Nihilist:


Nobody is arguing that.

I never said that Black people don't have technique.

My point was simple....Even in countries where there is a reasonably close distribution of Blacks and Whites, Black players tend play specific roles on the pitch. Defenders, wingers, Enforcers and Big Strikers.

That's why I listed all those countries where they have several black players, and all are more or less the same thing.

That's why I asked where the Black Pirlo, Ozil, Xavi or Inietsa is. Where is the black Carrick? or the Black Fabregas? Black Silva? Black Cazorla? Black KDB? You cannot see these players cos they dont exist.

How about Goalkeepers? How many Black Goalkeepers are there regularly starting in the EPL?


Read this article and see what I'm saying
https://sports.vice.com/en_uk/article/do-football-managers-pigeonhole-black-players

An extract:

May be we are being marginalized. Mikel was the most creative player of his age, if he were white, they would have created an attacking space for him. But on getting to Chelsea he was converted to a DM to learn to play like Makalele and Essien.

If he were Spanish or German or English, legends would have brought out their daggers against a brainless coach killing 'the most latent talent in the history of football.

Also, big clubs trust more European goalkeepers. Manchester United would rather play Ben Foster rather than buy Enyeama as a back to. All the Thomas Ukonos, Rufai, Shoronmu never played for big clubs. Roger Miller and Henry Nwosu were some of the most creative players, which club did they play for?

In a nutshell, African/black players are mostly needed to cover for the less competitive or less glamorous positions in football.

elampiro:


May be we are being marginalized. Mikel was the most creative player of his age, if he were white, they would have created an attacking space for him. But on getting to Chelsea he was converted to a DM to learn to play like Makalele and Essien.

If he were Spanish or German or English, legends would have brought out their daggers against a brainless coach killing 'the most latent talent in the history of football.

Also, big clubs trust more European goalkeepers. Manchester United would rather play Ben Foster rather than buy Enyeama as a back to. All the Thomas Ukonos, Rufai, Shoronmu never played for big clubs. Roger Miller and Henry Nwosu were some of the most creative players, which club did they play for?

In a nutshell, African/black players are mostly needed to cover for the less competitive or less glamorous positions in football.

Or maybe we're not just good enough in those positions

Diademk07:

Against 10 men Arsenal and with players like Ronadinho, Eto'o, Deco, Xavi et al?
The few seasons Iniesta didn't have many talent to play with, he was viewed as those fanny players with lovely techniques but with no substance.

kai,i can only speak for myself.
I was always scared of the ghostly looking dude on barca bench.
really go watch that match highlight again he came off the bench.

Nihilist:


Or maybe we're not just good enough in those positions

So Mikel was not good enough as a number 10? 40 years old Roger Miller was probably the best attacking player in a world cup.

You also forgot Henry and Eto were not big strikers but intelligent strikers.

You guys gave some points though, but not to the degree you say it.

sleekdot:
I am not contributing to this debate but I saw some points that caught my interest

Some people keep mentioning Okocha as a top footballer, minus say we be Africans, I dont see how he is any different from Quaresma

Secondly Obama is used as an example of a black man, Hmm Hope you dont forget he is 50% white?

3. There are white skinned and black skinned Arabs

There's nothing like half white or half black, a black man is a black man(African, Hottentots, Melanesians/Papua, “Negrito”, Australian Aborigine, Dravidians, Sinhalese) and can be recognized easily, it is either you are black or white and if white skinned either you are Caucasian or mongoloid.
Mind you Arab is no race rather ethnicity>

elampiro:


So Mikel was not good enough as a number 10? 40 years old Roger Miller was probably the best attacking player in a world cup.

You also forgot Henry and Eto were not big strikers but intelligent strikers.

You guys gave some points though, but not to the degree you say it.

answer honestly,
who would you be more comfortable with ,solely based on appearance without any fore knowledge of their skill.
a black DM or a Caucasian DM.

SIRcumalot:

answer honestly,
who would you be more comfortable with ,solely based on appearance without any fore knowledge of their skill.
a black DM or a Caucasian DM.

A black DM with gorilla looks

Doslop:

There's nothing like half white or half black, a black man is a black man(African, Hottentots, Melanesians/Papua, “Negrito”, Australian Aborigine, Dravidians, Sinhalese) and can be recognized easily, it is either you are black or white and if white skinned either you are Caucasian or mongoloid.
Mind you Arab is no race rather ethnicity>

So when a white and black have a child, what is the childs race? e.g Obama

a proper answer to the debate on black/white power/techniques lies in analysing a series of complex issues.
from eating culture to climatic conditions.
different kind of food have different nutrients which I turn gives different end products...
d blacks r known to be much used to eating too much carbohydrates which gives strenght but reduces mental capacity. #fact
furthermore we consume a lot of red meat which according to Oriental studies kills the central nervous system.
that is why u see the Chinese and far eastern people as a whole tend to flourish in sports dat needs total concentration and less of power like table tennis. it's because their diet culture is more of herbs and tea which tends to stimulate their brain and nervous system.

the Europeans too have a diet culture dat entails very little carbs.

now don't ask me silly questions like 'what if a black man changes his diet to suit what is obtainable in the far east'.
years upon years of this dietary culture has manipulated the DNA of blacks so much dat even if u r born and still decide to eat the European way, ur chances of actually reaching their own level of brain functioning is still low because ur DNA has been altered to a specific manner.

I don't know any other way to pass along dis message because it is a full study on its own and am I have limited time. bit all in all....

d orientals r adept at acts dat needs more of focus and less of strenght. dats why u can hardly beat them in sports like table tennis which is all about focus. their nervous system responses r of d highest degree in all human species....thanks to their diet.

the blacks have d physical advantage pound for pound....thanks to our diet...

the whites (Europeans) have d highest reasoning capacity....

sleekdot:


So when a white and black have a child, what is the childs race? e.g Obama

Odemwingie is a perfect example, what race do you think he is

Doslop:
Odemwingie is a perfect example, what race do you think he is

He is mixed. He can be either black or white.

So any prowess in Odemwengie can be due to either his black genes or white genes.

You are saying there is no half/mixed, so I am asking when a black and a white have kids, what race is the child?

sleekdot:


Which world cup did Okocha control midfield for us? And Bolton really? Its like saying Charlie Adam controlled midfield for Blackpool or someone controlled midfield for Swansea and Crystal Palace. I've seen Quaresma do stuff at a top club like Porto which Okocha was never able to do at any top club

How is Obama black and not white? he has equal percentage of black and white genes

I can't believe you would compare Okocha to Charlie Adams.
There's no way we would have won the '96 Olympic nor got to the second round of '94 worldcup.
Anyway, Quaresma is no midfielder to begin with. His intelligence is almost zero. To be fair to him, his crosses seems to have improved a bit.

Diademk07:

I can't believe you would compare Okocha to Charlie Adams.
There's no way we would have won the '96 Olympic nor got to the second round of '94 worldcup.
Anyway, Quaresma is no midfielder to begin with. His intelligence is almost zero. To be fair to him, his crosses seems to have improved a bit.

Charlie Adams because of the way he too dominated midfield at a low table club

First of all in Atlanta 96 Okocha was the most useless offensive player we had. And one of the most useless the entire tournament
If not for the doggedness of Amokachi and Skills of Kanu, Okocha would have cost us the tournament. vs Brazil in the semi finals he was the most useless player on the field, missed a penalty started laughing blowing away shots over the bar

Now to USA 94:
First match 3-0 win vs Bulgaria Okocha did not play a single minute in the match
Second match 1-2 loss to Argentina Okocha played 2 minutes
Third match 2-0 win vs Greece Okocha played 20mins

So in the 270mins to get to the second round in USA 94 Okocha played just 22mins Thats like 8%.
So explain how without Okocha we wouldnt have got to the 2nd round like you claimed?

In the second round Okocha started and that was one of the mistakes we made in the game cos he was contented with his aimless and senseless dribbles and we crashed out

Quaresma and Okocha are very similar in that they have the purpose of footbal twisted upside down, they think its just to come and do fancy tricks without end results. Instead of sidefooting a cross Quaresma would use the outside of the wrong foot and Okocha would do a Rabona.

Only a useless player with priorities upside down would dribble a player instead of accelerating away, stand still and wait for the player to recover OR dribble the whole defence and keeper and turn around to re-dribble them again

Even though Quaresma as even performed at a bigger club, I still rate him on the same level as Okocha in football intelligence

sleekdot:


He is mixed. He can be either black or white.

So any prowess in Odemwengie can be due to either his black genes or white genes.

You are saying there is no half/mixed, so I am asking when a black and a white have kids, what race is the child?

The child is black and is always considered black. White people have always said it takes two white people(man and woman) to make a white kid.

^^ SO why do we have to go by what white people say? Dont you know thats an inherently racist comment

To be white you have to be 100%

To be black you just need a drop of black blood 1%

Why not say It takes two blacks to make a black kid instead of getting all the racially ambiguous people dumped as blacks

Diademk07:

The problem with Okocha is that he was too loyal to a fault.
He wouldn't leave Bolton despite the top clubs coming for him. He could have played for the Turkey national team but he was loyal to Nigeria. But it doesn't mean Okocha wasn't as good as Iniesta.
I still recall the moment Mikel Obi tried to muster all his skills as a visionary midfielder at the confederation cup (thanks to Keshi who gave him an attacking free role), he was head and shoulder above the spanish midfield. Care to tell me why this was so?
Because even with his lesser technique, he has abundant talent in the area of strength and vision although he was constantly under utilised at Chelsea..

Okocha was not loyal to a fault. No top club wanted him that's the reason why He did not leave Bolton. In the grand scheme of things, Okocha was nothing more than a glorified ball juggler. And No Mikel did not outplay the spanish midfield, He simply had a good game. Much the same way Wilshere did a good game vs Barca a few ago.

Okocha better than Iniesta,Xavi and Pirlo? On what planet? Let him stick to his level with the likes of Denilson,Ortega and co abeg.

sleekdot:

Charlie Adams because of the way he too dominated midfield at a low table club

First of all in Atlanta 96 Okocha was the most useless offensive player we had. And one of the most useless the entire tournament
If not for the doggedness of Amokachi and Skills of Kanu, Okocha would have cost us the tournament. vs Brazil in the semi finals he was the most useless player on the field, missed a penalty started laughing blowing away shots over the bar

Now to USA 94:
First match 3-0 win vs Bulgaria Okocha did not play a single minute in the match
Second match 1-2 loss to Argentina Okocha played 2 minutes
Third match 2-0 win vs Greece Okocha played 20mins

So in the 270mins to get to the second round in USA 94 Okocha played just 22mins Thats like 8%.
So explain how without Okocha we wouldnt have got to the 2nd round like you claimed?

In the second round Okocha started and that was one of the mistakes we made in the game cos he was contented with his aimless and senseless dribbles and we crashed out

Quaresma and Okocha are very similar in that they have the purpose of footbal twisted upside down, they think its just to come and do fancy tricks without end results. Instead of sidefooting a cross Quaresma would use the outside of the wrong foot and Okocha would do a Rabona.

Only a useless player with priorities upside down would dribble a player instead of accelerating away, stand still and wait for the player to recover OR dribble the whole defence and keeper and turn around to re-dribble them again

Even though Quaresma as even performed at a bigger club, I still rate him on the same level as Okocha in football intelligence

I will admit that I wasn't old enough during the '94 worldcup but I can say Okocha was quite good for his Bolton club and his vision was better than Quaresma.
It's quite true that he often tends to hug the ball but that could be attributed to the lack of qualities around him to relieve him of the responsibility.

chic2pimp:
Okocha was not loyal to a fault. No top club wanted him that's the reason why He did not leave Bolton. In the grand scheme of things, Okocha was nothing more than a glorified ball juggler. And No Mikel did not outplay the spanish midfield, He simply had a good game. Much the same way Wilshere did a good game vs Barca a few ago.

Okocha better than Iniesta,Xavi and Pirlo? On what planet? Let him stick to his level with the likes of Denilson,Ortega and co abeg.

You are even insulting Ortega, Ariel would use his skill to dive and win his team a penalty. What would Okocha do? Rabona, rainbow flick and blast the ball over the bar, chew gum, spit, then laugh

If not for the later part of his career, I wouldnt rate Okocha better than Nii Odartey Lamptey

Diademk07:

I will admit that I wasn't old enough during the '94 worldcup but I can say Okocha was quite good for his Bolton club and his vision was better than Quaresma.
It's quite true that he often tends to hug the ball but that could be attributed to the lack of qualities around him to relieve him of the responsibility.

I suspected you didnt watch him too much around that time,

He was good for Bolton, what does it take to be good for a mid table and relegation bound team? Is that not why I compared him to Charlie Adams?

It wasnt due to the lack of quality around him, Okocha himself, was the "Lack of quality" There was a reason no serious club sought his service, his abilities are only for a small level club like Lua Lua Tresor Lomana not a top level clubside which is why he does have a lot of similarities to Quaresma good ball jugglers, poor football sense

chic2pimp:


Okocha was not loyal to a fault. No top club wanted him that's the reason why He did not leave Bolton. In the grand scheme of things, Okocha was nothing more than a glorified ball juggler. And No Mikel did not outplay the spanish midfield, He simply had a good game. Much the same way Wilshere did a good game vs Barca a few ago.

Okocha better than Iniesta,Xavi and Pirlo? On what planet? Let him stick to his level with the likes of Denilson,Ortega and co abeg.

Lol!
I never implied that Okocha is better than Xavi nor Pirlo.
My comparism was with Iniesta who's more of an attacking midfielder than a player who orchestrate play.
And yes, Mikel did dominate the Spanish midfield unlike Wilshere who was constantly dribbling to evade pressure, Mikel was about crisp passes, fantastic vision, intelligence, strength and his technique to evade pressure was good in that match.

elampiro:


A black DM with gorilla looks

I'll do the same too.
this profiling is partly responsible

sleekdot:


You are even insulting Ortega, Ariel would use his skill to dive and win his team a penalty. What would Okocha do? Rabona, rainbow flick and blast the ball over the bar, chew gum, spit, then laugh

If not for the later part of his career, I wouldnt rate Okocha better than Nii Odartey Lamptey

Lol @dive. Ortega was an infuriating player. Dude had all the talent but No He would rather showboat.

That's why I take exception when people say He was Africa's greatest ever playmaker. No He wasn't Abedi was.

sleekdot:
^^ SO why do we have to go by what white people say? Dont you know thats an inherently racist comment

To be white you have to be 100%

To be black you just need a drop of black blood 1%

Why not say It takes two blacks to make a black kid instead of getting all the racially ambiguous people dumped as blacks

I think your skin tone and facial features are the determinant.
Even if you have white parent, if you're black, people will definitely call you one.

Black, White, Green, Yellow
Dopejemi see wetin u don cause.....

Diademk07:

I think your skin tone and facial features are the determinant.
Even if you have white parent, if you're black, people will definitely call you one.

Whats the race of the person below



OR this

[img]http://www.bdasports.com/wp-content/themes/onyx/thumb.php?src=http://www.bdasports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Klay-Thompson-s1.jpg&h=600&w=400[/img]

Below is Jason Kidd(a mixed race) with white wife, What race would those kids be? I presume black since it can only be white if its 100%



White you have to be 100% white
Chinese you have to be 100% Chinese
Hispanic you have to be 100% Hispanic
Anything you are not sure of and has a tinge of black just dump them as black

chic2pimp:
Lol @dive. Ortega was an infuriating player. Dude had all the talent but No He would rather showboat.

That's why I take exception when people say He was Africa's greatest ever playmaker. No He wasn't Abedi was.

I wont even put him in top 7 Nigerian players of his generation

Diademk07:

Lol!
I never implied that Okocha is better than Xavi nor Pirlo.
My comparism was with Iniesta who's more of an attacking midfielder than a player who orchestrate play.
And yes, Mikel did dominate the Spanish midfield unlike Wilshere who was constantly dribbling to evade pressure, Mikel was about crisp passes, fantastic vision, intelligence, strength and his technique to evade pressure was good in that match.

Yh I know it wasn't u. Reason why I started a new paragraph to address that point.

sleekdot:


I wont even put him in top 7 Nigerian players of his generation

Nah i'm not having that. Jay jay makes top 3

sleekdot:


Whats the race of the person below



OR this

[img]http://www.bdasports.com/wp-content/themes/onyx/thumb.php?src=http://www.bdasports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Klay-Thompson-s1.jpg&h=600&w=400[/img]

Below is Jason Kidd(a mixed race) with white wife, What race would those kids be? I presume black since it can only be white if its 100%



White you have to be 100% white
Chinese you have to be 100% Chinese
Hispanic you have to be 100% Hispanic
Anything you are not sure of and has a tinge of black just dump them as black

I think the reason why it's that is due to the likelihood of birthing a black child in future generation.
It would be surprising if 2 white parents birthed a black child except one of the parents is from a black lineage.
But it's quite uncommon for two black parents to birth a white child. Even if that happens, there would still be some distinctive black features that would distinguish the white child from other whites.

chic2pimp:
Nah i'm not having that. Jay jay makes top 3

1. King Kanu (6th WPOTY)
2, Finidi Finito (CL winner as a regular one of the best wingers in elite Europe in his prime)
3. Taribo West (Inter Milan, AC Milan, defensive stalwart)
4. Oliseh Laser (Ajax, Juventus, Dortmund top clubs in their league)
5. Amokachi Bull
6. Papa Yekini (Highest goal scorer in Portuguese league 93/94 season)
7. Prince Ikpeba (Prince of Monaco leading them to a CL semi)
8. K-leg Amunike (African footballer of the year 94)
9. Cele Babayaro (Chelsea defensive stalwart)
10. Enyeama (At his peak one of the safest gloves in Europe)
11. Okocha (Dont know what to write as his career peak) Okay key player for midtable Bolton

sleekdot:


1. King Kanu (6th WPOTY)
2, Finidi Finito (CL winner as a regular one of the best wingers in elite Europe in his prime)
3. Taribo West (Inter Milan, AC Milan, defensive stalwart)
4. Oliseh Laser (Ajax, Juventus, Dortmund top clubs in their league)
5. Amokachi Bull
6. Papa Yekini (Highest goal scorer in Portuguese league 93/94 season)
7. Prince Ikpeba (Prince of Monaco leading them to a CL semi)
8. K-leg Amunike (African footballer of the year 94)
9. Cele Babayaro (Chelsea defensive stalwart)
10. Enyeama (At his peak one of the safest gloves in Europe)
11. Okocha (Dont know what to write as his career peak) Okay key player for midtable Bolton

I am not having this list Bar Kanu, George and may be Oliseh. Was Yekini even in Okocha's generation?

Nihilist:


We can't assess the level of initial talent and training of you and your friends, but we can look at the professional football world where the players have all undergone more or less similar amounts of training...and have largely been categorised via the recruitment process.

Holland is a country known for it's emphasis on technical training and ability. When you look at the white players to emerge from holland recently, you have artists like Robben, Sneijder, VdV etc...

When you look at the black players to emerge from Holland, you have the likes of Davids, Seedorf, Martins Indi,Hasselbaink. The first two did have considerable technical skill, but they are largely remembered for their power, stamina and hot shots.

Pataki will tell you that there are a large population of dutch born blacks in the eredivisie, but they generally tend to be in the same mould as the second group. Just look at Depay for instance.

You shouldn't have said this. Remove Davids and Seedorf from that your list abeg. Their technique was excellent enough and shouldn't even be in question simply because they spent most of their time in defensive positions. If they had played more forward, i doubt their physicality would have been in much review. There are good number of black Dutch players who possessed extremely good technique comparable to those possessed by their white peers.

Did you watch Ruud Gullit play? Was his technique average?
Or have you forgotten about other Dutch players like Kluivert or Rijkaard? Please tell me they were white.
Those are some of the greatest European and dutch players of all time and they were black, simple. What is the percentage of Black folks in the Netherlands' population for them to have contributed so much?

The jury is still out on Depay. It's even a weak excuse to bring up because the Oranje currently isn't churning out world beaters at the moment and it's to Depay credit that he might even be the best out of a bad bunch.

Europe has been dominating football since the early days of the sport. It's nothing new. South America were not 'Initial kings'. Uruguay won the 1st ever world cup in 1930....Italy won the next two world cups.

Europe had more world cup wins than South America as far back as the 80s sef...so that theory is dead in the water...especially as the great South Americans of the early days of the sport mostly played in South America.

In the beginning of the 80s, South America had 6 world cup wins (through 3 countries; Brazil, Uruguay and Argentina) while Europe had 5 (through Italy, Germany and England). Get your facts right!
Moreover my assertion even goes beyond just world cup wins. Brazil had a very good teams then and the best players in the world then(Brazilians) plied their trade there unlike now the best teams are just like a feeder for for the top European teams to pluck talent from. White European players though good were quite inferior to black Brazilian players like Garrincha, Pele and co in those days. The gap soon started to narrow and currently the gap has never been so narrow. So my earlier point still holds.

Don't compare European born blacks to African blacks who haven't had the same level of training. Compare European born black footballers to European born white footballers who've had the same training and the difference is clear. Look at the boateng family. 2 Good players - Germany took the defender, and left Kevin Prince for Ghana. Why?( He's not technical enough). In fact almost all the blacks in Germany's first team - Rudiger, Tah, Boateng....are defenders.

Is Sane white?
The population of black folks relative to the overall figure is very low in Germany. Wasn't it even in the beginning of this century that a black player first played in the German national team? Obviously you didn't know this because if you did you'd have realized that your proposition is a joke.

Look at England. 5 of the players that started for England vs Russia are Black. 3 were defenders.1 was a winger. Why?

Look at Portugal - That one is even so deeply divided. Black players = Athletes and/or Ishon. Whites = Artists.

Was Eusebio white? He's the greatest Portuguese player ever( though would be very debatable when Ronaldo retires).

I don't even think there are enough black folks in most European countries to affect adequately the generation of players in the national team. With time, you'll see better black players in attack and in almost every position. Black players are over represented in almost every European football team. Can you compare the percentage of black players in those European national teams to the actual percentage of Black people in those countries? You simply can't. Now many of those few black players in those countries might have had to make do with defensive positions because they were in unfair competition with their white counterparts and they would have better chances of becoming a successful footballer if they chose to play in defensive positions that would favor their natural athleticism which is an advantage for them compared to white folks hence the relatively high number of blacks in defensive positions. Some of those black folks could have had very different careers if they weren't black or conversely no career at all because some of those black players might actually not be talented enough to play football but they still end up as professional footballers in these European countries because they still possess a physicality advantage over the white guys.
This whole explanation is complicated but it's very correct and i believe you should be able to understand.

Why is it that Black players in Europe are either Brutish defenders, Brutish/Strong/Stamina defensive midfielders, or pacy wingers?

I have explained.

Why is there no black Pirlo? Where is the Black Ozil?

Ozil is Turkish which is far enough from being white. Turkey isn't a great footballing nation either.

Jay jay and Kanu were freaks and outliers...in a nation of pace and power, they were born with different other skills. They weren't fast or strong...they were completely different. The reaseon why we cant replicate them is that they are not usual occurrences here. Go to Europe and white JayJay and Kanu's boku.

I believe there are better footballing talents in Nigeria but they just haven't been discovered or the conditions for them to succeed is just very unfavorable. The development of football in most African countries like Nigeria is very poor especially at the grassroots.

This is just standard. At the last commonwealth games, I was watching England vs Austraiia table tennis doubles - ALl four of the players involved were Chinese.

I think i should agree with this but i feel it's also very debatable. The Chinese tennis culture for a nation with a population more than the entire Africa is quite important. Put it this way; it's the same reason Russia produces far better chess players ( a lot of grand-masters) than any other European country. Would you say the Russians are more intelligent than the British, Germans or the French? They didn't even invent the game. The Soviet union made chess part of the national culture during the cold war and they got ahead of everyone in the game. The union was dissolved since the early 90s but the results are still evident till today. Now go figure that out and why.

Different skills for different races. Thats a fact.

Maybe but not exactly for football and you've done a poor job proving it. Now consider the US a country which has more white people than any European country or even any where in the world? Please show me the technical or talented players there
Australia is another good example; the current white people there are descendants of the British. Where are the great players?

I knew exactly that i was right when i said it had nothing to do with the color of the skin.