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Re: The Faulty Christianity by dolphinheart(m): 11:39pm On Apr 17, 2015 |
Maamin: Ok Bro, thanks, but if there is any issue you still like us to discuss, I'm free o . |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by Maamin(m): 6:51am On Apr 18, 2015 |
dolphinheart: Thanks a lot, trust me I will mention you if there is any issue. May be you might like to check on this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/2239564/jehova-witnesses-want-join-church/2#32836019 |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by dolphinheart(m): 12:40pm On Apr 18, 2015 |
Maamin: I have seen the thread , but I viewed that the op was just looking for a way to argue and not discuss, he has been told what to do and the website to go to if he really wants to find answers to his question and become a jw. But if you want my view on the issues raised by the op, I can post it on this thread for you to go through . |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by 5minsmadness: 2:40pm On Apr 18, 2015 |
ayoku777: Good answer. |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by Maamin(m): 4:56pm On Apr 18, 2015 |
dolphinheart: Yea! So many evidence...but is like the seven day adventist too hold the same view about Jesus being angel Michael. What is your take on that? |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by dolphinheart(m): 8:27pm On Apr 18, 2015 |
@ maamin This is my view on jesus and angel Micheal. Let me start by clearing away some terminologies Angel : Both the Hebrew mal·ʼakhʹ and the Greek agʹge·los literally mean “messenger.” Messenger: a person who carries a message or goes on an errand for another, especially as a matter of duty or business. In short , a messenger is a person sent to do something by another person. With the above, we can we rightfully now say that angels according to the bible are spirit(there nature) messengers of God. That they are spirit creatures who are sent by God to perform certain functions and also represent him ? Two key words from the above explanation: spirit and messenger Now is jesus a spirit in heaven? Definitely yes. Does the bible ever tell use that jesus is sent by God to deliver messages and perform certain functions ? Ill say yes to that too , why ? Cus of the following scriptures. John 6 :57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. (here jesus stated that the father sent him) John 7 :16,17 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine(teachings) is not mine, but his that sent me. (jesus stated he was sent to pass on the message of the gospel ) John 12:50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say." (jesus stated that the father told him what to say) I bet you know john 3:16 and that verse that says he came to do not his will , but Gods will. With the verses above and others not mentioned , we see jesus stating that he was sent by God to give us a message and to perform other duties such as the ransom sacrifice. Therefore I think I'm correct to say that jesus , being a spirit in heaven before coming to earth and going back is a messenger of God that gave humans special/verry important messages and duties from and for God . Analyse these with the definition of angel and come to ur own understanding. While still looking into that pls add this : Arch-angel : literally means chief agent. In the bible , it is never mentioned in plural form to signify that their is only one archangel (chief angel/oga patapata of the angels ). I believe we can also say that the Arch angel is the chief messenger of God that performs special/ verry important messages and duties for God. Now let's move on to some bible verses. Daniel 10:13: King James Bible But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. International Standard Version However, the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for 21 days. Then all of a sudden, Michael, one of the chief angels, came to assist me! I had been detained there near the kings of Persia. Daniel 10:21 New Living Translation Meanwhile, I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one helps me against these spirit princes except Michael, your spirit prince. Holman Christian Standard Bible No one has the courage to support me against them except Michael, your prince. However, I will tell you what is recorded in the book of truth. Daniel 12:1 : New International Version "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-- everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. Jude 9: King James Bible Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Rev 12:7 King James Bible And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, From this verses above we can assume the following . 1. There is order and rank among the angels . 2. Michael is the leader of the angels , hence the most powerful in rank , power and authority. 3. Micheal is the foremost of the princes(he is a prince) 4.Micheal is the prince of jehovahs people and he is always standing on their behalf(the Jews in the OT and spiritual isreal in the NT) Now let's dig further Ex 23:20,21,23 : King James Bible Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. completely destroy them. For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off. With the scriptures above , we can rightly say that an angel guided the isrealites into the promised land and stood on their behalf against the Egyptians and other more powerful nations,and that this angel is the angel of Daniels people mentioned earlier . Thus this angel is Micheal(who stands on behalf of Daniels people),who while being a prince of jehovahs people contented with Satan over moses body(Jude 9). Look at Joshua 5:13-15: When Joshua was near Jerʹi·cho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand.(similar to jesus coming to wage war against Satan on earth) . Joshua walked up to him and asked: “Are you on our side or on the side of our adversaries?” To this he said: “No, but I have come as prince of Jehovah’s army.” With that Joshua fell with his face to the ground and prostrated himself and said to him: “What does my lord have to say to his servant?” The prince of Jehovah’s army replied to Joshua: “Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy.”(similar to what an angel told moses at the burning bush) At once Joshua did so. Now let's look at who apostle paul called this powerful angel In cor 10: 1-4 paul when talking about the isrealites and their journey from Egypt said : King James Bible Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud(in reference to the angel that formed a cloud to protect and guide them during their journey), and all passed through the sea;(in reference to the miracle of dividing the red sea ) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. Now who did paul say was that spiritual rock that followed the isrealite during their journey ,that guided them and performs neccesary saving actions? what did God call the spirit person that will guide the isrealite and that they should listen to and that his name is in him ? God called that person "an angel" Pls read Mad 3:1 Ex 3 :2 Acts 7: 30:31 Have not finished yet, will try to conclude in my next post |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by dolphinheart(m): 5:46pm On Apr 19, 2015 |
@ maamin continued. (2) let's go back to Daniel. After making the first reference to Michael ( Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to “the time of the end” ( Da 11:40) and then stated: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of Daniel’s people.” ( Da 12:1) Pls note, Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” ( Da 12:1) In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. Daniel 11:2-4: King James Bible And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will. And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked uph. Daniel 11:7: King James Bible But out of a branch of her roots shall one stand up in his estate, which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress of the king of the north, and shall deal against them, and shall prevail:, even for others beside those. Daniel 11:16: King James Bible But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed. (Also pls read verse 20, 21) since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon. — Re 11:15; 16:14-16,and the book of Revelation 12:7, 10, 12 specifically mentions Michael in connection with the establishment of God’s Kingdom and links this event with trouble for the earth: “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: ‘Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down . . . On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea.’” Jesus Christ is later depicted as leading the heavenly armies in war against the nations of the earth. ( Re 19:11-16) This would mean a period of distress for them, which would logically be included in the “time of distress” that is associated with Michael’s standing up. ( Da 12:1) Since the Son of God is to fight the nations, it is only reasonable that he was the one who with his angels earlier battled against the superhuman dragon, Satan the Devil, and his angels. to be continued ...... |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by Maamin(m): 11:14pm On Apr 19, 2015 |
dolphinheart: I still feel that Jesus is different from Michael. |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by dolphinheart(m): 11:55pm On Apr 19, 2015 |
Maamin: I've not finished on my view yet Bro, will do that tomorow |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by johnw74: 3:32am On Apr 20, 2015 |
The name Michael means who is like God, which is one of the reasons I believe Michael is the Angel of the Lord. Not the Angel is the Lord, but the Angel of the Lord. The Angel of the Lord has the authority, power, and glory of the Lord when representing Him, and talks as if He is the Lord, as many scriptures show. The Angel of the Lord (I believe Michael) is sent on assignments by the Lord. Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: God gave Revelation to Jesus Christ, and what did Jesus Christ do with it? He sent it by His Angel unto John. God and the Word are God, the Angel of the Lord is the Lord's (God and the Word's) Angel, and is like God. The Word is God as John 1:1 says, the Word became Jesus Christ, John 1:14 The Word created the Angel of the Lord, He created all that exists. Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. That verse also shows that the Word is not created, nothing was made that He did not make. The Word is God as scripture says, not "a god", as jw change scripture and say. Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by Maamin(m): 8:27am On Apr 20, 2015 |
dolphinheart: Ok! |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by CAPTIVATOR: 8:36am On Apr 26, 2015 |
(after the Sunday Service). Girl : Sir, I have a question . Pastor : my daughter ... ask Girl : u said nobody can make heaven without Jesus . Pastor : Yes ... Jesus is the way #smiles# without him nobody will make it . Girl : i value Jesus too but acordin to ur sermon, u said we should follow Abraham's faith Pastor : Yes , its very essential , a good example of faith . Girl : but sir , where did Abraham go when he die , heaven or hellfire ? Pastor: A Righteous man go to heaven , he went to heaven . Girl : so our original Adamic sin didnt stop people from makin heaven ? Pastor : what do u mean ? Girl : Abraham make heaven without Jesus dyin for our sin , ar u sayin Jesus death is useless. Pastor : no , it isnt useless , he died for our sin Girl : which sin again ? Didnt Abraham and Noah make heaven without him ? Pastor : dont blaspheme the holyspirit Girl : nah! Am just askin questions. Pastor : lets leave this discussion till another time. FAULTY CHRISTIANITY |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by CAPTIVATOR: 9:29pm On May 05, 2015 |
Emusan: Next time, Just say " I dont know" |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by Emusan(m): 8:21am On May 06, 2015 |
CAPTIVATOR: These are the questions I demanded of you, Yet you say people will be saved according to their good work. since people will be saved ACCORDING TO THEIR GOOD WORK, why must Jesus come to die for SIN again? Since these people were saved through their GOOD WORK without anybody died for them, what is the essence of Jesus coming to earth if some people have already been saved by good work? Don't tell me story. |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by CAPTIVATOR: 11:15am On May 06, 2015 |
Emusan: Did Captivator ever believe people have an immortal soul that go to heaven when they die ? nah! Just face the topic and stop derailing . |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by Emusan(m): 2:05pm On May 06, 2015 |
CAPTIVATOR: Mr man the point I'm raising wasn't centered on whether some immortal soul go to heaven or not the point I'm putting to you from OP is the statement you made [size=14pt]"Faulty! ...... Its either the ghost doctrine is a LIE or Jesus Death is useless to Mankind. ONE of these two doctrines is a fabrication.[/size] The underline shows how big was the religious spectacle you put on, yet you want to remove others when you couldn't even see yours talk less of removing. Now answer my question, what is the essence of Jesus' death when people are already counted worthy by faith and their good works before His death according to your believe? |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by CAPTIVATOR: 3:22pm On May 06, 2015 |
Emusan: Emusan or what do u call urself ... If u dont have anything to contribute to the Op , Just leave the thread |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by Emusan(m): 3:25pm On May 06, 2015 |
CAPTIVATOR: So was my question outside the OP? This is the question again, what is the essence of Jesus' death when people are already counted worthy by faith and their good works before His death according to your believe? |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by CAPTIVATOR: 3:35pm On May 06, 2015 |
Emusan: #derailing# Counted worthy of what exactly ? |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by Emusan(m): 4:00pm On May 06, 2015 |
CAPTIVATOR: Let me use these your two questions to answer you here: QUESTION: WHY DID Jesus CAME TO DIE FOR OUR SINS AGAIN? AFTRALL PEOPLE ARE ALREADY GOING TO HELL ?. QUESTION: OF WHAT PURPOSE IS Jesus DEATH SINCE PEOPLE ARE MAKING HEAVEN WITHOUT HIM? These are the questions you asked from OP, the first question is a result of evil whereas the second question is a result of RIGHTEOUSNESS. I know you believe Abraham, Isaac, Jacob e.t.c live a life that different from the one Hitler, Osama e.t.c live, which then make them RIGHTEOUS AND COUNTED WORTHY before God. So what is the essence of Jesus' death if people like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob live righteous without anybody died for them? For better understanding tell me, how the WORLD benefited from Jesus' death? |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by Anas09: 5:57pm On May 06, 2015 |
I see some people assuming wat they think is true leaving the scriptures out of it. 1). JEsus is the message, not the messanger. Becos the message bearer reports, thus says the Lord, Jesus says, verily, verily 'I' say unto u. 2). The angel in charge of bearing messages is gabriael, not michael. Michael is warrior angel. Gabriael is not meant to fight, hence he was detained by demons for 21days. 3). Jesus is not angel michael. For the bible clear states in hebrews 1:1- down. God who at different times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets (jesus is not a prophet). 2. Has in this last days spoken unto us by his son whom he (god) has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds. 3. Who being the brightness of his glory, and express imageof his (god) person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purdged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high. 4. Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5. For unto which of the angels said he at any time. Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son? 6and again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he said, let all the angels worship him. 7. And of the angels, he said, who make his angels spirits and his ministers flames of fire.8. But unto the son he said, thy throne o god is for ever and ever... (Pls bear wif me, my phone won't give me upper case letters in certain places) like ayoku said, let's say what the bible says, not assume what the bible implys. I think tried to us assume stuff. Up there is what the Bible says Jesus is, or is this part not in the JW's Bible? Pls stick to the scriptures. |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by LightIndarkness: 6:56pm On May 06, 2015 |
The answer is this Jewish like to kill prophets ... see how the truth is simple So Jesus been killed the jews that a fact ... and he is not the only prophet been cross Check out Mathew 23 Therefore, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers of religious law. But you will kill some by crucifixion, and you will flog others with whips in your synagogues, chasing them from city to city |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by CAPTIVATOR: 8:23am On May 09, 2015 |
Emusan: I ask a question " counted worthy of what exactly ?" u replied " let me answer you with ur two QUESTIONS at op" . Replyin question with question .... Just admit u dont know |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by Emusan(m): 6:36pm On May 09, 2015 |
CAPTIVATOR: I don't know you people's problem. Wasn't Abraham, Isaac & Jacob counted worthy of RIGHTEOUSNESS? What I put up there is enough for an intelligent being to decipher. Beside don't dodge my question too, For better understanding tell me, how the WORLD benefited from Jesus' death? |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by CAPTIVATOR: 11:40pm On May 09, 2015 |
Emusan: " all of these, although they receive a favourable witness because of their faith , did not obtain the fulfilment of the promise" - Heb 11:39
Anyway Thats ur homework, if it was an humble person that asked , I would have gave the answer .. NOT YOU . Peace ! |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by LightIndarkness: 11:47pm On May 09, 2015 |
CAPTIVATOR: I will tell you this Jesus been killed by Jewish thats all And why he been killed Because He Ignored the Jewish Messaih Zorobabel The Messaih Review Haggai 2:20 23 So Yehweh decide that Zorobabel is The Messaih Son of God And Jesus Ignored this Jewish killed him THE END |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by Emusan(m): 12:12am On May 10, 2015 |
CAPTIVATOR: So which fulfillment of promise they did not obtain? Anyway Thats ur homework, if it was an humble person that asked , I would have gave the answer .. NOT YOU . But you can reply the rest of my post...mtcheeeee Again, how does the world benefit from Jesus' death? |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by Nobody: 9:07am On May 10, 2015 |
ayoku777: You're right, with this as a backup. Matthew 27:50-53New International Version (NIV) 50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people. |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by Nobody: 9:23am On May 10, 2015 |
ayoku777: But sir, what about all this people that claim they saw Michael Jackson, Pope and other in hell, what really happened? |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by otr1(m): 11:06am On May 10, 2015 |
dolphinheart:Ecclesiastes 12:7 ...'Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.' No one is in hell/heaven for now. If you die, you remain dead until the last day. |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by otr1(m): 11:23am On May 10, 2015 |
Acts 2:29,34 ...'Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, thathe is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day ... ForDavid didnotascend into the heavens |
Re: The Faulty Christianity by Orunto: 12:03pm On May 10, 2015 |
AIDS IS REAL! HELL IS REAL! BOKOHARAM, ATHEIST AND IGNORANCE IS HELL!!!! |
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