plaetton:

I don't know about you, but I stop at stop signs and red lights because common sense tells me to do so, even at 2am in the morning where there are no authorities to catch me.
In democratic societies, people delegate authority to others to make good laws on their behalf. laws that benefit and accommodate all.
So the law man or police can only exercise delegated(my) authority ,not his own. So he represents the collective morality of the citizens.
The authority he wields is not derives from him, but from we, the citizens.

Get my drift?

Nice.. too many readers get caught in the trap of UN-CLARITY and cleverly woven web of pseudo-truths Christians often use on their folks to buttress an argument.

Mr_Anony:



Oh my God! This is so funny! It's happening all over again!

Mymyers45 asks if morality is truly possible without an authoritative force,
Zodiac creates a strawman by deciding that he knows what mkmyers45 is asking better than that mkmyers45 himself.
From then on, everyone throws in their biases and the real question is ignored.

Una too much! obfuscation-a-plenty!

@mkmyers45. My answer is that: There cannot be a morality without an authoritative source.

You accuse me of creating a strawman.
Please, tell me what is meant by "An Authoritative Source".
A little honesty is required from theists.
Mymyers is the one who tried to create a strawman, and he got called out.
If you do not understand his question, bully to you, sir,

Zodiac61:

You accuse me of creating a strawman.
Please, tell me what is meant by "An Authoritative Source".
A little honesty is required from theists.
Mymyers is the one who tried to create a strawman, and he got called out.
If you do not understand his question, bully to you, sir,

Get used to that, bro, or you will always feel offended by religionists.
They will do anything to defend their god, even dishonesy and unwarranted insults.
You need to understand them, their religion is their whole life, if you successfully expose the falsity of their religion, its like you're eroding the foundation of their life. So they will launch attacks against you.
Cheers, man.

mkmyers45:

I knew this where you would come to....

............And yes now it has come.

mkmyers45:
For one to punish evil and reward good....Yes, one has to possess power to do so and in a way we can liken this to a parent who can punish or reward his child....

mkmyers45:
It's possible to find a parent with omni-knowledge on a singular subject especially when correcting the child on such subject e.g A doctor correcting his daughter on the dangers of immorality.

mkmyers45:
AS young and naive as a child's mind is...it is possible for his parents to see right through him and judge their child in a very fair manner and truly missing no evidence.

mkmyers45:
Yes, there are strict people who never waver from their stands due to their state of mind....so they possess unclouded judgement

Lol, all the instances you gave, none of them fits the bill as well as God.

guyz it is monday morning - quit it and let's head for work already

Reyginus: Quick to fish out the errors(maybe to humiliate), but slow to recommend a solution-THE HEART OF MAN

Ok let me help you,

Reyginus: I dont believe that an authority is overlying morality,but spirituality.

First you start out by stating your belief but you don't attempt to define this belief properly

Reyginus: To say that morality is linked to the existence of a godhead is illogical and cannot be proven, and that which cannot be proven is a fallacy.

You have defined fallacy wrongly, besides, morality can actually be logically linked to a "godhead"

Reyginus: morality does exist in the abscence of a godhead.

You make another unfounded claim.

Reyginus: Though the presence of an authority may induce morality in some cases,it ll be a fallacy to make it the only determinant of morality.

Again you use the word fallacy very loosely.

Reyginus: The presence of atheists proves it to be a fallacy (except you are telling me that atheists believe subconsciously in God).

Now this is a fallacy (a real fallacy not as you used it though) The presence of a person who doesn't believe in a law does not invalidate the said law.

Reyginus: Since atheists dnt believe in anything,it wont be bad labelling them all immoral (from your own words).

Honestly, I don't quite get how this last statement follows from the rest. I guess it is a follow up to the previous sentence. If that is the case my above reply should suffice

Mr_Anony:
............And yes now it has come.
Lol, all the instances you gave, none of them fits the bill as well as God.

funny, is the thread about the perceived attributes of (Christian) God or about morality requiring a divine authoritative source.

What of those communities who successfully ruled themselves morally without any knowledge of God as the authoritative source of morality?

Mr_Anony:
Now this is a fallacy (a real fallacy not as you used it though) The presence of a person who doesn't believe in a law does not invalidate the said law.

let me graciously expose this fallacy you normally spout everywhere while thinking you are making sense.
If (for instance) as a nigerian, i disbelieved the nigerian law, then you are making sense, there are no two conflicting nigerian law, so it is clear to every nigerian.
But if as a rational human being, i disbelieved the laws of one religion's God among thousands of other Gods, how am i judged as an offender. The truth is that you are disbelieving the Almighty Allah's law, just like me, and he might be the true God.
I know you will scream that this is not god existence debate but your presuppositions about the the existence of christian God will make you think you are making sense while in reality you are only making sense to the christians, not to every rational human being.

Mr_Anony:
............And yes now it has come.







Lol, all the instances you gave, none of them fits the bill as well as (your)God.

Well Well Well, It suits my God then if that is what you want to know and i am happy with how moral my own God is...

Apologies,I dont mean to undermine ur intellectual prowess.Bt I wonder y what took mkmyers sm mins to answer took u dis long.could it have bn that u were consulting ur philosophy textbook or u've bn thinkn.It's of less meaning to me nw.

mkmyers45:

Well Well Well, It suits my God then if that is what you want to know and i am happy with how moral my own God is...

So I ask you to please define this "your own God" and tell me exactly how well he/she/it satisfies the criteria we have laid out

Reyginus: I wonder y what took mkmyers sm mins to answer took u dis long.could it have bn that u were consulting ur philosophy textbook or u've bn thinkn.It's of less meaning to me nw.

lol, had to go to church, came home slept, woke up and put you to rest.
I really don't need philosophical textbooks to show how your claims fail.

Mr_Anony:

So I ask you to please define this "your own God" and tell me exactly how well he/she/it satisfies the criteria we have laid out

Let us make some points clear: God = Source of Morality? Agree or Not?

mkmyers45:

Let us make some points clear: God = Source of Morality? Agree or Not?

I Agree, small adjustment for clarity: God's nature is the basis of morality

Mr_Anony:

I Agree, small adjustment for clarity: God's nature is the basis of morality

The same God that committed genocide by flooding the whole earth?

The same God that committed suicide in the form of Jesus rather than instantly forgive people's sins?

MacDaddy01:

The same God that committed genocide by flooding the whole earth?

The same God that committed suicide in the form of Jesus rather than instantly forgive people's sins?

Get thee behind me. Thou troll!

Mr_Anony:
Get thee behind me. Thou troll!

The truth = trolling?


You christians got no morality.

MacDaddy01:

The truth = trolling?


You christians got no morality.

Now don't be soo harsh on Christians, there are quite a few with a sense of tolerance, understanding and intelligence. My favorite Christian figure is actually Jesus Christ able to differentiate between Self-serving Dogma and Relevant Divine Instruction (since the times of Moses), Embracing sinners and discerning Scriptural error from Scriptural Truth. I wish we had more Christlike folks on Nairaland

lagerwhenindoubt:

Now don't be soo harsh on Christians, there are quite a few with a sense of tolerance, understanding and intelligence. My favorite Christian figure is actually Jesus Christ able to differentiate between Self-serving Dogma and Relevant Divine Instruction (since the times of Moses), Embracing sinners and discerning Scriptural error from Scriptural Truth. I wish we had more Christlike folks on Nairaland

lol.

Mr_Anony:

I Agree, small adjustment for clarity: God's nature is the basis of morality

I insist God = source of morality Agree or not?

mkmyers45:

I insist God = source of morality Agree or not?

God=Immorality+Morality (that is more like it than not) so how do we flip this coin. and please do not bring Satan into this because God existed before him

mkmyers45:

I insist God = source of morality Agree or not?

Now I smell a trick question waiting on the wings.

I have already answered your question I affirm that God is the source of morality. To clarify and avoid strawmen, I will say this again: The nature/essence of God is goodness. It is from the standard of God's goodness that we can identify what is good and what is not good (evil).
And by the nature of God, I refer to God as portrayed by the bible and through the life of Christ.

I have already agreed, I don't know what else you want from me.

lagerwhenindoubt:
God=Immorality+Morality (that is more like it than not) so how do we flip this coin. and please do not bring Satan into this because God existed before him

I'm not taking this up yet with mr Anony.....were are still assuming that God 'Gawd' is all goodly and moral

Mr_Anony:
Now I smell a trick question waiting on the wings.

I have already answered your question I affirm that God is the source of morality. To clarify and avoid strawmen, I will say this again: The nature/essence of God is goodness. It is from the standard of God's goodness that we can identify what is good and what is not good (evil).
And by the nature of God, I refer to God as portrayed by the bible and through the life of Christ.

I have already agreed, I don't know what else you want from me.

Ok, From the standard of a 'Judge' we can deduce goodness and evil right? Now, the nature of this judge is by his life portrayal as we can physically see...agree?

mkmyers45:

Ok, From the standard of a 'Judge' we can deduce goodness and evil right? Now, the nature of this judge is by his life portrayal as we can physically see...agree?

I take difference to the word "physically". I'll assume you don't mean it in a strict sense (I say this so that the debate doesn't drift towards "Can you prove God physically?" )
Otherwise, I agree

Adultery and fornication is prohibited, but in the same bible God order Judah's son to sleep with his dead brother's wife and of which he came on the ground.

Mr_Anony:
I take difference to the word "physically". I'll assume you don't mean it in a strict sense (I say this so that the debate doesn't drift towards "Can you prove God physically?" )
Otherwise, I agree

No one is going there....i'm still trying to show that source is not equal to a supernatural being...

mkmyers45:

No one is going there....i'm still trying to show that source is not equal to a supernatural being...

Fair enough, let's carry on then. But note while we continue, that you are yet to provide a good judge that fits the criteria we set.

Ok now likes see how a parent can be a judge

Mr_Anony:
Fair enough, let's carry on then. But note while we continue, that you are yet to provide a good judge that fits the criteria we set.

A Parent Scolding a Child for Stealing fits the criteria.....

I'll quote myself from another thread. This is what I said:

".........I will go on to say that for anything to be a true standard for morality
1. It must be all-powerful or at least more powerful than the child i.e. must be powerful enough to punish evil and reward good.

2. It must be omniscient i.e. must be able to properly know and understand everything and every motive

Yes the parent has omni-knowledge on the stealing subject and has all set-knowledge to admonish the child with...

3. It must be all-seeing i.e. must be able to see a case from every possible angle. No evidence should escape it.

The parent has the ability to see all through the child's actions as regards to the theft...and miss no evidence.

6. It must not waver and must not change with the wind i.e. what was once evil will not suddenly become good and vice versa(note this is different from it's permissiveness)

Yes, there are strict parents who never waver from their stands due to their state of mind....so they possess unclouded judgement

Hereby we can see that to a young child, his parents can be a 'God-Source' of Morality

mkmyers45:

Ok, From the standard of a 'Judge' we can deduce goodness and evil right? Now, the nature of this judge is by his life portrayal as we can physically see...agree?

A Judge merely interprets and enforces the Rules not create them.

Kay 17:

A Judge merely interprets and enforces the Rules not create them.

we are referring to a judge that creates and enforces law

Kay 17: Adultery and fornication is prohibited, but in the same bible God order Judah's son to sleep with his dead brother's wife and of which he came on the ground.

The story you are referring to is in Genesis 38:6-10, It is about Judah's first son Er, his wife Tamah and Judah's second son Onan.

Kay 17, a few things are wrong with your allegation:
1. If a husband is dead, it is not adultery if she sleeps with someone else. It is also not fornication considering that the younger brother actually married his brother's wife.
2. God did not order Onan to sleep with Tamah, it was Judah who urged Onan to marry her so that Onan can sir children for Er.
3. Onan, spilled his seed on the ground out of wickedness because he didn't want his brother's lineage to continue. This made God angry and God killed him.

Nothing in this story contradicts God's nature