Maamin:




The soul and the spirit are not the same

I used it interchangeably as used in the bible. Even though our Bible uses the words soul and spirit interchangeably, there is a very distinct difference that we cannot ignore. These passages in God's Word that make a very clear distinction between the soul and the spirit:

Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

1 Thessalonians 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Here the bible made it known that the Spirit,soul and Body are distinct from each other.

The moment we accept Christ, our spirits become brand new. We are a completely new person, we are born of God, and we are made alive with God:

2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

This is speaking of our spirits, which are instantly made new the moment we accept Christ.

The Bible even tells us that the old man in us has died with Christ, and that we are raised to new life through Christ's resurrection:

Romans 6:2-6, "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him (our spirits that were alive to sin), that the body of sin might be destroyed (speaking of the evil in our souls), that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Even though we have died to sin, and been raised to new life through Christ Jesus, our souls (that is, our minds) still need to be transformed and purified by the washing of the Word:

Ephesians 5:26, "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word."

Our souls are NOT born again!

The Bible is clear that even though our spirits are born of incorruptible seed, our minds (souls) still need to be purified, that is, cleansed:

1 Peter 1:22-23, "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever."

Our spirit is instantly reborn and made new the moment we accept Christ, but the soul is not born again. Our souls are transformed by the renewing of our minds:

Romans 12:2, "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Some closing thoughts

Our spirits are made right with God, and raised to new life the moment we accept Jesus, but our souls (minds) can carry much spiritual grime and dirt over from our past lifestyles. Our souls are transformed by the renewing of our minds and by the washing of the Word, as the Bible makes clear. This is why so many believers can continue to struggle with sin even after accepting Christ. Their souls still contain grime and dirt that needs to be removed and washed clean.




How do you reconcile this with Jesus parable of the rich man and Lazarus?

These Christian sects believe that at death that awareness ceases until the resurrection. This belief fundamentally changes the theology around heaven, hell as well as reincarnation. The biblical authority quoted to support the belief is rather slim. In fact there is really only one scripture quoted. It is in Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (KJV)

You can't get plainer than that. The Dead know nothing. End of story. However, there are plenty of scriptures in both the old and New Testament that show that the dead are aware after death. Is this an example of Biblical contradiction? Not really. this statement wasn't made by a prophet of God nor was is it a quote from God through an angel or prophet. It is the musings of King Solomon while being depressed. It is a rhetorical remark made by a man who cried "vanities of vanities all is vanities." He admits to drinking in excess, having a thousand wives and concubines and having every luxury imaginable yet ultimately found his life unfulfilling. He even concludes at the end of his writings...

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. NIV.

In 1 Samuel 28 we have the story of Saul secretly going to the witch of Endor so that he could contact the spirit of the dead prophet Samuel. This of course is a forbidden art, not because it can't be done but that it is evil to contact the spirits of the dead using witchcraft. Despite the wickedness involved, Saul has the witch do the divination necessary to contact Samuel. Samuel is summoned and has the following words for Saul.

15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do." 16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors-to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."

If you read further in the story, the prophecy of the dead prophet turned out exactly as predicted. This shows us that the prophet Samuel was aware after death and was in contact with God even during death. Also Over a thousand years after the death of King Solomon, the Apostle John jouneyed to heaven in a vision and saw souls being aware they were dead. Specifically Revelations 6:9

"9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed."

In John's version he sees souls in heaven aware enough to know they were awaiting a new life with Christ.



Luke 16:19-31 (NIV)

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In [HADES] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30 " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Both Lazarus and the rich man were aware after death. Both were in Hades (Called Sheol in the Old Testament). One was with Abraham in the good part of Hades and the Rich man was in the bad part of Hades. The important point is that after death they did not cease to be aware. Death is simply the separation of the spirit from the body. Death is not completely non-awareness. I might be wrong tho!




Finally I got the jeck..with this site "http://biblelight.net/death.htm" it explain with great number of bible verses..i think your stands in the state of the dead is correct. Take your time to go through it.





I never said anyone goes to heaven immediately after death.

Anyways the link to a sight I posted up there throws more light on the state of the dead. Thanks for your time have really learnt a great deal.

Ok Bro, thanks, but if there is any issue you still like us to discuss, I'm free o .

dolphinheart:


Ok Bro, thanks, but if there is any issue you still like us to discuss, I'm free o .

Thanks a lot, trust me I will mention you if there is any issue. May be you might like to check on this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/2239564/jehova-witnesses-want-join-church/2#32836019

Maamin:


Thanks a lot, trust me I will mention you if there is any issue. May be you might like to check on this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/2239564/jehova-witnesses-want-join-church/2#32836019

I have seen the thread , but I viewed that the op was just looking for a way to argue and not discuss, he has been told what to do and the website to go to if he really wants to find answers to his question and become a jw.

But if you want my view on the issues raised by the op, I can post it on this thread for you to go through .

ayoku777:


You're the one getting it wrong.

Until Jesus died for our sins and rose for our justification; everyone who died went straight to hell (sheol -the place of the dead). Everyone; including Abraham, David, Samuel, etc.

Except for Enoch and Elijah, who God whisked away before death could come for them; everyone who died went to hell (sheol).

No one was righteous enough for eternal life or for heaven until Jesus died and rose and gave us His righteousness.

1Samuel 28v13 -And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

This was when Saul went to the witch of Endor for her to help him conjur the spirit of Samuel the prophet.

Notice that the spirit of samuel was ascending out of the earth. meaning that, even Samuel, the prophet of the Lord descended into sheol when he died.

And hear what Samuel said unto Saul;

1Samuel 28v19 -Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hands of the philistines: and tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons BE WITH ME:

Here was Samuel, a good man and the Lord's prophet; telling Saul, the evil king rejected by God; that by tomorrow, Saul and his sons will be with him (Samuel).

Meaning that, both the good and the evil went to the same place after death -Hell or Sheol.

Its clear however, from Christ's account of the rich man and Lazarus, that those who did good and pleased God relatively in their lifetime did not stay in the torment side of sheol. But they were in Hell (sheol) all the same.

Both Abraham and Lazarus and the rich went to hell (sheol); but Abraham and Lazarus were not in the torment side. But they were all in hell.

No one was righteous enough for eternal life or for heaven until Jesus came and gave us His righteous. Both the good and the evil went to sheol until Jesus came.

God bless you.

Good answer.

dolphinheart:



I have seen the thread , but I viewed that the op was just looking for a way to argue and not discuss, he has been told what to do and the website to go to if he really wants to find answers to his question and become a jw.

But if you want my view on the issues raised by the op, I can post it on this thread for you to go through .

Yea! So many evidence...but is like the seven day adventist too hold the same view about Jesus being angel Michael.

What is your take on that?

@ maamin
This is my view on jesus and angel Micheal.

Let me start by clearing away some terminologies

Angel : Both the Hebrew mal·ʼakhʹ and the Greek agʹge·los literally mean “messenger.”

Messenger: a person who carries a message or goes on an errand for another, especially as a matter of duty or business.
In short , a messenger is a person sent to do something by another person.
With the above, we can we rightfully now say that angels according to the bible are spirit(there nature) messengers of God. That they are spirit creatures who are sent by God to perform certain functions and also represent him ?
Two key words from the above explanation: spirit and messenger

Now is jesus a spirit in heaven? Definitely yes.

Does the bible ever tell use that jesus is sent by God to deliver messages and perform certain functions ? Ill say yes to that too , why ? Cus of the following scriptures.

John 6 :57
As the living Father hath sent
me, and I live by the Father: so
he that eateth me, even he
shall live by me.
(here jesus stated that the father sent him)


John 7 :16,17
Jesus answered them, and
said, My doctrine(teachings) is not mine, but his that sent me.
(jesus stated he was sent to pass on the message of the gospel )

John 12:50
I know that his command
leads to eternal life. So
whatever I say is just what the
Father has told me to say."
(jesus stated that the father told him what to say)

I bet you know john 3:16 and that verse that says he came to do not his will , but Gods will.

With the verses above and others not mentioned , we see jesus stating that he was sent by God to give us a message and to perform other duties such as the ransom sacrifice.

Therefore I think I'm correct to say that jesus , being a spirit in heaven before coming to earth and going back is a messenger of God that gave humans special/verry important messages and duties from and for God .

Analyse these with the definition of angel and come to ur own understanding.


While still looking into that pls add this :

Arch-angel : literally means chief agent. In the bible , it is never mentioned in plural form to signify that their is only one archangel (chief angel/oga patapata of the angels ).
I believe we can also say that the Arch angel is the chief messenger of God that performs special/ verry important messages and duties for God.


Now let's move on to some bible verses.

Daniel 10:13:
King James Bible
But the prince of the kingdom
of Persia withstood me one
and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and
I remained there with the kings
of Persia.

International Standard
Version
However, the prince of the
kingdom of Persia opposed
me for 21 days. Then all of a
sudden, Michael, one of the
chief angels, came to assist
me! I had been detained there
near the kings of Persia.


Daniel 10:21
New Living Translation
Meanwhile, I will tell you what
is written in the Book of Truth.
(No one helps me against these spirit princes except
Michael, your spirit prince.

Holman Christian Standard
Bible
No one has the courage to
support me against them
except Michael, your prince.
However, I will tell you what is
recorded in the book of truth.


Daniel 12:1 :
New International Version
"At that time Michael, the great
prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be
a time of distress such as has
not happened from the beginning of nations until then.
But at that time your people--
everyone whose name is found written in the book--will
be delivered.

Jude 9:
King James Bible
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil
he disputed about the body of
Moses, durst not bring against
him a railing accusation, but
said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Rev 12:7
King James Bible
And there was war in heaven:
Michael and his angels fought
against the dragon; and the
dragon fought and his angels,

From this verses above we can assume the following .
1. There is order and rank among the angels .
2. Michael is the leader of the angels , hence the most powerful in rank , power and authority.
3. Micheal is the foremost of the princes(he is a prince)

4.Micheal is the prince of jehovahs people and he is always standing on their behalf(the Jews in the OT and spiritual isreal in the NT)


Now let's dig further

Ex 23:20,21,23 :
King James Bible
Behold, I send an Angel before
thee, to keep thee in the way,
and to bring thee into the place
which I have prepared.
Beware of him, and obey his
voice, provoke him not; for he
will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is
in him.
completely destroy them.
For mine Angel shall go before
thee, and bring thee in unto
the Amorites, and the Hittites,
and the Perizzites, and the
Canaanites, and the Hivites,
and the Jebusites: and I will
cut them off.

With the scriptures above , we can rightly say that an angel guided the isrealites into the promised land and stood on their behalf against the Egyptians and other more powerful nations,and that this angel is the angel of Daniels people mentioned earlier . Thus this angel is Micheal(who stands on behalf of Daniels people),who while being a prince of jehovahs people contented with Satan over moses body(Jude 9).

Look at Joshua 5:13-15:
When Joshua was near
Jerʹi·cho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand.(similar to jesus coming to wage war against Satan on earth) .
Joshua walked up to him and
asked: “Are you on our side or
on the side of our adversaries?”
To this he said: “No, but I have come as prince of Jehovah’s army.” With that Joshua fell with his face to the ground and prostrated himself and said to him: “What does my lord have to say to his servant?”
The prince of Jehovah’s
army replied to Joshua:
“Remove your sandals from
your feet, because the place
where you are standing is holy.”(similar to what an angel told moses at the burning bush)
At once Joshua did so.

Now let's look at who apostle paul called this powerful angel

In cor 10: 1-4 paul when talking about the isrealites and their journey from Egypt said :

King James Bible
Moreover, brethren, I would
not that ye should be ignorant,
how that all our fathers were
under the cloud(in reference to the angel that formed a cloud to protect and guide them during their journey), and all
passed through the sea;(in reference to the miracle of dividing the red sea ) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
And did all drink the same
spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that
followed them: and that Rock
was Christ.

Now who did paul say was that spiritual rock that followed the isrealite during their journey ,that guided them and performs neccesary saving actions?

what did God call the spirit person that will guide the isrealite and that they should listen to and that his name is in him ? God called that person "an angel"

Pls read

Mad 3:1
Ex 3 :2
Acts 7: 30:31

Have not finished yet, will try to conclude in my next post

@ maamin

continued.
(2)
let's go back to Daniel.
After making the first reference
to Michael ( Da 10:13),
recorded a prophecy
reaching down to “the time of
the end” ( Da 11:40) and then
stated: “And during that time
Michael will stand up, the great
prince who is standing in behalf
of the sons of Daniel’s
people.” ( Da 12:1)
Pls note, Michael’s ‘standing up’
was to be associated with “a
time of distress such as has not
been made to occur since there
came to be a nation until that
time.” ( Da 12:1)
In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing
up’ frequently refers to the
action of a king, either taking up
his royal power or acting
effectively in his capacity as
king.
Daniel 11:2-4:
King James Bible
And now will I shew thee the
truth. Behold, there shall stand
up yet three kings in Persia;
and the fourth shall be far
richer than they all: and by his
strength through his riches he
shall stir up all against the
realm of Grecia.
And a mighty king shall stand
up, that shall rule with great
dominion, and do according to
his will.
And when he shall stand up,
his kingdom shall be broken,
and shall be divided toward the
four winds of heaven; and not to
his posterity, nor according to
his dominion which he ruled: for
his kingdom shall be plucked
uph.
Daniel 11:7:
King James Bible
But out of a branch of her
roots shall one stand up in his
estate, which shall come with
an army, and shall enter into
the fortress of the king of the
north, and shall deal against
them, and shall prevail:, even
for others beside those.
Daniel 11:16:
King James Bible
But he that cometh against him
shall do according to his own
will, and none shall stand
before him: and he shall stand
in the glorious land, which by
his hand shall be consumed.
(Also pls read verse 20, 21)
since Jesus is Jehovah’s
appointed King, commissioned
to destroy all the nations at
Har–Magedon. — Re 11:15;
16:14-16,and the book of
Revelation 12:7, 10, 12
specifically mentions Michael in
connection with the
establishment of God’s
Kingdom and links this event
with trouble for the earth: “And
war broke out in heaven:
Michael and his angels battled
with the dragon, and the dragon
and its angels battled. And I
heard a loud voice in heaven
say: ‘Now have come to pass
the salvation and the power and
the kingdom of our God and the
authority of his Christ, because
the accuser of our brothers has
been hurled down . . . On this
account be glad, you heavens
and you who reside in them!
Woe for the earth and for the
sea.’”
Jesus Christ is later
depicted as leading the
heavenly armies in war against
the nations of the earth. ( Re
19:11-16) This would mean a
period of distress for them,
which would logically be
included in the “time of distress”
that is associated with
Michael’s standing up. ( Da
12:1) Since the Son of God is to
fight the nations, it is only
reasonable that he was the one
who with his angels earlier
battled against the superhuman
dragon, Satan the
Devil, and his angels.

to be continued ......

dolphinheart:
@ maamin

continued.
(2)
let's go back to Daniel.
After making the first reference
to Michael ( Da 10:13),
recorded a prophecy
reaching down to “the time of
the end” ( Da 11:40) and then
stated: “And during that time
Michael will stand up, the great
prince who is standing in behalf
of the sons of Daniel’s
people.” ( Da 12:1)
Pls note, Michael’s ‘standing up’
was to be associated with “a
time of distress such as has not
been made to occur since there
came to be a nation until that
time.” ( Da 12:1)
In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing
up’ frequently refers to the
action of a king, either taking up
his royal power or acting
effectively in his capacity as
king.
Daniel 11:2-4:
King James Bible
And now will I shew thee the
truth. Behold, there shall stand
up yet three kings in Persia;
and the fourth shall be far
richer than they all: and by his
strength through his riches he
shall stir up all against the
realm of Grecia.
And a mighty king shall stand
up, that shall rule with great
dominion, and do according to
his will.
And when he shall stand up,
his kingdom shall be broken,
and shall be divided toward the
four winds of heaven; and not to
his posterity, nor according to
his dominion which he ruled: for
his kingdom shall be plucked
uph.
Daniel 11:7:
King James Bible
But out of a branch of her
roots shall one stand up in his
estate, which shall come with
an army, and shall enter into
the fortress of the king of the
north, and shall deal against
them, and shall prevail:, even
for others beside those.
Daniel 11:16:
King James Bible
But he that cometh against him
shall do according to his own
will, and none shall stand
before him: and he shall stand
in the glorious land, which by
his hand shall be consumed.
(Also pls read verse 20, 21)
since Jesus is Jehovah’s
appointed King, commissioned
to destroy all the nations at
Har–Magedon. — Re 11:15;
16:14-16,and the book of
Revelation 12:7, 10, 12
specifically mentions Michael in
connection with the
establishment of God’s
Kingdom and links this event
with trouble for the earth: “And
war broke out in heaven:
Michael and his angels battled
with the dragon, and the dragon
and its angels battled. And I
heard a loud voice in heaven
say: ‘Now have come to pass
the salvation and the power and
the kingdom of our God and the
authority of his Christ, because
the accuser of our brothers has
been hurled down . . . On this
account be glad, you heavens
and you who reside in them!
Woe for the earth and for the
sea.’”
Jesus Christ is later
depicted as leading the
heavenly armies in war against
the nations of the earth. ( Re
19:11-16) This would mean a
period of distress for them,
which would logically be
included in the “time of distress”
that is associated with
Michael’s standing up. ( Da
12:1) Since the Son of God is to
fight the nations, it is only
reasonable that he was the one
who with his angels earlier
battled against the superhuman
dragon, Satan the
Devil, and his angels.

to be continued ......

I still feel that Jesus is different from Michael.

Maamin:


I still feel that Jesus is different from Michael.

I've not finished on my view yet Bro, will do that tomorow

The name Michael means who is like God,
which is one of the reasons I believe Michael is the Angel of the Lord.
Not the Angel is the Lord, but the Angel of the Lord.



The Angel of the Lord has the authority, power, and glory of the Lord when representing Him, and talks as if He is the Lord, as many scriptures show.


The Angel of the Lord (I believe Michael) is sent on assignments by the Lord.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

God gave Revelation to Jesus Christ,
and what did Jesus Christ do with it?
He sent it by His Angel unto John.

God and the Word are God,
the Angel of the Lord is the Lord's (God and the Word's) Angel,
and is like God.

The Word is God as John 1:1 says,
the Word became Jesus Christ, John 1:14

The Word created the Angel of the Lord, He created all that exists.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

That verse also shows that the Word is not created, nothing was made that He did not make.
The Word is God as scripture says, not "a god", as jw change scripture and say.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

dolphinheart:


I've not finished on my view yet Bro, will do that tomorow

Ok!

(after the Sunday Service).
Girl : Sir, I have a question .

Pastor : my daughter ... ask

Girl : u said nobody can make heaven without Jesus .

Pastor : Yes ... Jesus is the way #smiles# without him nobody will make it .

Girl : i value Jesus too but acordin to ur sermon, u said we should follow Abraham's faith

Pastor : Yes , its very essential , a good example of faith .

Girl : but sir , where did Abraham go when he die , heaven or hellfire ?

Pastor: A Righteous man go to heaven , he went to heaven .

Girl : so our original Adamic sin didnt stop people from makin heaven ?

Pastor : what do u mean ?

Girl : Abraham make heaven without Jesus dyin for our sin , ar u sayin Jesus death is useless.

Pastor : no , it isnt useless , he died for our sin

Girl : which sin again ? Didnt Abraham and Noah make heaven without him ?

Pastor : dont blaspheme the holyspirit

Girl : nah! Am just askin questions.

Pastor : lets leave this discussion till another time.

FAULTY CHRISTIANITY

Emusan:
The evidence that you don't ponder over your statement before creating this thread is too obvious.



Are you a professed Christian or not?



Is it that "human are said to..." or what the scriptures say?



Why must you accept? Then see how what you accepted stands against you.

Have you removed the religious spectacle in yours first?


Show me where you read this in the Bible?
Yet you says people will be saved according to their good work. since people will be saved ACCORDING TO THEIR GOOD WORK, why must Jesus come to die for SIN again?

Since these people were saved through their GOOD WORK without anybody died for them, what is the essence of Jesus coming to earth if we people have already been saved by good work?

I can't stop laughing at your ignorance,
Of what purpose is the death of Jesus since your good work can save you?

Just consider how ridicule your questions sound.

Next time, Just say " I dont know"

CAPTIVATOR:


Next time, Just say " I dont know"

These are the questions I demanded of you,

Yet you say people will be saved according to their good work. since people will be saved ACCORDING TO THEIR GOOD WORK, why must Jesus come to die for SIN again?

Since these people were saved through their GOOD WORK without anybody died for them, what is the essence of Jesus coming to earth if some people have already been saved by good work?

Don't tell me story.

Emusan:



[s]

These are the questions I demanded of you,


Yet you say people will be saved according to their good work. since people will be saved ACCORDING TO THEIR GOOD WORK, why must Jesus come to die for SIN again?

Since these people were saved through their GOOD WORK without anybody died for them, what is the essence of Jesus coming to earth if some people have already been saved by good work?



Don't tell me story. [/s]

Did Captivator ever believe people have an immortal soul that go to heaven when they die ? nah!

Just face the topic and stop derailing .

CAPTIVATOR:
Did Captivator ever believe people have an immortal soul that go to heaven when they die ? nah!

Just face the topic and stop derailing.

Mr man the point I'm raising wasn't centered on whether some immortal soul go to heaven or not the point I'm putting to you from OP is the statement you made [size=14pt]"Faulty! ...... Its either the ghost doctrine is a LIE or Jesus Death is useless to Mankind. ONE of these two doctrines is a fabrication.[/size]

The underline shows how big was the religious spectacle you put on, yet you want to remove others when you couldn't even see yours talk less of removing.

Now answer my question, what is the essence of Jesus' death when people are already counted worthy by faith and their good works before His death according to your believe?

Emusan:


Mr man the point I'm raising wasn't centered on whether some immortal soul go to heaven or not the point I'm putting to you from OP is the statement you made [size=14pt]"Faulty! ...... Its either the ghost doctrine is a LIE or Jesus Death is useless to Mankind. ONE of these two doctrines is a fabrication.[/size]

The underline shows how big was the religious spectacle you put on, yet you want to remove others when you couldn't even see yours talk less of removing.

Now answer my question, what is the essence of Jesus' death when people are already counted worthy by faith and their good works before His death according to your believe?

Emusan or what do u call urself ... If u dont have anything to contribute to the Op , Just leave the thread

CAPTIVATOR:
Emusan or what do u call urself ... If u dont have anything to contribute to the Op , Just leave the thread

So was my question outside the OP?

This is the question again, what is the essence of Jesus' death when people are already counted worthy by faith and their good works before His death according to your believe?

Emusan:


So was my question outside the OP?

This is the question again, what is the essence of Jesus' death when people are already counted worthy by faith and their good works before His death according to your believe?

#derailing#
Counted worthy of what exactly ?

CAPTIVATOR:

#derailing#
Counted worthy of what exactly ?

Let me use these your two questions to answer you here:

QUESTION: WHY DID Jesus CAME TO DIE FOR OUR SINS AGAIN? AFTRALL PEOPLE ARE ALREADY GOING TO HELL ?.

QUESTION: OF WHAT PURPOSE IS Jesus DEATH SINCE PEOPLE ARE MAKING HEAVEN WITHOUT HIM?

These are the questions you asked from OP, the first question is a result of evil whereas the second question is a result of RIGHTEOUSNESS.

I know you believe Abraham, Isaac, Jacob e.t.c live a life that different from the one Hitler, Osama e.t.c live, which then make them RIGHTEOUS AND COUNTED WORTHY before God.

So what is the essence of Jesus' death if people like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob live righteous without anybody died for them?

For better understanding tell me, how the WORLD benefited from Jesus' death?

I see some people assuming wat they think is true leaving the scriptures out of it. 1). JEsus is the message, not the messanger. Becos the message bearer reports, thus says the Lord, Jesus says, verily, verily 'I' say unto u. 2). The angel in charge of bearing messages is gabriael, not michael. Michael is warrior angel. Gabriael is not meant to fight, hence he was detained by demons for 21days. 3). Jesus is not angel michael. For the bible clear states in hebrews 1:1- down. God who at different times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets (jesus is not a prophet). 2. Has in this last days spoken unto us by his son whom he (god) has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds. 3. Who being the brightness of his glory, and express imageof his (god) person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purdged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high. 4. Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5. For unto which of the angels said he at any time. Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son? 6and again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he said, let all the angels worship him. 7. And of the angels, he said, who make his angels spirits and his ministers flames of fire.8. But unto the son he said, thy throne o god is for ever and ever... (Pls bear wif me, my phone won't give me upper case letters in certain places) like ayoku said, let's say what the bible says, not assume what the bible implys. I think tried to us assume stuff. Up there is what the Bible says Jesus is, or is this part not in the JW's Bible? Pls stick to the scriptures.

The answer is this

Jewish like to kill prophets ... see how the truth is simple

So Jesus been killed the jews that a fact ... and he is not the only prophet been cross

Check out

Mathew 23

Therefore, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers of religious law. But you will kill some by crucifixion, and you will flog others with whips in your synagogues, chasing them from city to city

Emusan:


Let me use these your two questions to answer you here:

QUESTION: WHY DID Jesus CAME TO DIE FOR OUR SINS AGAIN? AFTRALL PEOPLE ARE ALREADY GOING TO HELL ?.

QUESTION: OF WHAT PURPOSE IS Jesus DEATH SINCE PEOPLE ARE MAKING HEAVEN WITHOUT HIM?

These are the questions you asked from OP, the first question is a result of evil whereas the second question is a result of RIGHTEOUSNESS.

I know you believe Abraham, Isaac, Jacob e.t.c live a life that different from the one Hitler, Osama e.t.c live, which then make them RIGHTEOUS AND COUNTED WORTHY before God.

So what is the essence of Jesus' death if people like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob live righteous without anybody died for them?

For better understanding tell me, how the WORLD benefited from Jesus' death?

I ask a question " counted worthy of what exactly ?" u replied " let me answer you with ur two QUESTIONS at op" .

Replyin question with question ....
Just admit u dont know

CAPTIVATOR:
I ask a question " counted worthy of what exactly ?" u replied " let me answer you with ur two QUESTIONS at op".

Replyin question with question ....
Just admit u dont know

I don't know you people's problem.

Wasn't Abraham, Isaac & Jacob counted worthy of RIGHTEOUSNESS? What I put up there is enough for an intelligent being to decipher.

Beside don't dodge my question too, For better understanding tell me, how the WORLD benefited from Jesus' death?

Emusan:


I don't know you people's problem.

Wasn't Abraham, Isaac & Jacob counted worthy of RIGHTEOUSNESS? What I put up there is enough for an intelligent being to decipher.

" all of these, although they receive a favourable witness because of their faith , did not obtain the fulfilment of the promise"
- Heb 11:39

Beside don't dodge my question too, For better understanding tell me, how the WORLD benefited from Jesus' death?

Anyway Thats ur homework, if it was an humble person that asked , I would have gave the answer .. NOT YOU .

Peace !

CAPTIVATOR:
Am calling on you professed christians to come out and defend urselves .

While I was a kid, I was made to bliv that ALL righteous persons go to heaven while the sinners go to hellfire ! This is made possible because humans are said to possess a ghost within them .

BUT THE FAULTY CHRISTIANITY will still tell u that Jesus died for your sins , accepted ... My reader , there is a problem here If u dont see it, I will help u remove that religious spectacle .

Goliath, philistines , sons of Amon, Sons Of Edom and many other countries that are not isrealite WORSHIP IDOLS and thus when they die they will be judged and will go to hellfire

QUESTION: WHY DID JESUS CAME TO DIE FOR OUR SINS AGAIN ? AFTRALL PEOPLE ARE ALREADY GOING TO HELL ?.

ON the other hand ... Abraham , Noah, noahs three sons and their wives , Sarah, Abigeal , Jonathan son of Saul are good people , when they died they have go to heaven.

QUESTION: OF WHAT PURPOSE IS JESUS DEATH SINCE PEOPLE ARE MAKING HEAVEN WITHOUT HIM ?

Faulty! ...... Its either the ghost doctrine is a LIE or Jesus Death is useless to Mankind . ONE of these two doctrines is a fabrication .

The question is which ?

I will tell you this Jesus been killed by Jewish thats all
And why he been killed Because He Ignored the Jewish Messaih
Zorobabel The Messaih

Review Haggai 2:20 23
So Yehweh decide that Zorobabel is The Messaih Son of God
And Jesus Ignored this Jewish killed him

THE END

CAPTIVATOR:
" all of these, although they receive a favourable witness because of their faith , did not obtain the fulfilment of the promise" - Heb 11:39

So which fulfillment of promise they did not obtain?

Anyway Thats ur homework, if it was an humble person that asked , I would have gave the answer .. NOT YOU .

Peace !

But you can reply the rest of my post...mtcheeeee

Again, how does the world benefit from Jesus' death?

ayoku777:


You're the one getting it wrong.

Until Jesus died for our sins and rose for our justification; everyone who died went straight to hell (sheol -the place of the dead). Everyone; including Abraham, David, Samuel, etc.

Except for Enoch and Elijah, who God whisked away before death could come for them; everyone who died went to hell (sheol).

No one was righteous enough for eternal life or for heaven until Jesus died and rose and gave us His righteousness.

1Samuel 28v13 -And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

This was when Saul went to the witch of Endor for her to help him conjur the spirit of Samuel the prophet.

Notice that the spirit of samuel was ascending out of the earth. meaning that, even Samuel, the prophet of the Lord descended into sheol when he died.

And hear what Samuel said unto Saul;

1Samuel 28v19 -Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hands of the philistines: and tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons BE WITH ME:

Here was Samuel, a good man and the Lord's prophet; telling Saul, the evil king rejected by God; that by tomorrow, Saul and his sons will be with him (Samuel).

Meaning that, both the good and the evil went to the same place after death -Hell or Sheol.

Its clear however, from Christ's account of the rich man and Lazarus, that those who did good and pleased God relatively in their lifetime did not stay in the torment side of sheol. But they were in Hell (sheol) all the same.

Both Abraham and Lazarus and the rich went to hell (sheol); but Abraham and Lazarus were not in the torment side. But they were all in hell.

No one was righteous enough for eternal life or for heaven until Jesus came and gave us His righteous. Both the good and the evil went to sheol until Jesus came.

God bless you.

You're right, with this as a backup.


Matthew 27:50-53New International Version (NIV)

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

ayoku777:


Nope; that's not true.

Kehver - hebrew for grave, sepulchre, tomb

Sheol - hebrew for the place of the dead.

Mnemeion - greek for grave, tomb, sepulchre

Hades - greek for the place of the dead.

Kehver and mnemeion mean grave, sepulchre and tomb in hebrew and greek respectively

And Sheol and Hades mean place of the dead in hebrew and greek respectively.

Gehenna is place of torment and final destruction; it is also the place called the "Lake of fire".

No one is in gehenna yet. People enter gehenna with their soul and bodies. Only souls go to hades.

Matthew 5v29 -...for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that THY WHOLE BODY should be cast into hell (gehenna).

Matthew 10v28 -...but rather fear Him which is able to destroy BOTH SOUL AND BODY in hell (gehenna).

Both soul and bodies go to gehenna (or lake of fire), but only souls go to hades (or sheol)

Only the soul of Jesus went to hades or sheol (hell) while His body was in mneneion (grave)

Psalms 16v10 - Because thou wilt not leave MY SOUL IN HELL (sheol), neither suffer thine Holy one to see corruption.

Acts 2v27 - Because thou wilt not leave MY SOUL IN HELL (hades), neither suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Notice sheol in hebrew is hades in greek. The soul of Jesus went to sheol or hades to preach to the spirits in prison. Meaning sheol is not grave (kehver); it is the place of the dead.

Also, the rich man in the parable of Jesus was being tormented in hades.

Luke 16v23 - And in hell (hades) he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bossom.

Its like this:

Mnemeion and kehver mean the same thing -grave and sepulchre.

Sheol and hades mean the same thing -place of the dead.

Gehenna and lake of fire are the same place -place of eternal torment.

But sir, what about all this people that claim they saw Michael Jackson, Pope and other in hell, what really happened?

dolphinheart:
@ ayoku777 and maamin

Questions
1. What does the bible say happens to us when we die/when we go to sheol.

2.(a)does our creature tell us what we(man/men) are?
(b) Let's say the bible teaches us that man is made of three different parts, which one goes to hell, which one does not and where do the rest go .

3. If people where in the good and bad side of hell, does it not mean they have been judged already? Why the judgement later. Cus if I die and I'm being put in one side cus of my actions on earth , ill definitely assume I've been judged guilty or righteous before my trial , abi no be so . ?

4. What is ressurection?

5 where is moses, David and all loyal servants of God that lived before jesus at this moment.

6.(a) Does if not mean that humans can enter heaven without jesus dying for us if we believe that elijah and enoch went to heaven ?
(b) if elijah and enoch could make it to heaven, there will be no need of sacrifice cus that means can be used by all to enter heaven right ?

7. Does elijah and enoch being in heaven not make jesus a liar when he said that "no one has ascended unto heaven ?

8 does the bible give us an idea that enoch died? And does it make mention of elijah being active as a prophet on earth after the chariot incident?

Other questions might come up later, but you can help to answer these questions for now. And pls add scriptural references to ur answers .

Ecclesiastes 12:7 ...'Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.'
No one is in hell/heaven for now. If you die, you remain dead until the last day.

Acts 2:29,34 ...'Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, thathe is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day ... ForDavid didnotascend into the heavens

AIDS IS REAL! HELL IS REAL! BOKOHARAM, ATHEIST AND IGNORANCE IS HELL!!!!