chukwudi44: Matthew 13:40-43

New King James Version (NKJV)

40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

<<

<

=
=

>Frosbel do you mind explaining how a soul that has been destroyed will be wailing and gnashing their teeth

aletheia is accusing me of using human logic, he wants me to disengage my brain, yet God gave us intelligence to use it.

I will use human logic here.

Tell me , when we scold and whip our children when they are naughty is it forever ? But do they not weep and cry , sometimes yell and scream. But it ends , right ?

The Lake of Fire is not a Joke, it will be severe punishment, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, however do not misconstrue this to mean that they will weep forever , nay, they will eventually die the second death.

aletheia: I repeat. . .

Now going round and round in circles, not able to address the point

It was a vision !!

Besides aletheia [/b]has not addressed the purpose of this post, which is , [b]IS THE SOUL IMMORTAL ?

He has succeeded in derailing the original intention of this article.

^

aletheia: ^
I will leave you with this:
1. So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. (Deu 34:5)
2. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: (Luk 9:30)
3. Moses died --- we know and yet we see Moses here conversing with Jesus, an event attested to by all three synoptic gospels.
4. [size=16pt]Where did Moses appear from?[/size]
5. Here is a hint: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (Joh 3:13)

aletheia: ^

Back to your normal method of circular arguments.

First of all you refuse to respond to the topic, and then you initiate back and forth arguments ignoring all evidence and scripture contrary to your theories , I then respond to your question about the transfiguration you ignore my answer and go off on a tangent.

I am done discussing with you.

I still continue to ask persons who believe people will literally burn in a fire ,if Satan can actually feel pains....

how much can u torture Satan that will make him feel pains....??

total destruction is d final judgement for Satan and his cohorts..

after all death and well be thrown into the lake of fire...

I wonder if death and hell can also be literally tormented....

frosbel good job ....

^
The Transfiguration was a vision? Visions of dead men? Really? Is that consistent with God who forbids necromancy and the like? Something that was reported as an event. . .For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 2Pe 1:16-18

Fr0sbel:
I am done discussing with you.

^
And so you cut and run because you know that the answer to this question:
[size=16pt]Where did Moses appear from?[/size] causes your opinions on this matter to collapse under the weight of inconsistency.
I repeat:

1. So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. (Deu 34:5)
2. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: (Luk 9:30)
3. Moses died --- we know and yet we see Moses here conversing with Jesus, an event attested to by all three synoptic gospels.
4. Where did Moses appear from?
5. Here is a hint: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (Joh 3:13)

Here is the conclusion: "It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way."

aletheia: ^
The Transfiguration was a vision? Visions of dead men? Really? Is that consistent with God who forbids necromancy and the like? Something that was reported as an event. . .For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 2Pe 1:16-18



^
And so you cut and run because you know that the answer to this question:
[size=16pt]Where did Moses appear from?[/size] causes your opinions on this matter to collapse under the weight of inconsistency.
I repeat:

1. So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. (Deu 34:5)
2. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: (Luk 9:30)
3. Moses died --- we know and yet we see Moses here conversing with Jesus, an event attested to by all three synoptic gospels.
4. Where did Moses appear from?
5. Here is a hint: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (Joh 3:13)

Here is the conclusion: "It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way."

So visions are now necromancy , lol.

Necromancy (/ˈnɛkrɵˌmænsi/) is a claimed form of magic involving communication with the deceased[/b] – either by summoning their spirit as an apparition or raising them bodily – for the purpose of divination, imparting the means to foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge. The term may sometimes be used in a more general sense to refer to black magic or witchcraft.[1][2] - Wikipedia


So Moses was in paradise, right ?

Paradise was never mentioned in the old testament all the way to Jesus , why ? Because no one went to paradise, they died and they remained dead till the resurrection.

"And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said." - Deuteronomy 34:5

Where does it say here that Moses went to Paradise, none, and you know why, because there is no such thing, lol.


Besides, why was SATAN contending for the body of Moses and not his SOUL ? Surely SATAN would not have cared , since Moses was in Paradise right ?


"But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, "The Lord rebuke you!" (This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses' body.)" - Jude 1:9

Why also when Lazarus was raised from the dead did he not tell us stories about what the world yonder looked like ? Even his sisters knew he was dead and that Jesus will raise him on the last day and our Lord used the word 'sleep' here, so how can he be sleeping while is soul is on paradise

"and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." - Ecclesiastes 12:7

Once the spirit ( breath of GOD ) goes out of a man he becomes not a living soul but a dead body , period.

Stop confusing yourself , brother

Good day !!

frosbel:

So visions are now necromancy , lol.

Necromancy (/ˈnɛkrɵˌmænsi/) is a claimed form of magic involving communication with the deceased[/b] – either by summoning their spirit as an apparition or raising them bodily – for the purpose of divination, imparting the means to foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge. The term may sometimes be used in a more general sense to refer to black magic or witchcraft.[1][2] - Wikipedia


So Moses was in paradise, right ?

Paradise was never mentioned in the old testament all the way to Jesus , why ? Because no one went to paradise, they died and they remained dead till the resurrection.

"And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said." - Deuteronomy 34:5

Where does it say here that Moses went to Paradise, none, and you know why, because there is no such thing, lol.


Besides, why was SATAN contending for the body of Moses and not his SOUL ? Surely SATAN would not have cared , since Moses was in Paradise right ?


"But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, "The Lord rebuke you!" (This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses' body.)" - Jude 1:9

Why also when Lazarus was raised from the dead did he not tell us stories about what the world yonder looked like ? Even his sisters knew he was dead and that Jesus will raise him on the last day and our Lord used the word 'sleep' here, so how can he be sleeping while is soul is on paradise

"and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." - Ecclesiastes 12:7

Once the spirit ( breath of GOD ) goes out of a man he becomes not a living soul but a dead body , period.

Stop confusing yourself , brother

Good day !!

I'm still clapping my hands ....good answers

frosbel:
So visions are now necromancy , lol.

^
Dear me. And there I was thinking you had a better grasp of English. Classic cognitive dissonance. The Transfiguration was not a vision. And stop misquoting me. . .where did I say visions are necromancy. Engage your mind and reason: God forbids communication with the dead therefore you will not have visions of dead people because God will not transgress his own commands!

aletheia: ^
The Transfiguration was a vision? Visions of dead men? Really? Is that consistent with God who forbids necromancy and the like? Something that was reported as an event. . .For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 2Pe 1:16-18

frosbel:
So Moses was in paradise, right ?

Paradise was never mentioned in the old testament all the way to Jesus , why ? Because no one went to paradise, they died and they remained dead till the resurrection.

^
On such selective amnesia of the Bible are cults born and flounder:
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luk 23:43)
Paradise was were Lazarus & Abraham were in hades.

frosbel:
"And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said." - Deuteronomy 34:5

Where does it say here that Moses went to Paradise, none, and you know why, because there is no such thing, lol.

^
lol as much as you like, it doesn't change what is written:
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luk 23:43)
Note that "Today" refers to the present not some indeterminate future time. If I must choose between frosbel and Jesus' words: the choice is clear. Jesus trumps frosbel!
And Paul does mention paradise:
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2Co 12:4)

The signs are clear: you are some way gone in reconstructing the Bible to suit your wish-fulfillment theology. All too often such as you end up claiming Paul forged the scriptures. Seen it happen over and over again.

frosbel:
Besides, why was SATAN contending for the body of Moses and not his SOUL ? Surely SATAN would not have cared , since Moses was in Paradise right ?

^
Go and ask Satan what he wanted to do with Moses' body. However, you willfuly ignore that Jesus Himself distinguishes between Soul & Body. Shame on you:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell(geenna).
(Mat 10:28. This verse is clear:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: Thus according to Jesus, men are able to kill the body but are unable to kill the soul. Doesn't elementary English comprehension show you that the soul is thus different from the body?

frosbel:
"But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, "The Lord rebuke you!" (This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses' body.)" - Jude 1:9

^
Moses' body not Moses' soul.

frosbel:
Why also when Lazarus was raised from the dead did he not tell us stories about what the world yonder looked like ? Even his sisters knew he was dead and that Jesus will raise him on the last day and our Lord used the word 'sleep' here, so how can he be sleeping while is soul is on paradise

^
Not all that occurred is recorded in the Bible. . .not even for Jesus. So how do you know "he not tell us stories about what the world yonder looked like". His sisters were expressing their and our belief which is stated succinctly as follows: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. (Act 24:15)
Won't be surprised if you become a Sadducee who were "sad, you see".

frosbel:
"and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." - Ecclesiastes 12:7

^
. Juxtapose this:
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?(Ecc 3:21)
. . .and it is apparent you wrench that verse out of context.

And the soul? For Man is Body, Soul & Spirit. . .as testified by scriptures:
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12)

frosbel:
Stop confusing yourself , brother

^
And what makes you think you are not the one confusing himself?

I thought Jesus told a thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise! If that was true, what would had been the fate of the other thief? On the earth/grave still sleeping? For if there exist paradise since then, one can not rule out the existence of hell. This supports the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

More clarification please.

[quote][quote author=aletheia]
^
Dear me. And there I was thinking you had a better grasp of English.

Haha insults now aye !

See what happens when Ego is put before logic !!

Classic cognitive dissonance. The Transfiguration was not a vision. And stop misquoting me. . .where did I say visions are necromancy. Engage your mind and reason: God forbids communication with the dead therefore you will not have visions of dead people because God will not transgress his own commands!

Or did I misquote you ? awww , forgive me then !!

^
On such selective amnesia of the Bible are cults born and flounder:

Yes , like Calvinist and Catholic churches.

I am providing multiple scriptures from all over the bible to support my point , while you are holding on to ONE verse , almost as if it is your last hope for continued existence on this topic .

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luk 23:43)
Paradise was were Lazarus & Abraham were in hades.

Wrong again, let my brother help you here, now read and read carefully

However, the phrase in verse 43, “I tell you the truth today,” was a common Hebrew idiom used to emphasize the solemnity and importance of an occasion or moment (compare Deut. 4:26, 39, 40; 5:1; 6:6; 7:11, Josh. 23:14).

Recognizing this idiom and properly punctuating the verse with the comma after the word “today,” we see that Jesus’ meaning is clearly future, to be fulfilled when he comes again and establishes his kingdom on earth.

We must keep in mind that any punctuation in our translations were added by the translators and not in the Greek. It is up to the translator’s discretion when to add a comma or take one away.

Thus the verse should read as follows:

“Jesus answered him, ‘I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise.’”

Also, the word “paradise” is preceded by the article “the” and therefore refers biblically to the place of beauty on earth described in Genesis 2, lost in Genesis 3, that will be restored by the Lord Jesus Christ when he returns to earth (see Rev. 22:1-3). For more information on “paradise,” see the note on Ecclesiastes 2:5, page 908; and Appendix 173 in The Companion Bible, edited by E.W. Bullinger.

Not only did the penitent malefactor not go to “paradise” that day, neither did Jesus Christ. As stated earlier, he died and spent the next three days and three nights in the grave.

lol as much as you like, it doesn't change what is written:
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luk 23:43)
Note that "Today" refers to the present not some indeterminate future time. If I must choose between frosbel and Jesus' words: the choice is clear. Jesus trumps frosbel!
And Paul does mention paradise:
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2Co 12:4)

Ah okay , so you believe that Paradise was exported from Hades to Heaven , lol .

He did not say he was 'caught up ' down to paradise but up to paradise , this was a vision, simples.

Oh by the way , he was not yet dead you know .

The signs are clear: you are some way gone in reconstructing the Bible to suit your wish-fulfillment theology. All too often such as you end up claiming Paul forged the scriptures. Seen it happen over and over again.

Paul is one of my role models, he never preached about your false HELL and false Paradise , he preached on repentance , holiness and judgement.

Tell me why did the apostles never preach on this most urgent and important matter, wow !!

Besides, you have only 1 life line, no more, a verse in Luke 16, taken out of context, if that pillar falls which it has in my opinion, the whole house of sand regarding the framework of your arguments will collapse.

^
Go and ask Satan what he wanted to do with Moses' body. However, you willfuly ignore that Jesus Himself distinguishes between Soul & Body. Shame on you:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell(geenna).
(Mat 10:28. This verse is clear:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: Thus according to Jesus, men are able to kill the body but are unable to kill the soul. Doesn't elementary English comprehension show you that the soul is thus different from the body?

Man is a living SOUL , right. What made him a living soul, not because he had a soul to begin with but because God breathed life into him. The soul is his consciousness . When he dies, the breath goes back to God as King Solomon ( who by the way trounces you in wisdom X 1000 ) described in the book of Ecclesiastes.

"the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and b[b]reathed into his nostrils the breath of life[/b], and the man became a living being." - Genesis 2:7

English Revised Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ezekiel 37:5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life.

^
Moses' body not Moses' soul.

Aha, so SATAN was fighting over a dead body, wonderful logic.

^
Not all that occurred is recorded in the Bible. . .not even for Jesus. So how do you know "he not tell us stories about what the world yonder looked like". His sisters were expressing their and our belief which is stated succinctly as follows: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. (Act 24:15)
Won't be surprised if you become a Sadducee who were "sad, you see".

but everything that God wants us to know is recorded in the bible - Fact.

Jesus used the word sleep , sleep means sleep until a wake up time, which is at the resurrection.

The Pagan Greeks and Plato will be proud of you.

^
. Juxtapose this:
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?(Ecc 3:21)
. . .and it is apparent you wrench that verse out of context.

And the soul? For Man is Body, Soul & Spirit. . .as testified by scriptures:
[i]For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12)

Uhmm, the word is breath , according to strongs it is written[size=13pt] רוּחַ[/size] for Hebrew pronounced ruwach and means breath.

[img]http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/image.cfm?_01F343B6083F1B0219A2D8CBDD42F70E0CC87CB4A7882FCA4B0F79CC40AA95C9B7B69D66391FD443FF57DAA382E89ADCD686D5647AC8ECF8B18D16AB96ED5C64C[/img]

By the way , man is not a spirit.

"King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire" - Hebrew 1:7



Leave Ego behind and you will understand.

New International Version (©1984)
"At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children." - Matthew 11:25

frosbel:

As clear as the blue skies, you are getting yourself all tangled up, I have done my research and very well aware of the context in which I use the correct meaning of Hell.

Man without the breath is dead, with the breath is a Soul , after the resurrection of the damned he will be consciously thrown into HELL for final punishment and destruction.

Destruction [/b]means exactly what it says.

To start twisting destruction to mean everlating torment is being deceptive. Destruction means to bring to ruin, waste etc.

""And they will go out and look upon the [b]dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." - Isaiah 66:24

I bet in your mind, this verse also means everlasting torment, this is the end of the wicked destruction, not hard to understand.


You fail to read the meaning into these simple scripture because you are so glued to tradition, logic has now gone out of the window.


Note here :

1. and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Surely yo do not think that for eternity , Our Lord and his angels will be watching these unfortunate souls in torment forever and ever. How weak can your arguments get.

Forever in the bible hardly means for trillions of zillions of years, it means till the purpose has been accomplised , which in this case means death.

"17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
......
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more. ’”


Read again, Satan shall be no more , I hope you know that ashes and no more means just that , now try twisting this one.


2. have no rest day nor night - At the end of the age, there will be no more night or day, so how do you figure out that this means forever when it will either be 'outer darkness' for arguement sake or the new heaven and earth where the lamb will be the light ?

"There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever." - Revelation 22:5


So back to your point, this is simply the punishment of sinners and Satan that will last till they are totally destroyed.

Wrong, Hades means the grave


What is the rich man's name you cannot answer, what is the benefit of people watching others burn and in torment , I am still waiting for your answers, why are the demons not yet in torment you have gone blank on this one. This story is simply used as an allegory , period.


Not confused, I thoroughly understand the meaning, hades is hades , if the KJV Scholars decided to translate it into hell, it does not negate the true Greek meaning.

and who are these spirits, tell me please.

Besides, where does it mention here that they were in torment, you seem to be going off a tangent quoting the same arguments used by eternal torment supporters to argue a case that will not stand up in the court of Law.


The catholics actually had a lot in common with Calvin, both used torture and tyranny to silence their enemies.

Jesus never said that , Hades is the grave. I have compared scripture with scripture and tried to help you, but you insist on taking one verse in the bible out of context to form a false doctrine, there is no other scripture from


Genesis to Revelation to backup your theology.

It was not preached by Paul, Peter, any of the apostles for that matter. Surely such an important topic should have been covered in more gruesome detail in the acts of the apostles and other letters to the churches.

Again, Jesus tasted DEATH for man so that we will not have to DIE, he did not taste HELL for us , he tasted DEATH .

It was a vision


"And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead." - Matthew 17:9


In summary , the idea that God will torment sinners forever and ever is not scriptural.

Well written!

*Thumbs up

Lol Christians are d most confused people in d world.
But u guys can stil do urselves a favour by stop fooling urselves here.

@ frosbel: Those qyotes by John Wesley don't explicitly mention disbelief in the existence of souls. I always thought (and still think) that the Wesley brothers and Tyndale believed in souls.