thinking.especially american ones...i dont give their visions a thot b4 debunking dem.dey'l do anything 4 money n fame.their stories re usually 2 fantastic n each vision-seer always tries 2 outsee n outdo d other.

Beretta92: Dont 4get dat also many of our vision-seers re charlatans,imposters n blatant liars;claiming dey saw things dey neva saw in d 1st place,knwing fully well dat several gullible n ingenuous xtians will swallow their lies without ever thinking.especially american ones...i dont give their visions a thot b4 debunking dem.dey'l do anything 4 money n fame.their stories re usually 2 fantastic n each vision-seer always tries 2 outsee n outdo d other.

thank you , I agree with you !!

I stand on the word of GOD not visions or dreams. They must agree with the word of GOD to be taken seriously.

Still waiting for the rich man's name !

frosbel:
Is the 'Rich Man ' a name ?

frosbel: Still waiting for the rich man's name !

^
Why are you coming off like one who does not read?

aletheia:
^
Are Jesus' parables untrue stories? Your assumption that if it's a parable, then it's untrue is incorrect. Here is a story told by Jesus that mentions two people by name and is a quite clear rendition of what transpires following the death of two men. His disciples had no difficulty understanding this story and did not allegorize it. . .whence cometh thine confusion?

aletheia:
^
Calm down and stop hastening to reply. Lazarus and Abraham. . .makes "two people by name".

. . .as for the rich man's name. . .you will wait until Jesus returns.

Now focus. . .

aletheia: . . .just one problem with the OP's premise:

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(Luk 16:22-26)

. . .it is clear from Jesus' words that both men died and were buried. Jesus shows us what transpired between these two after death. If a choice be made between Jesus' actual words and some other conjecture, it is clear where the truth lies.

P.S. That one is named John Wesley or William Tyndale does not make one's words Holy Writ.

frosbel: Still waiting for the rich man's name !

Lol......

D question I still ask is::was abraham in heaven when Jesus gave that parable?

[quote author=aletheia]

^
Why are you coming off like one who does not read?

I hope we are not fighting !!

. . .as for the rich man's name. . .you will wait until Jesus returns.

Okay , he was a nameless rich man.

Now focus. . .

You are taking 1 scripture, a parable at that , in isolation to define a concept which is nowhere explained from the old to the new testaments.

Nothing will be done before the time, Hell does not exist now, it is a future event, please think about it before your next reply.

Judgement precedes punishment not the other way round, you are not making any sense.

Even the demons are not in hell yet and they committed a greater sin, yet they are roaming around the earth, common bro . How can human beings made in God's image be plunged straight into 'hell' before the judgement , while a more wicked set of beings are still reserved for that great day.

Even the demons in this miracle asked Jesus if he was coming to torment them before their time.

"And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" - Matthew 8:29

Are you telling me that these demons are more righteous than man and are therefore free from Hell for now , while man who they deceived is burning, does not sound logical and it is not scriptural.

Forget about Egos now and look at reality.

ijawkid:

Lol......

D question I still ask is::was abraham in heaven when Jesus gave that parable?

No !

frosbel:
Hell does not exist now

^
And what scripture supports this opinion of yours? The Lake of Fire in Revelation is different from Hell. The word translated Hell is hadēs. . .the same hadēs that in Revelation 20 is cast into the Lake of Fire.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:14)

In the story of the rich man and Lazarus Jesus momentarily lifts the veil and allows us to peer as it were beyond death. . .and we see the rich man and Lazarus separated by "a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." This description shows that hadēs (hell) is not the place of everlasting fire --- else Abraham and Lazarus would not be in shouting distance of the place.

frosbel:
Judgement precedes punishment not the other way round, you are not making any sense.

^
After death comes judgement. . .but hell is the "holding cell" for the disobedient before judgement.
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;(2Pe 2:4)

Your confusion arises from the error that most Christians make in interchanging hell (hadēs) with the everlasting fire that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 25.

frosbel:
Even the demons in this miracle asked Jesus if he was coming to torment them before their time.

"And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" - Matthew 8:29

^
Already alluded to Matthew 25. Here is the scripture:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels (Mat 25:41)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10)

Thus you see what the demons were afraid of. And there is an appointed time for that event as seen in Revelation.

frosbel:
Are you telling me that these demons are more righteous than man and are therefore free from Hell for now , while man who they deceived is burning, does not sound logical and it is not scriptural.

Forget about Egos now and look at reality.

^
No ego here. Leave aside emotional arguments and do not obfuscate the clarity of the Bible with human logic.

aletheia:
^
And what scripture supports this opinion of yours? The Lake of Fire in Revelation is different from Hell. The word translated Hell is hadēs. . .the same hadēs that in Revelation 20 is cast into the Lake of Fire.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:14)

Hades is the grave, nothing more ! Hades ( the grave ) and death were cast into the lake of fire. How can ,in your own opinion, a pre-existing place called hell and burning with fire be cast into the lake of fire ?

This is exactly what Catholics have preached for millennia portraying GOD as a vindictive sadist. God punishes, he is not in the business of torture.

In the story of the rich man and Lazarus Jesus momentarily lifts the veil and allows us to peer as it were beyond death.

Wrong !!

Normally scripture backs up scripture, so show me another verse from the old to new testament that backs up your claim .

. .and we see the rich man and Lazarus separated by "a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." This description shows that hadēs (hell) is not the place of everlasting fire --- else Abraham and Lazarus would not be in shouting distance of the place.

So you really believe that relatives who were saved looked upon their relatives who were not saved , roasting in the hell you mention , I am truly amazed that you are holding unto this 'straw'.

After death comes judgement. . .but hell is the "holding cell" for the disobedient before judgement.
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;(2Pe 2:4)

Your confusion arises from the error that most Christians make in interchanging hell (hadēs) with the everlasting fire that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 25.

Wrong again, I very well understand the difference between hades and hell. Hell is actually the lake of fire, a future event while hades is the grave , simples. In the old testament , hades is called Sheol.

Nothing happens in the grave.

"because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay." - Acts 2:27

Already alluded to Matthew 25. Here is the scripture:
[b]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels (Mat 25:41)

Okay

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10)

Thus you see what the demons were afraid of. And there is an appointed time for that event as seen in Revelation.

You are repeating my point here, why are they out and about while man is burning in your re-defined hades ?, does this make sense to you, what does the bible say on this matter. You are simply depicting Catholic imagery of afterlife.

^
No ego here. Leave aside emotional arguments and do not obfuscate the clarity of the Bible with human logic.

I have to say , I have quoted quite a number of scripture to support my stance, yet you throw logic out of the window to come to the erroneous conclusion that there are people in heaven right now and hell ( burning ). This is false.

^
Quit running around in circles, will ya? The problem here is your propensity to swing from one extreme position to another extreme position. You are basically lost in translation and have built your opinion on an inadequate English word.

The word Hell is one English word that translates three Greek ones: hades, gehenna and tartaros. In the New Testament, "hell" is the translation of these words,

1. Hades, used eleven times in the New Testament, and only once translated "grave" in the KJV in 1 Cor 15:55.
Total KJV Occurrences: 11
hell, 10
Mat 11:23, Mat 16:18, Luk 10:15, Luk 16:23, Act 2:27, Act 2:31, Rev 1:18, Rev 6:8, Rev 20:13-14 (2)
grave, 1
1 Co 15:55

2. Gehenna, the word most frequently used, (occurring twelve times), in the New Testament for the place of future punishment is Gehenna or Gehenna of fire.
Total KJV Occurrences: 12
hell, 12
Mat 5:22, Mat 5:29-30 (2), Mat 10:28, Mat 18:9, Mat 23:15, Mat 23:33, Mar 9:43, Mar 9:45, Mar 9:47, Jam 3:5-6 (2)

3. Tartaros. Occurs once in 2 Pet 2:4.

These words are different but the nuances are lost by subsuming them in just one English word:

1. G86 ᾅδης (hadēs)
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

2. G1067 γέεννα (geenna)
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.

3. G5020 ταρταρόω (tartaroō): From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.

In the light of the foregoing the difference between:
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (hadēs), neither his flesh did see corruption. (Act 2:31)
. . .and. . .
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell(geenna).
(Mat 10:28)
. . .becomes clearer. Also notice how these two verses differentiate between soul and body (flesh).

frosbel:
How can ,in your own opinion, a pre-existing place called hell and burning with fire be cast into the lake of fire ?

^Surely you can't be blind! It is written:
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:14)

frosbel:
This is exactly what Catholics have preached for millennia portraying GOD as a vindictive sadist. God punishes, he is not in the business of torture.
Wrong !!

Catholics! Vindictive sadist! Stop being unduly emotive. God punishes sin. If by torture you mean torment, I can't help you there for it is written:
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:10-11)

frosbel:
Normally scripture backs up scripture, so show me another verse from the old to new testament that backs up your claim .

^
Hades basically means "the unseen place". Many scriptures there are that make allusion to the abode of the dead.

frosbel:
So you really believe that relatives who were saved looked upon their relatives who were not saved , roasting in the hell you mention , I am truly amazed that you are holding unto this 'straw'.

^
Another emotional argument. As it is written clearly with equivocation:
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luk 16:23)
The rich man is remorseful but his choice is fixed, nonetheless he expresses this wish:
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. (Luk 16:27-30)

frosbel:
Wrong again, I very well understand the difference between hades and hell. Hell is actually the lake of fire, a future event while hades is the grave , simples. In the old testament , hades is called Sheol.

Your sentence for it to be correct should read "I very well understand the difference between hades (tr. hell) and gehenna (tr. hell)". So clearly you are still in some confusion in this regard.

frosbel:
Nothing happens in the grave.

"because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay." - Acts 2:27

^
Certainly nothing that you are aware of. And at least for Jesus, this happened: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1Pe 3:19-20)

frosbel:
You are repeating my point here, why are they out and about while man is burning in your re-defined hades ?, does this make sense to you, what does the bible say on this matter. You are simply depicting Catholic imagery of afterlife.

^
Your obsession with all things Catholic leads your off. Again I repeat:
Hades is not the Lake of Fire. Hades is the place the dead go to. The Lake of Fire is the place of final punishment. According to Jesus, hades is a place of torment for the unrighteous, but for the righteous it is not. Simple. Your human logic will lead you astray.

frosbel:
I have to say , I have quoted quite a number of scripture to support my stance, yet you throw logic out of the window to come to the erroneous conclusion that there are people in heaven right now and hell ( burning ). This is false.

None that you quoted has a direct bearing. None contradicts the story of Lazarus and the rich man. The Bible trumps frosbel's logic.

I will leave you with this:
1. So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. (Deu 34:5)
2. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: (Luk 9:30)
3. Moses died --- we know and yet we see Moses here conversing with Jesus, an event attested to by all three synoptic gospels.
4. Where did Moses appear from?
5. Here is a hint: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (Joh 3:13)

@ frosbel

The concept of an immortal soul is not just a teaching of the RCC but is rather professsed by over 80 percent of the christian faith including most pentecostals.Must you always mention. The catholic church?haba even aletheia who is debating with you is not even catholic

aletheia:
The word Hell is one English word that translates three Greek ones: hades, gehenna and tartaros. In the New Testament, "hell" is the translation of these words,

1. Hades, used eleven times in the New Testament, and only once translated "grave" in the KJV in 1 Cor 15:55.
Total KJV Occurrences: 11
hell, 10
Mat 11:23, Mat 16:18, Luk 10:15, Luk 16:23, Act 2:27, Act 2:31, Rev 1:18, Rev 6:8, Rev 20:13-14 (2)
grave, 1
1 Co 15:55

2. Gehenna, the word most frequently used, (occurring twelve times), in the New Testament for the place of future punishment is Gehenna or Gehenna of fire.
Total KJV Occurrences: 12
hell, 12
Mat 5:22, Mat 5:29-30 (2), Mat 10:28, Mat 18:9, Mat 23:15, Mat 23:33, Mar 9:43, Mar 9:45, Mar 9:47, Jam 3:5-6 (2)

3. Tartaros. Occurs once in 2 Pet 2:4.

These words are different but the nuances are lost by subsuming them in just one English word:

1. G86 ᾅδης (hadēs)
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

2. G1067 γέεννα (geenna)
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.

3. G5020 ταρταρόω (tartaroō): From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.

In the light of the foregoing the difference between:
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (hadēs), neither his flesh did see corruption. (Act 2:31)
. . .and. . .
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell(geenna).
(Mat 10:28)
. . .becomes clearer. Also notice how these two verses differentiate between soul and body (flesh).



^Surely you can't be blind! It is written:
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:14)

As clear as the blue skies, you are getting yourself all tangled up, I have done my research and very well aware of the context in which I use the correct meaning of Hell.

Man without the breath is dead, with the breath is a Soul , after the resurrection of the damned he will be consciously thrown into HELL for final punishment and destruction.

Destruction [/b]means exactly what it says.

To start twisting destruction to mean everlating torment is being deceptive. Destruction means to bring to ruin, waste etc.

""And they will go out and look upon the [b]dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." - Isaiah 66:24

I bet in your mind, this verse also means everlasting torment, this is the end of the wicked destruction, not hard to understand.

Catholics! Vindictive sadist! Stop being unduly emotive. God punishes sin. If by torture you mean torment, I can't help you there for it is written:
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:10-11)

You fail to read the meaning into these simple scripture because you are so glued to tradition, logic has now gone out of the window.


Note here :

1. and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Surely yo do not think that for eternity , Our Lord and his angels will be watching these unfortunate souls in torment forever and ever. How weak can your arguments get.

Forever in the bible hardly means for trillions of zillions of years, it means till the purpose has been accomplised , which in this case means death.

"17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
......
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more. ’”


Read again, Satan shall be no more , I hope you know that ashes and no more means just that , now try twisting this one.


2. have no rest day nor night - At the end of the age, there will be no more night or day, so how do you figure out that this means forever when it will either be 'outer darkness' for arguement sake or the new heaven and earth where the lamb will be the light ?

"There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever." - Revelation 22:5


So back to your point, this is simply the punishment of sinners and Satan that will last till they are totally destroyed.

^
Hades basically means "the unseen place". Many scriptures there are that make allusion to the abode of the dead.

Wrong, Hades means the grave

^
Another emotional argument. As it is written clearly with equivocation:
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luk 16:23)
The rich man is remorseful but his choice is fixed, nonetheless he expresses this wish:
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. (Luk 16:27-30)

What is the rich man's name you cannot answer, what is the benefit of people watching others burn and in torment , I am still waiting for your answers, why are the demons not yet in torment you have gone blank on this one. This story is simply used as an allegory , period.

Your sentence for it to be correct should read "I very well understand the difference between hades (tr. hell) and gehenna (tr. hell)". So clearly you are still in some confusion in this regard.

Not confused, I thoroughly understand the meaning, hades is hades , if the KJV Scholars decided to translate it into hell, it does not negate the true Greek meaning.

^
Certainly nothing that you are aware of. And at least for Jesus, this happened: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1Pe 3:19-20)

and who are these spirits, tell me please.

Besides, where does it mention here that they were in torment, you seem to be going off a tangent quoting the same arguments used by eternal torment supporters to argue a case that will not stand up in the court of Law.

^
Your obsession with all things Catholic leads your off. Again I repeat:

The catholics actually had a lot in common with Calvin, both used torture and tyranny to silence their enemies.

Hades is not the Lake of Fire. Hades is the place the dead go to. The Lake of Fire is the place of final punishment. According to Jesus, hades is a place of torment for the unrighteous, but for the righteous it is not. Simple. Your human logic will lead you astray.

Jesus never said that , Hades is the grave. I have compared scripture with scripture and tried to help you, but you insist on taking one verse in the bible out of context to form a false doctrine, there is no other scripture from Genesis to Revelation to backup your theology.

It was not preached by Paul, Peter, any of the apostles for that matter. Surely such an important topic should have been covered in more gruesome detail in the acts of the apostles and other letters to the churches.

Again, Jesus tasted DEATH for man so that we will not have to DIE, he did not taste HELL for us , he tasted DEATH .

None that you quoted has a direct bearing. None contradicts the story of Lazarus and the rich man. The Bible trumps frosbel's logic.

I am using scripture to back up my points, yet you ignore them, darting all over the place looking for verses to take out of context, this is getting desperate.

I will leave you with this:
1. So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. (Deu 34:5)
2. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: (Luk 9:30)
3. Moses died --- we know and yet we see Moses here conversing with Jesus, an event attested to by all three synoptic gospels.
4. Where did Moses appear from?
5. Here is a hint: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (Joh 3:13)

It was a vision


"And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead." - Matthew 17:9


In summary , the idea that God will torment sinners forever and ever is not scriptural.

chukwudi44: @ frosbel

The concept of an immortal soul is not just a teaching of the RCC but is rather professsed by over 80 percent of the christian faith including most pentecostals.Must you always mention. The catholic church?haba even aletheia who is debating with you is not even catholic

I don't care if he is or not , he is holding unto a pagan idea that started with the Greek philosophers such as Plato and was introduced by the Catholics into Christianity.

There is nowhere in the bible were the soul is described as immortal, if there is please show me, I am waiting.

@frosbel..good work..

Keep the answers coming...

Matthew 13:40-43

New King James Version (NKJV)

40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

<<

<

=
=

>Frosbel do you mind explaining how a soul that has been destroyed will be wailing and gnashing their teeth

frosbel:

Jesus Christ often spoke in parables, this story was one among a number , which he told in the same chapter.

To now suggest that the rest are parables while this is a true story is not correct.

Besides the bible says that it is appointed unto man to die once , and after that judgement. Even Paul says nothing should be judged before the time.

"So don't make judgments about anyone ahead of time--before the Lord returns. For he will bring our darkest secrets to light and will reveal our private motives. Then God will give to each one whatever praise is due." - 1 Corinthians 4:5

Judgement happens at the final resurrection and after that sentencing and subsequent punishment.

Shall not the judge of the earth do right - Genesis 18:25

That an earthly judge will defer punishment until after judgement means that God has a higher standard of justice and it will take it's due course when the right time arrives.

I now understand you dont know the reason why Jesus uses the parable as an explaination. And its not bad if you have the same belief of hell as those you mentioned. What i am concern about is you trying to insinuate tjat jesus parable on this issue should be taken with kid gloves. Your expaination is very flawed and different from what the bible preaches.

brainpulse:

I now understand you dont know the reason why Jesus uses the parable as an explaination. And its not bad if you have the same belief of hell as those you mentioned. What i am concern about is you trying to[b] insinuate tjat jesus parable on this issue should be taken with kid gloves[/b]. Your expaination is very flawed and different from what the bible preaches.

Far be from it my friend. Jesus preached on Hell quite often and you or I do not want to go there.

Hell is a place of punishment and torment for the wicked , it is not going to be forever, I guess that's the crux of our discussion here.


The Rich man was probably a direct descendant of Abraham, a privileged Pharisee or Jew, who had been taught at the Kings ( GOD ) table ever since he was a youth, privileged to be entrusted with the oracles of GOD, had status in comparison to the gentiles , knew the ten commandments by heart and yet was disobedient to the very same words of GOD.

Deuteronomy 4:8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?

Romans 9:4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.


Lazarus on the other hand represents the gentiles , he was looked down upon by the Jews, in fact the Jews never wanted to associated with the gentiles seeing them as inferior and far from God. However Lazarus made good use of the crumbs ( the words ) that fell off the rich man's table , heeded them , lived an exemplary life for God and was found to be worthy of eternal life.

Remember the Rich man asked Abraham to go and tell his brothers about this place, and Abraham's response was that they have the law and the prophets and even if one rose from the dead, they will not listen.

When Christ rose from the dead, did they listen , no, till today they are in unbelief and the kingdom has been granted to the gentiles and those Jews who believe.


Consider this verse :


"When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” - Matthew 8:10 - 13


Again Sir, Hell is REAL , it is going to be a painful death but it will not be forever.

I have 'bad' news for you, God is not in the torturing bushiness.

I repeat. . .

aletheia:
Quit running around in circles, will ya? The problem here is your propensity to swing from one extreme position to another extreme position. You are basically lost in translation and have built your opinion on an inadequate English word. . .

The word Hell is one English word that translates three Greek ones: hades, gehenna and tartaros. In the New Testament, "hell" is the translation of these words,

1. G86 ᾅδης (hadēs)
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

2. G1067 γέεννα (geenna)
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.

3. G5020 ταρταρόω (tartaroō): From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.

In the light of the foregoing the difference between:
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (hadēs), neither his flesh did see corruption. (Act 2:31)
. . .and. . .
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell(geenna).
(Mat 10:28)
. . .becomes clearer. Also notice how these two verses differentiate between soul and body (flesh).

. . .


Hades basically means "the unseen place". Many scriptures there are that make allusion to the abode of the dead.

. . .

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luk 16:23)
The rich man is remorseful but his choice is fixed, nonetheless he expresses this wish:
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. (Luk 16:27-30)

. . .

Hades is not the Lake of Fire. Hades is the place the dead go to. The Lake of Fire is the place of final punishment. According to Jesus, hades is a place of torment for the unrighteous, but for the righteous it is not. Simple. Your human logic will lead you astray.

. . .

I will leave you with this:
1. So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. (Deu 34:5)
2. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: (Luk 9:30)
3. Moses died --- we know and yet we see Moses here conversing with Jesus, an event attested to by all three synoptic gospels.
4. [size=16pt]Where did Moses appear from?[/size]
5. Here is a hint: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (Joh 3:13)