Nihilist:


I thought we were discussing Chalobah and Alli. Musonda and Kalas is a different discussion. I didn't not know you were trying to have a wider discussion about youth players.

In Alli's case, this is not about 'having confidence to play him'.

Alli scored 16 goals for MK Don's in his final season from midfield and made PFA team of the year.

It is not Pochettino's 'confidence to play him' that made Alli displace Bentaleb from midfield and later push Eriksen out of the number 10 position.

It is not Pochettino's confidence to play Alli that made him contribute 19 league goals in his debut season.

It is not Pochettino's confidence to play Alli that made Alli score a long range Golazo against France on his first start for England

It is not Pochettino's confidence to play Alli that made Alli the PFA Young player of the year and the youngest member of the PFA team of the year in his debut season.


It's like buying Diego Costa and then saying Jose had confidence in him that's why he scored 19 goals in his debut season

When you're good, you're good.Pochettino did not give him a chance - look up the interview- Alli turned up to the Spurs training ground already better than the people there. Poch would have been foolish not to play Alli sef.


Alli is better than Colket Baker and any other name you mention from that academy. That is that.

True. Kindly tell me why Alli is so good but the likes of RLC despite all the talent could not even make the grades.

Ibime:


Bentaleb was injured mate for almost all of last season. By the time he returned the team was set and fighting for title. Bentalebs main competition is Dembele. It was Chadli that suffered at Allis hand because Eriksen was pushed wide to his position while Alli took the AM position.

Infact, I like that guy Bentaleb. I for like make Chelsea sign am.


@ Nateevs,

Most of your points are agreeable. The fact is a manager has no incentive to play a player on loan that the club does not make any money from. That is why Christensen and Musonda had to have 2 years and 18 months loan respectively, because no manager is interested in developing another club's player. That is why Ake's feat last season was so outstanding.

I was also thinking about that boy Jeremie Boga's loan to Rennes last season. Boga is a decent player, a right-footed right-winger. But what chance did he stand loaning him to Rennes to compete for the same right wing position against Ousmane Dembele, one of the hottest youngsters in Europe in the same position who Rennes were trying to develop and sell on for megabucks?

Oga
When a club takes a player on loan, it is not because they want to develop him, it is because they need him.

When a club sends a player out on loan, it is because they feel he is good enough but needs playing time.

Kingsley Conan was on loan at Bayern from Juventus. HE KNOCKED HIS PARENT CLUB OUT OF THE UCL. That is how to make a statement.

Spy360:

Oga
When a club takes a player on loan, it is not because they want to develop him, it is because they need him.

When a club sends a player out on loan, it is because they feel he is good enough but needs playing time.

Kingsley Conan was on loan at Bayern from Juventus. HE KNOCKED HIS PARENT CLUB OUT OF THE UCL. That is how to make a statement.

Stop yarning nonsense. Clubs also take players on loan to fill their squads.

Kingsley Coman is on a 2 year loan costing Bayern 7m a year plus 20m purchase agreement.

That is a finance lease, which confers the risks and rewards of ownership on Bayern. . . just like your phucking car note!

Serge Gnabry and Jenkinson from your useless club are two niggas really on loan, not Kingsley Coman.

nateevs:



How can price tag not be relevant? How many kids at 19 are sold for £12m? In fact, in football after talent is considered, age is a direct reflection of transfer value. Where that ceases to be the case, the subject in question falls under exceptional. You cannot expect a 19-year-old Messi to cost the same as Charlie Musonda. Why? Exceptional.

So when a Messi at 19 costs his new team £12m, he goes there, in the worst case scenario to be at the door of the first team and in the best case scenario, to play. Not to announce himself to the manager. He's already known quantity. Very different from the case of Chalobah.

Why are we bring Luis into this? Does Zouma(19) at £12m and Luis(28) at £12m mean the same thing in football?




It's not what I say, it is what can happen. Moreover, I tried to push the point of the manager having no need for the player (and hence no requirement to field him). I tried to make that clearer than the "psychology" point of view but you have clearly omitted that.

Now deliberately fusing the psychological element into it, when a manager declares that they have no imperative to develop players from other clubs, and furthermore states that you (loan player at 20) stand no chance, one will be grossly simplistic to claim that this is incapable of denting a 20-year-old's confidence, thereby affecting them psychologically.

How is this not clear?

Just to add.

Rumours linking Chelsea to Lukaku and United's push for Pogba speaks volumes. THEIR MANAGERS DID NOT PUT FAITH IN THEM. Shiit happens, but there are shits you just can't take.

Let Pogba go to Juve for free, got him back for a world record fee? £86millions? THAT'S SHIIT

Ibime:


Stop yarning nonsense. Clubs also take players on loan to fill their squads.

Kingsley Coman is on a 2 year loan costing Bayern 7m a year plus 20m purchase agreement.

That is a finance lease, which confers the risks and rewards of ownership on Bayern. . . just like your phucking car note!

Serge Gnabry and Jenkinson from your useless club are two niggas really on loan, not Kingsley Coman.

If you are on loan just to fill the squad then you are more useless than initially thought.

Kinsley Coman was on loan, whether it was a lease or not. A loan deal can be made permanent depending on the contractual agreement. Even Torres was on loan last season at Athletico,.

Spy360:

If you are on loan just to fill the squad then you are more useless than initially thought.

Kinsley Coman was on loan, whether it was a lease or not. A loan deal can be made permanent depending on the contractual agreement. Even Torres was on loan last season at Athletico,.

Never in your life,I repeat never in your life should you ever butt in a sweet convo involving intelligent niggas...
You just spoiled the good trend of reasonable sequential analysis..

You are like a bungalow,nothing upstairs

^^^

bigkesh:

Never in your life,I repeat never in your life should you ever butt in a sweet convo involving intelligent niggas...
You just spoiled the good trend of reasonable sequential analysis..

You are like a bungalow,nothing upstairs

HAY GOD!!!!!!!!!!

bigkesh:

Never in your life,I repeat never in your life should you ever butt in a sweet convo involving intelligent niggas...
You just spoiled the good trend of reasonable sequential analysis..

You are like a bungalow,nothing upstairs

Lol. I am with you on this tho. I was thinking to myself why tha heck did he have to say anything or join in. #sigh

Spambot don do me strong thing on such a blessed morning. I guess spambot might be pro youth

Anyway lemme start again.

@Nateevs comparing Alli to Bamford is a mortal sin.

Bamford had not one but two chances in the EPL last season. 16 Apps Zero goals.

First let's hear what Pardew had to say about Bamford:

"Do I think he can be a Premier League player? Of course I do,' said Palace boss Pardew. "I wouldn't have taken him otherwise.

"You have to understand that to jump into the Premier League in a team that's doing well....it's not like we've struggled this year. We've done very, very well."

"He's just not hardened yet. He needs to harden as a professional. This experience will harden him.
You've got to fight and this will harden him up.

"He knows this is a little bit of a step-up from the Championship, but there is nothing to suggest he cannot make that step-up. I wish him all the best for the future."



Now compare this to what Pochettino said about Alli:

"Each player is different and some players need more time but Dele Alli from the first day of pre-season started to showed that he was capable of playing in the Premier League."

So a manager for a relegation battling team thought that Bamford was not yet an EPL level talent..but a manager at a Top 5 club thought Alli was ready from DAY ONE...

But you think that Bamford is a victim of our youth policy?

Now to Zouma.

As you should know, sir Nateevs, Mourinho is no respecter of price tag. Lukaku was younger than Zouma when he arrived with a loftier price tag and did not see shirt.

Felipe Luiz cost more than Zouma and by virtue of his achievements in football should have been starting - Yet Jose stuck with 7m Dave Azpilicueta.

Cuadrado signed for 23m and did not see shirt. Baba age 21 signed for 17m and disabled not see shirt.

So please let's not weaken the disvussion by pretending that Jose was compelled to play anybody based on their price tag.

Like I pointed out, Jose publicly stated that he did not know who Zouma was. They put a player in front of him and said take defender. It was up to Zouma to play himself into the first team.

If you're arguing that Chalobah did not play himself into reckoning because the manager did not know him, then he's not what we need.

If he is so mentally weak that the manager saying he doesn't know him is percieved as a psychological blow, then why do we want him?

Please there are players, and then there are Players. Ori yato si Ori

Ibime:


Bentaleb was injured mate for almost all of last season. By the time he returned the team was set and fighting for title. Bentalebs main competition is Dembele. It was Chadli that suffered at Allis hand because Eriksen was pushed wide to his position while Alli took the AM position.

Infact, I like that guy Bentaleb. I for like make Chelsea sign am.


@ Nateevs,

Most of your points are agreeable. The fact is a manager has no incentive to play a player on loan that the club does not make any money from. That is why Christensen and Musonda had to have 2 years and 18 months loan respectively, because no manager is interested in developing another club's player. That is why Ake's feat last season was so outstanding.

I was also thinking about that boy Jeremie Boga's loan to Rennes last season. Boga is a decent player, a right-footed right-winger. But what chance did he stand loaning him to Rennes to compete for the same right wing position against Ousmane Dembele, one of the hottest youngsters in Europe in the same position who Rennes were trying to develop and sell on for megabucks?

This is just splitting hairs..

Start of the season saw Alli and Dembele in the pivot. Then Alli moved up to 10. My argument is that Alli would have displaced Bentaleb even if he was fit. Bentaleb came back in January to find Tom freaking Carroll ahead of him.

I don't understand the issue with Boga. If he cannot even compete with his fellow 19 year old, is it Willian he will now displace?

No manager wants to lose - if you are better than what they have, they will play you. Boga is not better than Dembele.

It's similar to the Palace situation - Palace wereally so desperate for a striker they went to Africa to sign Adebayor that hadnt played a competitive game in over a year. Meanwhile Bamford was there pretending to be an EPL player. Forget story bros.

Bad loan is only an excuse if you're not actually good.

bigkesh:

Never in your life,I repeat never in your life should you ever butt in a sweet convo involving intelligent niggas...
You just spoiled the good trend of reasonable sequential analysis..

You are like a bungalow,nothing upstairs

hehehe

bigkesh:

Never in your life,I repeat never in your life should you ever butt in a sweet convo involving intelligent niggas...
You just spoiled the good trend of reasonable sequential analysis..

You are like a bungalow,nothing upstairs

Why you dey do bros like dis na?

Nihilstjnr:
Spambot don do me strong thing on such a blessed morning. I guess spambot might be pro youth

Serves you right for _fucking spam bots kid sister over the weekend!




Seriously though, I've been waiting to read your thoughts on the new boss of your beloved 3 lions! And what you realistically see him doing with both the england teams style of play as well as regards their future achievements!



Based on his past antecedents as a manager and his standing as a PFM overlord that is!

Spy360.....

Right on Monday morning you just gats collect.....

good morning @all my ogas
For the issue at hand, I think both parties have a point. Talent-wise the likes of Boga, RLC, etc. 'MIGHT' be better than Alli, the question should be do they have the fight and desire in them to climb up the pecking order, or to perform when given the LITTLE opportunity (talent without desire to achieve greatness is nothing ask CR7 and Quaresma)
I remembered Mou post match speech after a particular match RLC played, one point he made was his reluctance to go into tackles to regain the ball, also someone above posted Pardew opinion on bamford (who everyone was expecting to make the leap after his exploits in league 1 and championship ).
Another point to note is that not Every academy graduates will eventually make the grade for the first team (cleverly, Powell, tello, watt, afobe, cuenca, Bojan, Dos Santos, Batra, Keane, R Morrison "a player who was better than Pogba in the academy " etc. ) while there are some who seize the 'little' opportunity given to them (L Vazquez, Kane, Rashford, Busquets, Varretti, Messi, D Alli, Ferdinand, A Cole, Zouma, Cech, J Terry, etc.)
I will be very pleased same as Abrahamovich and every other Chelsea fans around the globe to see a graduate(s) from our prestigious academy that has conquered both England and Europe multiple times playing consistently and constantly for OUR first team.
IT TAKES MORE THAN TALENT. #myhumbleopinion

funlord:





Serves you right for _fucking spam bots kid sistier over the weekend!




Seriously though, I've been waiting to read your thoughts on the new boss of your beloved 3 lions! And what you realistically see him doing with both the england teams style of play as well as regards their future achievements!



Based on his past antecedents as a manager and his standing as a PFM overlord that is!

Well, I think that the appointment of Allardyce represents the intersection where expectations and reality finally collide.

England FA finally realise that their team are actually not as good as they think they are, and decided to hire the most mediocre English manager around to match their new expectations.

Shakara don end.

Nihilstjnr:


Well, I think that the appointment of Allardyce represents the intersection where expectations and reality finally collide.

England FA finally realise that their team are actually not as good as they think they are, and decided to hire the most mediocre English manager around to match their new expectations.

Shakara don end.

Dayo will be here soon

diggz:
Spy360.....
Right on Monday morning you just gats collect.....

I was only inviting him to the discussion.
Bigkesh so person nor fit play with you again? Waka!

Spy360:

I was only inviting him to the discussion.

Bigkesh so person nor fit play with you again? Waka!

Roflmao.......

How you dey sha? Hope u gud?

@bigkesh, FFS! na wetin dey do you naw? haba! we go call elders meeting for you o. uhhaaa. ki lo de?
Actually Spy360 (no idea who he is) does have a point but I really dont wanna go into that.


@Nihilist. The Spambots of NL are definitely pro youth.
re: RLC
a) So you think I based my evalution of the player on one single match against a team with no stadium? Like seriously?
b) he is lazy, does not want to get into a tackle and bla bla bla....but can he be a better player? I think the answer is YES.
c) There is nothing Alli is playing that we don't have in our youth squad. That he is playing for England dont mean shait. abi no be the same National team Wheelbarrow they play for? Now, imagine he was forcefully converted to a winger or defender or any other position aside his preferred zone? na different hymn una go all dey sing now.

@nateevs, no be only Chalobah sef...ask Mr. Nihilist about Josh.
This is what Emenalo said - "Josh McEachran was a wonderful, wonderful talent and we could have had a different programme. "But we have learned from that.

Chelsea, aint no selling club (abi we be Porto?), so its in our very own interest to make our youth players better. We gast to nurture them and play them where we can get the VERY BEST out of them.

Egbon FBS,

I will continue to say that I am not against youth. Nihilist is best described as pro-TheRightYouth.

I will not deny that mistakes have been made - I certainly don't look back at Lukaku's departure with fondness. KDB didn't exactly look great when we had him, but looking at what he has gone on to achieve, then there is an argument that we could have done better.

But NOT all the youth we have can claim to be mistreated. Bamford is just useless. He went to not one but TWO EPL teams that were desperate for strikers. Palace were playing wingers upfront and in January this year, went to sign Adebayor who last played a competitive match in November 2014.

At Norwich, he only had to compete with 3 strikers that had 10 league goals between them all season. Cameron Jerome had only 3 goals last season. Mbokani had 7. Lewis Grabban had 0. That was supposed to be a through pass for his career, but the boy still couldn't take his chances.

Ditto Chalobah.

I think that esteemed members of the thread like bihkesh, yourself and nateevs are guilty of lumping all these young players together under the catchall of 'youth'

It is important that we separate the chaff from the wheat first, then we can start a proper disvussion about the way forward with youth.

Saying things like Charlie Colkett( who has not played a single minute of professional football in his life) is better than Dele Alli (Multiple PFA nominations) just makes a mockery of the discussion.

Why even stop at Alli, why not say Colkett is better than Martial and Coman? Sod it, let's go for the nuclear option and call it - Colkett is better than CR7 and Messi.

Nihilstjnr:
Egbon FBS,

I will continue to say that I am not against youth. Nihilist is best described as pro-TheRightYouth.

I will not deny that mistakes have been made - I certainly don't look back at Lukaku's departure with fondness. KDB didn't exactly look great when we had him, but looking at what he has gone on to achieve, then there is an argument that we could have done better.

But NOT all the youth we have can claim to be mistreated. Bamford is just useless. He went to not one but TWO EPL teams that were desperate for strikers. Palace were playing wingers upfront and in January this year, went to sign Adebayor who last played a competitive match in November 2014.

At Norwich, he only had to compete with 3 strikers that had 10 league goals between them all season. Cameron Jerome had only 3 goals last season. Mbokani had 7. Lewis Grabban had 0. That was supposed to be a through pass for his career, but the boy still couldn't take his chances.

Ditto Chalobah.

I think that esteemed members of the thread like bihkesh, yourself and nateevs are guilty of lumping all these young players together under the catchall of 'youth'

It is important that we separate the chaff from the wheat first, then we can start a proper disvussion about the way forward with youth.

Saying things like Charlie Colkett( who has not played a single minute of professional football in his life) is better than Dele Alli (Multiple PFA nominations) just makes a mockery of the discussion.

Why even stop at Alli, why not say Colkett is better than Martial and Coman? Sod it, let's go for the nuclear option and call it - Colkett is better than CR7 and Messi.

Chairman sir, why did you omit the statement about Josh? Do you even know him? You see am play before?

Alright...I get the point. Alli is now the best things since jollof rice. Izzokay.... More importantly though, how do you separate the igi efo from the efo itself? I want you to answer.. please.

Plus, erm, both Lukaku and KDB ain't from our youth setup. Different scenarios.

It's only this board I get to constantly read about the names Chelshit academy stars
*in Pataki's voice* Hmmmmmm

Nihilstjnr:
Well, I think that the appointment of Allardyce represents the intersection where expectations and reality finally collide.
England FA finally realise that their team are actually not as good as they think they are, and decided to hire the most mediocre English manager around to match their new expectations.
Shakara don end.

chrisley024:
Dayo will be here soon

I don reach

Now England have finally embraced who they are. A nation without talent and dependent on the weak EPL to give them the best. The best from a pile of garbage is still useless.

Now England players need to learn how to launch throwing into the box like Delap and Okocha, with hopes that Nolan would be somewhere to bundle it in

This tactics might actually make them beat Iceland next time around

FBS:

Chairman sir, why did you omit the statement about Josh? Do you even know him? You see am play before?

Alright...I get the point. Alli is now the best things since jollof rice. Izzokay.... More importantly though, how do you separate the igi efo from the efo itself? I want you to answer.. please.

Plus, erm, both Lukaku and KDB ain't from our youth setup. Different scenarios.

My point will be lost if you exaggerate my statements like that.

Dele Alli is a member of the PFA team of the year. His contemporaries in that August collection are being priced at 20m minimum. Kante just signed for 30. Mahrez is reportefly being priced at 45m. Kane at 50m

It is patently silly for someone to say that Colkett and Lewis Cook are better than Alli. Statements like that irritate me to my marrow.

It's interesting that you point out how Lukaku and KDB are not from our setups. Does it matter? Are they not youth? Bamford is a Forest grad and Christensen came from Brondby.

I don't get your point with Josh Mceachran- Are we going to go through every single member of the academy until we find that 'aha!' moment?

The best you can describe Josh as for us was probably 'OK'. He got sent out on a couple of loans, did ok in some, not great in others...now in the championship. Perhaps could have been handled better. So what? I don't think that we missed his talent anyway...

Nihilstjnr:
Egbon FBS,

I will continue to say that I am not against youth. Nihilist is best described as pro-TheRightYouth.

I will not deny that mistakes have been made - I certainly don't look back at Lukaku's departure with fondness. KDB didn't exactly look great when we had him, but looking at what he has gone on to achieve, then there is an argument that we could have done better.

But NOT all the youth we have can claim to be mistreated. Bamford is just useless. He went to not one but TWO EPL teams that were desperate for strikers. Palace were playing wingers upfront and in January this year, went to sign Adebayor who last played a competitive match in November 2014.

At Norwich, he only had to compete with 3 strikers that had 10 league goals between them all season. Cameron Jerome had only 3 goals last season. Mbokani had 7. Lewis Grabban had 0. That was supposed to be a through pass for his career, but the boy still couldn't take his chances.

Ditto Chalobah.

I think that esteemed members of the thread like bihkesh, yourself and nateevs are guilty of lumping all these young players together under the catchall of 'youth'

It is important that we separate the chaff from the wheat first, then we can start a proper disvussion about the way forward with youth.

Saying things like Charlie Colkett( who has not played a single minute of professional football in his life) is better than Dele Alli (Multiple PFA nominations) just makes a mockery of the discussion.

Why even stop at Alli, why not say Colkett is better than Martial and Coman? Sod it, let's go for the nuclear option and call it - Colkett is better than CR7 and Messi.

Now YOU are making a mockery of the discussion. No one has mentioned yet the Charlie Colkett is better than anyone. If anything, we have only said the Dele Alli does nothing we have not see in our youth already. I think you will find those are different arguments.

raumdeuter:




I don reach

Now England have finally embraced who they are. A nation without talent and dependent on the weak EPL to give them the best. The best from a pile of garbage is still useless.

Now England players need to learn how to launch throwing into the box like Delap and Okocha, with hopes that Nolan would be somewhere to bundle it in

This tactics might actually make them beat Iceland next time around

I'm sure Allardyce is already trying to tempt Nolan out of retirement

Andy Caroll's place in the team is over sure now.

Spy360:

If you are on loan just to fill the squad then you are more useless than initially thought.

Kinsley Coman was on loan, whether it was a lease or not. A loan deal can be made permanent depending on the contractual agreement. Even Torres was on loan last season at Athletico,.

Kingsley Coman's loan is a €14m Euro loan fee with an option to purchase at €20m ie they have already started paying the players full purchase price within the loan structure.

At the end of his loan, Bayern would have paid €34m for the player. . . . . or a €14m penalty for misuse of the talent, if they choose not to make him permanent.

He is therefore virtually a Bayern player and would have to be really crap not to get opportunities. Such structure guarantees opportunities, and only a really washed player will fail to capitalise (eg Falcao at Man Utd).

A traditional loan however would pay £0-£1m for use of the player over the year, with no incentive for the loaning club to develop the player especially if they have another player who is close to the level of the loanee.

A traditional loan is Serge Gnabry, a youngster who played so well for Arsenal 2 years ago, only to be told by Tony Pulis that he is not good enough for West Brom after one appearance. Are you kidding me?

Tony Pulis does not care about the development of the player and would not take the time to develop or coach him into what he wants. A privilege that was afforded to Jonathan Leko, a 17 year old similar style of player from West Brom academy who is afforded the coaching, effort and given ample game time as soon as it looked like West Brom would be secure in the topflight. Pulis simply has no incentive to coach Gnabry, but he has to coach Leko.

Nihilstjnr:

No manager wants to lose - if you are better than what they have, they will play you. Boga is not better than Dembele.
It's similar to the Palace situation - Palace wereally so desperate for a striker they went to Africa to sign Adebayor that hadnt played a competitive game in over a year. Meanwhile Bamford was there pretending to be an EPL player. Forget story bros.
Bad loan is only an excuse if you're not actually good.

Boga is not better than Dembele, rightly so. But Dembele himself is good enough to take 1st team shirt at Chelsea.

My point being that the fact a player did not get games on loan is not evidence of a player's worth. In Boga's case, this was a bad loan because he was put in a no-win situation against Rennes best player and biggest asset.

Even if Boga and Dembele were equals on the pitch, there is ZERO CHANCE of Rennes giving Dembele's game-time to Boga, as their plan is to sell Dembele at season end for good money. Why would they lose millions in the name of "fair competition" while helping Chelsea develop their player?

nateevs:

Now YOU are making a mockery of the discussion. No one has mentioned yet the Charlie Colkett is better than anyone. If anything, we have only said the Dele Alli does nothing we have not see in our youth already. I think you will find those are different arguments.

Lest we forget

nateevs:



Dele Alli does not have more talent than Lewis Baker. Anyone can take me up on this.

In fact, Dele Alli has no more talent than Jeremie Boga and Charlie Colkett. FACT! Do your research mate and you will find out Dele was recommended to Chelsea by Eddie Newton but Chelsea declined citing that he was not better than what we already have.

Instead of explicitly coming out to say so, you have couched that sentiment in an open ended statement. "Alli has no more talent that Jeremie Boga" - Of course, a valid inference could be made from this statement that Alli could actually have less talent than Boga. So please let us avoid playing with semantics. It's not like saying that Colkett and Alli have similar levels of talent is any less a ludicrous thing to say.

@Ibime your point has been noted and I can see your pov.