72 Virgins In Paradise? - Religion - Nairaland
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Does The Koran Really Promise Islamic Martyrs 72 Virgins? / 70 Virgins In Paradise / 72 Virgins In Paradise Or Hell For Suicide Bombers ? (2) (3) (4)
| 72 Virgins In Paradise? by Nobody: 1:25am On Jul 24, 2012 |
If you ask a random person what they know about Islam, you will get some random responses. People generally know that Muslims worship Allah, but don’t know much else. Plenty of people will venture incorrect guesses, like ‘Islam is an Arab religion” or “Islam is only about Jihad” along with the mistaken idea that the word means Holy war. One of the more popular ideas that is now spreading is that “Terrorists are promised 72 virgin women when they die.” The “72 virgins” idea is probably the most overblown idea that people seem to remember about Islam. It’s turning into a real stereotype. Forget the doctrines of monotheism and tolerance, it seems all people want to hear about is the virgins. There’s a lot more to Paradise than just sex and physical pleasure, you know. Before I go describing them in detail, I want to note that I’m taking the issue and the verses out of context. One really should read the whole Surah (chapter) to get a better understanding of the religious signifigance. Nearly a third of the Qur’an talks about the life after this one, so while there are chapters and chapters to describe the hereafter, I’m just discussing a few verses which talk about the servants; a minor perk in the grand scheme of Paradise. Personally I think the greatest reward is to be in the presence of God Almighty. Plenty of non-Muslims take one of these single verses and generalize that all of heaven is lascivious, but that simply isn’t the case. I’m just focusing on the virgins, since that’s what you came here to read. To start off, you need to understand what the rewards in Jannah (Paradise) are. The Quran says that those who do get into Paradise will be rewarded with blessings that eclipse anything on earth; unlimited food of your choice, riches, and wishes come true. Things considered sinful on Earth such as wine will be allowed, and people will be able to eat and drink all they want and not get full or hungover or sick. People will be reunited with their friends and relatives, we will all be made young again, and there will be no anger or pain. Everyone will be given palaces to live in, and clothing fit for royalty, with luxurious couches and thrones for everyone. There will be rivers of the purest water, milk, wine, and honey, all of which are better than any you will find on earth. Those who get to the highest part of Paradise, Jannah al- Firdaus, will also be able to see Allah with their own eyes. So, in a sense, Heaven is a paradise filled with pleasures. You need to imagine the context of when this idea of Paradise was revealed to the people; of the extremely stark and difficult life of ancient Bedouin Arabia. Something as simple as the constant flow of water in a stream was considered miraculous, so it would be natural to imagine heaven depicted this way, flowing with streams of water under the shade of huge trees. (Well what did you expect Paradise to be? Clouds, wings, and harps?) Also, the believers who make it into Paradise, male and female, are promised beautiful companions, known as “Houris” in Arabic. The Quran describes them in some detail as such: “Serving [the believers] will be immortal youths with jeweled and crystal cups filled with the purest wine which will neither give them headache nor hangover, with fruits and meats of their desire. They will be fair ones with lovely intense eyes like guarded pearls; A reward for the good deeds of their past life.” (56:17-24) “We have created mates for them and made them virgins, matched in age, for the companions of the right hand.” (56:35-38) “They will be chaste, restraining their eyes in modesty, never touched by man or Jinn.”(55:56) “Serving them will be immortal servants. When you see them, they will look like scattered pearls.” (76:19). The Houris are basically creations of God, intelligent yet soulless and created to serve the believer who goes to Paradise. They are created for the purpose of serving the believer, and as such, they dont exactly have free will. They are described as pure, beautiful, lustrous, virgin, and more perfect than any human on earth. Imagine the woman of your dreams. Women aren’t left out: A man in paradise will get numerous female servants for himself, while a woman would get male servants. The Quran says that women shall be compensated just as well and says about the believers that “they” (the gender unspecified) shall have perfected mates/spouses as a reward of their deeds (2:25, 3:15, 4:57). So women will get the man of their dreams. Actually, even better than you could dream of. In Paradise, you can marry them. You can interpret the “mates” as being spouses. Even if you were married on earth, they will be invisible to your spouse. Islam is pretty clear in saying that guiltless sex is a reward in Paradise. Since they are more like spouses, they will probably be given the status of one instead of a servant. There is no direct evidence in the Qur’an to support there being 70 or 72 for each person. The numerical value of 70 is derived from a Quranic commentary by Quranic scholar Ibn Kathir. The number 72 comes from a hadith that says “‘The smallest reward [each] for the people of Heaven is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine and ruby, as wide as the distance from [Damascus] to [Yemen].’” Do Muslims believe it literally? Are they required to? This particular Hadith has technical weaknesses in its chain of transmitters and is therefore not considered 100% authenticly faultless, though it is listed in an authoritative collection. As a result, Muslims are not required to believe in it, though many inevitably do (but an even more respectable Hadith with virtually the same message can be found in a separate hadith collection). Most muslims believe that they will experience incredible physical pleasures when they enter heaven, and that you will be happier in heaven than you could possibly be in this life. Some say that the houris are a metaphor for the ineffable joys of the afterlife. “Ineffable” is the perfect word to describe it, since Allah promises rewards beyond imagination, meaning you can’t even guess what reward lies ahead since there is no equal on Earth. Ergo, if you can imagine the greatest, richest, best thing in this life, then what will actually be there will be even better. So, to answer the question “Do terrorists get 72 virgins in Paradise?” Anyone who gets into Heaven will get the servants, it’s not specific to martyrs or the shaheeds. The more important question is, who is privileged to enter heaven according to Islam? That’s a topic for another node.(Hint: Islam is unambiguous on the issue of suicide and hurting innocent people; they’re Completely sinful) In case it’s not clear to anyone, Terrorists who hurt innocent people are sinning, so it’s up to Allah if they’ll go to Paradise or not. You see, bad deeds aren’t rewarded, only punished. Sources: 2 Likes |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by cyrexx: 1:59am On Jul 24, 2012 |
wao, i must admit sincerely that Islamic paradise is the most exquisite paradise among other religions. even the Christian paradise guarantees no beautiful virgins to rock in the second life, you will just be singing and praising. what a dulling paradise. i will convert to Islam if Allah in his infinite mercy can let me have just one, may be two of the promised 72 heavenly virgins on earth now (and somehow hide them from my wife  ), thus i will see my eternal reward for myself so that i can be sure that those pure, beautiful, lustrous, sexy virgins are not just imaginary carrot to make me blow myself for nothing in the cause of Islam.i swear, i go convert fast fast if Allah can do this little thing for me. allahu akbar in advance. 3 Likes |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by saddler: 2:46am On Jul 24, 2012 |
Seconded. Me too want Allah to just give me one of d 72 virgins to test-run here on earth.I swear I will convert to Islam sharperly but tell him I will not blow myself oooo.I love my life. 1 Like |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by saddler: 2:46am On Jul 24, 2012 |
Seconded. Me too want Allah to just give me one of d 72 virgins to test-run here on earth.I swear I will convert to Islam sharperly but tell him I will not blow-up myself oooo.I love my life. |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by Nobody: 4:27am On Jul 24, 2012 |
u guys re close to perishing if u think u can say ill about others religion just the way u re rubishing ur christianity on this thread. muslims will never say ill of christianity. i doubt if u are even christians. |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by Dipwater(m): 4:39am On Jul 24, 2012 |
ajobes: u guys re close to perishing if u think u can say ill about others religion just the way u re rubishing ur christianity on this thread. So anyone that sPeaks ill of ur miserable religion is a christian. Friend we have so many atheists and agnostics in the religion section Pls give ma word to ur homeboy allah ,tell him I want my virgins here on earth 1 Like |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by Nobody: 4:54am On Jul 24, 2012 |
Dipwater:friend my ass. wat do u know about religion? since u dont have or believe in any, dnt think ur fit to watse a word about it with u. |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by Nobody: 5:08am On Jul 24, 2012 |
saddler: Seconded.I doubt if you read the article,but you are so quick to make mockery of it.According to the Holy Quran,any body that commit suicide,shall have Hell fire as his or her reward.There is no where in the Quran where 72 virgins was stated.Yes,i dout if you are even a Christain from your response..You probably never believed in anything called Heaven. |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by PhysicsQED(m): 5:17am On Jul 24, 2012 |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by cyrexx: 7:14am On Jul 24, 2012 |
ajobes: u guys re close to perishing if u think u can say ill about others religion just the way u re rubishing ur christianity on this thread. i will speak ill of any bloody religion and nothing can happaen because those gods, including allah,are nothing but imaginations of ancient men. they are imaginary. they cant do anything for themselves unless they use some slaves who have lost their brain to their religion so as to believe that there is paradise of babes waiting for them in their second life. THERE IS NO GOD, NO DEVIL, NO HEAVEN, NO HELL, NO LIFE BEFORE BIRTH AND THUS NO LIFE AFTER DEATH, but the only thing that exists are religions who think god exists because they falsely believe that this world was created by allah. But obviously such an imaginary god cant do anything for himself unless he use his religiously brainwashed slaves
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| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by cyrexx: 7:33am On Jul 24, 2012 |
akthedream: I doubt if you read the article,but you are so quick to make mockery of it.According to the Holy Quran,any body that commit suicide,shall have Hell fire as his or her reward.There is no where in the Quran where 72 virgins was stated.Yes,i dout if you are even a Christain from your response..You probably never believed in anything called Heaven. i read the article very well, i even have a copy of the quran. yes. and my reply to you articles is still: cyrexx:  |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by Delafruita(m): 8:27am On Jul 24, 2012 |
ajobes: u guys re close to perishing if u think u can say ill about others religion just the way u re rubishing ur christianity on this thread.this isnt a war of muslim or christian.some people just know that all religion is bullcrap |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by Delafruita(m): 8:32am On Jul 24, 2012 |
akthedream: I doubt if you read the article,but you are so quick to make mockery of it.According to the Holy Quran,any body that commit suicide,shall have Hell fire as his or her reward.There is no where in the Quran where 72 virgins was stated.Yes,i dout if you are even a Christain from your response..You probably never believed in anything called Heaven.is the quran the only book muslims believe in?doesnt the hadith of muhammad occcupy such exalted position?doesnt one hadith mention the everlasting erection in paradise guaranteed warriors?doesnt it describe the virgins in details to the point of describing their Brea/sts?although i know the hadith that states that isnt a strong one and the prominence of 72virgins in the western media was began as a propaganda to ridicule the palestine movement.all the same,islamic heaven sounds tintillating |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by Delafruita(m): 8:34am On Jul 24, 2012 |
ajobes:its amazing the discrepancies you see when you look at things dispassionately.that probably explains why irreligious people know more about religion than religious people |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by wiegraf: 8:36am On Jul 24, 2012 |
All this is all nice and good, the amount of detail is particularly impressive. Like others I need a sample before I commit. Lest we be accused of being sexist, I won't support sexist gods, I want to hear more about the options for females. Tbh I'm just worried about my future daughters, as I may need to sell this to them to ensure my own ticket is secure. I'd like it to be attractive as I'd rather not brainwash/force them. My gay friends and family as well, can they finally get some of their preffered action after living a lie their entire lives, or will they be cured from 'teh gay'? Pls pls can I get a (lifelong) sample pls? Edit: jokes aside op you come across as a decent guy, the reward you want (simply being in its presence) is noble enough for me. If you step out of the bubble though you'd probably notice it sounds like something some 419er would tell you, even without the number 72, and not a good one by modern standards. This 419er would have been cutting edge stuff maybe 1000-1500 yrs ago (look at the well thought out details, it was ahead of its time!). Ppl would still fall for it today, so imagine how tempting it would have been then (also consider his early followers were mostly outcats, ppl without much of a future being junior family members, basically very dissatisfied with their lives and projected destinies). And ppl get stoned to death because of hadiths, it's pretty serious. Moh himself may not have been disingenuous, he may actually have believed his stuff and possibly (very debatabble) helped out a bit, but don't you think its time we moved on? |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by Nobody: 10:32am On Jul 24, 2012 |
wiegraf: All this is all nice and good, the amount of detail is particularly impressive. Like others I need a sample before I commit. Lest we be accused of being sexist, I won't support sexist gods, I want to hear more about the options for females. Tbh I'm just worried about my future daughters, as I may need to sell this to them to ensure my own ticket is secure. I'd like it to be attractive as I'd rather not brainwash/force them. My gay friends and family as well, can they finally get some of their preffered action after living a lie their entire lives, or will they be cured from 'teh gay'? Pls pls can I get a (lifelong) sample pls?The problem with you atheist and non believer of religion,is that you read too much of history books writting by people who have a biased mind towards God religion.Have you ever with all manners of sincerity and fairness study the Quran and The bible to really know if there is God or not to start with? |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by cyrexx: 11:24am On Jul 24, 2012 |
akthedream: The problem with you atheist and non believer of religion,is that you read too much of history books writting by people who have a biased mind towards God religion.Have you ever with all manners of sincerity and fairness study the Quran and The bible to really know if there is God or not to start with? the problem with you muslims (as well as christians) is that you suspend your brain when you are reading your holy books. what you dont know is that many atheists know the Bible and Quran more than your imams and your pastors. they discovered the truth when they started using their brain which you guys will never do, for fear of hell fire. see these sites below and see why many people like you are renonucing religions http://www.apostatesofislam.com/ http://ex-muslim.org.uk/ http://www.faithfreedom.o |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by wiegraf: 12:38pm On Jul 24, 2012 |
akthedream: The problem with you atheist and non believer of religion,is that you read too much of history books writting by people who have a biased mind towards God religion.Have you ever with all manners of sincerity and fairness study the Quran and The bible to really know if there is God or not to start with? What does that have to do with anything? Are you also implying you have a problem with critisism from the outside? Where do I quote an external ref? How do you know I've not read those books? Why is the sky blue? What does that have to do with anything? |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by Nobody: 7:29pm On Jul 24, 2012 |
cyrexx:What do stand to gain as an atheist if i may ask?Why are you guys all every thread doing all you can to go against religion and God?..Afterall,those who believe in God and religion have nothing to loose after death according to you. |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by Nobody: 7:30pm On Jul 24, 2012 |
cyrexx: |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by cyrexx: 7:42pm On Jul 24, 2012 |
akthedream: What do stand to gain as an atheist if i may ask?Why are you guys all every thread doing all you can to go against religion and God?..Afterall,those who believe in God and religion have nothing to loose after death according to you. your thinking is like this: “God can’t be proved. But if God exists, the believer gains everything (goes to heaven) and the unbeliever loses everything (goes to hell). If God doesn’t exist, the believer loses nothing and the unbeliever gains nothing. There is therefore everything to gain and nothing to lose by believing in God.” This argument for belief in God’s existence is called Pascal’s Wager, named for Blaise Pascal who conceived it. The argument can also be expressed like this: Either there is a god or there isn’t. If you believe in God, and God exists, then you win big time and go to Heaven for all eternity. If you don’t believe in God, and God exists, you lose big time and go to Hell for all eternity. If there is no god, then you haven’t lost much by believing. So the obvious choice is to believe in God, because it’s simply the best bet. Pascal’s Wager has several faults. 1. The biggest problem is that it’s not a proof of any god’s existence; it’s just an argument for believing, not a proof of existence.It is purely a method of extorting the gullible thru fear. . nothing more than a scare tactics any religion can use to generate followers. 2. Like many other such arguments, it also fails to denote exactly which god it refers to. Pascal’s Wager could be applied to any god that offers rewards and punishments. Taken to the extreme, following the wager would necessitate betting on the god with the worst hell, so it could be avoided. It's impossible to know which god to worship, and which (perhaps jealous) gods to spurn. I doubt if many Christians would convert to Islam if the wager were presented by a Muslim who told them that Muslim Hell is worse than Christian Hell and[b] Muslim Heaven[/b] is better than Christian Heaven. 3. Pascal’s Wager assumes that the chosen god doesn't mind people believing in him for explicitly selfish reasons. But religionists are in much danger as the atheists. Who knows, perhaps he actually prefers independent thinkers such as atheists, not cowardly subordinate followers. It would be quite possible for a true believer to discover on Judgment Day that the destination was not Heaven. Allah, in his infinitely mysterious ways, may have had other plans; and there would be no appeal or debate with an omnipotent being. 4. Another problem with Pascal’s Wager is that it wrongly assumes that the bet is only for non-existence vs existence of Christian god. Since the odds of the Islamic, Christian, Jewish or Hindu god co-existing as Almighty god are zero, the wager creates a false dilemma. 5. The wager even goes against the doctrine that many religions have where gambling is sinful. Note also that the existence of the wager (gambling) and the fact that so many people think that it's relevant to deliberate on the lack of actual evidence for God. 6. Pascal’s Wager also depends on the idea that you don’t lose much by believing. This has been false for many who have trusted in their god for help or guidance, instead of seeking reality-based solutions. People have unnecessarily fought, killed and died for their belief in their god. Boko haram problem in our country is an example of dangers of religion. Far too many have died because they (or their parents) chose prayer instead of medicine (e.g. Jehovah Witnesses will rather let their children die than allow blood transfusion ). Swords, bullets, poison, and poisonous snakes have killed many who thought that they were protected by their god etc etc etc. 7. Even without these more dramatic effects, believers often devote significant time, energy and money to worshipping their god. This could have been properly invested in worthwhile developmental pursuits both for the individual and for humanity as a whole. This probably explains why the least religious nations have been the most advanced nations on earth and vice versa. Nigeria, as deeply religious as we are is still one of the most corrupt nation on earth. 8. Beliefs in a god (and the often resultant ideas of divine punishment and reward) too often make people more willing to accept inequalities in this life, without trying to make things better for themselves. Low-paid factory workers and slaves were taught that their rewards were in the afterlife, so they should be meek and obedient in this life to ensure their (imaginary) rewards. Even the factory and slave owners could think that they were part of their god's divine plan, and thus deserved their earthly rewards. 9. God-belief has real expenses that can be large or destructive both to the individual and to the world e.g Islamic terrorism and boko haram, they sincerely believed they are doing god’s will by killing fellow human beings. 10. The last problem with Pascal’s Wager is that it completely ignores and even denigrates intellectual integrity and honesty; the wager assumes that people can believe something just because they want to. As an example, let’s talk about belief in Santa Claus. Don’t we have more respect for a child who figures out that Santa doesn’t exist, and says so, rather than continuing to lie so he can get more presents? It’s a sign of growing integrity and maturity for children to stop believing in Santa. Similarly, adults can give up belief in a god when they realize that there’s no real evidence for their god. Christians can quit being “sheep” or “children of god” and become intellectually honest. 11. The loss of intellectual integrity and honesty engendered by Pascal’s Wager gives some insight into how apparently rational people can behave so irrationally. By accepting the wager, they have (perhaps implicitly) given up these important traits. In conclusion, I think that many people continue to believe in a god because it gives them comfort, not because god actually exists; it’s an emotional response. It allows them to pray to their god and think that they’re actually accomplishing something. It gives them feelings of structure and meaning in their lives, and makes them feel connected. It helps remove the fear of death and nonexistence that most of us experience after death, just exactly what we experience before our birth. Belief in the Christian god helps remove people’s fear of Christian Hell that has been pounded into their minds from childhood. Belief in a god also makes the world more black and white, less confusing, and easier to deal with. Likewise belief in the Islamic god helps remove people’s fear of Islamic Hell that has been pounded into their minds from childhood. Belief in a god also makes the world more black and white, less confusing, and easier to deal with.But, is this any actual proof for the existence of a god? Is comfort a good indicator of the truth of external reality? I don’t think that it is, any more than the reality that astrology is not true simply because people find comfort in it. The universe does not owe us comfort and meaning; we create them ourselves through our various religions. “The fact that a believer believes he is happier than a skeptic/atheists is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man believes is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.” Religions are like feel-good addictive drug. I think that addicts will do or think almost anything to continue getting their fix. Some people eventually see that freedom from religious addiction is an intellectually and emotionally healthy change, although withdrawal can be painful. 2 Likes |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by Nobody: 11:23pm On Jul 24, 2012 |
@cyrexx-Are you telling ne there are no evil atheist??I guess that mean u are all evil minded too.If bokoharam is attacking the north a fraction of the country called Nigeria.Are you telling me the rest part of the country is free from religious people??Are they reading diff. Quran/bible?What do you stand to gain ranting??If v have decided on block ur mind from Anything relating to God,why jumping from one post to post wasting ur time posting unreasonable comments?Why not forget religion and go on with your evil act? |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by wiegraf: 11:37pm On Jul 24, 2012 |
akthedream: What do stand to gain as an atheist if i may ask?Why are you guys all every thread doing all you can to go against religion and God?..Afterall,those who believe in God and religion have nothing to loose after death according to you. It's not like you opened this thread with the intent of addressing the irreligious, christian et al The reply above was actually quite gracious. I just have to ask, is that your reason?  Existential crises imminent.. I'm going to go lie down Oh, benefit of the doubt here... Thank $deity... You mean why do we bother when there is no personal gain for us? Oh shit, no. That's not much better... Still getting to the crises level... So you opened this thread because you wanted to score points with god... shutting down.... |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by Nobody: 10:56am On Jul 25, 2012 |
wiegraf:I have nothing to gain from you on this thread since u never believed in life after death.No matter the comment i receive from religious people,i know it will be meaningful unlike u atheist and non believer of religion.You guys dont make sense to me just the same way i dont make sense to you. |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by Areaboy2(m): 11:24am On Jul 25, 2012 |
akthedream: I have nothing to gain from you on this thread since u never believed in life after death.No matter the comment i receive from religious people,i know it will be meaningful unlike u atheist and non believer of religion.You guys dont make sense to me just the same way i dont make sense to you. you seem to look at other religious people as allies. Same problem Cyrex pointed out about Pascal's wager. Problem is, if you are wrong and they are right, then u're pretty much fcked! But still you're willing to take the chance. Imagine a world with without critics. All we are doing is pointing out the obvious flaws in believing in a god. you can choose to think for yourself or think with your holy book. So much for freewill  |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by cyrexx: 12:21pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
akthedream: I have nothing to gain from you on this thread since u never [b]believed in life after death.[/b]No matter the comment i receive from religious people,i know it will be meaningful unlike u atheist and non believer of religion.You guys dont make sense to me just the same way i dont make sense to you.
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| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by Nobody: 12:37pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
*Observing* |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by cyrexx: 7:23pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
Reyginus: *Observing* observe and watch this:
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| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by Nobody: 7:26pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
Area_boy:Nope you are wrong..If am wrong and they are right.,then we(me and you)are both bleeped..You get it now? |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by dorox(m): 7:47pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
Islam is the most intolerant of all religion in this modern era, when they are the minority in a christian/secular country you here them talk about human rights but when you find yourself in a muslim country you dare not use the principle of human right to demand the freedom that they enjoy in non muslim countries. This obvious double standard is one of the main reasons why i detest the religion. 2 Likes |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by Cogent: 8:38pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
Keep quiet there. Christianity was also like that before. |
| Re: 72 Virgins In Paradise? by Ptolomeus(m): 10:13pm On Jul 25, 2012 |
Apparently, there is great demand for virgins in Islamic Paradise. To this is added each time fewer women die virgin ... Conclusion ... When he dies a virgin, goes to the Islamic paradise, not the Christian, nor hell. This occurs by the high demand for virgins. It is possible that in the Islamic paradise the virgins are castrated, dilapidated, and beaten, but at least they are better priced. |
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