^^^ Did you not see post #126 ---- or is this another attempt at sleight of hand?

@Gary:

I do see your point yet would NOT say the Mosaic law understanding comes from man made dictionaries.

NIV says in Deut 14:22 to "be sure to set aside a tenth of all your fields produce"! Verse 25 advises to convert that tithe to silver (cash).

Note this is a tenth of ALL your fields produce and not a tenth of what is in your pocket at any given time!

I believe this law has been superceded by the law of "love" in the NT however!

What is difference between voluntary giving and voluntary tithing, other than the tenth?

I can voluntarily give whatever I want to whoever I want.  I can give a loaf of bread to the church.

If tithing merely means giving a tenth, then I can tithe a loaf of bread and that would qualify as voluntary tithing.

Otherwise, please explain the difference between voluntary giving and voluntary tithing, and please back up your explanation with something other than man-made definitions.

Enigma:

^^^ Did you not see post #126 ---- or is this another attempt at sleight of hand?

Your excuses are your "answers"? Are you seriously at odds with understanding simple things? Did I ask you the question before of after #126? (see post #129) How did you ANSWER the question in post #130? You're still hiding behind excuses and celebrating your own sleight of hand, innit?

nuclearboy:

I do see your point yet would NOT say the Mosaic law understanding comes from man made dictionaries.

He won't ever get that! You can raise the stakes - he won't EVER get that.

NIV says in Deut 14:22 to "be sure to set aside a tenth of all your fields produce"

Says nothing about income.  Doesn't say the carpenter was to set aside a tenth of all their work or earnings.  Doesn't say the fishermen should set aside a tenth of the fish they caught.  It is specific - a tenth of the PRODUCE (FOOD) to be EATEN at the yearly feast.

wordtalk:

Your excuses are your "answers"? Are you seriously at odds with understanding simple things? Did I ask you the question before of after #126? (see post #129) How did you ANSWER the question in post #130? You're still hiding behind excuses and celebrating your own sleight of hand, innit?

As I said before, the sleight of hand was tried as pilgrim.1, as viaro and now as wordtalk; it doesn't make a difference what the username is, chicanery is still chicanery. That is why pilgrim.1 couldn't answer these same question in "her" days, why viaro couldn't answer these questions in "his" days and now why wordtalk can't answer then in his/her day.  

garyarnold:

What is difference between voluntary giving and voluntary tithing, other than the tenth?

Why all this argument for the sake of arguments? You can use just one example to clarify for your sake -

                        "Abraham gave tithes"

The two words are combined - GIVE and TITHES. What is so hard in that?
Now, did he give tithes VOLUNTARILY or NOT?

Again, wordtalk avoids answering a simple question:

What is difference between voluntary giving and voluntary tithing, other than the tenth?

Enigma:


As I said before, the sleight of hand was tried as pilgrim.1, as viaro and now as wordtalk; it doesn't make a difference what the username is, chicanery is still chicanery. That is why pilgrim.1 couldn't answer these same question in "her" days, why viaro couldn't answer these questions in "his" days and now why wordtalk can't answer then in his/her day.  

Please stop making unintelligent excuses. Did YOU answer that question - post #129 or any other post? Did YOU? If you did, show me and I would be thankful. If you did not and try to argue the trash of post #129 as your answer, then I'd call your bluff for what it is.

This becomes disheartening

@Gary: voluntary "tithing" means (to ME) giving a tenth to whoever as you decide to do so


Voluntary "giving" includes voluntary tithing but is NOT restricted to it - I can voluntarily give 1% or 7% or 16% as well as 10%

And I do know that even today in Israel, tithe IS ON CROPS and is not paid by soldiers or carpenters! Wikipedia will clarify that! So as I said, I get your point but if we do not start somewhere, we cannot get anywhere

garyarnold:

Again, wordtalk avoids answering a simple question:

What is difference between voluntary giving and voluntary tithing, other than the tenth?

Dude, are you dumb or what? How is it that when I answer a question the best you can do is be blind and deny that I did?

What did I say here?? ---

wordtalk:

Why all this argument for the sake of arguments? You can use just one example to clarify for your sake -

                        "Abraham gave tithes"

The two words are combined - GIVE and TITHES. What is so hard in that?

Then I asked: "Now, did he give tithes VOLUNTARILY or NOT?"

The reason why you make all these silly denials is so you can cheat by evading answers to the questions I ask. Try harder.

@Nuclearboy,

@Gary: voluntary "tithing" means (to ME) giving a tenth to whoever as you decide to do so

Tenth of what? Does it have to be one's total income? Can it be a loaf of bread?

@ Nuke

Well, I'm going to "chill" a bit ----- but I hope you now see the reason for my very first post.

I still wait to see proof that "voluntary" truly means "voluntary".  

I am not the dumb one, wordtalk. What Abram did doesn't in any way answer the question:

What is difference between voluntary giving and voluntary tithing, other than the tenth?

Abram gave a "tithe" voluntarily!

Solomon gave a "gift" voluntarily

Bottom line - both WERE voluntary, not compulsory!

But today, few preach either as voluntary

Because "wordtalk" does, I want to believe he is fine and will give him benefit of the doubt! At least I know that if he later says voluntary means compulsory, all of us here will witness it and remind him of his words here!

garyarnold:

I am not the dumb one, wordtalk. What Abram did doesn't in any way answer the question:

Okay, fine. I take it back - as long as you would refrain from categorically denying that I answered the question.

What is difference between voluntary giving and voluntary tithing, other than the tenth?

I have said that both words are combined as in the example of Abraham. Following that, nuclearboy's answer clarified even further to show that one is involved in the other - but they are not restricted in only that manner.

If I go on with further clarification for my initial answer, this is why I said that they are combined -

In Genesis 14:20 we read that Abraham GAVE him (Melchizedek) TITHES ("And he gave him tithes of all", KJV). In Hebrews 7:2 the same thing is said - "Abraham gave a tenth part of all", as well in Hebrews 7:4 - "the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils."

The point is that "GIVE" and "TITHES" are used in the same connection in Abraham's example to show that they are used in a combined sense. Tithing is Giving.

The other part of the question is whether GIVING TITHES can be VOLUNTARY. I asked you that question which you did not answer - but that is okay. We all understand that Abraham's giving of tithes to Melchizedek was voluntary - and that is the sense in which "voluntary tithing" and "voluntary giving" could both point to the same thing.

This does not mean that the only type of voluntary giving is voluntary tithes - no; and that is not what I have argued. So, what is the problem?

@ Nuke

If "voluntary" means "voluntary", then:

(a) the tithe does not have to be money, it can be food stuff, "provisions" etc, and

(b) whether it is in money form or as food stuff, provisions etc, it does not have to be given in/to church; instead it can be given directly to widows etc.


A person who is truly preaching voluntary tithes will not hesitate to agree to these.

nuclearboy:

Because "wordtalk" does, I want to believe he is fine and will give him benefit of the doubt! At least I know that if he later says voluntary means compulsory, all of us here will witness it and remind him of his words here!

Superbly put! Thank you. Since I have not argued anywhere to make "voluntary tithes" a matter of "compulsory tithes", I wonder why these guys are frantically trying to read the latter into my posts!

On wordtalks website, he defines voluntary tithing as follows:
"the voluntary giving of a tenth of my income"

Not just a tenth of anything, but a tenth of his income.  Therefore, wordtalk is using his own definition, or one he took from man-made dictionaries, or one he heard a pastor use.  Yet, nowhere in the scriptures was tithing commanded on anyone's income.

Now, is everyone here supposed to accept wordtalks definition for tithing?  It's not Biblical.

OK Nuke, I will put the test expressly to wordtalk once again so you can see clearly the answers to the following questions yourself.


@ wordtalk

If tithing is "voluntary", then:

1. Can the tither choose to tithe with provisions, food stuff, crops ---- instead of money?

2. Whether with money or with provisions etc --- can the tither give the tithe directly to widows etc instead of in/to church?

garyarnold:

On wordtalks website, he defines voluntary tithing as follows:
"the voluntary giving of a tenth of my income"

Not just a tenth of anything, but a tenth of his income.  Therefore, wordtalk is using his own definition, or one he took from man-made dictionaries, or one he heard a pastor use.  Yet, nowhere in the scriptures was tithing commanded on anyone's income.

Now, is everyone here supposed to accept wordtalks definition for tithing?  It's not Biblical.

Someone has asked me what I could possibly mean by tithing from income. I tried to show from the BIBLE what that meant to me - https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-739830.0.html#msg8970086  

I did not use the so-called "man-made dictionaries" in my answer, so where garyarnold is coming up with all this drab is rather funny.

After all this, garyarnold has said several times that tithing was from ASSET. When I asked him where he saw "ASSET" in his beloved KJV Bible, he never once showed me or even attempted to quote any verse. The questions are still the same -

 - (a) where in the Bible (your own favourite KJV) have you read of the word "ASSET"?

 - (b) what word do you know in the Bible that is used for INCOME and REVENUE?

 - (c) what word do you know in the Bible that is used for "ASSET"?

You can accuse me all you want - that's okay, since your accusations can't stand up to be defended with substance. One thing I find rather funny is that you CANNOT SHOW any verse in the same Bible for YOUR OWN assertion. So who are you trying to impress with all your frantic swings?

Enigma:

OK Nuke, I will put the test expressly to wordtalk once again so you can see clearly the answers to the following questions yourself.


@ wordtalk

If tithing is "voluntary", then:

1. Can the tither choose to tithe with provisions, food stuff, crops ---- instead of money?

2. Whether with money or with provisions etc --- can the tither give the tithe directly to widows etc instead of in/to church?

@Enigma, I will answer your questions - trust me, I will - BUT ONLY IF you seriously answer this question:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-739830.128.html#msg8975551

IF you will not answer, I will not take you seriously enough in these things.

Does nobody get my point in asking for the difference between voluntary giving and voluntary tithing?

Voluntary giving - I can give what I want to wherever I want.  I can give a loaf of bread to my neighbor.  It is voluntary and not restricted as to what I give or who I give it to.

Voluntary tithing - Can I also give a tenth of whatever I want, and to wherever I want?  Can I give a tenth of a loaf of breat to my neighbor as a tithe?  OR is it restricted as to what I can give and who I must give it to?

Abram did not give a tenth of his wealth nor did he give a tenth of his regular income.  He gave a tenth of a one-time event.  Therefore, am I a tither if I give a tenth of something I earn or receive one time?

This is why voluntary tithing is a joke.  It is IDENTICAL to voluntary giving, except whatever is given must be a tenth of something.  Therefore, no need to be bothered with voluntary tithing.  Just be a giver and forget it.

wordtalk:

@Enigma, I will answer your questions - trust me, I will - BUT ONLY IF you seriously answer this question:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-739830.128.html#msg8975551

IF you will not answer, I will not take you seriously enough in these things.

You think I mind whether you of all people take me seriously? Dream on!

No matter what wordtalk says, there is NO example in the Bible of anyone tithing on income.  Wordtalk obviously doesn't know what income is.

Therefore, no point in discussing accounting terms with someone who lacks the knowledge to understand the very basics in accounting.  Jacob did not vow to tithe on income.  Abram did not tithe on income.  None of the tithing commands was on income.  And I am not saying this because the word income is not used in the KJV, I am saying this because none of those examples meets the definition of income.  But they do meet the definition of assets.

Wordtalk needs another accounting class before he can intelligently discuss income.

garyarnold:

Does nobody get my point in asking for the difference between voluntary giving and voluntary tithing?

Have you got the point in our answer between voluntary tithing and voluntary giving?

Voluntary giving - I can give what I want to wherever I want.  I can give a loaf of bread to my neighbor.  It is voluntary and not restricted as to what I give or who I give it to.

Has anybody argued against that? Are you saying this because you read somewhere that either myself or nuclearboy has argued to the contrary?

Voluntary tithing - Can I also give a tenth of whatever I want, and to wherever I want?  Can I give a tenth of a loaf of breat to my neighbor as a tithe?  OR is it restricted as to what I can give and who I must give it to?

You should not complicate things for yourself. Give if you want to - don't give if you don't want to: it is not a do-or-die matter! You argued about giving "a loaf of bread", only now to narrow it down to "a tenth of a loaf" - what are you really saying? You will also observe that the question is whether that is your income - but again you don't want it to be based off of your income. This is why you don't seem to reason along with others but pushing just to hear what you want to hear.

Abram did not give a tenth of his wealth nor did he give a tenth of his regular income.  He gave a tenth of a one-time event.  Therefore, am I a tither if I give a tenth of something I earn or receive one time?

What does Genesis 14:20 and Hebrews 7:2 & 4 say Abraham GAVE? I know in other places you have even denied that Abraham gave TITHES - and the people whom you were debating with corrected you. If Abraham did not give tithes, what did he give?

This is why voluntary tithing is a joke.  It is IDENTICAL to voluntary giving, except whatever is given must be a tenth of something.  Therefore, no need to be bothered with voluntary tithing.  Just be a giver and forget it.

Why do you bother to make so much irrational argument only to come to the conclusion that voluntary tithing is identical to voluntary giving? This is why the joke is on you dude - because you seem not to read what others are saying before making ridiculous remarks.

Enigma:

You think I mind whether you of all people take me seriously? Dream on!

Oh no - my mistake to have even assumed at any time that you were worth more than dust! 

^^^ Typical pilgrim.1 and viaro; you really haven't changed after all.

garyarnold:

No matter what wordtalk says, there is NO example in the Bible of anyone tithing on income.  Wordtalk obviously doesn't know what income is.

You really should not be sounding so ridiculous at your age! Whatever you can assert, deny, evade, conjure, etc., etc., WHERE is your own verse from the Bible for tithing from "ASSET"? Where do you read of the word "ASSET" in the tithing verses?

Therefore, no point in discussing accounting terms with someone who lacks the knowledge to understand the very basics in accounting.

I feel deeply sorry for you! Who was trying to cheat the public with claims between financial planning and budgeting? Who did you manage to deceive with your claims of teaching finance without budgeting?

Jacob did not vow to tithe on income.  Abram did not tithe on income.  None of the tithing commands was on income.  And I am not saying this because the word income is not used in the KJV, I am saying this because none of those examples meets the definition of income.  But they do meet the definition of assets.

Please show me the VERSE for "ASSET" in the tithing verses that you have been claiming without evidence. Why is that too hard for you to do?

Wordtalk needs another accounting class before he can intelligently discuss income.

No thanks - if that is your style of advertizing your wares, sorry I won't buy!

What a complete waste of time, effort and space. Among christians, simple questions should be answered simply and directly. Long responses to simple requests only serve to obfuscate and derail.

@wordtalk,

And where did the KJV ever use the word income?

The word used is not the issue.  A duck is a duck whether you call it a duck or not.  Income is income whether you call it income or not.  An asset is an asset whether you call it an asset or not.

When you want to know if something is income or an asset, consult a reliable accountant.