Segeggs: The body of christ has no name;the first church too. Catholics hijacked christianity and paganised it.

Eboski: The op asked a very good qts,which church is the first church on earth? If not catholic,who else?

deSika: i asked this quetion to clarify some points i just couldnt reconcile
1. the new testament mentions some churches but neva identifies any as roman catholic church. so how could the RCC have existed b4 them.
2. Christ is the founder and centre of christianity. even though some apostles found thier way to rome later. the bible clearly tells us that the disciples met together to pray and study scriptures after christ departure. now what else defines church but this (coming together to fellowship). since Jesus did not migrate his followers to rome its only natural that they would have held their meetings in their immediate vicinities. ie israel

so i think the problem arises when we dont clearly define what a church is. perhaps to them chuurch is just organised structure of believers having buildings. so maybe we can start from here.

what do u think church means. To me, church means an assembly or gathering of beleivers. it can be under a mango tree or in my room

dokie:

There ought not to have been an issue with which is the first church or not. this is only arising as a result of the protestant reformation which occured in the 15th century and has led to the multiplication of churches, each claiming to be superior to the other, and each having their own organizational structure. prior to that there was only one church which means body of Christ. the word catholic means universal. as such The phrase 'Catholic Church' means the universal body of christ. paul and other early disciples set up churches in different parts of the world. what you saw in the first and second chapter of revelation were churches that were set up in different parts of the world by these early missionaries. there existed other churches in different parts not mentioned in revelations like the church in corinth, rome, galatia, thessalonica, philipi etc. one thing about all these churches is that they got directives from a central seat more or less like a head quarters where the overall leaders were based i.e. jerusalem. this was where peter, the head of the church at that time was seated. as such, when there were difficult issues to be resolved, it was refered to Jerusalem so that the leaders will come up with a directive on that (acts 15: 1-35) and it becomes binding for all churches spread in different parts of the world. this is the structure that was and has continued all through the existence of the church. missionaries set up churches in different parts of the world, but the doctrines and rules of governance emanates from a headquarters where the successor to peter sits. presently, the successor to peter, that is the pope, sits in Rome. why the head quarters of the church moved to rome i believe is beyond our scope on this thread. now before the protestant reformation in the 15th century, there had been a major schism called the east-west schism in the year 1054. this divided the church into 2, the eastern church with the head in constantinople, and called the eastern orthodox church, and the western church with the head in rome, thus called the roman catholic church. before the schism, the recognized "capital" of the church was rome. as such rome has maintained that the head of the church in rome is the head of all the churches spread throughout the world,loyal to the western church.

so that i dont loose track, the reason why the rcc claims to be the first or mother church is that all other dissenting church organizations came out from its structure. luther, the leader of the reformation, was a catholic priest, once loyal to rome until he protested, was excommunicated, and then went ahead th set up the lutheran church. henry the 8 was the catholic king of england, who resisted the rsformation, but later took control of the church structure in england for some personal reasons to him, and this gave birth to the anglican church as we know it today. john calvins story is not any different. the split continues till today, no longer from the catholic church but among protestant churches.

with this in view, would it be wrong to say the rcc is the first organized body of christ?

deSika: i asked this quetion to clarify some points i just couldnt reconcile
1. the new testament mentions some churches but neva identifies any as roman catholic church. so how could the RCC have existed b4 them.
2. Christ is the founder and centre of christianity. even though some apostles found thier way to rome later. the bible clearly tells us that the disciples met together to pray and study scriptures after christ departure. now what else defines church but this (coming together to fellowship). since Jesus did not migrate his followers to rome its only natural that they would have held their meetings in their immediate vicinities. ie israel

so i think the problem arises when we dont clearly define what a church is. perhaps to them chuurch is just organised structure of believers having buildings. so maybe we can start from here.

what do u think church means. To me, church means an assembly or gathering of beleivers. it can be under a mango tree or in my room

frosbel:



There is ONLY one CHURCH and the representative of JESUS CHRIST is the HOLY SPIRIT not the POPE.

"as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, " - Ephesians 5:23b - 24a

"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you." - John 14:16

Three things to note :

1. The head of the church is Christ not the POPE
2. The church submits to Christ not to the POPE.
3. The Holy Spirit is present in all true believers, we do not need the POPE.

Lovethywilbedon: I don't know why you like diverting attentionn and thereby avoiding answering very simple questions. The three things you noted above, how does it answer the simple question he asked? Dokie asked a simple which you qouted, PLEASE ANSWER THE SIMPLE QUESTION.

dokie:

don't bother yourself with frosbel, he has nothing to offer. he presents irrelevant scriptures to butress irrelivant points. he needs a lot of prayers.

Anyigala: Your question is very simple and a simple answer is Yes, RCC is the mother Church and the 1st Church. The last book in the NT was written probably between 80- 90 AD, during this period Clement was Pope ( refered to as Bishop of Rome) then, St Ignatius was Bishop of Antioch from 70 - 107 AD and he was the 1st person in Christian literature to attribute to the Church the adjective "Catholic" or Universal. He said that "where Jesus Christ is there is the Catholic Church."
At the same time, Pope Clement was sending a strong worded letter to the Church in Corinthian calling them to task when the elders in the church were deposed by some young contestants. It is worth noting that John the apostle was still alive and living in Asian manor the same time.
By all historial account, up until the split between East and West around 1000 AD and the Catastrophic reformation 500 yrs later, their was only one Christian denomination and it was the Catholic Church. As Blessed Henry Newman said " To be deep in history is to stop being a protestant".

Lovethywilbedon: YES! with PENTICOSTAL PROTESTANTS, It can JUST be ANYWHERE. Under a mango tree, in a room, preferably in a HOTEL ROOM, Yes! it can be in a WAER HOUSE, it can be in a FOOTBALL PITCH, it can be in a MOTOR PARK. It can even be in TOILET, it can be in a BEER PALOUR, it can be in a BROTEL. Infact it can just be anywhere provided they are TWO or THREE and CLAIM to have gathered IN THE NAME OF CHRIST.

Segeggs: The body of christ has no name;the first church too. Catholics hijacked christianity and paganised it.

deSika:
am sure yu would that the new testament is a historical account of Jesus,his twelve, the early converts and the migration of the gospel to other places of which rome is just one of them.
how yu come to agree that christianity started in rome just beats me.

that historical account never mentions rome or roman catholic or pope as taking such a revered position in christianity. 2 most of what the roman catholic stands for are never mentioned in that account.

and again even if i agree that the church has always being catholic (universal) from time immorial. u hv to agree that there is a diference between catholic and roman catholic.

for one, the roman in that phrase neutralises the universality of the phrase for how can it be universal and also roman (rome is a part of the world).

FINAL WORD, if roman catholic church was the first church then it means the church referred to in 1cor 1:2, 15:9, acts 18:22, Rom 16:5, 1 cor 16:19 were roman catholic churches annd they had a pope.

rom 16:likewise, greet the church that is in their house.

deSika:
am sure yu would that the new testament is a historical account of Jesus,his twelve, the early converts and the migration of the gospel to other places of which rome is just one of them.
how yu come to agree that christianity started in rome just beats me.

that historical account never mentions rome or roman catholic or pope as taking such a revered position in christianity. 2 most of what the roman catholic stands for are never mentioned in that account.

and again even if i agree that the church has always being catholic (universal) from time immorial. u hv to agree that there is a diference between catholic and roman catholic.

for one, the roman in that phrase neutralises the universality of the phrase for how can it be universal and also roman (rome is a part of the world).

FINAL WORD, if roman catholic church was the first church then it means the church referred to in 1cor 1:2, 15:9, acts 18:22, Rom 16:5, 1 cor 16:19 were roman catholic churches annd they had a pope.

rom 16:likewise, greet the church that is in their house.

deSika:
am sure yu would that the new testament is a historical account of Jesus,his twelve, the early converts and the migration of the gospel to other places of which rome is just one of them.
how yu come to agree that christianity started in rome just beats me.

that historical account never mentions rome or roman catholic or pope as taking such a revered position in christianity. 2 most of what the roman catholic stands for are never mentioned in that account.

and again even if i agree that the church has always being catholic (universal) from time immorial. u hv to agree that there is a diference between catholic and roman catholic.

for one, the roman in that phrase neutralises the universality of the phrase for how can it be universal and also roman (rome is a part of the world).

FINAL WORD, if roman catholic church was the first church then it means the church referred to in 1cor 1:2, 15:9, acts 18:22, Rom 16:5, 1 cor 16:19 were roman catholic churches annd they had a pope.

rom 16:likewise, greet the church that is in their house.

frosbel:



There is ONLY one CHURCH and the representative of JESUS CHRIST is the HOLY SPIRIT not the POPE.

"as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, " - Ephesians 5:23b - 24a

"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you." - John 14:16

Three things to note :

1. The head of the church is Christ not the POPE
2. The church submits to Christ not to the POPE.
3. The Holy Spirit is present in all true believers, we do not need the POPE.

brainpulse:

I think I like this from Frosbel.

When Christ the Head of the Church was refering to the churches in the Bible (Rev 3) He never mentioned the Catholic or one universal Church ( One of the doctrines of men to deceive men).

First let us look at Christ's words to the churches.

To the church in Sardis

These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches ( Catholic church was not mention).


2. Church in Philadephia.....Vs 6-8 etc


let us look at also Paul's latter to the church in Laodicea(Col 4:16), Ephesus (Ephe 1:1) even his letter to the church in Rome ( not roman catholic)

Anyigala: Before the distruction of Jerusalem in 70AD by Roman Empire,almost all Christians have left the city. Alexndra, Antioch, Corinth and Rome were the 4 centres of the early Christians with the same tradition, teaching and liturgy. Each centre has its own Bishops (I mentioned St Jerome and Bishop of Antioch from 70 -107AD) all directly or indirectly subject to Bishop of Rome hence Pope Clement telling off the Church in Corinth when they had Schism.
Its worth noting that there were theological debates but not one single Church father/Bishop challenged the authority of the Church of Rome when She exercises its influence or power of them. This topic is a beyond the scope of this tread, i have to specifically explain what the Early Church fathers believed the Church of Rome to be and all the intricate details which will probably take forever to do.
It is also worth mentioning that Holy Spirit didn't stop working after the Acts of the Apostles, it continued, guiding the Church to define the doctrine of Holy Trinity which was not defined or expanded in the NT.
Finally, the Churches in all the verses you mentioned were all Catholic, do they practice all we do now? No. Just like they don't know much about the Trinity then. They do have the Eucharist which is the summit of all Christians(Catholic) until the reformation.
St Jerome used Catholic to refer to the whole Christians at that time since there where no divisions hence all are one Universal Church "Catholic". "Roman" in Catholic Church is a very recent thing, all official documents of the Church has NO "Roman Catholic" in them. Catholic Church is Catholic Church, the Roman was probably used to affirmn that the whole Church is with the Roman Bishop.
If you wouldn't mind, could you tell me the kind of Church/Christianity that was in existance from 30AD to 1500AD and the difference between them and the Catholic Church of today. It will also be helpful to back your story up with historical facts.

Enigma:

There is plenty of falsehood in this post as to almost make the few useful things in it worthless.

1

Chapter XXV
Of the Church

I. The catholic or universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of Him that fills all in all.

II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion; and of their children: and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.

III. Unto this catholic visible Church Christ has given the ministry, oracles, and ordinances of God, for the gathering and perfecting of the saints, in this life, to the end of the world: and does, by His own presence and Spirit, according to His promise, make them effectual thereunto.

IV. This catholic Church has been sometimes more, sometimes less visible. And particular Churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the Gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them.

V. The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error; and some have so degenerated, as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan. Nevertheless, there shall be always a Church on earth to worship God according to His will.[12]

VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.