Bidam:
OK i have heard you could you kindly step aside.i want to learn from goshen not you

ok

shdemidemi:


ok

But seriously i kept wondering where my statement advocated keeping the law of Moses. These are your preconceived notions. But any way let's wait for Goshen exegesis on the subject matter. I hope he will do more justice to this.

Following

Bidam:


It was really 2 simple questions i asked you on the midas thread and that is are christians obligated to keep the weightier matters of matters of the Law in Mathew 23:23 and why should Paul used the Law of Moses to encourage christians to support minister, but you went all round posting lies against me. God is watching you.

Welcome on board and please excuse my little absence. You know we don't work and live here on nairaland.

1. ^ The "weightier matters of the law" are in that context of Christ's statement was for those under the law. Christians do not need to do such things because the law said so. Christ made that statement in connection with the tithe as under the law, so you tithing according to the law, what Christ was saying, why still do you neglect weightier matters of the same law you tithing according to? Do you love, show mercy and judgment because the law said so or because the Spirit of God in YOU produce such fruit? Lemme show you you don't need the law to do such things:

New Living Translation
But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!

Against such, there's no law. WOW!!! I don't run above the speed limits because the law against speeding said so, I don't speed because the Holy Spirit communicates the risk and danger to me and let me understand speed kills and also let me understand my family need me, I don't have to do stupid things and kill myself. This is revelation beyond the law. Now, when I obey the speed limit, am I obeying it because of the posted speed limit?

Hang in with me, you'll learn something if pride will not stop you anyway....

...and why should Paul used the Law of Moses to encourage Christians to support minister?

Paul, the Apostle here was saying this to address his audience who are still tied to the law. Like just in case, you want to look at it from the law aspect, doesn't the law say the same thing? He already established his case as an Apostle and even at that, he was still going to make it a freewill not coarse. Let's look at it:

New International Version
Do I say this merely on human authority? Doesn't the Law say the same thing?
1 Corinthians 9:8

This statement was made in verse 8 of 1 Cor. 9, right? Now let's follow the context downward ...

New International Version
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.

New Living Translation
When I was with the Jews, I lived like a Jew to bring the Jews to Christ. When I was with those who follow the Jewish law, I too lived under that law. Even though I am not subject to the law, I did this so I could bring to Christ those who are under the law. When I am with the Gentiles who do not follow the Jewish law, I too live apart from that law so I can bring them to Christ. But I do not ignore the law of God; I obey the law of Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:20-21

In the same chapter, few verses below, the audience were made known to us. Paul himself said, he himself is not under the Jewish law but "be like" one. It doesn't make him a law keeper as he said he is a free man only bound to Christ. He "became like" that for a reason: to win the Jews from under the law to Grace of Christ which was same Christ did, to redeem those under the law. So, when you take that statement out of context, you think, just like you thinking and walking everywhere that Paul used the law or OT to justify suppose the ministers. A Christian is not supposed to be told to suppose his minister that teaches him\her well in the word, this are part of the fruit of the Spirit. Many times, you don't investigate any statement that seems to look contradictory but you just choose the one that appeals to your teaching and run with it. Learn to rightly divide the word and drop your own opinion.

Bidam:


Thanks for opening this thread so i can expose you errors once and for all.

And what are those part of the Law bidam and others keep? The problem with you is that you keep making the same mistakes for so many years that i am tired of engaging you in worthless debates that consumes my time and that of others. I am wearied about your fixation on the law. You are ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of Christ.

1. Well, whatever errors of mine, you can expose here or open another thread if it is not related to this topic and we will discuss it. Don't be afraid to call a brother out. This is an online discussion and we can communicate effectively.

2. You know the parts of the law you and others like Image123, Olaadegbu, Alwaystrue, Gombs, Mbaemeka etc advocate on this forum. Those parts are aspect of your divisions to the law - moral, ceremonial and sacrificial laws. There's no such things as such. When Paul the Apostle dismissed the law and nullified it as part of what is crucified with Christ, the 10 commandments that is called moral law was part of it and I CAN SHOW YOU THIS FROM SCRIPTURE. So, when he talked about the law, it is all inclusive what was given to Moses, not some. You even fought for child dedication according to the law and some other things I can specifically mention now. Even tithe, you guys are now hiding behind Abraham tithe but you still support your argument with the law verses of tithing so who is deceiving who?

My fixation with the law? It is contrary to the covenant of Grace in Christ. The apostles never taught it mixed with the finished works of Christ. It renders useless the finished works of Christ. It is the major cause of mixture and confusion in the body of Christ. We are freed from it and we shouldn't return to it. The law and its ordinances and commandments are not meant nor given to Christians in the first place, why must we take some and leave some? Finally, tearing down the law is building up the Grace of God in Christian living\relationship with God through Christ.

New Living Translation
Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down.
Galatians 2:18

Amplified Bible (AMP)
For if I [or any others who have taught that the observance of the Law of Moses is not essential to being justified by God should now by word or practice teach or intimate that it is essential to] build up again what I tore down, I prove myself a transgressor.

Bidam:
^^^ It is simple really and the issue is not what you are saying. I wonder why it is difficult for folks like you and Goshen to comprehend simple statements from scriptures. The law does not make us righteous before God.“For Christ is the termination of the Law (as Israel’s way of seeking to attain righteousness before God by doing its works) so that righteousness is (now) for all who believe (in the Christ whom God has raised from the dead and established as Lord).”

It means that God has brought an end to the futile attempt to attain righteousness with God by doing the works of the Law (Rom. 2:13; 3:19-
20; 7:7-12).

It does not mean that the Law has been abrogated or rendered totally useless like you and goshen are propagating. The Law is still valid as a way for Christians to live an upright and moral life in accord with God’s Spirit. Indeed, as Paul insisted previously, we do not nullify the Law
through faith, “on the contrary, we uphold the Law” (3:31).

Those who have been made righteous by faith and have thus received the holy Spirit are now able to fulfill the requirements of the Law ( Rom 8:4), and by loving one another Christians fulfill the Law ( Rom13:8-10).

Thus, the law retains its role as a code of moral behavior, but loses its role as a way of attaining righteousness with God.

The bolded is a Goshen Smasher anyday.

2nd timothy 3

Give thanks for being so lucid.

Bidam:


Let's take tithing for instance because that's the real reason you had to open a thread to attack my liberty. There is NO SCRIPTURE that condemns tithing as a form of giving. There is liberty in Christ, people are free to express their givings in the form of tithes today. I won't be drawn into useless debates on this issue. My post is clear enough for anyone who is interested in my stand on the issue. And as for firstborn offerings, no where did i say that. The topic i opened was on child dedication, pls feel free to go through it, rather than the lies you peddle here. There was no where i advocated firstfruits for believers on this forum, pls you can also quote it, or we label you a LIAR here.

I didn't open this thread because of tithe and we both know it. You asked a question which you first attest to in your first response and I told you to open another thread so we don't derail the Midas thread and you insisted I answer on that thread. I told you it's not going to be easy talking that question on that thread but will be better on another thread and I asked you to open it or I will open it at my own time, which I did.

There is NO SCRIPTURE that condemns tithing as a form of giving....There is liberty in Christ, people are free to express their givings in the form of tithes today.

You've been taught lies and you never investigated it. Maybe you're sincerely wrong, only God can tell. Actually, there tithing is not a "form of giving" as long as it places a fixed % on such giving. This is what you need to understand. So, in truth, the NT scriptures such as 2 Corinthians 9:7 is an Apostolic truth that dismisses tithing (a fixed %) as a form of giving. If a man decides to give 10%, that okay. If a man decides to give 1, 2, 6, 15, 11 % of his income, that fine because every giving is always a certain % of one's income. BUT to teach that people should give BASED ON A FIXED % (10) is to make giving NOT AS A MAN PURPOSED IN HIS HEART ANYMORE. Preachers already fixed the percentage (10%) and leaves no room any more for the giver to purpose in his heart.

There's liberty in Christ but Christians are not truly liberated as regards this tithing....NOT AS A FORM OF GIVING. Remove the FIXED % of 10 and allow the man to decide what he gives and then it becomes true liberty in Christ. If you say give and set the rules as 10%, there's no more liberty for me to purpose in my heart. So, tithing is not a form of giving when rules\% is set or fixed.

As for firstborn & firstfruit offerings etc, you might not teach it here on this forum but many churches out there still does as you know it except you want to deny the truth and many more things from the law. Like I said, you still copied some e.g, tithing, child dedication according to the law....make I stop at those 2 until I catch you with more....

MostHigh:



The bolded is a Goshen Smasher anyday.

2nd timothy 3

Give thanks for being so lucid.

The law retains moral code? and You run to comment? Aren't you people calling the 10 commandment moral law? I'm about to show you people from 2 or more scriptures that whole of Christian morality is not based on the fact that the 10 commandment said so..... Hang on a little....with me, you will learn something.....

Bidam:


I am waiting for you eisegesis on the issue.

This scripture you quoted is lifted off context and has absolutely nothing whatsover to do with the Law. Christ did not say He hate the law, Goshen said that. The so called "babylon doctrine" in church is not whether bidam and others tithe but it's about peddling errors to our teenagers to indulge in premarital sex before they are lawfully wedded. Thanks.

1/ My expositions are based on when you bring up those scriptures that seems like Paul was still teaching obedience to "some part" of the law if he by the Spirit taught in Romans 7 that the whole law is what we are free from? When a man is free from prison, can such return to the prison and expect to live as a free man?

2/ What I teach on fornication is consistent with scriptures and I'm not ashame to teach it any time, anywhere. I have taught it and will teach it again, fornication is a sin to God and deadly sin for that matter BUT having sex with my fiancée is not regarded as part of the sin of fornication, neither by the Mosaic law or any Government law. Having sex with one's fiancée is different from whor.ing and we know the difference. The acts in the sin of fornication are clearly listed in scriptures and we can still discourse it here or you open a new thread again for us to discuss it. It can say what you want to say as per not sleeping with one's fiancée as moral right but it's scripturally wrong if we investigate the course.

Lemme ask you a question: If you read thou shall not commit fornication as you don't know what fornication is, where do you go and get the meanings\understand of it? Wisdom demands you go to where it was defined in the word and import the meaning into the text where you're reading thou shall not commit fornication. I have studied what I'm saying over and over again - when religion said fornication is sex outside of marriage. I heard Christ said, this sex outside marriage is going outside an existing marriage to have sex is what fornication meant, not how religion and religious people have expanded the meaning. There are also other meanings\acts in the sin of fornication that Paul listed, all these are what I also call fornication not the religious version.

A common problem is the assumptions we make when we read biblical text and terminologies and readily interpret what we read without checking the actual or root meaning of the word. We run away with half baked information and build a doctrine around our warped definition of it.

I must admit it is hard work to study every word used in the bible but it is a job we must do if we must expand scriptures to others. It is not enough to assume what we think the bible is saying without rigorous checks to be sure of what one is inducing one's mind by.

Lazy teachers\pastors who fail to study the book are most culpable for the mass ignorance within christendom, well behind those who knowingly adulterate the word for lustful purposes.

Goshen360:


The law retains moral code? and You run to comment? Aren't you people calling the 10 commandment moral law? I'm about to show you people from 2 or more scriptures that whole of Christian morality is not based on the fact that the 10 commandment said so..... Hang on a little....with me, you will learn something.....

Christ hater.

Paul lover.

Bidam:
^^^ It is simple really and the issue is not what you are saying. I wonder why it is difficult for folks like you and Goshen to comprehend simple statements from scriptures. The law does not make us righteous before God.“For Christ is the termination of the Law (as Israel’s way of seeking to attain righteousness before God by doing its works) so that righteousness is (now) for all who believe (in the Christ whom God has raised from the dead and established as Lord).”

It means that God has brought an end to the futile attempt to attain righteousness with God by doing the works of the Law (Rom. 2:13; 3:19-
20; 7:7-12).

That verse says exactly what you interpreted it to be - attempting to keep the law for righteousness. So, we agree that the law keeping doesn't work for obtaining righteousness right. Okay. We move on, that's exactly what that verse says.

Bidam:


It does not mean that the Law has been abrogated or rendered totally useless like you and goshen are propagating. The Law is still valid as a way for Christians to live an upright and moral life in accord with God’s Spirit. Indeed, as Paul insisted previously, we do not nullify the Law
through faith, “on the contrary, we uphold the Law” (3:31).

Again, this is why we say you still teach "some part of the law" - moral & upright life. First, lemme ask you, why do you think you always need to law to tell you to live moral if you now have the Holy Spirit? You are saying exact opposite to what the Apostles taught - there's no moral code and upright living for Christians in the law, but in the Spirit of God. Joseph didn't have the law before he forbid to sleep with another man's wife. Does he? It seems to me, you don't know why the law was given to Israel in the first place. God never intended them to live by rules and regulations.

Now, let's test from scriptures this so called "moral and upright code":

In Romans 7, the Apostle began to talk about the Law and "some" was thinking he was referring to some part of the law just like you making distinctions. The Apostle made it clear in verse 7 that the Law is 10 commandments inclusive:

7 What then do we conclude? Is the Law identical with sin? Certainly not! Nevertheless, if it had not been for the Law, I should not have recognized sin or have known its meaning. [For instance] I would not have known about covetousness [would have had no consciousness of sin or sense of guilt] if the Law had not [repeatedly] said, You shall not covet and have an evil desire [for one thing and another].

Thou shall not covet is not ceremonial nor sacrificial law, is it? So, When you read down the verse, he said he was alive unto to God until the law came and revived sin in him because without the thou shall not, he is alive but when thou shall not covet (10 commandment) came, sin revived in him. What a mystery to 10 commandment keepers. What am I saying, a Christian doesn't need the moral code of 10 commandments to live upright, YOU HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT TO GUIDE YOU AND CONVICT YOU OF SIN according to the word.

Indeed, as Paul insisted previously, we do not nullify the Law through faith, “on the contrary, we uphold the Law”
I have waited for an opportunity to discuss this your favorite verse with you. First, we have to ask how do we uphold the law? By keeping\observing it or by believing what is written in the law? Paul believed what was written in the law but didn't keep the Mosaic neither taught keeping the law to Christians. The law is NOT of faith, how then do we uphold what is not of faith by faith? What he's saying is, we don't discard the law because of the way of faith but we uphold it by believing what was written in the law. Most times, that Paul teach from the Law, he uphold it by bring out the aforementioned of finished works of Christ that was foretold in the law. That's bring out the substance of faith out from the law as foretold and showing the revelation of the Christ that was written in the law to Christians. He can't be upholding the law by teaching us to keep\observe it and at the same time, telling us we are free from the law and we no longer have any relationship with it. Hence, the law is good, ONLY IF A MAN USES IT RIGHTLY so we can say, we uphold the law as law as it is used rightly even though we are of faith.

Bidam:


Those who have been made righteous by faith and have thus received the holy Spirit are now able to fulfill the requirements of the Law ( Rom 8:4), and by loving one another Christians fulfill the Law ( Rom13:8-10).

Thus, the law retains its role as a code of moral behavior, but loses its role as a way of attaining righteousness with God.[\b]

Again Bidam, you are teaching unApostolic teaching - there's no where we are taught to live the requirements of the law BY THE HOLY SPIRIT after we are made righteous. You need to slow down and learn some truth by yourself aside what you have been taught for years. On the contrary, THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN MADE RIGHTEOUS ARE TO LIVE BY FAITH ARE TO LIVE ALSO BY FAITH SAME FAITH WITH WHICH THEY ARE MADE RIGHTEOUS.

[b]Romans 1:17, Amplified Bible (AMP)
For in the Gospel a righteousness which God ascribes is revealed, both springing from faith and leading to faith [disclosed through the way of faith that arouses to more faith]. As it is written, The man who through faith is just and upright shall live and shall live by faith.

New Living Translation
For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders.
1 Timothy 1:9

What you just said is complete dismissed in Galatians 3 and the verses above - returning to live the requirements of the law BY THE SPIRIT. Are you righteous in Christ? Do you kill your parents? Are you holy, do you commit murder? If you don't do none of these, why do you think you need the law? Clearly, if is not meant for those who don't do such things. So your statement up there is untrue!!!.

Also, don't always read into context like I've been saying but search of the truth of the meaning. When you read love one another, does that mean you are keeping the law? We don't love one another as a "condition" for God to love us back. We love one another because we have first being loved and from the bowels of this love of God towards us, we express it to others. So, when it says, Love is the fulfillment of the law. It means, the whole essence of the law was wrapped in love. If you love you don't have to worry about keeping the law in simple terms. It was in love that Joseph walked and this love is produced by God's Spirit in us just like I said, you can do something by the Spirit which is also stated in the law but you keep ascribing that thing to you fulfilling the law not knowing without the law, the Holy Spirit will still tell you no to do such wrong things. That's the law of love that is produced by the Spirit of God, not what is born out of our own efforts because as a matter of fact\truth, we can't truly love our neighbor as ourselves except by the Spirit of God.

[b]Thus, the law retains its role as a code of moral behavior, but loses its role as a way of attaining righteousness with God.[\b]

The law of Moses especially the 10 commandment as MORAL law loses both its code for moral behavior and attaining righteousness on Christians, replaced by the Spirit of God. When the Corinthians church was messed in all manners of sin that even unbelievers aren't doing, did Paul corrected their morality by the 10 commandment or by telling them, don't you know you're a new creature and that the Spirit of God now resides in you? You shouldn't be engaged in such immorality. He didn't import the 10 commandment to correct their moral behavior. Maybe the Spirit of God forgot to use the 10 commandment to correct moral behavior through Paul then. I just showed you in Romans 7:7, when the law is mentioned as regards Moses, the 10 commandments are inclusive, that is what you people called moral laws. Understand this, the 10 commandment wasn't in place before Joseph said, "how can I do such wickedness and sin against God?"

MostHigh:


Christ hater.

Paul lover.

Christ and Paul never contradicted each other. Paul built on Christ's teaching and he expanded it to revelations of the finished works of Christ. His letters are not mere inks\words, they are revelations!!! Dig Christ's word and Paul's message if you won't find revelations.

Well, I'm tired for today. I have to go prepare for work. I will continue hopefully tomorrow.

Goshen360:


Christ and Paul never contradicted each other. Paul built on Christ's teaching and he expanded it to revelations of the finished works of Christ. His letters are not mere inks\words, they are revelations!!! Dig Christ's word and Paul's message if you won't find revelations.

Abeg Who send paul message?

Are the words of christ not enough for you?

Are they not the final authority?

Like I said you fight the written word and you fight Christ dont decieve yaself.

Christ hater.

Bidam:
^^^ It is simple really and the issue is not what you are saying. I wonder why it is difficult for folks like you and Goshen to comprehend simple statements from scriptures. The law does not make us righteous before God.“For Christ is the termination of the Law (as Israel’s way of seeking to attain righteousness before God by doing its works) so that righteousness is (now) for all who believe (in the Christ whom God has raised from the dead and established as Lord).”

It means that God has brought an end to the futile attempt to attain righteousness with God by doing the works of the Law (Rom. 2:13; 3:19-
20; 7:7-12).

It does not mean that the Law has been abrogated or rendered totally useless like you and goshen are propagating. The Law is still valid as a way for Christians to live an upright and moral life in accord with God’s Spirit. Indeed, as Paul insisted previously, we do not nullify the Law
through faith, “on the contrary, we uphold the Law” (3:31).

Those who have been made righteous by faith and have thus received the holy Spirit are now able to fulfill the requirements of the Law ( Rom 8:4), and by loving one another Christians fulfill the Law ( Rom13:8-10).

Thus, the law retains its role as a code of moral behavior, but loses its role as a way of attaining righteousness with God.

This is bullocks
A shirt can't be white and at the same time black
What laws exactly are you referring to and how did you pick and choose which ones to keepa.

Bidam:
Yawn! The book of Hebrews makes it clear that various washings and physical sacrifices were done away.

The principles of the Law still applies. For example do you have intercourse with your wife when she is menstruating?

We do it steady.what is wrong with that?

Goshen360:
Well, I'm tired for today. I have to go prepare for work. I will continue hopefully tomorrow.

You are very knowledgeable in spiritual matters
I am enjoying your write up
Some of these people preaching these strange gospel of laws will do well to tell us their denominations
It may help us understand where they are coming from
You may be arguing with JW,seventh day Adventists and Mormons and their strange doctrine without knowing it

babyosisi:


This is bullocks
A shirt can't be white and at the same time black
What laws exactly are you referring to and how did you pick and choose which ones to keepa.

How do you tell if a shirt is black or if a shirt is white using your analogy? By outward pious appearance or by fruits. Paul said i desire the law of God after the inner man. What law was paul talking about here? What is the Spirit of the Law? If you could honestly answer these, then you would comprehend my post.

babyosisi:

[/b]
We do it steady.what is wrong with that?

Nothing maybe wrong with it in your pagan opinion as long as you don't make it a rule for others. Marriage is honourable when the bed is pure. Moreso gentiles are advised to abstain from blood( Acts 15:29). If God sees menstrual flow as disgusting and hates it by making a comparism of it with the sins of Israel so do i.( Ezekiel 36:17).

MostHigh:


Abeg Who send paul message?

Are the words of christ not enough for you?

Are they not the final authority?

Like I said you fight the written word and you fight Christ dont decieve yaself.

Christ hater.

Lol the Most High sent the prophets, our people did not listen. Yahshua came, most of us did not listen.

Thousands of years later, negroes are debating about some letters written by a guy to other negroes, who at the time, would not listen.

One, who used to contend with me against the law, is seemingly advocating parts of it...haha there is a scripture for you brother...

The other, is a child of the devil who talks bout living by faith...not quite sure why the two are mutually exclusive, but that's none of my business...Just observing the confusion the romans created, called christianity.

Where is my palm wine jor...

^^^Lol

Guess this guy is tired of twisting the words of Paul, he would rather rip it out of his bible altogether at this point. I am glad you have decided to come clean now by contemptuously disregarding the word of the Apostle. Atleast, it is much better than when you were living in dissimulation and coming up with shoddy and blasphemous treatise of the man's teachings.

Good morning, Well Matthew 5:17 Christ made it clear that he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfil it, it is ONLY JESUS CHRIST THAT CAN MAKE ONE RIGHTEOUS BY PUTTING HIS LOVE IN OUR HEARTS WHEN JESUS COMES INTO US WE'LL LOVE HIM AND ONLY THEN WE CAN LIVE HOLY, WITHOUT THE LOVE OF GOD IN US WE ARE NOTHING.

Goshen360:


I didn't open this thread because of tithe and we both know it. You asked a question which you first attest to in your first response and I told you to open another thread so we don't derail the Midas thread and you insisted I answer on that thread. I told you it's not going to be easy talking that question on that thread but will be better on another thread and I asked you to open it or I will open it at my own time, which I did.

There is NO SCRIPTURE that condemns tithing as a form of giving....There is liberty in Christ, people are free to express their givings in the form of tithes today.

You've been taught lies and you never investigated it. Maybe you're sincerely wrong, only God can tell. Actually, there tithing is not a "form of giving" as long as it places a fixed % on such giving. This is what you need to understand. So, in truth, the NT scriptures such as 2 Corinthians 9:7 is an Apostolic truth that dismisses tithing (a fixed %) as a form of giving. If a man decides to give 10%, that okay. If a man decides to give 1, 2, 6, 15, 11 % of his income, that fine because every giving is always a certain % of one's income. BUT to teach that people should give BASED ON A FIXED % (10) is to make giving NOT AS A MAN PURPOSED IN HIS HEART ANYMORE. Preachers already fixed the percentage (10%) and leaves no room any more for the giver to purpose in his heart.

There's liberty in Christ but Christians are not truly liberated as regards this tithing....NOT AS A FORM OF GIVING. Remove the FIXED % of 10 and allow the man to decide what he gives and then it becomes true liberty in Christ. If you say give and set the rules as 10%, there's no more liberty for me to purpose in my heart. So, tithing is not a form of giving when rules\% is set or fixed.

As for firstborn & firstfruit offerings etc, you might not teach it here on this forum but many churches out there still does as you know it except you want to deny the truth and many more things from the law. Like I said, you still copied some e.g, tithing, child dedication according to the law....make I stop at those 2 until I catch you with more....

So are you saying if I give 10% of my income or dedicate my child in faith and in full knowledge that it is not a "legal" obligation I am still obeying the law?